Do we think it will get to the point having no DOF hinders us?

[United Hobbit]

First go at starting a thread and I dont think there are similar but feel free to merge if there is one

Was pondering this last night and was wondering whether our reluctance to appoint DOF will eventually hinder us in terms of signing players, especially the high profile ones such as Sancho, who we have been heavily linked with but dont think we will be getting if this continues

Obviously you have multiple other factors such as personal preference of the players/ agents/ wages & contract packages/ Being in the CL etc

However when it comes down to a straight choice between clubs say us and someone like Arsenal/ Chelsea who I believe have one and are in similar positions to us, does anyone think the well publicised issues with our higher structure will end up putting off players/ their over powered agents? Would this be negated if we had a more experienced manager and does Ole's lack of reputation as a manager perhaps emphasise it?

Obviously we are still big in name and a big brand but how long can that alone continue to attract the players?

 

[hobbers]

I'd like us to put a proper DOF in place, if only to get Woodward away from the football side of things, but people need to stop getting obsessive tunnel vision around it. That's the sort of mindlessness that led us to appointing Ole full time.

A good DOF won't rescue us from a shit manager. A good DOF won't make the players more confident. Won't improve the manager's coaching. Won't improve our tactical flexibility during games.

Klopp didn't need a DOF to turn Liverpool into CL and (soon to be) Prem title winners. Having a good manager is more important than having a good DOF, which in turn is more important than having good owners.

 

[Skills]

I'd like us to put a proper DOF in place, if only to get Woodward away from the football side of things, but people need to stop getting obsessive tunnel vision around it. That's the sort of mindlessness that led us to appointing Ole full time.

A good DOF won't rescue us from a shit manager. A good DOF won't make the players more confident. Won't improve the manager's coaching. Won't improve our tactical flexibility during games.

Klopp didn't need a DOF to turn Liverpool into CL and (soon to be) Prem title winners. Having a good manager is more important than having a good DOF, which in turn is more important than having good owners.

Actually he will, by sacking him in a timely manner.

 

[Apokalips]

I'd like us to put a proper DOF in place, if only to get Woodward away from the football side of things, but people need to stop getting obsessive tunnel vision around it. That's the sort of mindlessness that led us to appointing Ole full time.

A good DOF won't rescue us from a shit manager. A good DOF won't make the players more confident. Won't improve the manager's coaching. Won't improve our tactical flexibility during games.

Klopp didn't need a DOF to turn Liverpool into CL and (soon to be) Prem title winners. Having a good manager is more important than having a good DOF, which in turn is more important than having good owners.

Exactly that! Not sure I can think of many DOFs that make up for a poor manager or makes a poor manager perform well. The fable of the DOF as this magical saviour is going to lead to disappointment.

We could do with one, but a great coach is the most important thing.

 

[Cassidy]

Exactly that! Not sure I can think of many DOFs that make up for a poor manager or makes a poor manager perform well. The fable of the DOF as this magical saviour is going to lead to disappointment.

We could do with one, but a great coach is the most important thing.

Given its their job to hire and fire a manager... well if they have a shite manager, maybe they are a shite DOF

 

[Catt]

Klopp didn't need a DOF to turn Liverpool into CL and (soon to be) Prem title winners. Having a good manager is more important than having a good DOF, which in turn is more important than having good owners.

This! You need a really good manager. You have that and the rest will fall into place.

 

[gajender]

Given its their job to hire and fire a manager... well if they have a shite manager, maybe they are a shite DOF

Not the right way to look at it , irrespective of structure at the club with or without DOF occasionally managers would fail it doesn't mean the whole process need to be abandoned in our case it's simply not working so we need to rethink the whole thing.

 

[BluesJr]

You act like it hasn't already.

 

[romufc]

I'd like us to put a proper DOF in place, if only to get Woodward away from the football side of things, but people need to stop getting obsessive tunnel vision around it. That's the sort of mindlessness that led us to appointing Ole full time.

A good DOF won't rescue us from a shit manager. A good DOF won't make the players more confident. Won't improve the manager's coaching. Won't improve our tactical flexibility during games.

Klopp didn't need a DOF to turn Liverpool into CL and (soon to be) Prem title winners. Having a good manager is more important than having a good DOF, which in turn is more important than having good owners.

Exactly, we keep going on about DoF as if it will change our fortunes when it will make the club run better but it won't change where we are.

DoF will not be coaching the players, and giving them team talks, the manager is failing to motivate a team.

You can all talk about the Glazers / Woodwards / lack of DoF behind our poor form BUT Newcastle are in the same boat yet last season they had a top manager and done well.

yesterday they looked better than us, don't be fooled and hide behind Woodward out because even if he goes a shit manager and crap coaching will still be an issue.

 

[Skills]

Exactly, we keep going on about DoF as if it will change our fortunes when it will make the club run better but it won't change where we are.

DoF will not be coaching the players, and giving them team talks, the manager is failing to motivate a team.

You can all talk about the Glazers / Woodwards / lack of DoF behind our poor form BUT Newcastle are in the same boat yet last season they had a top manager and done well.

yesterday they looked better than us, don't be fooled and hide behind Woodward out because even if he goes a shit manager and crap coaching will still be an issue.

But he will be in a position to do something about that though. Sack the manager if he's not getting enough out of the squad, and put someone more suitable in place. The board is too passive about making quick, decisive decisions.

Passiveness (which we're disgusting under the name of patience) is what's been killing us repeatedly.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

You act like it hasn't already.

This.

Really odd thread.

 

[jderbyshire]

I'd like us to put a proper DOF in place, if only to get Woodward away from the football side of things, but people need to stop getting obsessive tunnel vision around it. That's the sort of mindlessness that led us to appointing Ole full time.

A good DOF won't rescue us from a shit manager. A good DOF won't make the players more confident. Won't improve the manager's coaching. Won't improve our tactical flexibility during games.

Klopp didn't need a DOF to turn Liverpool into CL and (soon to be) Prem title winners. Having a good manager is more important than having a good DOF, which in turn is more important than having good owners.

He has an entire transfer committee working to get the right players in for his style, doesn't he??!

 

[romufc]

But he will be in a position to do something about that though. Sack the manager if he's not getting enough out of the squad, and put someone more suitable in place. The board is too passive about making quick, decisive decisions.

Passiveness (which we're disgusting under the name of patience) is what's been killing us repeatedly.

50% of the fans still want Ole in charge though..

I have said it in other posts, we are too nice as a club. We have to be ruthless.

Also, what makes you think the DoF will sack the manager quicker than Ed? If rumours were true and Rio was in line for DoF, i don't think he would have sacked ole yet.

 

[djembatheking]

As if we are ever getting a DOF .

 

[Cassidy]

Not the right way to look at it , irrespective of structure at the club with or without DOF occasionally managers would fail it doesn't mean the whole process need to be abandoned in our case it's simply not working so we need to rethink the whole thing.

Not what I was getting at. The point I was making is that saying a DOF doesn't rescue us from a shite manager, is entirely false. As a good DOF would fire a shite manager.

 

[Skills]

50% of the fans still want Ole in charge though..

I have said it in other posts, we are too nice as a club. We have to be ruthless.

Also, what makes you think the DoF will sack the manager quicker than Ed? If rumours were true and Rio was in line for DoF, i don't think he would have sacked ole yet.

Because if the managers poor performances starts to result in the squads quality being questioned (the squad who's composition he's responsible for), it'll eventually start putting his own position under risk.

It's all about accountability. You hold the manager accountable for results on the pitch with the group of players available at his disposal. The DOF is responsible for setting that expectation, as he's assembled (most of) the squad and he's chosen the manager. The DOF is accountable for assembling the right squad and picking the right manager for the group of players at the club.

 

[red thru&thru]

He has an entire transfer committee working to get the right players in for his style, doesn't he??!

Klopp doesn't need a DoF? Deary me. Yes, he has a committee. He worked with Zorc at Dortmund and he works with Edwards at Lfc.

To answer the OP, yes, we need a DoF. Not a tick box exercise DoF, an actual experienced and proven DoF is needed.

 

[Zlatattack]

We are already suffering from this. A DoF provides a football focus figurehead who is ultimately reponsible for all things football at the club. Under SAF we had a man who large parts of that role on himself because he could, he had the success to back up his decision making. Who was going to call up SAF?

Post his retirement we need that. Ed Woodward is too mixed with the business side to be that person (also knows FA about football). Our manager doesn't do what a DoF should do, there are people in the club that pick up those duties, but i think by having someone ultimately not in position to make the hard decisions, we're suffering death by comittee.

We had Moyes and his ideas, then we have LVG and the triangles, then Jose and the Bus and now we have counter attacking (apparently) Ole. During these changes the first team players have been changing, the tactics they train with are changing, look at the result of the first team.

Now imagine the impact we don't see. How do the under 23's train? what about the under 18's? do they use the same tactics, do they group up learning the triangles or 433 or 442? It helps if we have consistency. Of course you'll expect players to be able to adapt, but we need consistency in formations, style of play etc, throughout the age groups, through different managers. The DOF is meant to provide the long term oversight to ensure that.

 

[red thru&thru]

50% of the fans still want Ole in charge though..

I have said it in other posts, we are too nice as a club. We have to be ruthless.

Also, what makes you think the DoF will sack the manager quicker than Ed? If rumours were true and Rio was in line for DoF, i don't think he would have sacked ole yet.

Here in lies the problem We need a proven DoF, not a made up version of it.

 

[sullydnl]

Listening to Gary Neville speak the other night about how we have to stick with Solskjaer to restore identity and coherence to the squad, it occurred to me that a DOF would probably allow you to do that while also getting rid of managers who aren't up to the job.

So as far as I can see we, already are suffering from a lack of a DOF.

Genuine question: how many other top European clubs operate with the manager being the most senior figure at the club with experience in football?

 

[romufc]

Because if the managers poor performances starts to result in the squads quality being questioned (the squad who's composition he's responsible for), it'll eventually start putting his own position under risk.

It's all about accountability. You hold the manager accountable for results on the pitch with the group of players available at his disposal. The DOF is responsible for setting that expectation, as he's assembled (most of) the squad and he's chosen the manager. The DOF is accountable for assembling the right squad and picking the right manager for the group of players at the club.

But it is a bit over the top to think the DoF will fire a manager straight away. There are various permutations to that too as it will come off the DoF budget to pay off a manager and hire a new one.

Its pure speculation to think that an DoF would have fired Ole, what you could say is a DoF would have been alot more hesitant to hire him in the first place.

 

[romufc]

Here in lies the problem We need a proven DoF, not a made up version of it.

Agreed, but do you think Ed is capable of that?

 

[Cassidy]

It has already hindered us

 

[Skills]

Listening to Gary Neville speak the other night about how we had to stick with Solskjaer to restore identity and coherence to the squad, it occurred to me that a DOF would probably allow you to do that while also getting rid of managers who aren't up to the job.

So as far as I can see we, already are suffering from a lack of a DOF.

Genuine question: how many other top European clubs operate with the manager being the most senior figure at the club with experience in football?

I don't think the continental clubs have ever allowed managers that much influence.

 

[red thru&thru]

Agreed, but do you think Ed is capable of that?

NOPE, not one bit.

Why can he not get someone like Rangnick or Mitchell to come and help him? Why is he too proud to say, "guys, you are the experts. You have proven yourself. Please help resurrect the club. What do you need from me to do this?"

Is it Ed pride? Or is it instructions from the owners?

 

[Hal9000]

Think it's clear that even if we get a DoF, he won't be a traditional DoF. Woodward won't give up the control that he has in the matters a DoF would be responsible for.

 

[Skills]

But it is a bit over the top to think the DoF will fire a manager straight away. There are various permutations to that too as it will come off the DoF budget to pay off a manager and hire a new one.

Its pure speculation to think that an DoF would have fired Ole, what you could say is a DoF would have been alot more hesitant to hire him in the first place.

I don't think Ole lasts at any other European club with this kind of start (with the way last season ended). Surely there's a reason other clubs are more proactive than us?

 

[Skills]

Think it's clear that even if we get a DoF, he won't be a traditional DoF. Woodward won't give up the control that he has in the matters a DoF would be responsible for.

What control do you want Woodward to give up? Specific examples.

 

[Pexbo]

Yeah it might just get to that point.

 

[2 man midfield]

I half expected this to be a bump of a thread from 2012 or something.

I’d say we’re way past that.

 

[romufc]

NOPE, not one bit.

Why can he not get someone like Rangnick or Mitchell to come and help him? Why is he too proud to say, "guys, you are the experts. You have proven yourself. Please help resurrect the club. What do you need from me to do this?"

Is it Ed pride? Or is it instructions from the owners?

It is the question on everyone's lips. It can't be pride because he isnt from a football background, so no one expects him to do well in that respect anyway?

It must be from the owners.

 

[Lebowski]

Genuine question: how many other top European clubs operate with the manager being the most senior figure at the club with experience in football?

Virtually none. It's been the way continental clubs are run for decades. In fact, you don't even need to look at Europe's top sides- we are one of only three teams in the Premier League not to operate with a director of football/technical director. The other two are Sheffield United and Newcastle United.

This thread is weird. From the title I assumed it was a bump to an old thread from about 2009. I don't think you need to pose the thread title as a question... surely the last 7 years are proof enough that not having a footballing executive has held us back certainly ever since the Glazers bought the club?

 

[Skills]

NOPE, not one bit.

Why can he not get someone like Rangnick or Mitchell to come and help him? Why is he too proud to say, "guys, you are the experts. You have proven yourself. Please help resurrect the club. What do you need from me to do this?"

Is it Ed pride? Or is it instructions from the owners?

I think it's deeper than that. More like senior figures at the club uncomfortable at the idea of the club moving away from a manager central structure. Guys who have known just Alex Ferguson and Matt Busby type figures at the club.

A DOF makes the job easier for the glazers and Woodward. They can back off and just give him a budget to work to, and hold him accountable for delivering success.

 

[romufc]

I don't think Ole lasts at any other European club with this kind of start (with the way last season ended). Surely there's a reason other clubs are more proactive than us?

Then he should have goes sacked end of last season.

 

[red thru&thru]

I think it's deeper than that. More like senior figures at the club uncomfortable at the idea of the club moving away from a manager central structure. Guys who have known just Alex Ferguson and Matt Busby type figures at the club.

A DOF makes the job easier for the glazers and Woodward. They can back off and just give him a budget to work to, and hold him accountable for delivering success.

Really? Like who?

 

[devilo]

As if we are ever getting a DOF .

Exactly. The reason one hasn't been appointed yet is because there isn't a self respecting individual willing to accept the constraints that would be placed on them in that role. They'd be a DoF in name only, a figurehead if you will to make it look like we're doing the right things. The decision making and holding of the purse strings would still sit with spreadsheet Ed on behalf of our parasite like owners.

 

[hobbers]

He has an entire transfer committee working to get the right players in for his style, doesn't he??!

Yeah he does but in terms of the structure and power balance it's probably not all that different to ours. In this transfer committee the scouts are represented, the owners are represented, the financial and legal departments are represented, and obviously Klopp's input is key to it as well.

Similar sort of system that we have even if we don't call it a transfer committee, with Woodward, Judge, Ole, Bout and Lawlor all presumably having a role in transfers.

 

[sunama]

Exactly, we keep going on about DoF as if it will change our fortunes when it will make the club run better but it won't change where we are.

DoF will not be coaching the players, and giving them team talks, the manager is failing to motivate a team.

You can all talk about the Glazers / Woodwards / lack of DoF behind our poor form BUT Newcastle are in the same boat yet last season they had a top manager and done well.

yesterday they looked better than us, don't be fooled and hide behind Woodward out because even if he goes a shit manager and crap coaching will still be an issue.

But, what if we hire a DoF on the premise that his first task will be to replace the backroom staff and the manager? He can arrive, interview candidates and when he has a new team of backroom staff in place, he can fire our current manager and coaching team (who are useless) and install the new coaching team and manager.

The problem with the DoF, who has the power to sack a manager is that Woodward would never allow it. The guy is drunk on power and he will not relinquish it.

 

[romufc]

But, what if we hire a DoF on the premise that his first task will be to replace the backroom staff and the manager? He can arrive, interview candidates and when he has a new team of backroom staff in place, he can fire our current manager and coaching team (who are useless) and install the new coaching team and manager.

The problem with the DoF, who has the power to sack a manager is that Woodward would never allow it. The guy is drunk on power and he will not relinquish it.

I am sorry but I couldn't not but laugh. What you described there is way too organised for Manutd. We are not a proactive club. knowing us, poch would get sacked be out of a job for couple months get another job then sack ole and say.. there is no one out there to give the job to.

I agree, he needs to understand his limitations as a person.

 

[Sky1981]

Saf wont be what he is with a dof reigning him. Jose seems to lost his mojo without one.

If the dof comes in and says keep ole, you'd think he's crazy. Actually if he comes in and says sack ole half of you will still say he's too rash.

If our purchase is good. Fine. If it's bad, ed will still get the blame.

If we got zoch or anyone good as dof while keeping ole as the manager, our football would still be shit. The dof wont be incharge of tactical, if he did get involved he'd be undermining and meddling. Can you imagine if this happens to a good manager? It'll only hamper him to do his work.

If 5 years ago we appoint a dof and he says no to angel di maria (right decision) and decided to keep zaha, we'll call him glazer penny pinching puppet.

Basically, when you're shit everything and everyone is being blamed.

But between a good dof and a good manager, the later is a priority number 1