Domination of Football Matches - The next step for Manutd team

[Fahad Jawaid]

The best teams which are able to dominate games and win in style throughout my 25 years of watching football has always been structured around having at least 6 to 7 outfield players which are very good technically and are able to keep possession when pressed, plus able to interplay quickly in tight spaces against low blocks and create chances.

In my time the best football Manutd played was between 2006 to 2009, where we dominated the game and had the likes of Scholes, Carrick, Rio, Rooney, Ronaldo, Saha, Giggs, who were all very very good under pressure and could play through teams. Then the likes of Barca team with Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Busquets, Pedro, Villa, Alves which was littered with technically superior players. Madrid also had a period of sustained success with Modric, Kroos, Marcelo, Ramos, Ronaldo, Benzema, Bale.

City also had a lot of success with technically amazing players such as David Silva, Toure, Gundagon, De Bruyne, Aguero, Kompany etc. The kept up with the same formula when they won treble they had Rodri, Grealish, Stones, De Bruyne, Foden, Gundagon etc. One of the reasons why Arsenal are also doing well is because they have a good blend of technically neat players in Odegaard, Saka, Rice, Zubimendi, Saliba and Timber who are all excellent at keeping the ball, progressing with it and then winning corners of course.

Now looking at our team, I believe last season we signed good players attackingly in Mbeumo and Cunha, but we missed a trick, instead of going for players who were great technically in tight spaces and help us to dominate football, we went for players who are effective in large spaces and at counter attacking football, this has been our constant Achilles heel and problem with our recruitment for years. We never go for a player who has all these attributes as in technically great but also fast, we seem to find either one or another. I believe we should have gone for the likes of Eze or Pedro or Kudus (not necessarily these players but these types) who are excellent in tight spaces, fast and good interplay, which would have allowed us dominate more and be more effective against these teams sitting deep.

Our team has basically only two at most three players who are excellent at keeping the ball in Mainoo, Amad and Licha, this results in us being very ineffective against teams who give us the ball and ask us to breakdown (Westham, Palace or Everton etc) or even press us relentlessly (Newcastle). I have used recent examples because it gives us good idea because we are at least playing everybody in their best positions and resemble to a footballing side.

I think we can somewhat rectify the same problem by signing two midfielders and one full back which possess the same qualities (press resistant and excellent at keeping the ball and progressing with it), but we will still be flawed because our attackers will be main outliners and regardless of how good the midfield and defense are at keeping the ball and progressing, eventually in the final third the attackers have to connect with short passes in tight spaces where Cunha, Mbeumo and Bruno are very inconsistent and will result in constant turnover of the ball and us getting sucker punched at counter.

Now the dilemma we have for next manager is, shall we continue the counter attacking football type because our most recent signings and our best player is comfortable/effective with it. That may result in us being restricted to top 4 team and very good results against top sides but patchy results against bottom sides (basically Ole like football and top 4 finishes). Or with new possession based manager we shuffle the pack and sign LW who is very good technically and keeping he ball (Grealish clone basically at his best) and get two CMs and LB who are elite in press resistance and technically, carry only Bruno as a player who is likely to give away the ball, only then we can transition slowly from top 4 side to PL winning team.

 

[Hammondo]

The best teams which are able to dominate games and win in style throughout my 25 years of watching football has always been structured around having at least 6 to 7 outfield players which are very good technically and are able to keep possession when pressed, plus able to interplay quickly in tight spaces against low blocks and create chances.

In my time the best football Manutd played was between 2006 to 2009, where we dominated the game and had the likes of Scholes, Carrick, Rio, Rooney, Ronaldo, Saha, Giggs, who were all very very good under pressure and could play through teams. Then the likes of Barca team with Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Busquets, Pedro, Villa, Alves which was littered with technically superior players. Madrid also had a period of sustained success with Modric, Kroos, Marcelo, Ramos, Ronaldo, Benzema, Bale.

City also had a lot of success with technically amazing players such as David Silva, Toure, Gundagon, De Bruyne, Aguero, Kompany etc. The kept up with the same formula when they won treble they had Rodri, Grealish, Stones, De Bruyne, Foden, Gundagon etc. One of the reasons why Arsenal are also doing well is because they have a good blend of technically neat players in Odegaard, Saka, Rice, Zubimendi, Saliba and Timber who are all excellent at keeping the ball, progressing with it and then winning corners of course.

Now looking at our team, I believe last season we signed good players attackingly in Mbeumo and Cunha, but we missed a trick, instead of going for players who were great technically in tight spaces and help us to dominate football, we went for players who are effective in large spaces and at counter attacking football, this has been our constant Achilles heel and problem with our recruitment for years. We never go for a player who has all these attributes as in technically great but also fast, we seem to find either one or another. I believe we should have gone for the likes of Eze or Pedro or Kudus (not necessarily these players but these types) who are excellent in tight spaces, fast and good interplay, which would have allowed us dominate more and be more effective against these teams sitting deep.

Our team has basically only two at most three players who are excellent at keeping the ball in Mainoo, Amad and Licha, this results in us being very ineffective against teams who give us the ball and ask us to breakdown (Westham, Palace or Everton etc) or even press us relentlessly (Newcastle). I have used recent examples because it gives us good idea because we are at least playing everybody in their best positions and resemble to a footballing side.

I think we can somewhat rectify the same problem by signing two midfielders and one full back which possess the same qualities (press resistant and excellent at keeping the ball and progressing with it), but we will still be flawed because our attackers will be main outliners and regardless of how good the midfield and defense are at keeping the ball and progressing, eventually in the final third the attackers have to connect with short passes in tight spaces where Cunha, Mbeumo and Bruno are very inconsistent and will result in constant turnover of the ball and us getting sucker punched at counter.

Now the dilemma we have for next manager is, shall we continue the counter attacking football type because our most recent signings and our best player is comfortable/effective with it. That may result in us being restricted to top 4 team and very good results against top sides but patchy results against bottom sides (basically Ole like football and top 4 finishes). Or with new possession based manager we shuffle the pack and sign LW who is very good technically and keeping he ball (Grealish clone basically at his best) and get two CMs and LB who are elite in press resistance and technically, carry only Bruno as a player who is likely to give away the ball, only then we can transition slowly from top 4 side to PL winning team.

I can't stand the lack of technical ability we have in our team. Been a while since we bought a really technical attacker.

 

[mbapps]

We are a squad whose mindset is fourth is an acceptable season. Maybe the odd cup and next year...

We can't expect to dominate until this mindset is rooted out, but we don't have an insurmountable figure like Fergie to enforce subordination.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Midfielders that can control games, there's not many of them out there though.

 

[SirAF]

Midfielders that can control games, there's not many of them out there though.

Exactly this, which is why the summer window is so important.

 

[Fahad Jawaid]

Midfielders that can control games, there's not many of them out there though.

I am sure we can find somebody in Spain/France who are technically amazing coming through the ranks in smaller clubs, they have plethora of these players. But with how PL is moving towards set pieces and long balls, physicality and intensity, we may need to find somebody two players who are technically great, with great engines and physically imposing. In PL, Tonali, Bruno Guimares, Anderson and Baleba (Last season one) fits the bill. I really like the look of Wharton but he lacks the intensity and ground eating ability that others have and we may get over run.

 

[Fahad Jawaid]

I can't stand the lack of technical ability we have in our team. Been a while since we bought a really technical attacker.

I think outside Premier league, I really like the look of Nico Williams, he is not only a great one on one dribbler on the left, very good finisher and passer and technically very clean. Plus i think he has slightly stalled this season due to not getting the move to Barca, so we may have a chance to get him for reasonable amount.

 

[Hammondo]

I think outside Premier league, I really like the look of Nico Williams, he is not only a great one on one dribbler on the left, very good finisher and passer and technically very clean. Plus i think he has slightly stalled this season due to not getting the move to Barca, so we may have a chance to get him for reasonable amount.

You must have missed.

https://www.athletic-club.eus/en/ne...rward Nico Williams,increase by more than 50%.

I would say he's someone who really relies on their pace, he's not that technical, bit 1 dimensional.

 

[Champ]

We are a squad whose mindset is fourth is an acceptable season. Maybe the odd cup and next year...

We can't expect to dominate until this mindset is rooted out, but we don't have an insurmountable figure like Fergie to enforce subordination.

Do you know for a fact that our players only want fourth??

What a bizarre thing to say...

 

[AFIABM]

The best teams which are able to dominate games and win in style throughout my 25 years of watching football has always been structured around having at least 6 to 7 outfield players which are very good technically and are able to keep possession when pressed, plus able to interplay quickly in tight spaces against low blocks and create chances.

In my time the best football Manutd played was between 2006 to 2009, where we dominated the game and had the likes of Scholes, Carrick, Rio, Rooney, Ronaldo, Saha, Giggs, who were all very very good under pressure and could play through teams. Then the likes of Barca team with Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Busquets, Pedro, Villa, Alves which was littered with technically superior players. Madrid also had a period of sustained success with Modric, Kroos, Marcelo, Ramos, Ronaldo, Benzema, Bale.

City also had a lot of success with technically amazing players such as David Silva, Toure, Gundagon, De Bruyne, Aguero, Kompany etc. The kept up with the same formula when they won treble they had Rodri, Grealish, Stones, De Bruyne, Foden, Gundagon etc. One of the reasons why Arsenal are also doing well is because they have a good blend of technically neat players in Odegaard, Saka, Rice, Zubimendi, Saliba and Timber who are all excellent at keeping the ball, progressing with it and then winning corners of course.

Now looking at our team, I believe last season we signed good players attackingly in Mbeumo and Cunha, but we missed a trick, instead of going for players who were great technically in tight spaces and help us to dominate football, we went for players who are effective in large spaces and at counter attacking football, this has been our constant Achilles heel and problem with our recruitment for years. We never go for a player who has all these attributes as in technically great but also fast, we seem to find either one or another. I believe we should have gone for the likes of Eze or Pedro or Kudus (not necessarily these players but these types) who are excellent in tight spaces, fast and good interplay, which would have allowed us dominate more and be more effective against these teams sitting deep.

Our team has basically only two at most three players who are excellent at keeping the ball in Mainoo, Amad and Licha, this results in us being very ineffective against teams who give us the ball and ask us to breakdown (Westham, Palace or Everton etc) or even press us relentlessly (Newcastle). I have used recent examples because it gives us good idea because we are at least playing everybody in their best positions and resemble to a footballing side.

I think we can somewhat rectify the same problem by signing two midfielders and one full back which possess the same qualities (press resistant and excellent at keeping the ball and progressing with it), but we will still be flawed because our attackers will be main outliners and regardless of how good the midfield and defense are at keeping the ball and progressing, eventually in the final third the attackers have to connect with short passes in tight spaces where Cunha, Mbeumo and Bruno are very inconsistent and will result in constant turnover of the ball and us getting sucker punched at counter.

Now the dilemma we have for next manager is, shall we continue the counter attacking football type because our most recent signings and our best player is comfortable/effective with it. That may result in us being restricted to top 4 team and very good results against top sides but patchy results against bottom sides (basically Ole like football and top 4 finishes). Or with new possession based manager we shuffle the pack and sign LW who is very good technically and keeping he ball (Grealish clone basically at his best) and get two CMs and LB who are elite in press resistance and technically, carry only Bruno as a player who is likely to give away the ball, only then we can transition slowly from top 4 side to PL winning team.

Agreed, it is bizarre how the fanbase can see this clearly, but the professionals in charge for over a decade cannot, and continually target players who don't resolve this issue.

 

[bosnian_red]

Making the jump from being a good top 4 team to competing for the title is the hardest step in football. We don't need to dominate possession or play for that really, we don't need to be an elite pressing side. That's just "a way to play". There are other ways to control games though and we need to learn how to do that better. But it's easier to gradually adjust to that once we're steady as a decent team. Needs a lot more quality throughout the team, and then needs a manager capable of keeping that level too/elevate them

 

[NLunited]

The style doesn’t matter really: you pick one and do it well.

The key is mentality: we lack the will to impose ourselves. There‘s different strategies to control a game, but you can‘t do it without the physical attributes and the mental strength.

We were lacking both against Newcastle. It‘s interesting to see what Carrick does now.

 

[golden_blunder]

The thing is that Manchester United are a transition team not a possession team. Always have been for as long as I can remember. LVG flirted with trying to make us a possession team and we were all bored as feck. Transition teams can be highly exciting and successful if done correctly with players that can take on their opponents at speed. This narrative that we struggle against low blocks is not in context because most teams struggle when the others park the bus. But we can beat those teams

It’s more the mentality that we need to address, a constant will to win your little battles throughout the pitch. Consistency

 

[Lash]

Making the jump from being a good top 4 team to competing for the title is the hardest step in football. We don't need to dominate possession or play for that really, we don't need to be an elite pressing side. That's just "a way to play". There are other ways to control games though and we need to learn how to do that better. But it's easier to gradually adjust to that once we're steady as a decent team. Needs a lot more quality throughout the team, and then needs a manager capable of keeping that level too/elevate them

Yep, we need to decide what we want to hang out hat on. You can see with Arsenal what it was, it's built on the rest defence and set piece dominance. Pep's idea was always built on possession, Klopp's heavy metal football was on high turnovers. We need to decide our version of it and then you can recruit for it. Our foundation is a bit wooly when you say "the United way" and "taking risks".

Edit: that "you" wasn't aimed at you by the way. Was a generic comment on what we tend to hear.

 

[bosnian_red]

The thing is that Manchester United are a transition team not a possession team. Always have been for as long as I can remember. LVG flirted with trying to make us a possession team and we were all bored as feck. Transition teams can be highly exciting and successful if done correctly with players that can take on their opponents at speed. This narrative that we struggle against low blocks is not in context because most teams struggle when the others park the bus. But we can beat those teams

It’s more the mentality that we need to address, a constant will to win your little battles throughout the pitch. Consistency

Yeah. The "struggle to beat park the bus teams" applies to every decent team, and those who consistently overcome it tend to be title challengers. It's usually a quality thing where you have a balanced attacking threat on both wings (of high enough level) to make it difficult to defend against. Those who don't deal with this issue tend to not even be good enough where teams have to really focus on defending deeply. So at least we're back at this point now.

The "control" people usually confuse with dominate possession. Not at all. It's learning how to control in your own way on and off the ball. Know when to speed up the pace of the game and when to make it chaotic, or how to control it without the ball so teams don't put you under real pressure. Everton for example put us under pressure with too many corners despite not actually making chances. We didn't keep it balanced enough with posing a real counter threat where, if teams try to overcommit, we'll just kill them on the break. Will come with time and better quality players, confidence, mentality, all that

 

[Kelly15]

If dominating means just having more possession like city them I'm out. I prefer fast flair flowing attacking football. Not possession till the opposition falls asleep then attack. To me when you have 70% possession but only have a few shots on net its defensive football it its worst. They should have a shot clock like NBA to get ride of that. Pep has ruined football from the beautiful game with flair to robotic possession football. 10 yards passes. No risk. No fun football.

 

[Fahad Jawaid]

Making the jump from being a good top 4 team to competing for the title is the hardest step in football. We don't need to dominate possession or play for that really, we don't need to be an elite pressing side. That's just "a way to play". There are other ways to control games though and we need to learn how to do that better. But it's easier to gradually adjust to that once we're steady as a decent team. Needs a lot more quality throughout the team, and then needs a manager capable of keeping that level too/elevate them

I will take City as an example to our team, they regularly either win the title or finish at 2nd spot. If you look at their team man to man, you would not find our team massively inferior to their side, in fact when we played against them we wiped the floor with them, plus they regularly lose against big teams as well. The biggest difference is they make light weight of mid to lower teams. Their attacking players and midfield are technically far superior and more often than not, they put them to the sword.

You compare Cherki and Mbeumo or Foden with Cunha, one massive difference that stands out is the technical ability in close spaces, we need to bridge this gap to break down resolute defenses, which will propel us from top 4 to league competing side.

 

[Ole'sgunnarwin]

Does any team dominate games anymore?

 

[sullydnl]

The top six teams in the league are also the top six for average possession, and the bottom three teams are the bottom three for average possession. Because the amount of possession you have is a function of quality as much as style of play. We already have more of the ball than 70% of the league, simply because we're better than 70% of the league.

In other words when we talk about top teams being possession-based versus transition-based, that's almost entirely relative to how they play against other similar quality sides. Against weaker sides, which is most of the league, you will tend face games in which you are the dominant side in possession regardless of which notional approach you have.

If we are a good enough team to challenge for league titles consistently, we won't be able to play counter-attacking football against all but a handful of the other teams in the league, so will have to get better at maximising advantage from possession. Which means keeping more of it than we currently do and converting it to advantage more consistently. That's not something you can opt out of by being relatively transition focused.

 

[Fahad Jawaid]

The top six teams in the league are also the top six for average possession. Because the amount of possession you have is a function of superior quality as much as style of play. We already have more of the ball than 70% of the league, simply because we're better than 70% of the league.

In other words when we talk about top teams being possession-based versus transition-based, that's almost entirely relative to how they play against other similar quality sides. Against weaker sides, which is most of the league, you will tend face games in which you are the dominant side in possession regardless of which notional approach you have.

If we are a good enough team to challenge for league titles consistently, we won't be able to play counter-attacking football against all but a handful of the other teams in the league, so will have to get better at maximising advantage from possession. Which means keeping more of it than we currently do and converting it to advantage more consistently. That's not something you can opt out of by being relatively transition focused.

Even if we have possession we are far from effective with it. We barely have matches against teams where we create chance after chance and absolutely maul any opposition, most of our matches are close wins by a goal. For a dominant win, you need to have prolonged spells in the half of other teams, our attacks are built up patiently from the back till middle where we generally keep the ball well (hence the higher possession %) and then in attack where the close interplay and creation of chances happen, either Mbeumo will have a poor touch or poor hold up play , or Bruno will play a very low percentage pass or Cunha will take a very long touch and give the ball away, resulting is us being countered.

The very top teams, will allow very few high level chances to oppositions and almost strangle them, because they do not lose the ball carelessly, as their attackers are very refined on the ball with superior technical ability. This is where as a team we need to improve, I do not see this being improved without additions.

 

[sullydnl]

Even if we have possession we are far from effective with it. We barely have matches against teams where we create chance after chance and absolutely maul any opposition, most of our matches are close wins by a goal. For a dominant win, you need to have prolonged spells in the half of other teams, our attacks are built up patiently from the back till middle where we generally keep the ball well (hence the higher possession %) and then in attack where the close interplay and creation of chances happen, either Mbeumo will have a poor touch or poor hold up play , or Bruno will play a very low percentage pass or Cunha will take a very long touch and give the ball away, resulting is us being countered.

The very top teams, will allow very few high level chances to oppositions and almost strangle them, because they do not lose the ball carelessly, as their attackers are very refined on the ball with superior technical ability. This is where as a team we need to improve, I do not see this being improved without additions.

I agree.

My point is that discussion above about not wanting to be a Guardiola-esque possession side, instead being more transition focused, is completely irrelevant.

Whether you're a notionally possession or a notionally transition focused side, if you intend to challenge for league titles you will spend most league games playing with more of the ball against weaker teams regardless. That's a dynamic that is unavoidable.

Which in turn means you have to be able to dominate possession while maximising the advantage you get from it, otherwise you won't consistently get the necessary points from those games against weaker teams. You'll still have a relatively high amount of possession, you just won't be turning it into results.

Whereas some of the posts above make it sound like dominating posession is an optional requirement, rather than something elite transition-based teams still have to do in the large majority of their games.

 

[RedRocket08]

United (Madrid too to an extent and Liverpool in the recent Klopp era) was more of a transitional team in our golden years - Physicality, devastating counters (often against the run of play), winning balls all over the pitch and a bit of silky inter-play when needed to break down a parked bus (We did have more of the ball in those games). I do see a lot of that with Carrick right now, and personally enjoy it a lot more than the Barca/Arsenal/City style of football.

What's missing is that maturity/mentality/spirit (Whatever you want to call it) to consistently:

a) Finish games off when we're clearly at an advantage (e.g. Newcastle)
b) Come back from losing/drawing positions and hang on (Which we have done under Carrick a few times tbf)

We have a good team at United, but when our top goal scorers are having an off day - Our fringe/support players can't step up and make a difference (e.g. Like a Park, Fletch or Carrick at times, Nani, O'Shea etc.) + the experienced guys in our team can't force the issue and turn the tide of a match (e.g. like a Keane, Cantona, Bruce etc.) consistently enough. Emphasis on the word consistently here because we're doing it some games but not in all games.

Under Fergie - We'd go in expecting to win it (We said the match was often won before the ball was kicked back then), oppo would go up a couple of goals (surprising themselves too) and we hit them right back and took the game (Often through the contributions of our support / senior players) - And we did this constantly. Real Madrid in the Mou/Zidane/Ancelotti era did this and Liverpool too under Klopp regardless of the strength of opposition they faced.

Mentality/maturity wise - We're not consistent enough just yet to do it over 38 games, let alone 60+ and we'll only get better at this if we push to finish 3rd/2nd over the next couple of seasons, and experience that disappointment of missing out on titles (a la Arsenal this season).

 

[NLunited]

It’s more the mentality that we need to address, a constant will to win your little battles throughout the pitch. Consistency

That‘s it, I would hammer on that as a coach. I think the managers we‘ve had have tried.

We need more fighters/leaders in the team. Martinez is a big miss for that as well.

 

[Theonas]

The thing is that Manchester United are a transition team not a possession team. Always have been for as long as I can remember. LVG flirted with trying to make us a possession team and we were all bored as feck. Transition teams can be highly exciting and successful if done correctly with players that can take on their opponents at speed. This narrative that we struggle against low blocks is not in context because most teams struggle when the others park the bus. But we can beat those teams

It’s more the mentality that we need to address, a constant will to win your little battles throughout the pitch. Consistency

The only thing acceptable for a club the size and resources of Manchester United is to be where City, Liverpool, PSG, Barcelona, Bayern, etc ... have been the past 5 to 10 years. I think we all agree on that. Not a single team on that list at their best was not dominant on the ball and playing on the front foot under a strict tactical and positional regime by a very tactical hands on coach. The styles differ of course from Klopp to Pep but the emphasis is on being the protagonist of the game, and not reactive. If Manchester United reach those highs of being competitive year in year out at the top, we would be the first one to do it in over 10 years without being tactically well drilled in a pro active system that dominates the ball and territory. Even the last great club standing that prioritised man management and minimum tactical obsession is struggling now to keep up and they do boast 2 or 3 Balon d'Or caliber of players in Mbappé, Vinicius and Bellingham.

 

[Theonas]

United (Madrid too to an extent and Liverpool in the recent Klopp era) was more of a transitional team in our golden years - Physicality, devastating counters (often against the run of play), winning balls all over the pitch and a bit of silky inter-play when needed to break down a parked bus (We did have more of the ball in those games). I do see a lot of that with Carrick right now, and personally enjoy it a lot more than the Barca/Arsenal/City style of football.

What's missing is that maturity/mentality/spirit (Whatever you want to call it) to consistently:

a) Finish games off when we're clearly at an advantage (e.g. Newcastle)
b) Come back from losing/drawing positions and hang on (Which we have done under Carrick a few times tbf)

We have a good team at United, but when our top goal scorers are having an off day - Our fringe/support players can't step up and make a difference (e.g. Like a Park, Fletch or Carrick at times, Nani, O'Shea etc.) + the experienced guys in our team can't force the issue and turn the tide of a match (e.g. like a Keane, Cantona, Bruce etc.) consistently enough. Emphasis on the word consistently here because we're doing it some games but not in all games.

Under Fergie - We'd go in expecting to win it (We said the match was often won before the ball was kicked back then), oppo would go up a couple of goals (surprising themselves too) and we hit them right back and took the game (Often through the contributions of our support / senior players) - And we did this constantly. Real Madrid in the Mou/Zidane/Ancelotti era did this and Liverpool too under Klopp regardless of the strength of opposition they faced.

Mentality/maturity wise - We're not consistent enough just yet to do it over 38 games, let alone 60+ and we'll only get better at this if we push to finish 3rd/2nd over the next couple of seasons, and experience that disappointment of missing out on titles (a la Arsenal this season).

Maybe it's just semantics but I don't think a team that had a line as high as Liverpool's under Klopp can be ever called a transitional team. Looking at their possession stats is also another indicator that they were far from it. Under Sir Alex the styles were not as defined as they would become post Pep. It didn't matter as much before Pep as most teams would adapt tactically making no team supremely good at possession, pressing and positional game as they would from the '10s onwards. It is this new emphasis that made it impossible for any club to keep up unless they invest similarity in the tactical organisation. Real were the exception of course but even they, struggle for consistency in the league and have that magic like hold on the CL, as well as being the only club in the world who can attract as many Balon d'Or winners to play for them.

 

[golden_blunder]

The only thing acceptable for a club the size and resources of Manchester United is to be where City, Liverpool, PSG, Barcelona, Bayern, etc ... have been the past 5 to 10 years. I think we all agree on that. Not a single team on that list at their best was not dominant on the ball and playing on the front foot under a strict tactical and positional regime by a very tactical hands on coach. The styles differ of course from Klopp to Pep but the emphasis is on being the protagonist of the game, and not reactive. If Manchester United reach those highs of being competitive year in year out at the top, we would be the first one to do it in over 10 years without being tactically well drilled in a pro active system that dominates the ball and territory. Even the last great club standing that prioritised man management and minimum tactical obsession is struggling now to keep up and they do boast 2 or 3 Balon d'Or caliber of players in Mbappé, Vinicius and Bellingham.

I’d argue that Liverpool under Klopp were a transition team. Robertson and TAA would get the ball forward as quickly as possible to Salah and Mane and hit the opposition hard and fast. Their midfield existed as hod carriers

 

[DRJosh]

I really don’t care how we play as long as we win. If we can beat mid-table sides consistently that’s progress, even if they are ugly wins. United have in recent times never been a possession based team. And the way the game is going, only a few teams with deep pockets can afford to secure highly technical players and master passers across the pitch. We need to adapt to what we have and win.

 

[Theonas]

I’d argue that Liverpool under Klopp were a transition team. Robertson and TAA would get the ball forward as quickly as possible to Salah and Mane and hit the opposition hard and fast. Their midfield existed as hod carriers

As I replied to the other post, maybe it's just semantics but I can't call a team with a line as high as theirs transitional. Van Dijk was stood almost at the half way line most the time. Their possession stats also tell a different story. The countered quick and with pace but they dominated the ball. Their legendary games against City look nothing like say ours against Arsenal in the late '00s. They went at City and it was two heavyweights going at it. But if you define that as counter attacking, then fair enough, we still would a very strong tactician in that German mold that can drill in the positional rules of that highly synchronized pressing because that most definitely was not just the vibes and good feelings that Ole or Carrick bring.

 

[ifightdragons]

The only thing acceptable for a club the size and resources of Manchester United is to be where City, Liverpool, PSG, Barcelona, Bayern, etc ... have been the past 5 to 10 years. I think we all agree on that. Not a single team on that list at their best was not dominant on the ball and playing on the front foot under a strict tactical and positional regime by a very tactical hands on coach. The styles differ of course from Klopp to Pep but the emphasis is on being the protagonist of the game, and not reactive. If Manchester United reach those highs of being competitive year in year out at the top, we would be the first one to do it in over 10 years without being tactically well drilled in a pro active system that dominates the ball and territory. Even the last great club standing that prioritised man management and minimum tactical obsession is struggling now to keep up and they do boast 2 or 3 Balon d'Or caliber of players in Mbappé, Vinicius and Bellingham.

Excellent post.

You are spot on.

 

[sullydnl]

I’d argue that Liverpool under Klopp were a transition team. Robertson and TAA would get the ball forward as quickly as possible to Salah and Mane and hit the opposition hard and fast. Their midfield existed as hod carriers

They were a transition-focused team. But they were also 2nd or 3rd for average possession in the league in the seasons they finished 1st or 2nd.

Being transition-focused doesn't remove the need to be dominant in possession if you want to compete for the league consistently. It just means you're transition-focused relative to the other best teams, all of whom are still expected to dominate possession against the majority of the league.

 

[justsomebloke]

The thing is that Manchester United are a transition team not a possession team. Always have been for as long as I can remember. LVG flirted with trying to make us a possession team and we were all bored as feck. Transition teams can be highly exciting and successful if done correctly with players that can take on their opponents at speed. This narrative that we struggle against low blocks is not in context because most teams struggle when the others park the bus. But we can beat those teams

It’s more the mentality that we need to address, a constant will to win your little battles throughout the pitch. Consistency

I would also question the "struggle against low block teams" a bit - at least , I think it has been quite a bit exaggerated for quite a while. For much of the OGS period, for example, we got a higher proportion of our points against lower half teams than the other top teams did. For last season I haven't done the actual maths, but we clearly got most of our points against lower half sides.

 

[justsomebloke]

The best teams which are able to dominate games and win in style throughout my 25 years of watching football has always been structured around having at least 6 to 7 outfield players which are very good technically and are able to keep possession when pressed, plus able to interplay quickly in tight spaces against low blocks and create chances.

In my time the best football Manutd played was between 2006 to 2009, where we dominated the game and had the likes of Scholes, Carrick, Rio, Rooney, Ronaldo, Saha, Giggs, who were all very very good under pressure and could play through teams. Then the likes of Barca team with Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Busquets, Pedro, Villa, Alves which was littered with technically superior players. Madrid also had a period of sustained success with Modric, Kroos, Marcelo, Ramos, Ronaldo, Benzema, Bale.

City also had a lot of success with technically amazing players such as David Silva, Toure, Gundagon, De Bruyne, Aguero, Kompany etc. The kept up with the same formula when they won treble they had Rodri, Grealish, Stones, De Bruyne, Foden, Gundagon etc. One of the reasons why Arsenal are also doing well is because they have a good blend of technically neat players in Odegaard, Saka, Rice, Zubimendi, Saliba and Timber who are all excellent at keeping the ball, progressing with it and then winning corners of course.

Now looking at our team, I believe last season we signed good players attackingly in Mbeumo and Cunha, but we missed a trick, instead of going for players who were great technically in tight spaces and help us to dominate football, we went for players who are effective in large spaces and at counter attacking football, this has been our constant Achilles heel and problem with our recruitment for years. We never go for a player who has all these attributes as in technically great but also fast, we seem to find either one or another. I believe we should have gone for the likes of Eze or Pedro or Kudus (not necessarily these players but these types) who are excellent in tight spaces, fast and good interplay, which would have allowed us dominate more and be more effective against these teams sitting deep.

Our team has basically only two at most three players who are excellent at keeping the ball in Mainoo, Amad and Licha, this results in us being very ineffective against teams who give us the ball and ask us to breakdown (Westham, Palace or Everton etc) or even press us relentlessly (Newcastle). I have used recent examples because it gives us good idea because we are at least playing everybody in their best positions and resemble to a footballing side.

I think we can somewhat rectify the same problem by signing two midfielders and one full back which possess the same qualities (press resistant and excellent at keeping the ball and progressing with it), but we will still be flawed because our attackers will be main outliners and regardless of how good the midfield and defense are at keeping the ball and progressing, eventually in the final third the attackers have to connect with short passes in tight spaces where Cunha, Mbeumo and Bruno are very inconsistent and will result in constant turnover of the ball and us getting sucker punched at counter.

Now the dilemma we have for next manager is, shall we continue the counter attacking football type because our most recent signings and our best player is comfortable/effective with it. That may result in us being restricted to top 4 team and very good results against top sides but patchy results against bottom sides (basically Ole like football and top 4 finishes). Or with new possession based manager we shuffle the pack and sign LW who is very good technically and keeping he ball (Grealish clone basically at his best) and get two CMs and LB who are elite in press resistance and technically, carry only Bruno as a player who is likely to give away the ball, only then we can transition slowly from top 4 side to PL winning team.

Good argument, well presented. If I have a bone to pick, it's how you view Bruno. Sure he's great on the transition, but he's also great in constrained spaces and in established attack around the opponent box. Look at his goal involvements and his consistency across seasons for that aspect, look at how much of what we create in that setting he is involved in. You can't succeed as a top team only through an ability to keep the ball, you also need the things that he brings (and which Eze, Kudrus or Pedro don't, at anywhere near the same level).

 

[KStandBarmyArmy1993]

There's a million different ways to win football matches. Fergie proved that.

On a wider point, with the insane amount of matches now, the key for our future success is essentially going to be having a huge squad. You're going to need two "first choice" options in every position to perform well in multiple competitions.

 

[Marcus]

The thing is that Manchester United are a transition team not a possession team. Always have been for as long as I can remember. LVG flirted with trying to make us a possession team and we were all bored as feck. Transition teams can be highly exciting and successful if done correctly with players that can take on their opponents at speed. This narrative that we struggle against low blocks is not in context because most teams struggle when the others park the bus. But we can beat those teams

It’s more the mentality that we need to address, a constant will to win your little battles throughout the pitch. Consistency

I agree. We are not a possession team. It doesn't work for us and I hate that playing style. Flying wingers and counter-attacking was always our game.

 

[romanian_fan]

I don't think there's any team in the world now that dominates games, maybe Munich in Germany but that's a farmer's league anyway.

The next step for United is to hire some players who can stop a ball, pass a ball along with a tactically good and experienced manager.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Some don't realize that all the best sides in the past decade were very good at possession and playing on the front foot. Absorbing pressure in a low/mid block and counter attacking constantly vs other top sides caps your ceiling. We should aim to be proactive on the ball and not reactive as a giant club.

No one is saying we have to be dominant akin to Pep's Barcelona in possession, but if you want to challenge for the CL and Premier League, you have to be a very good side in possession.

People keep referencing the Liverpool side under Klopp, but they were a very good side playing on the front foot and at possession. They had plenty of games vs City where they almost matched them in possession.

 

[RedSky]

We've neglected our midfield for decades, really do mean that too. Probably close to 20 years since we had a top draw midfield.

 

[Wolfbot]

I do think it's so much a style of play issue that's holding us back, and probably not as much of a technical issue on the ball as much as people think (there are teams with probably technically less able players that player better/more effective football).

I feel like as a club we've largely overlooked the importance of football intelligence when recruiting. We generally don't seem to have many players who make the right choices in terms of where to run and when, when to play a simple pass vs a difficult pass picking the right time to recycle the ball vs when to take their man on / put in a cross. When to get right vs when to drop off.

I'd say Martinez is an intelligent footballer. Bruno and Casemiro clearly have great vision, but I don't think either are consistent enough in choosing the right option at the right time, hence the often split opinions on them despite their ability to make a difference.

There's very few players at the club that I think stand out in terms of making the best choices in the game more often or not, and that's basically why are performances don't look great from an attacking perspectives. We have players with ability, so when the choices do end up being the right ones, we have a good chance of getting a goal, but mostly we don't make good choice in terms of off the ball movement, weight and speed of pass etc.

In my opinion, that's how you dominate a football match. It doesn't so much matter the set up, and yes you need a fair amount of technical ability, fitness, strength, all these things contribute, but you can have all that and still not 'dominate' if the majority of the team aren't clever enough to make good decisions and execute them most of the time.

 

[Berggy20913]

Passing and technical ability is just part of it now a days. When you have a league full of full international defenders and midfielders on every team, you have to do so much more than just knock the ball around. There needs to be intensity and purpose to move the other team around and get them out of their shape, which requires our players to constantly be on the move and also be smart and patient with the ball. More importantly, and this is an overlooked part of how Pep's team control games, you need a relentless and well organized counter press to win the ball back quickly when moves break down. As a collective the work rate and discipline in the sides we've seen over the years have been poor to inconsistent at best. We won't control games until this changes no matter who the manager is.

 

[Fahad Jawaid]

Passing and technical ability is just part of it now a days. When you have a league full of full international defenders and midfielders on every team, you have to do so much more than just knock the ball around. There needs to be intensity and purpose to move the other team around and get them out of their shape, which requires our players to constantly be on the move and also be smart and patient with the ball. More importantly, and this is an overlooked part of how Pep's team control games, you need a relentless and well organized counter press to win the ball back quickly when moves break down. As a collective the work rate and discipline in the sides we've seen over the years have been poor to inconsistent at best. We won't control games until this changes no matter who the manager is.

I think the counter pressing style has now been reduced throughout the league. But that style of play only works with certain profile of players who are amazing at keeping the ball, because if you keep giving it away like we would do because we do not press such press resistant players, it would just result in our players getting knackered and injuries will pile up (I think the same happened with Ole, after his initial burst of great results).

Then we tried to implement a similar style with Ten Haag and tbh we were good at getting the ball higher up the pitch, but we were just terrible at finishing chances, retaining the ball or our press was not coordinated at all, leaving acres of space in behind the midfield.