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2020-21 Performances


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Borys

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He was completely ignored tbh. Bruno make things happen but he just don't see this guy or his runs. Very weird.
From what I've seen, it's similar for the Netherlands. He roams around but hardly involved. His best impact is a brilliant touch or catching a deflected strike, but we shouldn't expect him to run games.

He is a better player than Matic, Mata or McTominay for sure.
Care to explain why you think so? Because in my opinion, neither of them is direct competition for Donny.

I think Manchester United was the absolute wrong move for him and his career at this point imo.
It's yet to be seen if it was a right move for United. I don't know what Ole sees in him, or what is the plan to use him.

Not worried about his game time though, especially with Pogba out.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Donny & Mata are almost similar. Both are making good run and always in a good position to be threat in the final third. Both also physically not strong, not quick and likes to play link up. The difference is that Mata has playmaking ability which put him over Donny in pecking order right now while Donny is not playmaker.

We need more playmaking ability for more balance since we only have Bruno to rely on so it makes sense why the manager went to Mata over Donny but the issue here is that Mata is inconsistent and he offered nothing creative from the Istanbul, Everton & West Brom game. And he can’t score goals either when he gets himself in good position in front of the goal to score. What Mata offers in our last two league games was just off ball movement and keep the ball going which something Donny offers. May be we can start experimenting Donny on the right if Greenwood is unavailable.
 

VP89

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Great statement... Cavani is also better at football than Maguire, should he start as CB?
Great statement. VDB is capable of a box to box, and a 10, and he can arguably drift from RW better than the current option who isn't a right winger anyway.

Nice try on the analogy but you are comparing apples with pears to force an odd narrative.
 

romufc

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Great statement. VDB is capable of a box to box, and a 10, and he can arguably drift from RW better than the current option who isn't a right winger anyway.

Nice try on the analogy but you are comparing apples with pears to force an odd narrative.
Can you show me clips of games where Donny played as a RW?

Mata played RW numerous times under different managers too.

Finally, Donny played box to box Vs Istanbul and had a shocker off the ball, nowhere to be seen defensively, same cannot be said about McTominay or Fred..

So you are comparing apples to Oranges doesnt help the narrative either.
 

VP89

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Can you show me clips of games where Donny played as a RW?

Mata played RW numerous times under different managers too.
Mata is not a right winger, and he does not adapt to the role well. Saying we might as well play Donny there is by no means some shit suggestion like having Lukaku as CB. Have a word with yourself - Mata is a 10 who adjusted to right side himself, you're saying Donny can't do similar? Christ.

It's like someone saying "no lets keep Martial on the left wing because he's never been a striker, so he can never do a good job there".
Finally, Donny played box to box Vs Istanbul and had a shocker off the ball, nowhere to be seen defensively, same cannot be said about McTominay or Fred..

So you are comparing apples to Oranges doesnt help the narrative either.
You are evidently misled, he was the only player that actually played decent enough. He had second highest votes for our player of the match (behind Luke Shaw) on this caf, MEN had him as the highest rated midfielder (out of a shit bunch, he was the least shite).

No one is comparing apples to oranges, you have knowledgeable dutch fans here that say he is capable of a box to box, and a 10, but not a holding midfielder role. This idea that he can't adapt to a right wing spot (like mata did from the 10) or can't play well at box to box is a pile of absolute made up garbage.
 

romufc

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Mata is not a right winger, and he does not adapt to the role well. Saying we might as well play Donny there is by no means some shit suggestion like having Lukaku as CB. Have a word with yourself - Mata is a 10 who adjusted to right side himself, you're saying Donny can't do similar? Christ.

It's like someone saying "no lets keep Martial on the left wing because he's never been a striker, so he can never do a good job there".

You are evidently misled, he was the only player that actually played decent enough. He had second highest votes for our player of the match (behind Luke Shaw) on this caf, MEN had him as the highest rated midfielder (out of a shit bunch, he was the least shite).

No one is comparing apples to oranges, you have knowledgeable dutch fans here that say he is capable of a box to box, and a 10, but not a holding midfielder role. This idea that he can't adapt to a right wing spot (like mata did from the 10) or can't play well at box to box is a pile of absolute made up garbage.
Again, what evidence have you got that he can play RW? None.

Mata started playing LW at Valencia, go have a look instead of telling me to have a word with myself. So no, Mata was a winger who adjusted himself to play the 10 not the other way around, get your facts right.

Yes, the reason most people on here voted him was because he was the best out of a bad bunch, as a box to box you need to have output attacking and defending, people saw his 90% pass accuracy and voted him MOTM when in actual fact he was out of position throughout the whole game.

As the box to box, you are meant to help out defensively yet he had minimal defensive actions.

Finally, I never said he cannot adapt as an 8, I said he cannot play wing which is where you want him.
 

VP89

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Again, what evidence have you got that he can play RW? None.

Mata started playing LW at Valencia, go have a look instead of telling me to have a word with myself. So no, Mata was a winger who adjusted himself to play the 10 not the other way around, get your facts right.

Yes, the reason most people on here voted him was because he was the best out of a bad bunch, as a box to box you need to have output attacking and defending, people saw his 90% pass accuracy and voted him MOTM when in actual fact he was out of position throughout the whole game.

As the box to box, you are meant to help out defensively yet he had minimal defensive actions.

Finally, I never said he cannot adapt as an 8, I said he cannot play wing which is where you want him.
Mata was hardly a natural right winger before we chucked him there, and you're saying lets not put Donny there because he's never played Right Wing. Also I'm not saying "I want to put him there". I'm saying if faced with a choice of Mata and VDB for that spot, which drifts centrally, then I'd take VDB because Mata is ineffective in that role, whereas Donny has shown to be effective every time we've played him and he easily possesses skillsets to flourish in this role.

Donny's pass completion was actually 93%, best on the pitch, and he made more tackles than any of his peers too. He wasn't just sitting around up top or just drifting out of positions, Hargreaves' evaluation on BT sport even suggested he was one of the good players for us: "Van de Beek kept the ball moving. He was sharp. I was surprised he went off.” RVP whilst saying it was nothing special (no one was that day), said he did alright. No one suggested he was always out of position and the heatmaps don't really suggest this either.

So yes, where we don't have a natural right winger and are playing Juan Fecking Mata, it's fair to suggest VDB can do a better job there. And he can play a box to box too. These aren't adjustments that are akin to a striker playing center back, and the qualities are not like comparing Lukaku to Maguire, so get a grip and revise your narrative.
 

romufc

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Mata was hardly a natural right winger before we chucked him there, and you're saying lets not put Donny there because he's never played Right Wing. Also I'm not saying "I want to put him there". I'm saying if faced with a choice of Mata and VDB for that spot, which drifts centrally, then I'd take VDB because Mata is ineffective in that role, whereas Donny has shown to be effective every time we've played him and he easily possesses skillsets to flourish in this role.

Donny's pass completion was actually 93%, best on the pitch, and he made more tackles than any of his peers too. He wasn't just sitting around up top or just drifting out of positions, Hargreaves' evaluation on BT sport even suggested he was one of the good players for us: "Van de Beek kept the ball moving. He was sharp. I was surprised he went off.” RVP whilst saying it was nothing special (no one was that day), said he did alright. No one suggested he was always out of position and the heatmaps don't really suggest this either.

So yes, where we don't have a natural right winger and are playing Juan Fecking Mata, it's fair to suggest VDB can do a better job there. And he can play a box to box too. These aren't adjustments that are akin to a striker playing center back, and the qualities are not like comparing Lukaku to Maguire, so get a grip and revise your narrative.

Before we chucked him there? Let me help you analyse it a little bit.

2 seasons before joining us:

11/12 - 54 games - 37 games on the wing
12/13 - 64 games - 25 games on the wing

So tell me how have we chucked him on the wing?

No one is disputing VDB is a good player, he kept the ball moving yes, that means he is a box to box?

He made more tackles than his peers? 0.7 tackles. McTominay who came on at half time had more. Bruno who plays CAM had more.

Pogba who played less mins had more interceptions.

Pogba and McTominay who played less minutes had more clearances than Donny.

He looked good on the ball, which has overshadowed the fact that he did not play his position well.

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...20-2021-Manchester-United-Istanbul-Basaksehir
 

VP89

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Before we chucked him there? Let me help you analyse it a little bit.

2 seasons before joining us:

11/12 - 54 games - 37 games on the wing
12/13 - 64 games - 25 games on the wing

So tell me how have we chucked him on the wing?
More than happy to admit Mata played more on the right side prior to joining us but you'd be absolutely mad to suggest he's performed adequately enough to warrant starting games there at his stage of his career. And very odd to suggest that VDB's skillsets being used in such a role is like having Lukaku at center back
No one is disputing VDB is a good player, he kept the ball moving yes, that means he is a box to box?

He made more tackles than his peers? 0.7 tackles. McTominay who came on at half time had more. Bruno who plays CAM had more.

Pogba who played less mins had more interceptions.

Pogba and McTominay who played less minutes had more clearances than Donny.

He looked good on the ball, which has overshadowed the fact that he did not play his position well.

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...20-2021-Manchester-United-Istanbul-Basaksehir
Re your source - please navigate to match center > player statistics > scroll to our players, switch to defensive > tell me his comparison of interceptions and tackles to his peers.

Also show me the heatmap that suggests he was too far advanced?

This idea that he can only be a 10 is just wrong. Outright wrong. I have to also caveat that he's played in the B2B role 1 game for us all season, that too in a match where the entire team was dogshite. To rule him out of such positions that early is presumptious.
 

romufc

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More than happy to admit Mata played more on the right side prior to joining us but you'd be absolutely mad to suggest he's performed adequately enough to warrant starting games there at his stage of his career. And very odd to suggest that VDB's skillsets being used in such a role is like having Lukaku at center back

Re your source - please navigate to match center > player statistics > scroll to our players, switch to defensive > tell me his comparison of interceptions and tackles to his peers.

Also show me the heatmap that suggests he was too far advanced?

This idea that he can only be a 10 is just wrong. Outright wrong. I have to also caveat that he's played in the B2B role 1 game for us all season, that too in a match where the entire team was dogshite. To rule him out of such positions that early is presumptious.
A winger and a box to box have completely different skillset. Does that mean Mata can play box to box?

I sent you the link, i suggest you take your own advice and check.

Re heat map, I am no analyst, I could ask you the contrary, prove that he played well in the box to box which includes passing, chances created, defensive actions, interceptions, tackles, blocks, fouls etc...

I am not saying he cannot play the 8, I am saying he cannot play as a winger.
 

Foxbatt

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DVB doesn't need to be a right winger to play on the right side of midfield. Playing Mata there is useless most of the time. DVB can play on the right side of midfield. His movements off the ball are better and he is quicker and stronger than mata. He can play box to box too. So with Matic in the holding role we should have played Fred and DVB with Bruno on top with Martial and Rashford as strikers.
 

VP89

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A winger and a box to box have completely different skillset. Does that mean Mata can play box to box?

I sent you the link, i suggest you take your own advice and check.

Re heat map, I am no analyst, I could ask you the contrary, prove that he played well in the box to box which includes passing, chances created, defensive actions, interceptions, tackles, blocks, fouls etc...

I am not saying he cannot play the 8, I am saying he cannot play as a winger.
Mata doesn't have the legs or the physicality for a box to box role, so no. VDB has the positional awareness, ability to carry the ball from deeper areas and craft to operate there though.

Also, I'm looking at the numbers. I'm not seeing what you're seeing.
DVB doesn't need to be a right winger to play on the right side of midfield. Playing Mata there is useless most of the time. DVB can play on the right side of midfield. His movements off the ball are better and he is quicker and stronger than mata. He can play box to box too. So with Matic in the holding role we should have played Fred and DVB with Bruno on top with Martial and Rashford as strikers.
Also this
 

romufc

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Mata doesn't have the legs or the physicality for a box to box role, so no. VDB has the positional awareness, ability to carry the ball from deeper areas and craft to operate there though.

Also, I'm looking at the numbers. I'm not seeing what you're seeing.

Also this
What @Foxbatt is suggesting there is not playing a 4-2-3-1 though. He is suggesting a diamond, which I do not argue with.

However; I would make one change and have Donny as the CAM with Bruno and Fred as the CM's. Like you have said and many have said, Donny keeps it simple and moving, he is very good at receiving the ball and linking players which is better in a 10 than CM.

Bruno has shown for Portugal he can play RCM so I am not sure why he cannot play a more disciplined role for us.
 

VP89

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What @Foxbatt is suggesting there is not playing a 4-2-3-1 though. He is suggesting a diamond, which I do not argue with.

However; I would make one change and have Donny as the CAM with Bruno and Fred as the CM's. Like you have said and many have said, Donny keeps it simple and moving, he is very good at receiving the ball and linking players which is better in a 10 than CM.

Bruno has shown for Portugal he can play RCM so I am not sure why he cannot play a more disciplined role for us.
Is he? If so, since when did Mata play on the right side of a diamond for us? Sounds like he wasn't referring to a diamond.
 

romufc

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Is he? If so, since when did Mata play on the right side of a diamond for us? Sounds like he wasn't referring to a diamond.
Well then if he isn't the same thing will keep happening again and again. The issue with our wingers is they all like to cut in which causes an inbalance to the team.
 

VP89

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Well then if he isn't the same thing will keep happening again and again. The issue with our wingers is they all like to cut in which causes an inbalance to the team.
Obviously, but that's not what was being discussed. The argument was, if you have Mata like a sore thumb on the right flank you might as well put a younger, equally clever and hard working player there in VDB.

For the record, we need a RW at RW. But VDB being on the bench when Mata plays is just odd.
 

romufc

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Obviously, but that's not what was being discussed. The argument was, if you have Mata like a sore thumb on the right flank you might as well put a younger, equally clever and hard working player there in VDB.

For the record, we need a RW at RW. But VDB being on the bench when Mata plays is just odd.
Yes, we need a RW at RW.

Have you seen our fan base? if we play VDB at RW and he doesnt have the influnce he would as CM/CAM we would be here saying what a flop he is?

Its not fair on him to have to play a position he never has in a struggling team.
 

TheRedHearted

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Again, what evidence have you got that he can play RW? None.

Mata started playing LW at Valencia, go have a look instead of telling me to have a word with myself. So no, Mata was a winger who adjusted himself to play the 10 not the other way around, get your facts right.

Yes, the reason most people on here voted him was because he was the best out of a bad bunch, as a box to box you need to have output attacking and defending, people saw his 90% pass accuracy and voted him MOTM when in actual fact he was out of position throughout the whole game.

As the box to box, you are meant to help out defensively yet he had minimal defensive actions.

Finally, I never said he cannot adapt as an 8, I said he cannot play wing which is where you want him.
The modern game puts central players on the wing a lot, difference is Mata doesn't have pace anymore. Centrally he can feed the wings or slink one through for Martial but on the right hand side he's wasted. Donny has more speed and can be more dangerous on the wing, that's just the fact of the matter.

I would even put it as a 4-3-3 with the defensive anchor of two, donny on top of them in the 3 and then bruno underneath Rashford and Martial(or Greenwood at this point) in a narrow and tight 4-3-3. Telles can provide the width and can hope bassaka does.
 

Strelok

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Yes, we need a RW at RW.

Have you seen our fan base? if we play VDB at RW and he doesnt have the influnce he would as CM/CAM we would be here saying what a flop he is?

Its not fair on him to have to play a position he never has in a struggling team.
Agreed.

Tbh I'd rather start Fred as RW than VDB. VDB is really really slow guys. I remember a situation in the Istanbul match where VDB had to chase an opponent midfielder and the more those two run, the further VDB was away from that midfielder. And mind you, that midfielder was not any pacey sort at all. I knew he's not fast but I didn't think he's that slow.

I was crying for a RW in the summer and wished we could buy or loan a proper winger, like Perisic for example. But we got two 18 yo kids, one seems to struggle at the U23 level. The other would only arrive by Jan and tbh I don't have much hope in him. He's barely played any top flight football so far.

Why it's so hard for that cnut to understand that we need fecking RW to play a 4231. Whenever I think about this I get pretty angry. We're one of the biggest clubs in the world, we play a 4231 yet we have no fecking RW. And we have to try to fit all kind of players into that. Of course it's not gonna work. Feck you Ed :mad:
 

Borys

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Shifting players out of position to make room for Donny and play him on the right because we have no natural winger is my favorite Redcafe crossover of all time.
 

Irrational.

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Grealish would’ve been the smarter buy, for about £15-20 million more. It’s clear Ole doesn’t know what the feck to do with him or how to fit him into the side.
 

romufc

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The modern game puts central players on the wing a lot, difference is Mata doesn't have pace anymore. Centrally he can feed the wings or slink one through for Martial but on the right hand side he's wasted. Donny has more speed and can be more dangerous on the wing, that's just the fact of the matter.

I would even put it as a 4-3-3 with the defensive anchor of two, donny on top of them in the 3 and then bruno underneath Rashford and Martial(or Greenwood at this point) in a narrow and tight 4-3-3. Telles can provide the width and can hope bassaka does.
How many central midfielders play RW / LW?

The problems with all these formations that people come up with, its all well and good but it is also worth considering who we have as manager. He talks like he wants width in his players and plays Rashford and Mata who never stay wide... but won't try a narrow with overlapping full backs.

So, under Ole we will not see a inventive system I am afraid.
 

romufc

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Agreed.

Tbh I'd rather start Fred as RW than VDB. VDB is really really slow guys. I remember a situation in the Istanbul match where VDB had to chase an opponent midfielder and the more those two run, the further VDB was away from that midfielder. And mind you, that midfielder was not any pacey sort at all. I knew he's not fast but I didn't think he's that slow.

I was crying for a RW in the summer and wished we could buy or loan a proper winger, like Perisic for example. But we got two 18 yo kids, one seems to struggle at the U23 level. The other would only arrive by Jan and tbh I don't have much hope in him. He's barely played any top flight football so far.

Why it's so hard for that cnut to understand that we need fecking RW to play a 4231. Whenever I think about this I get pretty angry. We're one of the biggest clubs in the world, we play a 4231 yet we have no fecking RW. And we have to try to fit all kind of players into that. Of course it's not gonna work. Feck you Ed :mad:
He is the shiny new toy so instead of playing him where we signed him for lets play him where we should have singed someone for, makes a lot of sense that.

I dont know why fans want Donny to play RW. It's not his position.

I think everyone was crying for a RW in the summer, it was complete incompetence from the board not to sign a RW. You cannot then sign 2 18 year olds and think they will be playing first team, one isnt even here till Jan so its a bit of a joke really.

This is why the individual results may be Ole's fault but the overall team performances and results are not completely down to him. It is the boards fault.

Look at the mistakes the board has made, this has impacted directly on Ole.

1. Signed a CAM when we have 2 players that can play that position
2. No RW signed when one was required from the last 5 years.
3. Signed Telles and Cavani too late in the window

Signing Donny instead of a RW has put pressure on Ole via the fans because he isnt played.

Why would a manager play a new signing when the current No 10 is delivering?
 

Ajax Forever

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Shifting players out of position to make room for Donny and play him on the right because we have no natural winger is my favorite Redcafe crossover of all time.
Let’s shift everyone out of position. So... Donny can play out of position too :lol:
 

Strelok

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He is the shiny new toy so instead of playing him where we signed him for lets play him where we should have singed someone for, makes a lot of sense that.

I dont know why fans want Donny to play RW. It's not his position.

I think everyone was crying for a RW in the summer, it was complete incompetence from the board not to sign a RW. You cannot then sign 2 18 year olds and think they will be playing first team, one isnt even here till Jan so its a bit of a joke really.

This is why the individual results may be Ole's fault but the overall team performances and results are not completely down to him. It is the boards fault.

Look at the mistakes the board has made, this has impacted directly on Ole.

1. Signed a CAM when we have 2 players that can play that position
2. No RW signed when one was required from the last 5 years.
3. Signed Telles and Cavani too late in the window

Signing Donny instead of a RW has put pressure on Ole via the fans because he isnt played.

Why would a manager play a new signing when the current No 10 is delivering?
Imo signing Donny was a sensible choice. Bruno simply can't play 50-60 matches a season and I don't think we'd like to see the likes of Lingard, Mata, Pereira there anymore. And especially considering the Pogba situation. Donny will get plenty of minutes soon I think.

But not signing a RW? a bloody hole for like 5-6 years? It's not like we're only asking for Sancho, any proper RW would be very welcomed. Anyone with eyes can see that we have no width, our attacking movements are very unbalanced and all teams know from the start that we won't attack their left. My blood is boiling again. Feck you feck you Ed :mad:
 

romufc

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Imo signing Donny was a sensible choice. Bruno simply can't play 50-60 matches a season and I don't think we'd like to see the likes of Lingard, Mata, Pereira there anymore. And especially considering the Pogba situation. Donny will get plenty of minutes soon I think.

But not signing a RW? a bloody hole for like 5-6 years? It's not like we're only asking for Sancho, any proper RW would be very welcomed. Anyone with eyes can see that we have no width, our attacking movements are very unbalanced and all teams know from the start that we won't attack their left. My blood is boiling again. Feck you feck you Ed :mad:
It is a sensible signing if you think like you and not every other fan who think they know best. If you actually understand football and the pressures, you'd realise its a good signing for the squad.

If you actually take a deep breath, think logically without the "Ole Out" hat, you will start to understand.

1. Donny is going to be a vital squad player
2. The manager cannot risk playing him right now when Bruno is playing well.
3. The fans putting excessive pressure on Ole means he is only concerned about results, this results in playing a safe system to make sure we dont get beat.
4. Stop start season which has made it difficult for us to get momentum and bring Donny in.

Yeah, talking about the RW is depressing, we should have signed someone to provide a short term gap if Sancho is their long term target.