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2020-21 Performances


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Alemar

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Where does all this obsession with playing VDB come from? He is here for depth, that is why he was purchased - it is totally fine. There are no reasons to play him as his peers are better players - but if something happens, then we have better options than Andreas Pereira, that’s his role
 

bsCallout

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Where does all this obsession with playing VDB come from? He is here for depth, that is why he was purchased - it is totally fine. There are no reasons to play him as his peers are better players - but if something happens, then we have better options than Andreas Pereira, that’s his role
People are calling out for Greenwood to be dropped for him. To play someone who doesn't play in that position over a youngster who needs game time? It's madness.

There is no one that should be dropped for him, and hes not exactly a game changer either.
 

The Firestarter

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Where does all this obsession with playing VDB come from? He is here for depth, that is why he was purchased - it is totally fine. There are no reasons to play him as his peers are better players - but if something happens, then we have better options than Andreas Pereira, that’s his role
Perhaps because he was not cheap and he might also not enjoy just sitting on the bench. I suspect he was promised more game time than what he is currently getting.
 

Alemar

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I suspect he was promised more game time than what he is currently getting.
could it be that he also promised better performances than he is currently delivering?

contrary to some year ago, OGS now selects players on merit (or at least much more on merit than in his earlier days)...

OGS understands that we fight for the title, and he plays the best team he can (subject to rotation): VDB is worse than Bruno and than Pogba, but he also can’t properly do the defensive job of Matic or Fred. So how can he get more game time without compromising our chances for the title? Someone needs to be dropped - please advise who
 
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The Firestarter

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could it be that he also promised better performances than he is currently delivering?

contrary to some year ago, OGS now selects players on merit (or at least much more on merit than in his earlier days)...

OGS understands that we fight for the title, and he plays the best team he can (subject to rotation): VDB is worse than Bruno and than Pogba, but he also can’t properly do the defensive job of Matic or Fred. So how can he get more game time without compromising our chances for the title? Someone needs to be dropped - please advise who
If you judge his ability purely based on the extremely limited game time he has been given, then that's extremely harsh but I am sure you apply this to every other player.

He should be given at least a half of the time Lingard was afforded initially , in order to prove himself. And I am not suggesting someone should get permanently dropped. Instead, he should participate in the regular rotation with Pogba and Bruno, because they need rest too and especially in the Bruno case it shows.
 

Alemar

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He should be given at least a half of the time Lingard was afforded initially , in order to prove himself. And I am not suggesting someone should get permanently dropped. Instead, he should participate in the regular rotation with Pogba and Bruno, because they need rest too and especially in the Bruno case it shows.
You would be right if we weren’t fighting for the title. It’s difficult to omit Bruno or Pogba now - OGS can’t risk losing points now...
 

The Firestarter

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You would be right if we weren’t fighting for the title. It’s difficult to omit Bruno or Pogba now - OGS can’t risk losing points now...
And when Bruno is less effective since he is played every single game and tired , or God forbid suffers an injury because of that, how is that not a bigger risk?
 

DoomSlayer

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Who should VDB be starting ahead of, objectively speaking?
 

Counterfactual

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Oct 1, 2019
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His time will come. I'm baffled that some of you are talking about selling him. We need the depth. We've been unusually lucky with injuries (and covid) so far this season, thankfully, but can't be relying on that carrying on forever.
Exactly.

I very much doubt we promised him anything other than rotational appearances this year, with more in the second half of the season than the first unless injuries happened, and that's what he'll get.
 

United in sin

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In sorry but this is just crap.

It shows clear lack of understanding of roles. Mctominay is a completely different player.

Donny might be better on the ball, finding space but he is not better at hassling opponents, shutting them down.
McTominay is not pivotal for this role and he can't even be trusted to do it alone without Fred by his side. We're doing too much to accommodate a limited player who offers very little in terms of passing and overall distribution. We're not a small club, we should be exerting our will on most clubs in the league by playing one destroyer behind the b2b mid and Bruno. There's no reason VDB should be getting as few minutes as he has compared to McTominay
 

lex talionis

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Those who are baffled by the concern about the lack of playing time for Van de Beek are missing the point. Every single poster on the caf agrees that Ole has us at the top of the table and that you don't disrupt what's working. And what's working is playing Bruno and Pogba, plus either McFred -- but you gotta love "Frogba"! -- or Matic.

These five are winning games for us, despite highly dodgy play by our forward line. No one is saying we should drop Bruno or Pogba for Van de Beek. The goal is to win trophies and for us to have a chance at winning trophies, Bruno and Pogba must play and be at their best.

But what we are saying is that Van De Beek is a player who United should never have bought if the manager has no intention of using him in a meaningful way. Maybe there was a miscommunication between management and Ole in the first place or maybe Ole sees something he doesn't like in Donny, but whatever the root of the problem if Donny isn't good enough in Ole's eyes to get more than 5 minutes every third game then he needs to move on next summer. If all Donny is good for is garbage minutes we've already got Lingard for that. Or we could bring up an academy player to fill in where Lingard can't. But you don't spend 40m on a player who the manager sees no use for. That 40m could have been applied to the purchase of Sancho to address our need at RW or Grealish whom we knew back in the summer would have substantially improved the squad. Instead, we spent 40m on a player for whom there is no reasonably foreseeable future with the club.

The question has been asked before in this thread -- who would drop Donny for -- Bruno or Pogba? The answer is clearly neither. Then why spend 40m, which is still a decent amount of change in today's world, on a squad player who the manager sees no need for even coming off the bench?
 

Terranova

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His thread pages to minutes played in the league ratio is going strong at least.
rightfully so , but the problem is that he still has Pogba and Fernandes ahead of him with pagecount. The guy can never catch a break
 

RedDevilzFox

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Trust the manager to do what's right for the club. Its not about DVDB or any one player for that matter.

Although, my personal opinion is that in some matches he could have the game time currently given to McT.
 

JG3001

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could it be that he also promised better performances than he is currently delivering?

contrary to some year ago, OGS now selects players on merit (or at least much more on merit than in his earlier days)...

OGS understands that we fight for the title, and he plays the best team he can (subject to rotation): VDB is worse than Bruno and than Pogba, but he also can’t properly do the defensive job of Matic or Fred. So how can he get more game time without compromising our chances for the title? Someone needs to be dropped - please advise who
But how can anyone give an honest appraisal of his performances when he’s barely featured? Either he’s not up to the task in training, or there is a petty agenda because he isn’t Grealish.

It’s not starting games which is the concern for most people, it’s the fact he can barely get time as a sub...

People may slag off the Dutch league, but end of the day he was a key part of a exciting young Ajax team that cost us £40m. Not starting, fair enough... but can’t even find 15 mins at the end of a game, when we’ve seen some absolutely diabolical performances from other midfielders over the last 2 months, bit strange to say the least.
 

Oranges038

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but can’t even find 15 mins at the end of a game, when we’ve seen some absolutely diabolical performances from other midfielders over the last 2 months, bit strange to say the least.
That's what annoys me too, I don't get it. I'd like to see him get more than 2 or 3 minutes at the end, and time wasting sub or not bringing him on at the end like that is totally pointless.

In my view, when games are tight and the sides are level, Ole is afraid to make these changes, because Bruno can create something out of nothing. So, he won't be replaced for Van De Beek, neither will Pogba on current form.

If it's tight but in his favour, he seens to not want to change too earlier in case it goes against him. He prefers to bring on Magic or McT near the end to sit in and see it out.
 

Alemar

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But how can anyone give an honest appraisal of his performances when he’s barely featured? Either he’s not up to the task in training
of course, it could be trainings, coaches see him every day. It’s not a year OGS will be using agenda - he is fighting for the title. He will play those who are ready, it’s very easy
 
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That's what annoys me too, I don't get it. I'd like to see him get more than 2 or 3 minutes at the end, and time wasting sub or not bringing him on at the end like that is totally pointless.

In my view, when games are tight and the sides are level, Ole is afraid to make these changes, because Bruno can create something out of nothing. So, he won't be replaced for Van De Beek, neither will Pogba on current form.

If it's tight but in his favour, he seens to not want to change too earlier in case it goes against him. He prefers to bring on Magic or McT near the end to sit in and see it out.
I’m not sure about the way you’ve worded it - whether being afraid is a criticism of Ole or not I don’t think he’s afraid - you’ve just identified that it’s the likes of Bruno and Pogba that can make things happen! It’s that he doesn’t think DVDB will be able to make a difference.

perhaps he’s just not good enough to replace our starters at the 60th minute mark.
 

Crustanoid

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He’ll be immense for us eventually. As others have said if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. He’ll ease his way in, as many others have done.....Vidic, Evra, and many more have done the same
 

Oranges038

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I’m not sure about the way you’ve worded it - whether being afraid is a criticism of Ole or not I don’t think he’s afraid - you’ve just identified that it’s the likes of Bruno and Pogba that can make things happen! It’s that he doesn’t think DVDB will be able to make a difference.

perhaps he’s just not good enough to replace our starters at the 60th minute mark.
Trepidatious.
 

Mindhunter

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Yeah let's disrupt a winning combination by shoehorning a new player into a position just to pacify the fans who want him to get game time. Then if we lose points, there is always the Ole Out thread to move to.

Ole knows what he is doing. VDB's time will come but not at the expense of our current performance. Unless he produced something in training that force's Ole's hand, he will have to be patient and bide his time to get in. Once he does, he should do everything in his power to stay there. The club doesn't owe him anything more than it does to other players who are in the team. Just because he is the latest new player to arrive, it doesn't give him an automatic route to the first eleven.
 
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Yeah let's disrupt a winning combination by shoehorning a new player into a position just to pacify the fans who want him to get game time. Then if we lose points, there is always the Ole Out thread to move to.

Ole knows what he is doing. VDB's time will come but not at the expense of our current performance. Unless he produced something in training that force's Ole's hand, he will have to be patient and bide his time to get in. Once he does, he should do everything in his power to stay there. The club doesn't owe him anything more than it does to other players who are in the team. Just because he is the latest new player to arrive, it doesn't give him an automatic route to the first eleven.
this should really be the ending of this thread. Good post.
 

lex talionis

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Yeah let's disrupt a winning combination by shoehorning a new player into a position just to pacify the fans who want him to get game time. Then if we lose points, there is always the Ole Out thread to move to.

Ole knows what he is doing. VDB's time will come but not at the expense of our current performance. Unless he produced something in training that force's Ole's hand, he will have to be patient and bide his time to get in. Once he does, he should do everything in his power to stay there. The club doesn't owe him anything more than it does to other players who are in the team. Just because he is the latest new player to arrive, it doesn't give him an automatic route to the first eleven.
Your first point is well taken. You don't disrupt what's working. Ole's at the wheel and the ship is heading in the right direction.

But the second point has issues. On what basis can anyone say "VDB's time will come"? Who does Donny knock out of the starting XI? Not Bruno and not Pogba and he's certainly not a destroyer, so not Matic. Even if Bruno goes out for a month with injury and Donny puts in god-like performances, there's no chance Ole is going to relegate Bruno, or Pogba, to being Donny's cover.

There's no road for Donny to become a regular starter for us unless we sell either Bruno or Pogba, which is always possible but not likely, given the financial situation other clubs of potential appeal of clubs like Real and Barcelona. Sure, perhaps the club bought Ole this year in the belief that Pogba will leave in the summer of 2021, and that may still happen, but there's no chance Donny will push either Bruno or Pogba aside especially if he only gets 2-3 minutes every second or third game, decisions which are solely made by the manager.
 

Mindhunter

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Your first point is well taken. You don't disrupt what's working. Ole's at the wheel and the ship is heading in the right direction.

But the second point has issues. On what basis can anyone say "VDB's time will come"? Who does Donny knock out of the starting XI? Not Bruno and not Pogba and he's certainly not a destroyer, so not Matic. Even if Bruno goes out for a month with injury and Donny puts in god-like performances, there's no chance Ole is going to relegate Bruno, or Pogba, to being Donny's cover.

There's no road for Donny to become a regular starter for us unless we sell either Bruno or Pogba, which is always possible but not likely, given the financial situation other clubs of potential appeal of clubs like Real and Barcelona. Sure, perhaps the club bought Ole this year in the belief that Pogba will leave in the summer of 2021, and that may still happen, but there's no chance Donny will push either Bruno or Pogba aside especially if he only gets 2-3 minutes every second or third game, decisions which are solely made by the manager.
Not sure what you are talking about. He has to follow the usual route of waiting for appearances in cup competitions and impressing the manager. If he performs better than Pogba or Bruno then he will replace them in the starting line up. If not, then he will have to be satisfied with a rotation role as that would be his level based on merit and be ready to contribute when called upon.

Not every player can be a nailed on starter. He only need to look as far as Fred for inspiration.
 

lex talionis

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Not sure what you are talking about. He has to follow the usual route of waiting for appearances in cup competitions and impressing the manager. If he performs better than Pogba or Bruno then he will replace them in the starting line up. If not, then he will have to be satisfied with a rotation role as that would be his level based on merit and be ready to contribute when called upon.

Not every player can be a nailed on starter. He only need to look as far as Fred for inspiration.
I see a lot of quality in Donny Van de Beek, but I also see no chance of him ever displacing Bruno or Pogba in the starting lineup, on a regular basis that is. And although we cannot know the mind of any footballer, it’s highly unlikely that Donny will ever be satisfied coming on in the 87th minute every third game.
 

Mindhunter

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I see a lot of quality in Donny Van de Beek, but I also see no chance of him ever displacing Bruno or Pogba in the starting lineup, on a regular basis that is. And although we cannot know the mind of any footballer, it’s highly unlikely that Donny will ever be satisfied coming on in the 87th minute every third game.
Well that's his problem then, isn't it? Did he not think he would have to fight for his place in a team with title ambitions? Either way, if he is good enough he will displace them. If not, either he needs to be satisfied with a rotation role or needs to find another club who would be willing to give him a starting role and pay us what we would demand in transfer fees.

I like the lad but we don't owe him anything. Only way he gets into the starting line-up is on merit. There are several players who commanded a higher transfer fee filling rotational roles in teams and there is nothing wrong in that. Every player can't be a regular starter. It's an unrealistic expectation.

If Pogba leaves, I am sure Ole will give VDB the chance to make a mark before looking elsewhere. But that doesn't mean we force fit him into the team right now when we are playing so well and Pogba and Bruno are winning us crucial points from losing positions.