The difference when Fred and Bruno came one was amazing. VDB is a good player but he's slow, can't close down a man like the other do.
34
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 36
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 2
- Yellow cards
- 1
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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He is a number 10 (and he always was), just a different kind of a number 10 that we need. And even if he was the right fit for us stylistically, we still have, quite frankly, a better player starting.
Yes. He needs a run of games. He is a technically good player.
Im just glad he didnt do any howlers and we did end up scoring 2 goals while he was on the pitch.
Our midfield was very open with him on though, he seems afraid to press and harass.
Our midfield was very open with him on though, he seems afraid to press and harass.
I like Donny but he needs to find a way to get more involved in games and work on his positioning in our system.
His pass to Rashford for the first goal was a great example of how quick he is to think but like I said the games he plays pass him by way to much.
His pass to Rashford for the first goal was a great example of how quick he is to think but like I said the games he plays pass him by way to much.
Not writing VDB off as that would be silly, and I've learned my lesson after thinking Fred was done here. However, I struggle to see what he offers? He doesn't really have a huge impact on games. His touches and short passing are tidy, easy on the eye but he seems to always play the safe option when we could be away. I don't know if it's a lack of vision/awareness or confidence. Hoping it's the latter because at the moment he doesn't offer much more than Lingard did.
That’s the easiest part. We purchased him for depth.
It’s critically important to have players on the bench who are better than Pereira and Lingard - and VDB is exactly this sort of player.
There's nowt wrong with his technical ability or vision. At the moment I just feel that he is generally a half or one second behind the pace of the game, which can be crucial to getting a successful tackle or making a key pass.
Could be that he's not getting regular game time. Could also be that Ole is still training him to be more explosive and impactful.
He will get there eventually. I'd love it if he could also transition a bit deeper and play alongside Fred/McT
Could be that he's not getting regular game time. Could also be that Ole is still training him to be more explosive and impactful.
He will get there eventually. I'd love it if he could also transition a bit deeper and play alongside Fred/McT
I just don't think he has a future at the top level as a number 10. He's got to be coached into a deeper role or part of a midfield three where he can showcase his press resistance and passing ability. I wouldn't fully write him off yet; he's technically very good.
Not saying that we should change the whole team. Only saying that buying him to play in the current positions was a huge mistake. If changing tactics was the plan and his arrival would help with it, then it would've been a great signing. But now not so much. It's like buying a winger when you play 5-3-2
Maybe it really was the plan, but that plan was ditched because the results are too good(as weird as it sounds
).I would like to see him play in the midfield pivot with Matic. Realistically, that's the only pairing which includes Donny that I could see working because Ole's not gonna play him alongside Fred (the duo would be too short) or Pogba (too offensive).
Sheffield United would be the perfect chance to try them (weak opposition, Matic has been rested for a while and Pogba needs a break before Arsenal).
Really hope Ole gives it a shot
Sheffield United would be the perfect chance to try them (weak opposition, Matic has been rested for a while and Pogba needs a break before Arsenal).
Really hope Ole gives it a shot
The young version of Mata was head and shoulders above Van De Beek.
He is like budget Muller. IMO he will be good player to have against deep defensive lines as we play most of the game in final third and his flicks and quick passes will help in unlocking defenses. In the games against strong teams where you have space, he isn't good enough as he doesn't use the space to release the pass. He is more of a supporting player to the better creative player next to him.
He lacks the creativity to be Brunos stand-in. Next time Bruno needs a rest, Pogba should play in that position. DVB's strengths are his technical ability and work rate. Best way for him to get minutes would be to improve his heading and hit the gym. He was rather weak by eredivisie standards as well and eredivisie players are notoriously bad at heading. Two things that can both be practiced.
He has the potential to be better than Fred.in that deeper position. His goal scoring ability isn't wasted there either. At Ajax he would always join the attack from deeper in midfield and we could clearly see glimpes of that in his appearances for us. I can see why right now Ole doesn't bring him on more. He wants to be able to take him off in case he has a stinker. A couple of more of these games will hopefully change things.
He can become a great squad player where he plays Pogbas position when Pogba needs a rest and Pogba plays as the 10 when Bruno needs a rest. Hopefully this time next year he will have cemented that role.
Anyone who watched him at Ajax knows he has the passing range required.. He's just not used to making long passes as often as he's expected here. He's not slow either, I'd say he's pretty average but I don't think pace is as important as stamina and positioning is in the no. 8 role.
He definitely needs to improve and if he doesn't, he'll play for a mid table La Liga club next January.
He has the potential to be better than Fred.in that deeper position. His goal scoring ability isn't wasted there either. At Ajax he would always join the attack from deeper in midfield and we could clearly see glimpes of that in his appearances for us. I can see why right now Ole doesn't bring him on more. He wants to be able to take him off in case he has a stinker. A couple of more of these games will hopefully change things.
He can become a great squad player where he plays Pogbas position when Pogba needs a rest and Pogba plays as the 10 when Bruno needs a rest. Hopefully this time next year he will have cemented that role.
Anyone who watched him at Ajax knows he has the passing range required.. He's just not used to making long passes as often as he's expected here. He's not slow either, I'd say he's pretty average but I don't think pace is as important as stamina and positioning is in the no. 8 role.
He definitely needs to improve and if he doesn't, he'll play for a mid table La Liga club next January.
He was quiet yesterday, but when involved it was all positive touches and quickly around the corner. Still finding his feet - hopefully he can fit in behind Bruno, as there is not dropping him.
I think the very fact that he suits different football is why he was signed, lots of games last season we needed a goal Vs deep teams and players were tired and we had no bench. It hasn't been the case as much this year but I think in a situation like that he has valueNot saying that we should change the whole team. Only saying that buying him to play in the current positions was a huge mistake. If changing tactics was the plan and his arrival would help with it, then it would've been a great signing. But now not so much. It's like buying a winger when you play 5-3-2
Maybe it really was the plan, but that plan was ditched because the results are too good(as weird as it sounds
Looking forward to him getting a good run of games in the Europe League and FA Cup, and some League games.
He needs a chance to play regularly to show if he's good enough.
It also must be incredibly difficult for him moving to Manchester in the Lockdown, not able to socialise, have family visit - and more importantly not be able to get to know the other players outside of work.
He seems professional and i hope it comes good for him at United.
He needs a chance to play regularly to show if he's good enough.
It also must be incredibly difficult for him moving to Manchester in the Lockdown, not able to socialise, have family visit - and more importantly not be able to get to know the other players outside of work.
He seems professional and i hope it comes good for him at United.
I agree. I felt he was too safe at times yesterday.
Just watched the highlights. Here's a summary of his performance:
09:38 - Makes a dinked pass over Thiago, for Greenwood to run onto on the right. Then makes a run to the edge of the penalty area for a high percentage opportunity. Greenwood opts for a lower percentage shot at the near post, and keeper saves. DvB jumps up and down in rage (exaggerating), and Cavani shouts at Greenwood, pointing to DvB's position.
12:53 - Gets in the box for a tap in if keeper parries a shot to his right. Greenwood shoots off target. DvB and Cavani a little pissed, which commentator also points out.
16:53 - Makes space in the centre of the box, to set up a possible shooting opportunity for Rashford. Rashford's ball to him is intercepted, and goes out for a corner.
18:00 - Pressing Fabinho half-heartedly who passes to Wijnaldum, who gives it to Firmino, who creates the goal. Pressing from the front so not really at fault. Note: Dean Henderson really made himself big for the goal, Salah's finish was world class.
25:00 - Pogba does really well to win the ball at the edge of our box. DvB is alert and knocks the ball towards Rashford. Rashford produces a pass somewhat reminiscent of Bruno to find Greenwood, who having had a few sighters, puts it away. Might have not been so confident if he hadn't taken a couple of pops at goal already, somewhat justifying that selfishness can be a good trait in a striker.
27:24 - Great opportunity as he points to exactly where he wants it played, andruns onto the pass from Rashford. Pushes it to the right with the outside of his foot expecting Allison to slide into him, but the keeper just sits down on the floor instead. Not a penalty. If he had tried to lob the ball over Allison, Cavani would probably have managed to bundle it in at the far post.
40:00 - First to the ball after Fabinho fouls Greenwood. Alert to the situation. Referee blows for a foul since DvB wasn't in a particularly threatening situation. But if Cavani was onside, then he was unmarked between two defenders for a quick cross. DvB had taken a touch and looked up to spot Cavani.
43:00 - First time pass to Shaw sets up a great crossing opportunity. Parried away by keeper, and Mctominay shoots into a crowd.
My observations:
The key takeaway for me is that if we had a winger on the right, instead of a converted striker, he definitely picks out Cavani or VdB instead of shooting. That would have put a very different complexion on the game and assessment of VdB's performance.
The people who say that the game is passing him by are...not too far off.
He doesn't seem to have too many defensive responsibility, so when we're out of possession, he doesn't really get involved. But when we are in an attacking phase, then he is always in the thick of the action. On another day, he comes away with a goal or a pre-assist.
He is technically quite good. Even in the buildup of our second goal, he received the throw-in from Shaw in a crowded space, and laid it off to Pogba.
So at his most basic, he circulates the ball, and keeps everything ticking. At his best he makes runs into the box, looking for shooting opportunities, first time balls out wide, and one-twos.
Definitely looks short of confidence, and probably needs a run of games to get that back. When we transition to a more possession based game then we might see him performing consistently, rather than in just the attacking phases.
Doesn't get into the side ahead of Bruno and Pogba, so a run of games might be hard to come by.
09:38 - Makes a dinked pass over Thiago, for Greenwood to run onto on the right. Then makes a run to the edge of the penalty area for a high percentage opportunity. Greenwood opts for a lower percentage shot at the near post, and keeper saves. DvB jumps up and down in rage (exaggerating), and Cavani shouts at Greenwood, pointing to DvB's position.
12:53 - Gets in the box for a tap in if keeper parries a shot to his right. Greenwood shoots off target. DvB and Cavani a little pissed, which commentator also points out.
16:53 - Makes space in the centre of the box, to set up a possible shooting opportunity for Rashford. Rashford's ball to him is intercepted, and goes out for a corner.
18:00 - Pressing Fabinho half-heartedly who passes to Wijnaldum, who gives it to Firmino, who creates the goal. Pressing from the front so not really at fault. Note: Dean Henderson really made himself big for the goal, Salah's finish was world class.
25:00 - Pogba does really well to win the ball at the edge of our box. DvB is alert and knocks the ball towards Rashford. Rashford produces a pass somewhat reminiscent of Bruno to find Greenwood, who having had a few sighters, puts it away. Might have not been so confident if he hadn't taken a couple of pops at goal already, somewhat justifying that selfishness can be a good trait in a striker.
27:24 - Great opportunity as he points to exactly where he wants it played, andruns onto the pass from Rashford. Pushes it to the right with the outside of his foot expecting Allison to slide into him, but the keeper just sits down on the floor instead. Not a penalty. If he had tried to lob the ball over Allison, Cavani would probably have managed to bundle it in at the far post.
40:00 - First to the ball after Fabinho fouls Greenwood. Alert to the situation. Referee blows for a foul since DvB wasn't in a particularly threatening situation. But if Cavani was onside, then he was unmarked between two defenders for a quick cross. DvB had taken a touch and looked up to spot Cavani.
43:00 - First time pass to Shaw sets up a great crossing opportunity. Parried away by keeper, and Mctominay shoots into a crowd.
My observations:
The key takeaway for me is that if we had a winger on the right, instead of a converted striker, he definitely picks out Cavani or VdB instead of shooting. That would have put a very different complexion on the game and assessment of VdB's performance.
The people who say that the game is passing him by are...not too far off.
He doesn't seem to have too many defensive responsibility, so when we're out of possession, he doesn't really get involved. But when we are in an attacking phase, then he is always in the thick of the action. On another day, he comes away with a goal or a pre-assist.
He is technically quite good. Even in the buildup of our second goal, he received the throw-in from Shaw in a crowded space, and laid it off to Pogba.
So at his most basic, he circulates the ball, and keeps everything ticking. At his best he makes runs into the box, looking for shooting opportunities, first time balls out wide, and one-twos.
Definitely looks short of confidence, and probably needs a run of games to get that back. When we transition to a more possession based game then we might see him performing consistently, rather than in just the attacking phases.
Doesn't get into the side ahead of Bruno and Pogba, so a run of games might be hard to come by.
Quite obvious why Ole doesnt rate him as high as others. He´s too weak and too slow to win tackles in midfield and he´s too simple to creatmuch other than with just flicks and running into space. If we really needed a player like this we could have kept Lingard. However i also think he needs run of games and maybe then he shows some ambition on the pitch. We dont dominate possession playing tiki takka like Ajax. He should do better on the ball and finally get some fitness under his belt to show he´s up to the tempo in the prem. He´s lacking that so much and i thought he´s a pretty good runner and hardowrker.
VDB has zero impact on the game. I'd like him to do well, but I see absolutely nothing in him to think he will make it here. Fred is head and shoulders a better player, and I certainly wouldn't have said that in Fred's first season.
I remember at the start of the season some posters on here saying I was crazy to suggest we should have used VDB's transfer fee to meet Sancho's buying fee. And now Sancho could have been the difference between us winning this league, or City.
I remember at the start of the season some posters on here saying I was crazy to suggest we should have used VDB's transfer fee to meet Sancho's buying fee. And now Sancho could have been the difference between us winning this league, or City.
Comparing Donny to Bruno is silly, they are totally different players. Donny is more of a player for possession based teams, Bruno suits our style of play more.
Donny will suit the type of style Ole wants to play. the current form of Pogba and Bruno, you cannot do anything as Donny, just bide your time and take his chances when he gets them.
He keeps things simple, a quality player against teams that press.
Donny will suit the type of style Ole wants to play. the current form of Pogba and Bruno, you cannot do anything as Donny, just bide your time and take his chances when he gets them.
He keeps things simple, a quality player against teams that press.
There's no point in writing him off yet. We've seen him be a very good player at Ajax in the Champions league so we know he has talent. Yes he may ultimately not properly adapt to English football, but we have to give him time. Fred was well and truly written off by this point (by myself included) but look how he has turned it around. Van De Beek has been nowhere near as bad as Fred was at one point.
From the little that we have seen of him in our shirt, I think he probably has looked better in a deep role, but he hasn't had too much time in the number 10 position. I do think the performance yesterday may set him back a bit in terms of minutes as he really didn't deliver, which is unfortunate. Hope I'm wrong and he does continue to get chances though.
From the little that we have seen of him in our shirt, I think he probably has looked better in a deep role, but he hasn't had too much time in the number 10 position. I do think the performance yesterday may set him back a bit in terms of minutes as he really didn't deliver, which is unfortunate. Hope I'm wrong and he does continue to get chances though.
He needs to be doing a lot more. Some clever touches here and there and clearly good in possession but he’s got to make more of an impact on the game and assert some authority. I’m not expecting Bruno as they’re very different players but I am expecting some kind of end product.
I’d keep him in against Sheffield, mind you. Give him another chance to make a mark and get some numbers on the board.
I’d keep him in against Sheffield, mind you. Give him another chance to make a mark and get some numbers on the board.
it was strange because you must be the only one who thinks that was brilliant. It wasn’t.
there’s no need to overrate him. He needs to do better. But will get his chances.
It’s frustrating to read a lot of the negative stuff about him, but that’s not me. So I can understand people defending him, but be realistic about his performances
very patronising when someone comes out with “did you even watch the game”.
This. Looks neat and tidy but there’s no personality or authority to his play which to be honest is not that surprising. He is the definition of a system player. He’s not actually really suited to our style because of that reason.
Hes always passive and invisible playing as a 10. Can probably go back and look at his touch count in games hes played as a 10 compared to a deeper role. Yesterday he played 65 minutes, and had just 23 touches. Bruno played 25 minutes and had 21 touches. The only players with fewer touches in the game for both clubs were the subs, due to minutes played. He just doesn't get involved when he plays as a #10, he doesn't know how to play the position. We need to stop putting him there as its essentially a waste of a spot. As a deeper mid, different story. He has the raw attributes to succeed there and in his limited time he showed much more of a willingness to get on the ball and move it around. But let's stop with the Donny #10 experiment, it doesn't work and will never work. It's a waste of a played. Id rather play Lingard there.
As depth for the #10, Pereira and Lingard get involved far more than Van de Beek does whenever he plays there.
He is the one player I'm quite excited to see after a pre-season with the rest of the team.
Hopefully it balances his gameplay from a system player to a player that can feel our gameplay much better from the start.
Hopefully it balances his gameplay from a system player to a player that can feel our gameplay much better from the start.
Agree, and I have went with that in my lineup prediction for Sheffield United. Would be a classy midfield duo, though I think Ole will start with Fred instead of Donny
Van de Beek was very successful as a #10 for Ajax. However, he still needs to adapt to the way we play as opposed to the style Ajax plays.
As others have noticed, Van de Beek at #10 is closer to Thomas Muller than Bruno Fernandes. He's excellent at finding space in and around the box, making the late run on the blindside and scoring goals. What Van de Beek won't do is become Holland's Juan Roman Riquelme. Expecting him to dominate the ball, set the tempo of our attacks and create tons of opportunities for others is expecting him to be something he isn't. Even when he was playing as an #8 last season he didn't play the position in that way. He was neat, he was tidy and he created the kind of passing triangles that Ajax like to use to advance up the field. That's not Man Utd football though. We're a team that's happy to use 4 passes to get up field rather than 14 e.g. our first two goals yesterday.
What Van de Beek offers is depth, variation and quality in the box. We saw that in the opening month of the season where he scored on his debut, then forced the issue late on at Brighton that earned us a corner that led to the penalty we won from. Those are things that, sadly, Lingard and Andreas just don't offer. Believe me, I'd love it if they did cos I love to see our academy thrive. However, Van de Beek is a massive level up from them. As those early season examples show Donny's an attacking midfield option you can bring on to help you get a goal. That's not something you can say about Lingard or Andreas.
He isn't a 10 for me...
And if he is, he's only a 10 in a game where we'll completely dominate... but yeah, overall he seems to have attribute more akin to a central midfielder rather then an attacking one.
And if he is, he's only a 10 in a game where we'll completely dominate... but yeah, overall he seems to have attribute more akin to a central midfielder rather then an attacking one.
Looks like he will need a season to bed in, just like Fred. I wouldn't right him off just yet.
Ajax #10 is not the same as United #10. More like an 8 here. Worked like a charm with Tadic as a false 9.
Gotta love the term negatrons. Nobody should be banned for hating VdB.
We have two world class midfielders in Bruno and Pogba and neither should nor will be dropped under any circumstances other than fitness or rest. Donny could put on consecutive worldie performances while Bruno is out with injury and there’s zero chance Bruno wouldn’t go straight back into the starting XI over Donny, rightly so.
Donny put in a very decent shift for us against Liverpool while we scored two goals. He was in exactly the right place for the pass from Greenwood, who chose the shot instead which led to nothing. But he does not have the long ball and crossing nous of Bruno (who’s better in other aspects of play of course) which led to a fantastic chance for Cavani. And the free kick genius.
United aren’t exactly a route one attacking team, but there is a consistent long ball, counterattacking quality of our play. We struggle against sides which sit back on us and dare us to pick their pockets. We can use Donny, along with Bruno and Pogba, to pick the pockets of the bus parkers and we don’t need both Fred and McTominay on such occasions.
Agree.
Ajax's entire system of football is about getting players closer together, which is why the Tadic link up worked so well: Players coming short and creating angles for ball play is the essence of the Ajax/Dutch/Barcelona system.
Man Utd's philosophy is basically the opposite. Old Trafford has a big pitch and the whole philosophy of United is to 'make the pitch bigger'. Get on the outside, make runs off the ball. United is not one of those 'make the ball do the work teams'. Its actually pretty much the opposite. When we're on the ball we expand (and the opposite on the ball). There's very little that's patient or deliberate about our traditional style, which is partly why Louis Van Gaal was such a culture shock -- only partly though.
Donny can, and will, be very successful as a #10 at Man Utd in games where we dominate and are therefore able to make the pitch small. Where we pen teams back into their own area and can advance our centre backs, Donny will be able to turn and spin and move off the ball and find space to get shots off. He's excellent at that and he will score lots of goals arriving into areas where he's unexpected. When I think of the great #10s that have played for Ajax like Jari Litmanen, I can't remember any of them that plays like Bruno does. A single player wanting so much of the ball would have a massive impact on the system as a whole, and the way other players are meant to rotate positions to make space. Hence why we have those stories of Van Gaal not allowing players to run with the ball in training etc.
Its a different philosophy, a different way of playing. IMO Van Gaal takes it to extremes. The Cruyff version is easier on the eye. However, Donny has been brought up with that and he'll need a period of adjustment. Once he has settled properly he'll be scoring 10-15 goals a season from advanced areas.
He’s a classical Right/left sided midfielder in a midfield 3. Not really any good at defending, not really any good at risk taking (eliminates him from CDM and #10 positions automatically).
Yet we don’t have a set up that allows him to play the role he’s been designed for.
I said this when we signed him. We have no room for him with Pogba/Bruno/Matic/Scott/Fred.
His best shot is picking up rotation games against lower opposition which we expect to dominate.
Yet we don’t have a set up that allows him to play the role he’s been designed for.
I said this when we signed him. We have no room for him with Pogba/Bruno/Matic/Scott/Fred.
His best shot is picking up rotation games against lower opposition which we expect to dominate.
Only a handful of players come to Utd and need absolutely no time at all to settle/integrate - VDB just need to continue to work hard and keep improving and he'll make a valuable contributuon.
It must be hard for him because he's essentially the replacement for Bruno, but he couldn't be more different. You're point here is accurate, but not necessarily through his lack of awareness or ability.
He's not all action like Bruno, he's a player who can navigate his way through a game and score/assist, without being involved and shooting all of the time.
He was ok.
More and more though he looks like a Kagawa style signing. Technically very good and odd moments here and there where he's impressive.
But ultimately too timid , unsure of his best position and not good enough for Utd.
I'm not writing him off because it's way too early for that but he really has to start doing more when he gets the chance to impress. Too often the game drifts by him.
More and more though he looks like a Kagawa style signing. Technically very good and odd moments here and there where he's impressive.
But ultimately too timid , unsure of his best position and not good enough for Utd.
I'm not writing him off because it's way too early for that but he really has to start doing more when he gets the chance to impress. Too often the game drifts by him.
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