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Zehner

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You’ve gotta be slightly simple to imagine Dortmund wouldn’t have sold after that fake deadline if a 100m+ bid came in :lol:

As you say, clear as day it was an impasse. Dortmund thought United were bullshitting and threw the deadline in as a ploy, United weren’t.

This nonsense would make sense if it had been widely reported that United bid 100m on deadline day and Dortmund turned it down because ”deadline”, but from all reports, nothing whatsoever happened on Sancho in the final weeks.
:lol: :lol:
 

Acrobat7

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Are they just giving the caretaker to end of the season then? Seems a bit dangerous given how poor their league form is.
I am afraid they have to since i expect they have Rose coming in over the summer. They put themselves in a stupid position
 

B. Munich

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Are you still believing that fairytale? :lol:

Dortmund wanted silly money, and no deadline would have had them refusing silly money.

United simply refused to pay silly money.

It had feck all to do with a Dortmund deadline. Are you honestly bullshitting yourself that Dortmund would have turned down 100m+ after that deadline? You can’t be that daft surely? It was a ploy, one that didn’t work.
As Man Utd never did a bid we will never know. We can only guess.
I believe Man Utd never made a bid, because they got the information Dortmund wouldn't sell the player anymore. Maybe also because your management knew Dortmund wouldn't sell the player to the price Man Utd is willing to pay.

Be it because of the deadline or Man Utd offered not enough money? Nobody knows and will ever know.

At the end the old English saying "Money talks, BS walks" is still very valid.
 

Pretzels81

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I wonder how many players they will try to sell for 120 million this summer.
 

Sir Marcus

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What are the main differences between a club like A.Madrid and Dortmund?

I don't know loads about either club but to me it certainly looks like one has maintained it's ambitions of winning trophies, doesn't bend over for rival clubs and regularly competes for honours whilst the other just doesn't...?

Is there some fundamental reason for this? Could Dortmund take a leaf out of Atletico's book?


It's really funny to see some posts of United fans here. What a change in attitude compared to the time when Dortmund was everybody's darling. I mean looking at some of the reactions you'd think Dortmund is a rival of United. :p

The turnaround has been rather drastic - I think the 'holier than thou' attitude everyone associated with the club ( and league ) seems to omit is the biggest contributing factor...
 

Samid

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Guess I'm not alone this weekend, am I?
Nah it's easier to tolerate one team in poor form. Must be quite a bit more difficult when several of the teams you follow are in bad form. At least Bayern will most likely cheer you up this evening.
 

Zehner

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Nah it's easier to tolerate one team in poor form. Must be quite a bit more difficult when several of the teams you follow are in bad form. At least Bayern will most likely cheer you up this evening.
I don't think so. It's the hope that kills you, isn't it? At least in the Bundesliga you know beforehand that the evil guy will win and don't even get your hopes up when Bayern is struggling for a brief moment. You know that those arrogant assholes will win it anyway at the end of the day. But you guys, you geniunely thought you could finally get back at Liverpool, City and all the mean German fans who dared bursting your precious little filter bubble with their reasoning. That must hurt.
 

HerrLeinad

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What are the main differences between a club like A.Madrid and Dortmund?

I don't know loads about either club but to me it certainly looks like one has maintained it's ambitions of winning trophies, doesn't bend over for rival clubs and regularly competes for honours whilst the other just doesn't...?

Is there some fundamental reason for this? Could Dortmund take a leaf out of Atletico's book?
Atletico had to sell Griezmann to Barca...
They also lost players like Hernandez, Rodri, Partey, Diego Costa, De Gea and so on. I'd also argue that Dortmund develops the kind of players that usually create more interest from other clubs (ie flashy attacking/creative players).

But he main difference to Dortmund is really just the difference between one club still having their legendary coach and the other losing his. I think every United fan should understand the importance of having a "Ferguson" type of coach/manager at your club.
Dortmund simply doesn't have the raw financial power to constantly overperform (and that's what Simeone and Klopp always do at their respective clubs) without someone like Klopp.
It should also be mentioned that Dortmund eliminated pretty much all their debt in the last 10 years while Atletico carries debts of around 1 billion(!) €.

Besides that Atletico last won a national title in 2014 and they haven't even advanced once further than the quarterfinal in the copa del rey since 13/14 while last winning it in 12/13 (and they are already out to a lower league team this season). Dortmund at least won the german cup in 2017.
Atletico might likely win the league this year and cudos to Simeone but it also coincedes with Barca and Real both being worse than in the last 10 years while Atletico is having its best season since their last league title in 2014. Dortmund's last serious challenge was in 2015/16 with 78 pts in 34 games which still a record for a 2nd placed team in the Bundesliga (15/16 was also the last season of a proper title challenge by Atletico).
And just to mention it... we (Bayern) had more problems in the league game vs Dortmund than in the CL vs Atletico this season. Atletico is simply extremely efficient this season in getting results but I still have doubts about their ability vs other top teams (see the games vs us and Real) and I don't think they'll keep up this form for the whole season (Atletico has started to slip up defensively in recent weeks so I'm curious to see if they will stabilise or inevitably start to drop more points).

But yeah even with Simeone at Atletico and Dortmund struggling to find the right coach in the last few years (Tuchel was a good pick and did win their last trophy/got that point record as 2nd in the BL) there isn't too much between them and that might only change this year though it shouldn't be forgotten that a lot of people started to question Simeone last year and wondered whether or not he still had it in him to make Atletico competitive once again (there were certainly a lot of discussions aboit that when Atleitco struggled last season).
So let's keep in mind that things can change fast in football.
 
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Hansi Fick

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What are the main differences between a club like A.Madrid and Dortmund?

I don't know loads about either club but to me it certainly looks like one has maintained it's ambitions of winning trophies, doesn't bend over for rival clubs and regularly competes for honours whilst the other just doesn't...?

Is there some fundamental reason for this? Could Dortmund take a leaf out of Atletico's book?
I'd say the main difference is Diego Simeone.
In terms of finances and player sales, Atletico have sold key players much more routinely and constantly. I mean, for a while, with Aguero, Falcao and Diego Costa in a row, it seemed like Atletico was supplying Europe's football with its best strikers year after year, usually acquiring them from Porto before..

The list goes from recent sales Partey, Morata, Griezmann (to Barca), Hernandez, Rodri via Carrasco, Theo (to Real), Jackson Martinez, Turan, Diego Costa, Filipe Luis all the way to Falcao, Aguero and De Gea, all within 10 years.
And I'm not counting the more casual, low key sales like Alderweireld, OliverTorres, or Diego Jota and Raul Jimenez..

Think about that starting 11 for a while..
It's Simeone keeping them competing, nothing else, and the winning part is this season purely down to Real and Barca simultaneously having their worst collapses in a decade.
 

Samid

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I don't think so. It's the hope that kills you, isn't it? At least in the Bundesliga you know beforehand that the evil guy will win and don't even get your hopes up when Bayern is struggling for a brief moment. You know that those arrogant assholes will win it anyway at the end of the day. But you guys, you geniunely thought you could finally get back at Liverpool, City and all the mean German fans who dared bursting your precious little filter bubble with their reasoning. That must hurt.
:lol: Really poor trolling effort. You should have at least mentioned the CL exit because that's the only time I've been disappointed and felt we bottled it. No sane United supporter thought we'd win the league this season. We finished 33 points behind last year, had an awful summer window and started the season disastrously being in the bottom 5 going into the October international break. We had several glaring holes in our starting XI going into this season and didn't address a single one of them. Our only upgrade was a 34 y/o striker from the French league who has missed half the season through arriving late, self isolation, an injury and then a pointless suspension. Even when we were briefly top everyone could see our defence was rubbish and our forwards simply weren't scoring goals, that's not sustainable over 38 games. I'd have happily taken the current table if offered at the start of the season.

You must know everything about 'bubbles bursting' and 'hope that kills' considering your main club is the greatest choker around in the past 30 or so years. So close but yet so far on so many occasions. I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to be a so called 'big' club with a mere 2 trophies in almost 120 years of history. I can totally see why you'd feel the need to start supporting another team on top of Leverkusen. Hope for your sake one of Leverkusen or Dortmund somehow manage top 4 so this doesn't end up being yet another disappointing season.
 

Zehner

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:lol: Really poor trolling effort. You should have at least mentioned the CL exit because that's the only time I've been disappointed and felt we bottled it. No sane United supporter thought we'd win the league this season. We finished 33 points behind last year, had an awful summer window and started the season disastrously being in the bottom 5 going into the October international break. We had several glaring holes in our starting XI going into this season and didn't address a single one of them. Our only upgrade was a 34 y/o striker from the French league who has missed half the season through arriving late, self isolation, an injury and then a pointless suspension. Even when we were briefly top everyone could see our defence was rubbish and our forwards simply weren't scoring goals, that's not sustainable over 38 games. I'd have happily taken the current table if offered at the start of the season.

You must know everything about 'bubbles bursting' and 'hope that kills' considering your main club is the greatest choker around in the past 30 or so years. So close but yet so far on so many occasions. I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to be a so called 'big' club with a mere 2 trophies in almost 120 years of history. I can totally see why you'd feel the need to start supporting another team on top of Leverkusen. Hope for your sake one of Leverkusen or Dortmund somehow manage top 4 so this doesn't end up being yet another disappointing season.
Apparently it worked, so..

I like your theory but I think me following many clubs has more to with my interest in the sport outdoing the partisanship for my club - unlike most United fans in here. I just like watching great players and great teams. You seem to think that translates to some sort of emotional involvement beyond said interest which you could use to provoke me but that's wrong. I'm not picky, I lose interest once a team or player regresses over a sustained period of time and move on to the next. That's also why I already forgot about you guys going out against Leipzig in the CL. For a neutral who's more interested in football than club culture etc. United hasn't been really interesting for quite a while. This section of your forum used to be great though.

So if you want to trigger me, you should just say something stupid or irrational instead. From what I've read, I'm sure that's no problem for you.
 

Samid

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So if you want to trigger me, you should just say something stupid or irrational instead. From what I've read, I'm sure that's no problem for you.
You must get triggered quite a lot then seeing as you've got over 3k posts.

Anyway, this is a Dortmund thread. Just like their twitter account you seem more interested in talking about teams from different leagues than discussing Dortmund. I'm not interested in derailing the thread further.
 

Zehner

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You must get triggered quite a lot then seeing as you've got over 3k posts.

Anyway, this is a Dortmund thread. Just like their twitter account you seem more interested in talking about teams from different leagues than discussing Dortmund. I'm not interested in derailing the thread further.
The irony.
 

Sir Marcus

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Atletico had to sell Griezmann to Barca...
They also lost players like Hernandez, Rodri, Partey, Diego Costa, De Gea and so on. I'd also argue that Dortmund develops the kind of players that usually create more interest from other clubs (ie flashy attacking/creative players).

But he main difference to Dortmund is really just the difference between one club still having their legendary coach and the other losing his. I think every United fan should understand the importance of having a "Ferguson" type of coach/manager at your club.
Dortmund simply doesn't have the raw financial power to constantly overperform (and that's what Simeone and Klopp always do at their respective clubs) without someone like Klopp.
It should also be mentioned that Dortmund eliminated pretty much all their debt in the last 10 years while Atletico carries debts of around 1 billion(!) €.

Besides that Atletico last won a national title in 2014 and they haven't even advanced once further than the quarterfinal in the copa del rey since 13/14 while last winning it in 12/13 (and they are already out to a lower league team this season). Dortmund at least won the german cup in 2017.
Atletico might likely win the league this year and cudos to Simeone but it also coincedes with Barca and Real both being worse than in the last 10 years while Atletico is having its best season since their last league title in 2014. Dortmund's last serious challenge was in 2015/16 with 78 pts in 34 games which still a record for a 2nd placed team in the Bundesliga (15/16 was also the last season of a proper title challenge by Atletico).
And just to mention it... we (Bayern) had more problems in the league game vs Dortmund than in the CL vs Atletico this season. Atletico is simply extremely efficient this season in getting results but I still have doubts about their ability vs other top teams (see the games vs us and Real) and I don't think they'll keep up this form for the whole season (Atletico has started to slip up defensively in recent weeks so I'm curious to see if they will stabilise or inevitably start to drop more points).

But yeah even with Simeone at Atletico and Dortmund struggling to find the right coach in the last few years (Tuchel was a good pick and did win their last trophy/got that point record as 2nd in the BL) there isn't too much between them and that might only change this year though it shouldn't be forgotten that a lot of people started to question Simeone last year and wondered whether or not he still had it in him to make Atletico competitive once again (there were certainly a lot of discussions aboit that when Atleitco struggled last season).
So let's keep in mind that things can change fast in football.

I'd say the main difference is Diego Simeone.
In terms of finances and player sales, Atletico have sold key players much more routinely and constantly. I mean, for a while, with Aguero, Falcao and Diego Costa in a row, it seemed like Atletico was supplying Europe's football with its best strikers year after year, usually acquiring them from Porto before..

The list goes from recent sales Partey, Morata, Griezmann (to Barca), Hernandez, Rodri via Carrasco, Theo (to Real), Jackson Martinez, Turan, Diego Costa, Filipe Luis all the way to Falcao, Aguero and De Gea, all within 10 years.
And I'm not counting the more casual, low key sales like Alderweireld, OliverTorres, or Diego Jota and Raul Jimenez..

Think about that starting 11 for a while..
It's Simeone keeping them competing, nothing else, and the winning part is this season purely down to Real and Barca simultaneously having their worst collapses in a decade.


Thanks for your replies.

Why was Griezmann's buyout so high compared to the buyouts that Dortmund seem to set? From what I remember, didn't they also invest that money straight back into the team? I understand that Jao Felix hasn't set the world alight but Atletico certainly seemed to show a level of ambition with that transfer not often seen from Dortmund IMO.

I certainly also value the point made regarding Simeone but from what I know he is by far the best paid manager in the world...? Again Atletico showing a level of ambition and commitment that I don't really see from German clubs outside of Bayern..? Even the Suarez acquisition displayed an intent to win rarely seen from Dortmund, who probably wouldn't invest in Suarez as it will cost them money rather than make them money in a couple of years.

I think it is also worth mentioning that Atletico has obviously been competing with 2 super clubs in Real and Barca whilst Dortmund only had Bayern to contend with, and they managed to win a league title and reach CL finals with both those teams relatively at their peak. They also won the Europa league and have managed to finish 2nd ahead of these teams on more than one occasion over the last few years.

From a fans point of view, I think would rather the cub I support operate a bit more like Atletico than Dortmund. They do sell players but it doesn't seem to be so ingrained into their business plan and they a show a level of ambition with any money they receive which isn't matched by a team like Dortmund. Combine this with the fact they have had more recent success than Dortmund makes it a bit of a no brainer personally.

I know there is a massive trend in recent years of fans seemingly more worried about club finances etc than on the pitch success but that doesn't apply to me - one of the privileges of supporting the richest club in the world I guess..
 
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groovyalbert

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Apparently it worked, so..

I like your theory but I think me following many clubs has more to with my interest in the sport outdoing the partisanship for my club - unlike most United fans in here. I just like watching great players and great teams. You seem to think that translates to some sort of emotional involvement beyond said interest which you could use to provoke me but that's wrong. I'm not picky, I lose interest once a team or player regresses over a sustained period of time and move on to the next. That's also why I already forgot about you guys going out against Leipzig in the CL. For a neutral who's more interested in football than club culture etc. United hasn't been really interesting for quite a while. This section of your forum used to be great though.

So if you want to trigger me, you should just say something stupid or irrational instead. From what I've read, I'm sure that's no problem for you.
If you're interested in following even partly interesting/entertaining football, why do you even bother with the Bundesliga at all if you don't have any lasting attachment to a club?

Remember when that was the only football to watch during the first lockdown.

Lockdown was more entertaining.
 

Zehner

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Thanks for your replies.

Why was Griezmann's buyout so high compared to the buyouts that Dortmund seem to set? From what I remember, didn't they also invest that money straight back into the team? I understand that Jao Felix hasn't set the world alight but Atletico certainly seemed to show a level of ambition with that transfer not often seen from Dortmund IMO.

I certainly also value the point made regarding Simeone but from what I know he is by far the best paid manager in the world...? Again Atletico showing a level of ambition and commitment that I don't really see from German clubs outside of Bayern..? Even the Suarez acquisition displayed an intent to win rarely seen from Dortmund, who probably wouldn't invest in Suarez as it will cost them money rather than make them money in a couple of years.

I think it is also worth mentioning that Atletico has obviously been competing with 2 super clubs in Real and Barca whilst Dortmund only had Bayern to contend with, and they managed to win a league title and reach CL finals with both those teams relatively at their peak. They also won the Europa league and have managed to finish 2nd ahead of these teams on more than one occasion over the last few years.

From a fans point of view, I think would rather the cub I support operate a bit more like Atletico than Dortmund. They do sell players but it doesn't seem to be so ingrained into their business plan and they a show a level of ambition with any money they receive which isn't matched by a team like Dortmund. Combine this with the fact they have had more recent success than Dortmund makes it a bit of a no brainer personally.

I know there is a massive trend in recent years of fans seemingly more worried about club finances etc than on the pitch success but that doesn't apply to me - one of the privileges of supporting the richest club in the world I guess..
I think both teams are actually quite similar in the areas you mentioned. Dortmund sold Dembele for 140m and wanted 120m for Sancho last season so you can't really say that they sell cheap. Both teams also kept a star player for relatively long (Griezmann/Reus) and they tried to complement a talented squad with established but aged world class talent (Suarez/Hummels).

The main difference is that Atletico operates much riskier than Dortmund in terms of investments and debt. That's generally a characteristic of German clubs (Bayern actually has zero debt) and I'm not sure why. I'd say a company without any kind of debt is leaving money on the floor. But I'm not really an expert on the topic, might be the case that Spanish clubs have more legal leeway in accounting areas compared to their German counterparts.

Also worth mentioning that Diego Simeone as far as I know is the best paid coach in the world. Atletico pays him more than City pays Guardiola and Liverpool pays Klopp.
 

Zehner

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If you're interested in following even partly interesting/entertaining football, why do you even bother with the Bundesliga at all if you don't have any lasting attachment to a club?

Remember when that was the only football to watch during the first lockdown.

Lockdown was more entertaining.
I obviously have a club that I'm attached to and that's why I watch the Bundesliga. The Bundesliga is also quite innovative in regards to tactics and you can often observe great talents coming through. But you're right, I probably wouldn't watch German football if I wasn't a Leverkusen fan. If you give me the choice between watching a Bundesliga match between competitors and watching an entertaining foreign team (City, Liverpool, Barca, Madrid, PSG, Napoli until some time ago, now Chelsea under Tuchel), I go with the foreign match 9 out of 10 times.
 

Sir Marcus

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I think both teams are actually quite similar in the areas you mentioned. Dortmund sold Dembele for 140m and wanted 120m for Sancho last season so you can't really say that they sell cheap. Both teams also kept a star player for relatively long (Griezmann/Reus) and they tried to complement a talented squad with established but aged world class talent (Suarez/Hummels).

The main difference is that Atletico operates much riskier than Dortmund in terms of investments and debt. That's generally a characteristic of German clubs (Bayern actually has zero debt) and I'm not sure why. I'd say a company without any kind of debt is leaving money on the floor. But I'm not really an expert on the topic, might be the case that Spanish clubs have more legal leeway in accounting areas compared to their German counterparts.

Also worth mentioning that Diego Simeone as far as I know is the best paid coach in the world. Atletico pays him more than City pays Guardiola and Liverpool pays Klopp.

Fair points - seems like both clubs could learn a bit from each other maybe.

I do think Dortmund have a couple of real gems in Haaland and Sancho so if I was fan of theirs I would've been wanting the board to try and capitalise on these factors and show a bit more ambition in actually trying to win the big trophies: they did the first part right by staying strong when it comes to Sancho's price in the summer but just keeping Sancho isn't enough..


I did mention about Simeone being the best paid coach myself and thought that it again reflects a certain level of ambition on the clubs part.
 

groovyalbert

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I obviously have a club that I'm attached to and that's why I watch the Bundesliga. The Bundesliga is also quite innovative in regards to tactics and you can often observe great talents coming through. But you're right, I probably wouldn't watch German football if I wasn't a Leverkusen fan. If you give me the choice between watching a Bundesliga match between competitors and watching an entertaining foreign team (City, Liverpool, Barca, Madrid, PSG, Napoli until some time ago, now Chelsea under Tuchel), I go with the foreign match 9 out of 10 times.
Oh boo hiss boo for not rising to the bait :lol:
 

B. Munich

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:lol: Really poor trolling effort. You should have at least mentioned the CL exit because that's the only time I've been disappointed and felt we bottled it. No sane United supporter thought we'd win the league this season. We finished 33 points behind last year, had an awful summer window and started the season disastrously being in the bottom 5 going into the October international break.
You are right. Actually the HOW you failed to get out of the group is the biggest disappointment, because you were in an excellent position in the CL. Your win in Paris and the 5 nill trashing of Leipzig should have been enough to get you safely through the group stage.

And same accounts for your unexpected title charge. The disappointment I would feel, if I were a Man Utd fan, isn't so much not winning the title eventually but throwing away a golden chance to be in title race after disappointing previous seasons. The Everton match and even more so the games against the bottom 2 clubs showed your team can't handle the pressure. 2 points out of 9 from ready matches just isn't good enough. It's very much Leverkusen like.

Man City started the season even worse, had to play most of the season without strikers and had more injuries than you.

And no I'm not trolling here, I rather see a proper football club like Man Utd winning the title than your oil sponsored neighbors.
Dortmund and Leverkusen are bottlers, but so are Man Utd. Unfortunately.
 

Zehner

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Fair points - seems like both clubs could learn a bit from each other maybe.

I do think Dortmund have a couple of real gems in Haaland and Sancho so if I was fan of theirs I would've been wanting the board to try and capitalise on these factors and show a bit more ambition in actually trying to win the big trophies: they did the first part right by staying strong when it comes to Sancho's price in the summer but just keeping Sancho isn't enough..


I did mention about Simeone being the best paid coach myself and thought that it again reflects a certain level of ambition on the clubs part.
I guess you could interpret Dortmund's rather conservative approach to spending this way. Find that hard to judge since I'm really no expert on the topic and don't know if they could even operate like Atletico do. Worth mentioning that they tried doing that 20 years ago and almost went bankrupt as a consequence.

Anyway, offering Klopp a huge salary wouldn't have made a difference I fear. Dortmund was unlucky Klopp wanted to go after a season during which nothing went their way. I believe he genuinely thought it was for the better of the club. I'm sure Dortmund would've kept him if given the choice.

Oh boo hiss boo for not rising to the bait :lol:
That was new to me, had to google that phrase. Thought you voodoo cursed me at first :nervous:
 

Lay

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I think both teams are actually quite similar in the areas you mentioned. Dortmund sold Dembele for 140m and wanted 120m for Sancho last season so you can't really say that they sell cheap. Both teams also kept a star player for relatively long (Griezmann/Reus) and they tried to complement a talented squad with established but aged world class talent (Suarez/Hummels).

The main difference is that Atletico operates much riskier than Dortmund in terms of investments and debt. That's generally a characteristic of German clubs (Bayern actually has zero debt) and I'm not sure why. I'd say a company without any kind of debt is leaving money on the floor. But I'm not really an expert on the topic, might be the case that Spanish clubs have more legal leeway in accounting areas compared to their German counterparts.

Also worth mentioning that Diego Simeone as far as I know is the best paid coach in the world. Atletico pays him more than City pays Guardiola and Liverpool pays Klopp.
How much debt do Dortmund have? I know years ago they were on the verge of ruin but came out of that. Despite all the jokes about Dortmund, I really would like them or anyone in Germany (even Leipzig) to topple Bayern at some point
 

Sir Tanley Daft

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Fair points - seems like both clubs could learn a bit from each other maybe.

I do think Dortmund have a couple of real gems in Haaland and Sancho so if I was fan of theirs I would've been wanting the board to try and capitalise on these factors and show a bit more ambition in actually trying to win the big trophies: they did the first part right by staying strong when it comes to Sancho's price in the summer but just keeping Sancho isn't enough..

I did mention about Simeone being the best paid coach myself and thought that it again reflects a certain level of ambition on the clubs part.
I really don't mean to pick you out specifically but I see this comment over and over in this forum and I'm just wondering: what do people mean when they say 'Dortmund shows a lack of ambition'? What would constitute showing ambition in your or anyone else's mind that says this? I'm genuinely asking here because I feel people are confusing ambition with success in this context. If your question is why are Dortmund not more successful, I think there are loads of reasons - some self-inflicted and some circumstantial. However, if no-one who is not successful can be ambitious it makes the use of the word ambitious somewhat obsolete.
 
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Zehner

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How much debt do Dortmund have? I know years ago they were on the verge of ruin but came out of that. Despite all the jokes about Dortmund, I really would like them or anyone in Germany (even Leipzig) to topple Bayern at some point
I don't really know. Another poster recently said that Dortmund almost eliminated all their debt by now. Before Covid hit as hard as it did, there were rumours that Dortmund was in the race for Havertz who was priced at around 110m that time by us. Personally I think they would've finally opened their pockets if it wasn't for the pandemic last year and started investing big. After all they worked their way up and nowadays can compete with clubs like Arsenal monetarily.

However, some people claim that their business model is dependent on selling the talents they develop for huge money. I don't know if that's true but it would shed a different light on them. To me it certainly is a riddle how a club like Atletico which spent much more in the past, has less revenue but more debt can still outperform Dortmund financially. Some things don't add up. If Dortmund had to sell players to finance their operations, I'd expect Atletico has, too.

Oh, and I'd love any club to kick Bayern off their throne. At this point I'm not picky anymore, I'd even root for the HSV or Schalke if they were to challenge Bayern.
 

hubbuh

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I obviously have a club that I'm attached to and that's why I watch the Bundesliga. The Bundesliga is also quite innovative in regards to tactics and you can often observe great talents coming through. But you're right, I probably wouldn't watch German football if I wasn't a Leverkusen fan. If you give me the choice between watching a Bundesliga match between competitors and watching an entertaining foreign team (City, Liverpool, Barca, Madrid, PSG, Napoli until some time ago, now Chelsea under Tuchel), I go with the foreign match 9 out of 10 times.
Are Liverpool entertaining (if you're including Tuchel's Chelsea form is obviously a factor)?! They've flattered to deceive for about a year now. I've only seen a couple of Chelsea's games under Tuchel but will have to catch a few more by the looks of it.
 

Zehner

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Are Liverpool entertaining (if you're including Tuchel's Chelsea form is obviously a factor)?! They've flattered to deceive for about a year now. I've only seen a couple of Chelsea's games under Tuchel but will have to catch a few more by the looks of it.
It's maybe a bit early for Chelsea but I watched two or three games under Tuchel and it looked really promising. But I'm generally giving Tuchel the benefit of the doubt. He was like a light version of Guardiola in the Bundesliga. Visited his training sessions during his free year, etc. And that brand of football is still my favourite to this date.

Liverpool is less easy on the eye but they possess insane individual quality, IMO. I also expect them to become a much more attractive side once they overcome their injury crises and Thiago has settled in. Klopp was the same at Dortmund. They started as a hard working team which was excellent against the ball and in transition but eventually developed into a great possession team with great combination football, too, once Gündogan found his way into the team, Reus joined and Götze developed into their best and most dominant player. The Thiago signing to me is a move towards that direction by Klopp, too.
 

HerrLeinad

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Thanks for your replies.

Why was Griezmann's buyout so high compared to the buyouts that Dortmund seem to set? From what I remember, didn't they also invest that money straight back into the team? I understand that Jao Felix hasn't set the world alight but Atletico certainly seemed to show a level of ambition with that transfer not often seen from Dortmund IMO.
Dortmund didn't really have players with any buyouts since Götze. Halaand is really the first one and we all know that Halaand (Raiola) were only willing to do a deal with a buyout clause, I mean the rumors say that's actually the reason why United didn't get him (weren't willing to agree to it). Halaands bo is also pretty high, it's still rumored to be 75m € in 2022 so not bad considering the circumstances.
You also need to keep in mind that players in Spain are required by law to all have a buyout clause which is the reason why you see some of those ridiculous BO clauses of several hundred million for pretty average players or just highly rated talents.

In regards to Felix/ambitious transfer targets... it's simply a different philosophy in regards to finances/risks. In case of Atletico their deals often involves other parties who get a proportion of any future sales. In the past Atletico "bought" players and didn't even own them so any money that came from those didn't even got to Atletico.
Falcao was a famous example of this:
https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2013/6/13/4399382/falcao-monaco-third-party-ownership

You should also remember that Dortmund did refuse to sell players in the past because of their ambition, that's why they lost a player like Lewandowski on a free transfer instead of selling him earlier. I also don't need to tell any United fan what happened in regards to Sancho and their refusal to sell for less than a stellar price.
I'd say Götze is really the one case where they didn't get what they really wanted but let's remember that his contract was signed at a time when Dortmund was still feeling the impact of their debts and 37m € was still a huge amount of money in 2013 (Hazard went for 35m € to Chelsea just one year earlier).

I certainly also value the point made regarding Simeone but from what I know he is by far the best paid manager in the world...? Again Atletico showing a level of ambition and commitment that I don't really see from German clubs outside of Bayern..? Even the Suarez acquisition displayed an intent to win rarely seen from Dortmund, who probably wouldn't invest in Suarez as it will cost them money rather than make them money in a couple of years.
I mean Suarez is comparable to getting back Hummels from Bayern and Sanchez doesn't earn more at Atletico than Reus at Dortmund. I'm also sure Dortmund would have paid Klopp pretty much what he wanted but in the end it's just not only about money either.

I think it is also worth mentioning that Atletico has obviously been competing with 2 super clubs in Real and Barca whilst Dortmund only had Bayern to contend with, and they managed to win a league title and reach CL finals with both those teams relatively at their peak. They also won the Europa league and have managed to finish 2nd ahead of these teams on more than one occasion over the last few years.
There is certainly an argument to be made that Dortmund should have done better in the league and internationally in the last few years but that's imo down to the difference between managers at the respective clubs. Dortmund under Klopp was simply a different beast (Dortmund actually managed to defend the title in 2012, let's not forget that) and even Tuchel's Dortmund was a lot closer to Simeone's Atleitco. You can also certainly make an argument that having Barca AND Real as national competition makes it harder but one needs to consider that we simply haven't had a bad season in any season since Dortmund title. Even our worst season since 12/13 still had us at 78 points after 34 games in 18/19. Klopp's Dortmund won its titles with 75 and 81 points (which was a new points record at the time and Klopp infamously said it might be one for the ages...).
In Spain Atletico has been behind Barca in every single season since their title in 2013/2014 so even without Real it would have never been enough to win the title. 2013/2014 was an exceptional three way races between the three (and Barca/Real did end up with an average points total that is the exact same as Bayern's worst season since 11/12) but that is really the exception, usually Barca is on a national level also very dominant which is why even Real only won 3 titles compared to Dortmund's 2 since 08/09!
Looking at the current season even a Barca in crises mode seems to be more likely to end up as 2nd behind Atletico than Real.

From a fans point of view, I think would rather the cub I support operate a bit more like Atletico than Dortmund. They do sell players but it doesn't seem to be so ingrained into their business plan and they a show a level of ambition with any money they receive which isn't matched by a team like Dortmund. Combine this with the fact they have had more recent success than Dortmund makes it a bit of a no brainer personally.

I know there is a massive trend in recent years of fans seemingly more worried about club finances etc than on the pitch success but that doesn't apply to me - one of the privileges of supporting the richest club in the world I guess..
I mean "ambition" here just means to take huge financial risks and really ignores Dortmund's past. Dortmund nearly went brankrupt in the early 2000s because they tried to force things through extreme investments into players and their wages because they wanted to compete with Bayern. The club was lucky to find Klopp and get back to its feet or else they'd be where Hamburg is now. If you aren't from Germany/don't follow german football it's maybe hard to understand how much it impacted Dortmund but it was a really dire situation (and it is not a case where "being bankrupt" is just hyperbolic language, it could have ended like with Leeds in the EPL).
The same is by the way true for Atleitco and Simeone. Look where Deportivo La Coruna is today or what Valencia's investor did to the club. Atletico gambled and won, good for them but it can also change at any time (like I said they have a mountain of debt) and Dortmund at least managed to stabilise the club at a high competitive level after Klopp so they at least found a sustainable way to be where they are. Will Atleitco manage to do the same if Simeone is gone?
Let me put it this way: If Dortmund had been more cautious in the early 2000s they might have been amongst the very, very top clubs today but instead they crashed and missed nearly a decade of financial development at a time where clubs could create enormous growth.
So maybe in the here and now Atletico's philosophy might give them a bit more success though I think that's really down to just Simeone but Dortmund has a much better foundation for sustaining it in the long term. They actually have a chance to develop into a top tier club but for that they need consistency and more time to develop the club. Bayern needed decades to achieve its status in world football, without sheikh you don't become an elite football club in just a couple of years.
 

Sir Marcus

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I really don't mean to pick you out specifically but I see this comment over and over in this forum and I'm just wondering: what do people mean when they say 'Dortmund shows a lack of ambition'? What would constitute showing ambition in your or anyone else's mind that says this? I'm genuinely asking here because I feel people are confusing ambition with success in this context. If your question is why are Dortmund not more successful, I think there are loads of reasons - some self-inflicted and some circumstantial. However, if no-one who is not successful can be ambitious it makes the use of the word ambitious somewhat obsolete.
To be fair, I'm not too sure..

That said, if I was a supporter I would want there to at least be some sort of plan implemented which may result in them challenging for the biggest trophies and overcoming Bayern - as it stands I can't currently see what that plan is and I sense an air of resignation to them...? I'll happily concede that this may be slightly unfair as I don't follow the Bundesliga much at all but that is certainly the impression I get. Even the fans seem to be fairly content to be second to Bayern..

They currently have two of the best talents in world football along with everything else that already makes them a great club and as a result my expectations of them are quite high. From what I have been hearing, they don't stand to make much from Sancho in the summer so if they kept him for another season and added some more first team quality in line with the new managers wishes then that would be a great start - maybe spend the Haaland money pre-emptively and really make a go of next season?

I think there is an element of truth to your point re success/ambition but as with most things, there is a middle ground. As I'v mentioned previously, I'm not an expert on club finances but from my point of view there seems to have been quite a few clubs in recent years that are not super clubs that have been relatively more successful/impactful than Dortmund in recent seasons and maybe that has skewed my overall impression and appraisal of Dortmund. I would say that in recent seasons, and again only from own viewpoint, teams like Atletico, Spurs, Leicester, Ajax, RB, Lyon all seem to have more notable achievements and it is actually odd for a club like Dortmund not have done done just a bit more...especially considering they the calibre of players they have had. Is that a result of lack of ambition? On reflection I would say it isn't the main contributing factor but it certainly is a factor.


Dortmund didn't really have players with any buyouts since Götze. Halaand is really the first one and we all know that Halaand (Raiola) were only willing to do a deal with a buyout clause, I mean the rumors say that's actually the reason why United didn't get him (weren't willing to agree to it). Halaands bo is also pretty high, it's still rumored to be 75m € in 2022 so not bad considering the circumstances.
You also need to keep in mind that players in Spain are required by law to all have a buyout clause which is the reason why you see some of those ridiculous BO clauses of several hundred million for pretty average players or just highly rated talents.

In regards to Felix/ambitious transfer targets... it's simply a different philosophy in regards to finances/risks. In case of Atletico their deals often involves other parties who get a proportion of any future sales. In the past Atletico "bought" players and didn't even own them so any money that came from those didn't even got to Atletico.
Falcao was a famous example of this:
https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2013/6/13/4399382/falcao-monaco-third-party-ownership

You should also remember that Dortmund did refuse to sell players in the past because of their ambition, that's why they lost a player like Lewandowski on a free transfer instead of selling him earlier. I also don't need to tell any United fan what happened in regards to Sancho and their refusal to sell for less than a stellar price.
I'd say Götze is really the one case where they didn't get what they really wanted but let's remember that his contract was signed at a time when Dortmund was still feeling the impact of their debts and 37m € was still a huge amount of money in 2013 (Hazard went for 35m € to Chelsea just one year earlier).



I mean Suarez is comparable to getting back Hummels from Bayern and Sanchez doesn't earn more at Atletico than Reus at Dortmund. I'm also sure Dortmund would have paid Klopp pretty much what he wanted but in the end it's just not only about money either.



There is certainly an argument to be made that Dortmund should have done better in the league and internationally in the last few years but that's imo down to the difference between managers at the respective clubs. Dortmund under Klopp was simply a different beast (Dortmund actually managed to defend the title in 2012, let's not forget that) and even Tuchel's Dortmund was a lot closer to Simeone's Atleitco. You can also certainly make an argument that having Barca AND Real as national competition makes it harder but one needs to consider that we simply haven't had a bad season in any season since Dortmund title. Even our worst season since 12/13 still had us at 78 points after 34 games in 18/19. Klopp's Dortmund won its titles with 75 and 81 points (which was a new points record at the time and Klopp infamously said it might be one for the ages...).
In Spain Atletico has been behind Barca in every single season since their title in 2013/2014 so even without Real it would have never been enough to win the title. 2013/2014 was an exceptional three way races between the three (and Barca/Real did end up with an average points total that is the exact same as Bayern's worst season since 11/12) but that is really the exception, usually Barca is on a national level also very dominant which is why even Real only won 3 titles compared to Dortmund's 2 since 08/09!
Looking at the current season even a Barca in crises mode seems to be more likely to end up as 2nd behind Atletico than Real.



I mean "ambition" here just means to take huge financial risks and really ignores Dortmund's past. Dortmund nearly went brankrupt in the early 2000s because they tried to force things through extreme investments into players and their wages because they wanted to compete with Bayern. The club was lucky to find Klopp and get back to its feet or else they'd be where Hamburg is now. If you aren't from Germany/don't follow german football it's maybe hard to understand how much it impacted Dortmund but it was a really dire situation (and it is not a case where "being bankrupt" is just hyperbolic language, it could have ended like with Leeds in the EPL).
The same is by the way true for Atleitco and Simeone. Look where Deportivo La Coruna is today or what Valencia's investor did to the club. Atletico gambled and won, good for them but it can also change at any time (like I said they have a mountain of debt) and Dortmund at least managed to stabilise the club at a high competitive level after Klopp so they at least found a sustainable way to be where they are. Will Atleitco manage to do the same if Simeone is gone?
Let me put it this way: If Dortmund had been more cautious in the early 2000s they might have been amongst the very, very top clubs today but instead they crashed and missed nearly a decade of financial development at a time where clubs could create enormous growth.
So maybe in the here and now Atletico's philosophy might give them a bit more success though I think that's really down to just Simeone but Dortmund has a much better foundation for sustaining it in the long term. They actually have a chance to develop into a top tier club but for that they need consistency and more time to develop the club. Bayern needed decades to achieve its status in world football, without sheikh you don't become an elite football club in just a couple of years.

This is very informative, thanks. You clearly know a fair bit more than me on the subject and I can't really argue with the various examples you raise though I don't fully agree with your analysis' of the two teams relative performances over the last few years.

Their financial situation in the the 00's is not something I was aware of and does provide a lot more context to the way the club operates now.
 

Cheimoon

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To be fair, I'm not too sure..

That said, if I was a supporter I would want there to at least be some sort of plan implemented which may result in them challenging for the biggest trophies and overcoming Bayern - as it stands I can't currently see what that plan is and I sense an air of resignation to them...? I'll happily concede that this may be slightly unfair as I don't follow the Bundesliga much at all but that is certainly the impression I get. Even the fans seem to be fairly content to be second to Bayern..

They currently have two of the best talents in world football along with everything else that already makes them a great club and as a result my expectations of them are quite high. From what I have been hearing, they don't stand to make much from Sancho in the summer so if they kept him for another season and added some more first team quality in line with the new managers wishes then that would be a great start - maybe spend the Haaland money pre-emptively and really make a go of next season?

I think there is an element of truth to your point re success/ambition but as with most things, there is a middle ground. As I'v mentioned previously, I'm not an expert on club finances but from my point of view there seems to have been quite a few clubs in recent years that are not super clubs that have been relatively more successful/impactful than Dortmund in recent seasons and maybe that has skewed my overall impression and appraisal of Dortmund. I would say that in recent seasons, and again only from own viewpoint, teams like Atletico, Spurs, Leicester, Ajax, RB, Lyon all seem to have more notable achievements and it is actually odd for a club like Dortmund not have done done just a bit more...especially considering they the calibre of players they have had. Is that a result of lack of ambition? On reflection I would say it isn't the main contributing factor but it certainly is a factor.
Other people can probably respond to this better, but I think a lot of this is about context. For example, I really don't think Dortmund fans are generally happy to come in second. They might accept the reality of the situation on a season to season basis, but so do United fans on here: people are resigned to the fact that United is likely not winning the EPL again, but no-one would accept that as a given for future seasons. I think it's no different for Dortmund, except they might realize they're a bit further off - just like many United fans here on the forum a few seasons ago thought it would take at least another season before another title challenge was in the cards. In any case, I don't think Dortmund fans are resigned to being second long-term.

I don't know Dortmund's financial situation, and whether something like banking on a big fee for Håland's transfer makes sense for them; but as for the clubs you're comparing them with: Atlético's debt has been discussed by others; Spurs have achieved no more than Dortmund (they had their peak in the past couple of years and won nothing; Dortmund during their Klopp peak got a lot further); Leicester won a freak season and have otherwise achieved nothing more than Dortmund before or after; Ajax's success was a two-off (EL final and CL semifinal), and they have been pretty low-key before and after; RB has only just gotten on the scene, so longevity remains to be determined (with their relatively poor squad, the eventual replacement of Nagelsmann is going to be a difficult moment), and Lyon have been out of anything important for ages, until last year's sudden CL semifinal. So I'm not sure what these teams can teach Dortmund. If anything, to me, the lesson is that longevity at the European top is very hard to achieve for a club that's not already established at the top.

I don't mean to say by all of this that Dortmund are doing great btw. They've clearly messed up in the past few years, probably especially through their managerial appointments. They're underachieving and have pushed themselves down into being one among many in the German subtop (with the top consisting of just Bayern Munich). But while some good decisions should allow them to establish themselves as the best-of-the-rest again fairly easily, I think the next step up, to consistently competing with Bayern and doing well in Europe - that's much harder than people are making it out to be.
 
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Sir Tanley Daft

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To be fair, I'm not too sure..

That said, if I was a supporter I would want there to at least be some sort of plan implemented which may result in them challenging for the biggest trophies and overcoming Bayern - as it stands I can't currently see what that plan is and I sense an air of resignation to them...? I'll happily concede that this may be slightly unfair as I don't follow the Bundesliga much at all but that is certainly the impression I get. Even the fans seem to be fairly content to be second to Bayern..

They currently have two of the best talents in world football along with everything else that already makes them a great club and as a result my expectations of them are quite high. From what I have been hearing, they don't stand to make much from Sancho in the summer so if they kept him for another season and added some more first team quality in line with the new managers wishes then that would be a great start - maybe spend the Haaland money pre-emptively and really make a go of next season?

I think there is an element of truth to your point re success/ambition but as with most things, there is a middle ground. As I'v mentioned previously, I'm not an expert on club finances but from my point of view there seems to have been quite a few clubs in recent years that are not super clubs that have been relatively more successful/impactful than Dortmund in recent seasons and maybe that has skewed my overall impression and appraisal of Dortmund. I would say that in recent seasons, and again only from own viewpoint, teams like Atletico, Spurs, Leicester, Ajax, RB, Lyon all seem to have more notable achievements and it is actually odd for a club like Dortmund not have done done just a bit more...especially considering they the calibre of players they have had. Is that a result of lack of ambition? On reflection I would say it isn't the main contributing factor but it certainly is a factor.
For some reason the non-reflective use of phrases annoy me a lot, so apologies for being the target of my nitpicking.

Anyway, as others have pointed out already the main reason for Dortmund's cautious approach when it comes to risk management goes back to their near insolvency back in 2005 when Watzke the CEO came into his current position. Nearly all the top level guys (Zorc - sporting director, Watzke - CEO, Rauball - president) played a major role in the turnaround of the club's fortunes and thus were shaped by this experience. United fans might not be able to relate to this as their club simply is too big to fail but Dortmund were genuinely one unfavourable outcome of a vote (from investors of an external company no less) away from being relegated to the lowest league.
Up until recently most financial decisions were made with downside protection in mind, meaning sacrificing maybe the highest possible return for a lower but safer return which leads to more long-term stability. A good example here are their main sponsorship deals where they opted for long-term deals knowing full well they left some value on the table.
However, I do feel we are about to see some changes in strategy in the coming years as the guys currently in charge are more and more realising that this strategy not only limits Dortmund's development severely but might actually be hurting them when new competition is arriving that is actually willing to invest (i.e. Leipzig). Also, the old guard is about to go into retirement in the coming 5 years (Zorc, Watzke, Rauball) and while their replacements may have been shaped by the old way of thinking they will certainly have their own ideas of what is best for the club.
 
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Zehner

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:drool: delicious
You think assholes are delicious? :nervous:

I mean, now that I think of it, it makes sense I guess. All the shit coming out of the mouths of Bayern fans has to be coming from somewhere :smirk:
 

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You think assholes are delicious? :nervous:

I mean, now that I think of it, it makes sense I guess. All the shit coming out of the mouths of Bayern fans has to be coming from somewhere :smirk:
Ballack, Zé Roberto, Lucio, Wirtz :drool: