DP Draft - R1: Physiocrat vs Jim Beam

[GodShaveTheQueen]

-----------------------------------PHYSIOCRAT----------------------------------------------------------------------------JIM BEAM---------------------------------------

PHYSIOCRAT TACTICS

Tactics – Direct/ Mixed
Formation – 433
Defensive Line Balanced
Marking – Zonal

Pace, creativity and goals, goals, goals. Ronaldinho and Best supplied by the midfield supported by the full-backs will be a serious threat all game. Scholes’s immaculate diagonals on the counter, in addition to Nedved and Tigana’s shorter game they will be hard to keep out all game. Nedved will play an LCM role shifting between LM and CM as he sees fit.

Let’s not also forget that Diego Forlan was a complete and deadly striker. Joint-top scorer in the 2010 World Cup with 5 goals including a goal in both the quarters and semis, in addition to being named player of the tournament. Pichichi winner in 04-05 and 08-09. At his three year consecutive peak at Atletico Madrid between 07-10 he scored 66 goals in 102 league games. He was also one of the most two footed players I have ever seen. If you have time watch this video – it also showcases some of his aerial ability. With his link-up play he will thrive with Best and Ronaldinho either side of him.


The back four is pretty self-explanatory with Bennarivo and Bessonov bombing on one at a time. Roberto Ayala is rarely picked but he has over 100 caps for Argentina and at his peak was a tenacious tackler and aerial best who was quick and could pass well – he was awarded the best defender in Europe in 2001. Partnered with Thiago Silva they really make a complete modern CB pair.

In the organised defensive phase we will revert to a 442 and compress the space.

Spoiler: Defensive phase

JIM BEAM TACTICS

Tactics: 3-4-2-1; extremely tough to break in the defensive phase while on the other hand, it can hurt the opponent either through quick transition or more patient build-up as a natural structure provides a lot of angles and passing lanes

The idea and the inspiration

Provide Messi and Xavi a different platform to shine (got seriously bored and annoyed with people putting Xavi and Messi in similar setups when both can thrive in different environments). Off goes Xavi with Himannv taking him right before my turn. Problem?

- not really as up steps Luis Suarez Miramontes who thrived in controlling the game for Grande Inter side of the '60s;
- Himannv thankfully and from what I see also plans to use Xavi in a different setup, so all is forgiven;

Inspirations - mainly Thomas Tuchel Chelsea side, but also Guardiola, Conte and Pat Mustard

How do the tactics work?

The tactic uses one additional CB to provide more defensive cover and is extremely tough to score against. At the same time, it is a nightmare to play against as the whole team is playing very narrow and close to each other in the central area while at the same time the opponent is pulled wide by the attacking wing-backs and down through the center with the movement of the striker.

Who benefits the most from the system?
You guessed it, folks... two AM's who have the license and freedom to roam behind the striker giving them a perfect platform to excel.

Requirements and personnel?

On the goalkeeper position comes Allison Becker, one of the greatest goalkeepers today, with his excellent positioning, distribution, and ability to play out from the back.

Back 3 (Dario Pereyra, Ricardo Carvalho, Giusseppe Bergomi), all have to be great defenders, first and foremost, but at the same time very good on the ball. Two wing-backs (Bixente Lizarazu and Leandro) need to have excellent stamina along with brilliant technical ability providing another attacking outlet for the team.

Midfield two is constructed out of a deep-lying playmaker (Luis Suarez Miramontes) and box-to-box midfielder with endless stamina (Søren Lerby).

The striker (Mario Kempes) needs to be aggressive and constantly attack the opponent's backline. He will not only be responsible for goalscoring duties but also for running and moving into the channels drawing opponent CB's on himself and disrupting the opposition backline. The space which opens up will be attacked by Lionel Messi and Bobby Charlton who will play in halfspaces behind the striker.
Using the younger, more mobile version of Messi here considering the team (both midfield and attack) will press high once the ball is lost trying to regain possession instantly or allowing our defence to settle back a bit while stopping the counters.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Good luck @Physiocrat @Jim Beam

 

[Physiocrat]

Interesting setup from Beam. I expected Messi as a sort of nominal partner for Kempes with Charlton at 10 but functionally it is the same.

I think though Suarez with a B2B role for Lerby is suboptimal as Suarez made his way up the pitch quite a bit at Inter and had, IIRC, Bedin as a DM next to him. If Lerby is bombing up and down it will restrict Suarez. It's not like a Kante and Jorginho pairing where the latter is much more positional reserved.

To clarify, are you intending to sit deep and then hit me on the break?

 

[Physiocrat]

Thanks for setting up

@GodShaveTheQueen

 

[harms]

Physio's midfield is beautiful.

 

[Jim Beam]

Good luck @Physiocrat, thanks for setting it scrappy.

First of all, nice team all together.

Interesting setup from Beam. I expected Messi as a sort of nominal partner for Kempes with Charlton at 10 but functionally it is the same.

Not really as this allows him to be a massive part of the build up, same with Charlton.

I think though Suarez with a B2B role for Lerby is suboptimal as Suarez made his way up the pitch quite a bit at Inter and had, IIRC, Bedin as a DM next to him. If Lerby is bombing up and down it will restrict Suarez. It's not like a Kante and Jorginho pairing where the latter is much more positional reserved.

This team draws most of the inspiration from Chelsea side and I won't lie, I would put Kante there if I had him. Still Lerby as an aggressive b2b with an endless stamina works mighty fine imo and provides what's necessary for the system to work. I don't agree he doesn't provide necessary cover for Suarez because he provided cover even for Olsen when he run forward in that Denmark team and that was the reason you sometimes saw him so deep for them. As for Suarez his duty is to control the team tempo and think that this role suits him to the teeth because he will see plenty of ball and with huge amount of openings, either on the flanks or from the personnel upfront.

To clarify, are you intending to sit deep and then hit me on the break?

When did you ever saw me sitting deep and just hitting on the counter? To clear it more, you can call it a more cautious and measured possession based approach because of the back 3, but at the same time the team will use triangles all over the pitch which provide passing lines and openings to cut you open and I expect to certainly have a bit more possession while keeping the defensive solidity at the back. With wingbacks providing width and danger from those areas, both Charlton and Messi will also be involved in the build up to make sure we keep some sort of superiority in possession.

Because of this I expect from you to maybe be more reserved, more deep and act on the counter or to end up chasing our players all over the pitch which isn't the best idea imo, but of course that's up to you.

What is certain also is that we will press you high once the ball is lost because we want to stop that Scholes ----> Best/Ronaldinho route when it opens up once you have the ball, but also to provide time for our wingbacks to come back. That is the area which will make or break the game one way or the other considering that Messi and Charlton are occupying mostly those half spaces around him and because of the importance of Scholes in your build up.

I do like and respect your team of course, just putting my two cents on how things might work out in the game and explaining my team dynamics more.

 

[Physiocrat]

Good luck @Physiocrat, thanks for setting it scrappy.

First of all, nice team all together.

Not really as this allows him to be a massive part of the build up, same with Charlton.

When I said nominal partner I didn't mean he wouldn't join in the build up but rather on average he would be closer to Kempes than Charlton would.

This team draws most of the inspiration from Chelsea side and I won't lie, I would put Kante there if I had him. Still Lerby as an aggressive b2b with an endless stamina works mighty fine imo and provides what's necessary for the system to work. I don't agree he doesn't provide necessary cover for Suarez because he provided cover even for Olsen when he run forward in that Denmark team and that was the reason you sometimes saw him so deep for them. As for Suarez his duty is to control the team tempo and think that this role suits him to the teeth because he will see plenty of ball and with huge amount of openings, either on the flanks or from the personnel upfront.

I'm no expert on the 1986 Denmark side but according to Jonathan Wilson in Inverting the Pyramid that side had Bertelsen screening the back three allowing Lerby to play his full B2B game. Now you could play Lerby as a DM alongside Suarez but that would clearly restrict his influence.

When did you ever saw me sitting deep and just hitting on the counter? To clear it more, you can call it a more cautious and measured possession based approach because of the back 3, but at the same time the team will use triangles all over the pitch which provide passing lines and openings to cut you open and I expect to certainly have a bit more possession while keeping the defensive solidity at the back. With wingbacks providing width and danger from those areas, both Charlton and Messi will also be involved in the build up to make sure we keep some sort of superiority in possession.

Because of this I expect from you to maybe be more reserved, more deep and act on the counter or to end up chasing our players all over the pitch which isn't the best idea imo, but of course that's up to you.

What is certain also is that we will press you high once the ball is lost because we want to stop that Scholes ----> Best/Ronaldinho route when it opens up once you have the ball, but also to provide time for our wingbacks to come back. That is the area which will make or break the game one way or the other considering that Messi and Charlton are occupying mostly those half spaces around him and because of the importance of Scholes in your build up.

I do like and respect your team of course, just putting my two cents on how things might work out in the game and explaining my team dynamics more.

That's cool. Thanks for the clarification, your side is very Tuchel esque (it just needs modding a bit at CM IMO - btw Carvalho is a great choice as a central CB in a modern back 3) I see both of our sides being relatively direct with a reasonable amount of turnovers. I don't intend to sit back and hit you on the break as a main tactic - when you have Best and Ronaldinho you play on the front foot. Whilst it is true that Scholes is very important to the working of the midfield both Thiago and Ayala were good on the ball so it is not as if he is the only outlet. Also Tigana can also drop deeper to be an option. So even if Scholes is blocked off I have many options. Also when I end up facing a well drilled back 5 one way which can always break the system is exceptional dribblers which Best and Ronaldinho are. I think the biggest mismatch would be when I break at speed, which will happen at least once, without the cover of Lizarazu, Pereya will be exposed to Best and that will certainly be a very viable route to goal for me.

 

[Himannv]

Not much in it between these two teams. Came down to Messi in the end.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

As much as I like Physio's midfield, reluctantly gave it to Jim as I dont see enough defensive cover in midfield from Physio to cover all of Charton/Suarez/Messi/lerby. Suarez's defensive work rate also played a role in my vote

 

[Jim Beam]

I'm no expert on the 1986 Denmark side but according to Jonathan Wilson in Inverting the Pyramid that side had Bertelsen screening the back three allowing Lerby to play his full B2B game. Now you could play Lerby as a DM alongside Suarez but that would clearly restrict his influence.

Bertselen (am talking about Denmark 1984 Euro team as I watched all of their games in that tournament) clearly played the most centrally, and along with that, was the most static out of all their players. However, once Olsen went forward it was Lerby who instantly and often dropped deeper collecting the ball from the defence in the offensive phase. That's the reason why you see him so deep at times in those clips against France. He still did roam a lot, but I think he was definitely at times a bit more restrictive in his duties then what was his usual role for the clubs (at least and certainly in some games that I've seen). All of Arnesen, Bergreen and Simonsen (when healthy) played more expansive and with more creative freedom. In any case, I don't see any issue with him as a classic b2b with endless stamina alongside Suarez.

That's cool. Thanks for the clarification, your side is very Tuchel esque (it just needs modding a bit at CM IMO - btw Carvalho is a great choice as a central CB in a modern back 3) I see both of our sides being relatively direct with a reasonable amount of turnovers. I don't intend to sit back and hit you on the break as a main tactic - when you have Best and Ronaldinho you play on the front foot. Whilst it is true that Scholes is very important to the working of the midfield both Thiago and Ayala were good on the ball so it is not as if he is the only outlet. Also Tigana can also drop deeper to be an option. So even if Scholes is blocked off I have many options. Also when I end up facing a well drilled back 5 one way which can always break the system is exceptional dribblers which Best and Ronaldinho are. I think the biggest mismatch would be when I break at speed, which will happen at least once, without the cover of Lizarazu, Pereya will be exposed to Best and that will certainly be a very viable route to goal for me.

Oh, I didn't mean to undervalue Tigana in any sense . He is a great fit here and with Nedved+Scholes forms a really complementary partnership. I also don't see you bunkered, although your defensive tactic in the opening post definitely looks like it (I mean, they all look like they are in their penalty area blocking Tim Howard, hm, Tim Howard, cough, cough...).
I would certainly see them functioning more as Sacchi Milan with Nedved, Scholes, Tigana, Best midfield. So, like aggresive and compact, zonal defending in a 4-4-2, with relatively high line. This is more like a suggestion if you go through.

Yeah, I can see you being very dangerous on the break, but same goes for my team with those long balls for Kempes pulling the defence in the channels and then with Charlton and Messi joining him behind (or once the ball goes with first pass to one Charlton/Messi). One of those cases where you can say that your team is capable of playing it slowly through the build up, but also to hurt you instantly as soon as it gets the ball while keeping the defensive stability. This structure allows that certainly.

As for Pereyra I think he isn't that easy nut to crack despite Best. Have to use a words from our most famous Uruguayan poster here, along with Pereyra recognition in the game, as one of the best defenders to ever grace Brazilian football.

Pereyra srarted off as a #10 at Nacional, was captaining Uruguay as a #8 aged ~20 and was bought by Sao Paulo as a midfielder.

He (and his manager) soon realised he was better and more tactically adept than any Brazilian defender so after filling in a few times ended up playing in the heart of the defence.

Was the best defender in the Brazilian league for a decade or so alongside Oscar. He went on to coach and be in charge of SPs youth setup, with a few stints as caretaker manager.

Many believe he was all Brazil 82 needed to be champions, even more credit him with greatly influencing Brazil's evolution to more defensively robust sides thereafter.

It probably helped he was originally a #10. He was a superb footballer, but still capable of performing the best man-marking job on Maradona in his pomp (1986 WC 2nd round).

He was right footed, but played on the left side of the defence alongside Oscar, so this role should suit him. Very good with a ball in his feet also.

And finally when it comes to my team, am quite lucky to be able to represent what I wanted in the start (lucky in terms of injuries I mean). I really like my defensive line and wingbacks, while Suarez and Lerby look rather well to me also. It's certainly not Xavi - Kante which I had in mind at the start, but let's say more expansive, and of much higher quality, version of Jorginho - Kovacic when Chelsea field them.
Charlton and Messi maybe look like an odd pairing, but so are Mount - Havertz on paper. They actually look excellent in that sense, with one providing much more industry, and one providing more flair. Kempes also fits the bill nicely in absence of Eto'o who was the first option.

So, while all of them look really good in terms of individual roles and what system requires (even brilliant in cases of Carvalho, Leandro, Suarez, Lizarazu and even that front 3 for me) there is something missing which I wasn't been able to quite put my finger at. At first, I thought Charlton - Messi pairing, but nope for the reasons above and I wouldn't change it... midfield maybe, but again nope. They fit the system.

Then it came to my mind. I made Messi as 'just' one cog in the wheel at first sight and not built around him. While I can see him absolutely thriving and killing it in Havertz role, linking, assisting and scoring for fun, you kinda don't feel his massive influence on first look. He also has Charlton and Kempes alongside of him which will provide necessery sacrifice to make him shine even more. If you have a bit trouble seeing it, you could watch at him like a young, hungry and breaking through 19-22 year old version in there.

So yeah, that definitely... and a bit of my draft fatigue all together.

And again with a long post, sick and tired of those also tbh. Cheerio, God bless, whatever...

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Charlton is such an excellent choice here. Adds everything from work rate to especially goals and of course can see him playing a great partnership with Messi. Never thought I'd vote for Messi in a 5 man defense, but this is quite good.

 

[Jim Beam]

Charlton is such an excellent choice here. Adds everything from work rate to especially goals and of course can see him playing a great partnership with Messi. Never thought I'd vote for Messi in a 5 man defense, but this is quite good.

Yeah, I really like them also. A bit odd at first, but can see them working really well for the reasons explained in that bible of mine above.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Hard to choose.

Feel there a bit of overlap in Physio's midfield. A more defensive anchor would have giving it more balance imo.

Initially Messi in a back 5 seemed outrageous, but more I think....I really have nothing against him there. Charlton and Messi have pretty much everything covered, creativity, work rate, goal threat and Kempes is a good foil.

Not familiar with Pereyra though. Any information on join, Jimmy? Esp against Best?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Yeah, I really like them also. A bit odd at first, but can see them working really well for the reasons explained in that bible of mine above.

I do not like Carvalho there though, should be someone more expansive. The team has enough balance to be more aggressive and not play safe.

 

[Jim Beam]

Hard to choose.

Feel there a bit of overlap in Physio's midfield. A more defensive anchor would have giving it more balance imo.

Initially Messi in a back 5 seemed outrageous, but more I think....I really have nothing against him there. Charlton and Messi have pretty much everything covered, creativity, work rate, goal threat and Kempes is a good foil.

Not familiar with Pereyra though. Any information on join, Jimmy? Esp against Best?

I posted thoughts from @antohan above in one of the matches before...

Pereyra srarted off as a #10 at Nacional, was captaining Uruguay as a #8 aged ~20 and was bought by Sao Paulo as a midfielder.

He (and his manager) soon realised he was better and more tactically adept than any Brazilian defender so after filling in a few times ended up playing in the heart of the defence.

Was the best defender in the Brazilian league for a decade or so alongside Oscar. He went on to coach and be in charge of SPs youth setup, with a few stints as caretaker manager.

Many believe he was all Brazil 82 needed to be champions, even more credit him with greatly influencing Brazil's evolution to more defensively robust sides thereafter.

It probably helped he was originally a #10. He was a superb footballer, but still capable of performing the best man-marking job on Maradona in his pomp (1986 WC 2nd round).

He was right footed, but played on the left side of the defence alongside Oscar, so this role should suit him. Excellent with a ball in his feet also.[/QUOTE]

 

[Gio]

Both teams have really strong top halves. Tight game.

For Jim , I like that right flank - Messi and Leandro with Suarez providing the ammo. Perfect. Nice to see Pereyra in action, just the sort of player to resurface who has fallen off the radar in most of our drafts. Ideally I'd like some more ball-spraying ability from the defence, particularly if the model is Chelsea's 3-5-2 where Thiago Silva's diagonals pull teams apart.

For Physio, the midfield is delightful. I like the use of Thiago on Messi's side, because he's the only one in that defence who stands a chance against him. Should form a complementary partnership with Ayala who I don't think gets his dues often enough.

 

[Jim Beam]

I do not like Carvalho there though, should be someone more expansive. The team has enough balance to be more aggressive and not play safe.

Hm, I have Vasović and thought about playing him, but in the end decided to go with Carvalho who is slightly more reserved, but still excellent on the ball. Also, I thought it might expose me more and with a massive respect for Ronaldinho, Best in there went with a bit more safety.

If memory serves me right, Carvalho had a really good long pass in him and often started the attack with them.

 

[Physiocrat]

Bertselen (am talking about Denmark 1984 Euro team as I watched all of their games in that tournament) clearly played the most centrally, and along with that, was the most static out of all their players. However, once Olsen went forward it was Lerby who instantly and often dropped deeper collecting the ball from the defence in the offensive phase. That's the reason why you see him so deep at times in those clips against France. He still did roam a lot, but I think he was definitely at times a bit more restrictive in his duties then what was his usual role for the clubs (at least and certainly in some games that I've seen). All of Arnesen, Bergreen and Simonsen (when healthy) played more expansive and with more creative freedom. In any case, I don't see any issue with him as a classic b2b with endless stamina alongside Suarez.

Ah ok, I get more what you are going for with Lerby although I would describe his role against France as more of a DM rather than the B2B dynamo he plays in other games where he really gets forward a lot. I was thinking you intended to play that way.

Oh, I didn't mean to undervalue Tigana in any sense . He is a great fit here and with Nedved+Scholes forms a really complementary partnership. I also don't see you bunkered, although your defensive tactic in the opening post definitely looks like it (I mean, they all look like they are in their penalty area blocking Tim Howard, hm, Tim Howard, cough, cough...).
I would certainly see them functioning more as Sacchi Milan with Nedved, Scholes, Tigana, Best midfield. So, like aggresive and compact, zonal defending in a 4-4-2, with relatively high line. This is more like a suggestion if you go through.

The 442 graphic was just to show the organised defensive phase. I don't intend to bunker like that in general but at times it will be necessary.

As for Pereyra I think he isn't that easy nut to crack despite Best. Have to use a words from our most famous Uruguayan poster here, along with Pereyra recognition in the game, as one of the best defenders to ever grace Brazilian football.


He was right footed, but played on the left side of the defence alongside Oscar, so this role should suit him. Very good with a ball in his feet also.

He's not Eric Bailly that's for sure but a peak roaming Best would be serious problem for even Maldini.

 

[Jim Beam]

He's not Eric Bailly that's for sure but a peak roaming Best would be serious problem for even Maldini.

Agree. That's why I opted for more safety net here going with Carvalho and not Vasovic.

 

[Physiocrat]

Hard to choose.

Feel there a bit of overlap in Physio's midfield. A more defensive anchor would have giving it more balance imo.

What's wrong with Scholes as a DLP? We all know he had some good defensive nous as the deepest in the double pivot. Alongside a proper B2B and hardworking 8/10 hybrid I don't see overlap at all, all players are excellent on the ball but I don't see that overlapping in any sense, it's not like Xaviestia and Biscuits overlapped because they were all good on the ball. That is unless course you think Scholes needs Keane and Davids alongside him. Scholes was not Pirlo and was much better defensively and linked better with more creative players further forward.

This video showcases Scholes' severely underrated defensive ability

https://vimeo.com/user19033374

Not sure why this won't embed

 

[Physiocrat]

Both teams have really strong top halves. Tight game.

For Jim , I like that right flank - Messi and Leandro with Suarez providing the ammo. Perfect. Nice to see Pereyra in action, just the sort of player to resurface who has fallen off the radar in most of our drafts. Ideally I'd like some more ball-spraying ability from the defence, particularly if the model is Chelsea's 3-5-2 where Thiago Silva's diagonals pull teams apart.

For Physio, the midfield is delightful. I like the use of Thiago on Messi's side, because he's the only one in that defence who stands a chance against him. Should form a complementary partnership with Ayala who I don't think gets his dues often enough.

I remember Carvalho's passing being pretty good TBF. Glad you like the Thiago usage and given Ayala credit. I do think Ayala would be really highly rated if he were playing today.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Not sure why this won't embed

 

[Physiocrat]

@GodShaveTheQueen Thanks

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

What's wrong with Scholes as a DLP?

Nothing at all. But with Tigana and Nedved you have a good blend of creativity and work rate already that you don't really need Scholes passing. A Deschamps or Dunga type player there might be a better fit there, I was thinking.

 

[Jim Beam]

Nothing at all. But with Tigana and Nedved you have a good blend of creativity and work rate already that you don't really need Scholes passing. A Deschamps or Dunga type player there might be a better fit there, I was thinking.

I mean, might as well go first here.

That doesn't make much sense Edgar. I mean, you would drop Scholes because there is enough creativity and work rate and add for example Deschamps of all players making it midfield three of Deschamps - Tigana - Nedved. How exactly does that midfield look better?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I mean, might as well go first here.

That doesn't make much sense Edgar. I mean, you would drop Scholes because there is enough creativity and work rate and add for example Deschamps of all players making it midfield three of Deschamps - Tigana - Nedved. How exactly does that midfield look better?

Dunga is even funnier considering how trigger happy he was when it comes to big diagonals.

 

[harms]

What's wrong with Scholes as a DLP? We all know he had some good defensive nous as the deepest in the double pivot. Alongside a proper B2B and hardworking 8/10 hybrid I don't see overlap at all, all players are excellent on the ball but I don't see that overlapping in any sense, it's not like Xaviestia and Biscuits overlapped because they were all good on the ball. That is unless course you think Scholes needs Keane and Davids alongside him. Scholes was not Pirlo and was much better defensively and linked better with more creative players further forward.

Just another case of drafting prejudice. Scholes’ anecdotal tackling ability somehow equates to him lacking in a defensive phase (even with Tigana & Nedved alongside him).

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I mean, might as well go first here.

That doesn't make much sense Edgar. I mean, you would drop Scholes because there is enough creativity and work rate and add for example Deschamps of all players making it midfield three of Deschamps - Tigana - Nedved. How exactly does that midfield look better?

I would drop him if facing that midfield (even Kempes would trouble him IMO). Either that or drop Nedved.

The problem with that Scholes Barca compilation which is brought up every time is, while it does show he had work rate and positioning, he is always going to be a suspect going into tackles. I havent watched that compilation recently, but if memory serves me right, he does give away free kicks in dangerous positions around the box with his tackles. The least I would hope from a team that already has 4 attackers is a genuine tackler in the deepest position.

The team should either be -

1. A 4231 with Nedved in the hole and a DM alongside Tigana

OR

2. Scholes as the DLP and 2 B2B MFs flanking him and doing the dirty work.

The current team would still work in most league games. but in big European games, I cant see too many managers going for it.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I would drop him if facing that midfield (even Kempes would trouble him IMO). Either that or drop Nedved.

The problem with that Scholes Barca compilation which is brought up every time is, while it does show he had work rate and positioning, he is always going to be a suspect going into tackles. I havent watched that compilation recently, but if memory serves me right, he does give away free kicks in dangerous positions around the box with his tackles. The least I would hope from a team that already has 4 attackers is a genuine tackler in the deepest position.

but when Gentile kicks the shit out of Maradona/Zico and gives a foul pretty much every other duel they have then thats a legendary defensive performance. Few fouls(will just go and watch to see how many he did) from Scholes and all of the sudden he is a liability that doesnt know how to tackle.

 

[Jim Beam]

Well Edgar, at least you sparked a debate as usual, I'll give you that.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I mean, might as well go first here.

That doesn't make much sense Edgar. I mean, you would drop Scholes because there is enough creativity and work rate and add for example Deschamps of all players making it midfield three of Deschamps - Tigana - Nedved. How exactly does that midfield look better?

Dunga is even funnier considering how trigger happy he was when it comes to big diagonals.

Deschamps and Dunga are more suited to play a secondary role recycling possession and keep the game ticking with short passes and letting Nedved and Tigana do their work.

Scholes is wasted in that role and his defence splitting passes is more likely to bypass Nedved/Tigana rather than complement their gameplay.

If you want a DLP put a DM next to him or flank him with 2 B2Bs Pirlo style.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

but when Gentile kicks the shit out of Maradona/Zico and gives a foul pretty much every other duel they have then thats a legendary defensive performance. Few fouls(will just go and watch to see how many he did) from Scholes and all of the sudden he is a liability that doesnt know how to tackle.

Huh, why is Gentile suddenly the point of reference anyways? Different era, different level of refereeing and if you bring that up against Gentile in a draft game, I am sure there would be genuine debate like there was acknowledgement of @Edgar Allan Pillow 's team suspect to red card in the other game.

But that does not change the fact that tackling wasn't one of his best suites.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Deschamps and Dunga are more suited to play a secondary role recycling possession and keep the game ticking with short passes and letting Nedved and Tigana do their work.

Scholes is wasted in that role and his defence splitting passes is more likely to bypass Nedved/Tigana rather than complement their gameplay.

If you want a DLP put a DM next to him or flank him with 2 B2Bs Pirlo style.

This. All 3 points bang on target. (Okay maybe not the 2nd one completely, but I agree in essence)

 

[Gio]

The value of Scholes in that midfield is all of Best, Ronaldinho and Nedved were instinctive ball-carriers and ideally you'd want someone who let the ball do the talking to counterbalance that somewhat. Normally having Best and Ronaldinho in wide areas would necessitate a passing rather than dribbling based no10, but with Nedved there I think Scholes' gelling presence and ability to find others early would be productive.

 

[Jim Beam]

The value of Scholes in that midfield is all of Best, Ronaldinho and Nedved were instinctive ball-carriers and ideally you'd want someone who let the ball do the talking to counterbalance that somewhat. Normally having Best and Ronaldinho in wide areas would necessitate a passing rather than dribbling based no10, but with Nedved there I think Scholes' gelling presence and ability to find others early would be productive.

Yeah, agree with this. Think he rounds that midfield really well adding another dimension to it. It was the reason why I also mentioned he would be closed in the initial phase with a high press. I don't want him to ping those long balls to Ronaldinho and Best.

As for the defensive phase, he would struggle if he was alone certainly, but so would Deschamps.

 

[Jim Beam]

Spoiler

yeah... no

 

[General_Elegancia]

but when Gentile kicks the shit out of Maradona/Zico and gives a foul pretty much every other duel they have then thats a legendary defensive performance. Few fouls(will just go and watch to see how many he did) from Scholes and all of the sudden he is a liability that doesnt know how to tackle.

It's look easy but not....
If you tackle too hard,you would receive red card or something(common sense).I mean Gentile has a lot of intelligence in his game,he may not be clean defender....sure but this guy played for over 400 games and never got reds on his career that mean he had to be smarted enough to not got it.He knew how to brutal and fouls.

Another great example of this is Paolo Maldini.....I'm sure he couldn't be on top of the greatest defenders for sure,If he didn't know in his playing days how to fouled players and didn't received cards

 

[harms]

I really don't like that Scholes' influence in possession seems to be reduced to his diagonal balls. And even they would work brilliantly well for Best at least, Charlton & Crerand constantly found him in dangerous positions with their long balls forward when he was still close to his physical & mental peak.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Huh, why is Gentile suddenly the point of reference anyways? Different era, different level of refereeing and if you bring that up against Gentile in a draft game, I am sure there would be genuine debate like there was acknowledgement of @Edgar Allan Pillow 's team suspect to red card in the other game.

But that does not change the fact that tackling wasn't one of his best suites.

i just dont like double standards thats all and draft is swimming in them.

I really don't like that Scholes' influence in possession seems to be reduced to his diagonal balls. And even they would work brilliantly well for Best at least, Charlton & Crerand constantly found him in dangerous positions with their long balls forward when he was still close to his physical & mental peak.

exactly, if you somehow removed passing completely from Scholes repertoire he would still be an all-time great.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Regarding Scholes vs Barcelona, one of the greatest sides ever thats swims with great dribblers(Xavi, Iniesta, Messi and even at level below you have Deco and Eto'o) - in 90 minutes where Barcelona "dominated" or to be precise attacked for pretty much 90% of the time Scholes had 10 clean successful tackles(one wasnt but it led to a lost ball) and a staggering number of 2 fouls! I repeat: 2, two, zwei, due, deux.
One was in dangerous area(for a cross not a shoot), other was in not dangerous era and it shouldnt have been a foul anyways.