Draft About Nothing - Final before the FInal: Michaelf/GSTQ vs Enigma

With players at their career peak, who would win?


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Šjor Bepo

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vs


Team Scrappy
Formation: Attacking 4-3-3/2-3-2-3

Our team will be looking to take advantage of our quality and (looking at the squads) presumable numbers advantage on the flanks to create chances for our striker and late arriving runners from midfield. Given the suspension of Riva and Ed Woodward failing to sign Di Stefano on deadline day, our striker is Ruud Gullit who in two seasons as the main striker at PSV Eindhoven scored 46 goals in 68 games winning the Dutch Footballer of the year and Golden Shoe in 1986 as well as part of the basis for his 1987 Ballon d'Or.


Enigma
Formation: Zona Mista-ish
Style: Direct, quick in transition, compact at the back

Opposition will play without a designated striker, considering Riva is unavailable for the game. We have one of the best defensive box to box midfielders in Tardelli and Davids to provide support on the flanks.

Laudrup and Romario is a proven fit and alongside Hazard we have a creative force that would be difficult for the opposition to cope with.
 

Šjor Bepo

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History between the two giants of the game.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Mike, will be leading the discussions in this game. Since he has a posts limit, I am posting the write ups about some of the lesser known players in the team.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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The 1974 World Cup and the missing piece in Holland’s almost ‘totaalvoetbal’



1973 World Soccer World XI



The Olympiastdion in Munich on 7th July 1974. On a seasonably warm Bavarian afternoon, the coronation of Holland’s ‘Oranje’ was expected. Rinus Michel’s team had scorched the the pitches of West Germany with the vivid bright flame of their football. The ‘Cruyff turn’ had been born when Sweden’s Olssen, bamboozled by the Dutchman’s manoeuvre not only had to buy a ticket to get back into the stadium, he also needed a taxi to get back there, so far had he been sent the wrong way. A Brazil squad, shorn of Pele for the first time in a generation had eschewed their ‘jogo bonita’ for a style some called pragmatic, others called brutal. In a beauty and the beast contest however, the Dutch had eliminated the reigning champions. Whilst the Dutch masters created flowing football with the panache of an artist, the Brazilians were cutlass-wielding barbarians in comparison. Wherever they were when they saw the performance, the souls of the ‘Pearl,’ Gerson and Tostao would surely have been uneasy.

And so to the final on that July day, with Holland facing hosts and reigning European Champions, West Germany. For the Dutch, there could hardly have been more fitting opponents to share their moment of history. All seemed well when Cruyff picked up the ball in a left back position before slaloming through the German midfield and defence until upended by his nominal marker Berti Vogts on the edge of the penalty area. Neeskens duly despatched the spot kick and when Sepp Maier picked the ball out of the net, it was the first time a German had touched the ball since English referee Jack Taylor had blown to start the game. The Dutch were in their pomp and spent the next minutes as if elegantly considering a menu of delicious alternatives to pick apart their prey. Self-indulgence and success however are never easy bedfellows.

Perhaps the Germans responded well, perhaps the Dutch got lost in their own swagger, but whichever was the case, the orange-shirted defenders, when asked to protect their goal, came up short. Firstly, Breitner converted the second penalty of the game when Holzenbein was brought down and then Muller performed his party piece. The master poacher produced a reverse shot from just inside the area and and ‘keeper Jongbloed’s tame effort waved the ball past him into the net. The spell was broken. The revolution had died. Football’s counter-culture had seemingly blown itself out, with an Icarus-like tendency to self-destruct. They had flown too close to the sun and their wings of wax had melted.

The second half was a series of orange waves battering away at the German defence marshalled by the Bayern Munich pairing of the elegant Beckenbauer and the robust Schwarzenbeck. Often the Dutch had merely left the tousle-haired Wim Jensen as the lone sentinel to deal with any German breaks. It was all to nought however, and as the final whistle blew it was West Germany’s trophy, and the Dutch had only a heroic failure and perhaps a tale of what might have been.

The Ajax and Dutch teams of the early seventies came to prominence and showed a way of painting the beautiful game that defines how it should be done. For some it was the Hungarians of the fifties; for others, the Brazil of the sixties. Perhaps others again would take as the template the Spain team that dominated world football until Brazil 2014. Back then however, it was Ajax and Holland. And this is where the missing piece slots in.

Barry Hulshoff was a titan of a player. Mop-haired and bearded with the trademark socks around his ankles, bereft of shin pads. He had worked his way into the Ajax team under Michels, although it was always an uneasy relationship. Hulshoff’s personality was much like his playing style, individual and with a spirit abounding to perform the extraordinary. Take a look at Youtube and type in his name. There are numerous videos of him playing for Ajax in European Cup encounters against teams such as Real Madrid, Bayern Munich and Inter Milan. Take a picture of Rio Ferdinand at his best, add in the passing ability of Steven Gerarrd, sprinkle in the determination and power of John Terry, with a dash of the shooting power of Cristiano Ronaldo, and you have an idea of his prowess. The Ajax libero donned in white with the broad red stripe on his shirt strode around the pitch, like some giant out to right the wrongs of the game.

With three European Cup victories already to his name, Hulshoff was the complete article when the 1974 tournament rolled around. Victory in 1971 at Wembley against Panathinaikos saw him diminish the Greek’s main threat by shackling the tall Antoniadis, rendering the tactic of high balls to the striker ineffective. The following year, the defensively-choking approach of Inter Milan was defeated, again with a clean sheet for Hulshoff and his team-mates. Finally, in 1973, another Italian side were beaten as La Vecchia Signora of Juventus also failed to register a goal against the Dutch defence; this time under the coaching of Stefan Kovacs, as Michels had decamped to the Nou Camp and Barcelona. The creator of totaalvoetbal was however to return three months ahead of the World Cup to take charge of the Dutch team. At 27 years of age, tutored in the ethos of Ajax, Hulshoff was primed to play a full part in delivering the ultimate prize in world football to the Netherlands. It was to be the highest of high sporting points for the Low Countries.

As the jigsaw pieces fell onto the table when the squad assembled in West Germany however, one was missing. Hulshoff had suffered a serious knee injury, that would rule him out of the tournament. It was, in fact, an injury from which he never truly recovered. Faced with the dilemma of losing the dominating presence of Ajax libero, the Dutch faced a major issue. Feyenoord’s Rinus Israel would have been the obvious replacement, but ironically, a series of knee operations following repeated injuries had rendered serious doubts about his fitness. Michels would be moved to include him anyway, as a back-up plan. There was also talk of Hulshoff’s Ajax central defensive partner Horst Blankenburg being approached. The problem, however, was that Blankenburg was German. Nevertheless, as the player had never represented his homeland, and with Beckenbauer there, such a development was unlikely, the Dutch were prepared to fast-track nationality papers through if he was minded to take up the offer. Blankenburg refused however.

With the search for a libero proving increasing difficult, Michels opted for a solution that would be replicated by Pep Guardiola twenty-odd years later. When faced with the loss of Carles Puyol, the Blaugrana manager chose to deploy midfielder Javier Mascherano alongside Gerard Pique. In a similar approach, Michels decided to play Arie Haan as the libero, and paired him with the young Rijsbergen. Krol and Suurbier would be the nominal full backs. It was a gamble on Haan being able to utilise an undoubted game nous to fill any gaps in his defensive technique, alongside a relatively inexperienced partner.

The plan seemed to be performing exceptionally well as the Dutch cruised to the final with only a single goal conceded, and that a Ruud Krol own goal against a Bulgaria team already well-beaten at the time. The flip side of that was of course that the defence had hardly been tested. The Dutch attacking play had dominated and disheartened to such an extent that opponents had hardly seemed capable of threatening the Oranje back line. Against West Germany however, that would not be the case.

In that vital period of the latter part of the first half however, after Neeskens had scored and the Dutch had spent some time admiring themselves in the mirror, when Germany first equalised then took the lead, would the presence of the talismanic Hulshoff have made their task more difficult? It surely would. Would it have changed the dynamic of the game? Probably, but how far? In the second period, with the Dutch repeatedly poured forward, would the pace, power and presence of the six foot odd Hulshoff have given an added edge to the attack, especially when balls were loaded into the box? It’s difficult to think that ‘no’ is the answer.

Arie Haan was a superb player and in the 1978 World Cup, his distance shooting was to embarrass both Maier and the veteran Italian ‘keeper Dino Zoff as a weaker Dutch team again lost in the final to the hosts; this time Argentina. He would however surely never claim to be a sustainable replacement for the presence of Hulshoff. In any game against as canny a performer as Gerd Muller, a defensive weakness was always likely to be exposed, and in the final analysis, this is why the Dutch came up short in Munich.

It would be wrong to say that a football ethos died that day in July 1974, but certainly a little of the romance did. Jack Kerouac, the American author, rebel and co-founder of the Beat Generation once declared: “My fault, my failure, is not in the passions I have, but in my lack of control of them.” It’s not a bad description of the Dutch national team of the seventies, for ever ‘On the Road’ as it were, but never quite arriving. This is of course to not to decry the German triumph. On the day, the best team probably won. It just wasn’t the team that most people wanted as World Champions. It wasn’t how it was meant to be.

I don’t know where Barry Hulshoff was when he saw the denouement of the tournament, and Beckanbauer lifted the trophy that may have been in Dutch hands, had he been there. After a scandalously meagre fourteen Dutch caps, with six goals from centre back, Hulshoff’s is a story not of what might have, but what should have been. Without him the story of Dutch totaal voetbal, was somewhat less than complete. It’s often said that, in rock music, to die young is a good career move. The same can be said in literature. Karouac’s approach to life and his art has reflections on the Dutch approach to football. The magic era of Oranje may not hold the romance it does if they had won the World Cup. It’s difficult to be defined as rebellious when you become the establishment,

Any picture portrayed in a jigsaw puzzle with a missing piece can never be anything but frustrating, not because it is poorer without it, but because with it, it could have been perfect. Falling one step short of the title however can be both rewarding and frustrating. Being a “people’s champion” is fine, but dining at the top table is surely the ultimate reward. Had Hulshoff not suffered that knee injury and instead taken his allotted place in the Dutch team on that day in Munich, the history of football could have been very different. Without him, the Oranje was incomplete and the totaalvoetbal just wasn’t.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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It was 65 years ago that Costa Pereira and Mário Coluna wore the Benfica’s jersey for the first time. It was in the first match of the 1954/55 season, for the National Championship: the red glories were called by Otto Glória to start the match. Mário Coluna scored twice.

On September 12, 1954 two remarkable players were making a debut. The goalkeeper Costa Pereira and the midfielder Mário Coluna started their path at Benfica with a 5-0 rout against V. Setúbal, at Estádio Nacional (Jamor), for the Matchday 1 of the National Championship.

The debut could not be better for Benfica and for the two glories. While Costa Pereira saved everything, Mário Coluna scored his first two goals with the eagle on his chest (50’, 65’). The remaining goals were scored by Arsénio (5’), Salvador Martins (25’) and José Águas (46’).



Otto Glória, Brazilian coach who also made his debut that day, started with: Costa Pereira, Jacinto, Artur Santos, José Naldo, Francisco Calado, Ângelo, Arnénio, Fernando Caiado, Mário Coluna, Salvador Martins and José Águas, to achieve the first victory in the Championship. Benfica became a National Champion for the 8th time in History.

The Mozambican midfielder, Coluna, played at Benfica 16 long seasons, converted into 525 matches, 127 goals and 19 titles (2 European Champions Cups, 10 National Championships and 7 Portuguese Cups).



The goalkeeper Costa Pereira also did not escape attention, playing 13 seasons with the red jersey, 358 matches and winning 13 titles (2 European Champions Cups, 7 National Championships and 4 Portuguese Cups).

“That goalkeeper who was the prototype of elegance, fine in movement, surprising in dexterity,” said journalist Aurélio Márcio.

The Brazilian coach, Otto Glória, served Benfica for 8 seasons (1954-59 to 1967-70) coaching the squad in 240 matches, with 140 victories, 62 draws and 38 defeats. In what concerns to titles, won 9 (Four National Championships and 5 Portuguese Cups).


1965 World Soccer World XI, where both Mario Coluna and Costa Periera feature

 

Synco

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Two really well drafted teams. At first glance, I have only one real concern each:

@Michaelf7777777 @GodShaveTheQueen
While I think Gullit can play basically everywhere across the frontline & has all the necessary traits for a #9 *in principle*, this setup with two traditional wide players doesn't seem ideal, given his inclination to extensive movement.

You indicated Riva as your first choice option in th OP, so I guess that was your round 2 pick? Or do you rest him for the next match? (Didn't really follow the draft mayhem.)

@Enigma_87
Your CB duo is the only concern to me, can say a few words about Norman Hunter? And in which phase of the game is Desailly supposed to move back?

Don't know much about Pereira beyond him being successful with Benfica, but I guess it's safe to say that Dino Zoff is a huge plus for Enigma.
 
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Enigma_87

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@Enigma_87
Your CB duo is the only concern to me, can say a few words about Norman Hunter? And in which phase of the game is Desailly supposed to move back?
Sure mate. Desailly matches up pretty well to Gullit, so that should also be taken into consideration when looking at both defences/attacks.

Hunter is one of Leeds greatest players and has over 700 games for the club in its most prominent era:

Norman Hunter

Games: 722 (2)
Goals: 21

Affectionately nicknamed Norman “Bites Yer Legs” Hunter due to his ferocious tackling, he first came into the side as Don Review blooded youngsters during the early 1960s. Hunter soon developed a superb understanding with Jack Charlton that would serve the club for a decade. After winning the Division Two title, Hunter won Division One, FA Cup, Fairs Cup and League Cup honours. Named Leeds Player Of The Year in 1970/71 and PFA Player Of The Year in 1973, Hunter was quick, totally committed and possessed terrific positional awareness.

He could also slice a defence open with a long raking pass and had a thunderous shot, as several goalkeepers discovered. Although not as “dirty” as a defender as his reputation suggested, Hunter was a hardman who never shirked a challenge. This attitude led to the odd spat, most famously with Derby County’s Francis Lee in 1975 when the pair were sent off for fighting in days when even bookings were rare.

Strange but true: Hunter was the only player to feature in every major Revie-era cup final.

Norman “Bites Yer Legs” Hunter joined the Leeds ground staff as a youngster in November 1960, after playing for Birtley Secondary Modern School, Birtley Juniors and Chester-le-Street. Hunter was one of the fiercest competitors ever to pull on a Leeds United shirt. The United defender renowned for his tackling, relished the awesome reputation that often disguised the fact that he was also an excellent footballer. The former electrical fitter turned professional in April 1961 and made quick progress through the ranks and never looked back after his first-team debut at Swansea in early 1962-63. His central defensive partnership with Jack Charlton was the corner stone of United’s success for over a decade.

Leeds were promoted as Second Division Champions in 1963-64 and a year later came very close to the "double" of League Championship and FA Cup with Hunter to the fore. However, they lost the title to Manchester United on goal average and were beaten 2-1 by Liverpool in the FA Cup final, though Hunter's accurate long pass into the Liverpool area did start the move which led to Billy Bremner's goal. Leeds progressed through the 1960s, never once coming lower than fourth in the title race, and Hunter picked up a medal as they won the League Cup and their first European honour with the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup in 1968.

A year later he won his first title medal and then in 1969-70 he was part of the team which ceaselessly sought a unique "treble", but won nothing. Leeds chased the League championship but lost the race on the last day of fixtures to Everton, went close to the European Cup but were beaten by Celtic in the semi finals, and went after the FA Cup but lost after a replay to Chelsea. Hunter spent a short part of that season injured but despite his race for fitness and disappointment at the end of the campaign, he was still in Alf Ramsey's squad for the summer's World Cup in Mexico, coming on as a substitute in the 3-2 defeat by West Germany.
Leeds were again thwarted in 1970-71 when Arsenal took the League title with a 1-0 win over Tottenham Hotspur. Defeat or a score draw for Arsenal and the title would have gone to Leeds. In the FA Cup, Leeds fell victim to one of the competition's great giant-killing acts when Colchester United beat them 3-2 in the fifth round. They were 3-0 up, with Hunter then scoring one of Leeds' goals as they attempted a comeback. Leeds did, however, win their second Fairs Cup that season.

In 1971-72, Hunter's joy as he fought the Leeds cause was captured in one of football's most magnificent photographs. Leeds once again reached the final of the FA Cup, a competition they had yet to win, and at Wembley they faced holders Arsenal. In a tight and not thrilling game, Leeds opened the scoring midway through the second half when Allan Clarke headed home a cross from Mick Jones. Hunter's defensive position meant that he was at the opposite end of the pitch to Clarke when the Leeds striker launched his diving header, Hunter, like most central defenders, only went forward for set-pieces or when running with the ball at his feet.



Thanks to Leeds Utd Memories for the photograph.


A photographer behind the Leeds goal, at the opposite end to Clarke, captured the moment as Hunter leapt high in the air in celebration with arms and legs spread, as if in the midst of a star-jump. Leeds held on to win 1-0 and Hunter had his FA Cup winners' medal at last. At the end of the game, Hunter climbed the steps to the Royal box twice, once to collect his own medal, and then again to help the badly injured Jones negotiate his way up and down. Jones had been receiving treatment for a dislocated shoulder while his team-mates had been getting their prizes.

The next year, 1972-73, Leeds reached two finals, that of the FA Cup again, and also the European Cup-Winners Cup. Yet again, however, there would be disappointment for Leeds. Sunderland surprisingly won the FA Cup final and then AC Milan were victorious in the Cup Winners Cup final in Greece, though the latter was tainted by a despairingly biased performance by the referee, who sent Hunter off late in the game after "missing" a foul committed on the Leeds defender who retaliated in frustration. The referee was quickly banned by UEFA from officiating again, but the result stood.
Hunter was remarkably consistent, playing in five ever-present seasons and featured in all United’s Cup Finals from 1965 to 1975, finishing with two League Championship medals, an FA Cup Winners’ medal, A League Cup Winners’ medal and two Inter-Cities Fair Winners’ medals and a Second Division Championship medal to add to the honour of being voted the PFA’s first-ever “Player of the Year” in 1973. His glorious reign at Leeds ended when he went to Bristol City in October 1976 and he became a firm favourite at Ashton Gate, making a hundred and eight League appearances and scored four goals.

He won twenty eight full International caps for England, making his full debut against West Germany in February 1966. Only the presence of England Captain Bobby Moore stopped him earning more international honours. He was in the squad which won the 1966 World Cup but never kicked a ball. He did however receive a winners medal in 2007 for the 1966 tournament after FIFA retrospectively awarded all squad members of winning teams before 1978 winners medals as has been the custom from 1978 onwards.


EDIT: as for Desailly, obviously in the defensive phase he would move back whilst when in possession he will shore the midfield. Also when one of the box to box midfielders goes to cover wide he will step up to fill in the gap.
 
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harms

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I'm surprised that @GodShaveTheQueen's midfield ended up looking like that — a playmaker and 2 box-to-box midfielders, considering his (quite reasonable for most of the time) opinion regarding switching a holder for another b2b.
 

harms

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You indicated Riva as your first choice option in th OP, so I guess that was your round 2 pick? Or do you rest him for the next match? (Didn't really follow the draft mayhem.)
He had to block one of 2 players that he had signed in the 4th round. And he sold the second one, so he had no choice but to block Riva, a number 9 the whole attack was built around. Quite unlucky.
 

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In that vital period of the latter part of the first half however, after Neeskens had scored and the Dutch had spent some time admiring themselves in the mirror, when Germany first equalised then took the lead, would the presence of the talismanic Hulshoff have made their task more difficult? It surely would.
:lol:

I don't know why Hulshoff isn't rated higher around these parts, but he should be. He's a beast of a player IMO and the perfect player to play CB with a verrouilleur behind him.
 

Indnyc

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Wasn’t Zanetti a winger in the time period that he’s been picked? During that period did he ever play as a fullback?
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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I'm surprised that @GodShaveTheQueen's midfield ended up looking like that — a playmaker and 2 box-to-box midfielders, considering his (quite reasonable for most of the time) opinion regarding switching a holder for another b2b.
Sorry about crossing 3 post limit. Responding due to the direct question.

This wasn't one of the 2 setups we had in mind for our squad. This was more or less forced by the suspension.

Coming to Bremner, among the B2B lot, he would probably be in the most defensive of them although did offer going forward. From what I read, he did play the defensive holding role a fair bit too.

Now coming to my past criticisms of midfields, this is my problem -

1. One of them should be a pure holder in such setups.
2. You can play Davids or Tigana or Desailly or Matthaus or Bremner there, I don't mind. But don't call them B2B, call them a holder who won't surge forward (can still play make from the back of they are skilled enough)
3. Obviously under uses them and in some cases might not be ideal as well.

Point 3 is what drafters sometimes (most times actually) don't like doing as it's not eye catchy and might lose votes. But that is the right thing to do.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Wasn’t Zanetti a winger in the time period that he’s been picked? During that period did he ever play as a fullback?
No, he wasn't just a winger till he was 28 years old

"I faced Zanetti for the first time in the Champions League quarter-finals in 1999, he was the right-back and I was on the left. He impressed with his qualities, his speed, power, intelligence and expertise. I played against him twice more and he was my most difficult opponent, a complete player."
Ryan Giggs.[49]

Alright, am out. Couldnt resist out of habit.
 

Enigma_87

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Wasn’t Zanetti a winger in the time period that he’s been picked? During that period did he ever play as a fullback?
I'm not sure how that round worked, tbh. Shouldn't he play as an attacking midfielder at least considering he was picked as a winger?
 

Synco

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@Enigma_87
Thanks for the info on Hunter. Still would like to know about the second part of my question on Desailly: When is he supposed to move back, when is he in midfield? (I edited that part in later, so it may have been missed.) Basically: Do you defend with three at the back when the opposition has prolonged possession? Or is Desailly man-marking Gullit? I have no clue about Zona Mista defensive tactics.
He had to block one of 2 players that he had signed in the 4th round. And he sold the second one, so he had no choice but to block Riva, a number 9 the whole attack was built around. Quite unlucky.
Really unlucky, with Riva & Gullit behind him that offense would have been perfect.
 

Enigma_87

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@Enigma_87
Thanks for the info on Hunter. Still would like to know about the second part of my question on Desailly: When is he supposed to move back, when is he in midfield? (I edited that part in later, so it may have been missed.) Basically: Do you defend with three at the back when the opposition has prolonged possession? Or is Desailly man-marking Gullit? I have no clue about Zona Mista defensive tactics.

Really unlucky, with Riva & Gullit behind him that offense would have been perfect.
yeah saw the second part, but later on.

Basically it depends on the opposition of course, but considering that Gullit is the only and main central option for the opposition we don't need to defend centrally with huge numbers. Desailly would most probably square with Gullit when the opposition has prolonged time on the ball as he matches him pretty well, whilst Hunter will most likely cover the right side, considering he was pretty fast on the deck and also clean tackler.

When we will have possession Desailly will move into holding position covering the flank or the space behind Davids/Tardelli. When the opposition is on a counter he will be again central covering the space in front of the center backs, whilst one of Tardelli/Davids will cover the flank where the action takes place. Conti will also track back when off possession to defend on the flank(similarly like Jair in zona mista).
 

Enigma_87

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@GodShaveTheQueen you were a huge fan of abiding the rules during the drafting process, yet completely shitting over the three post rule in the match thread or you are leading the discussion now? :wenger:
 

Isotope

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It's obvious i have to face one of these feckers. Damn it.
 

Synco

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yeah saw the second part, but later on.

Basically it depends on the opposition of course, but considering that Gullit is the only and main central option for the opposition we don't need to defend centrally with huge numbers. Desailly would most probably square with Gullit when the opposition has prolonged time on the ball as he matches him pretty well, whilst Hunter will most likely cover the right side, considering he was pretty fast on the deck and also clean tackler.

When we will have possession Desailly will move into holding position covering the flank or the space behind Davids/Tardelli. When the opposition is on a counter he will be again central covering the space in front of the center backs, whilst one of Tardelli/Davids will cover the flank where the action takes place. Conti will also track back when off possession to defend on the flank(similarly like Jair in zona mista).
Sounds well thought out. Desailly is a great fit to defend against Gullit, which makes it even harder for Michael/GSTQ inside the box. (Jair only played in the Catenaccio system, but it's clear what you mean, and afaik Zona Mista used the same basic formation.)

The only (but potentially significant) weakness I can see is your defensive left side of Candela/Mertesacker against Figo/Zanetti. Davids' presence should help, but he has to look after Matthäus as well. This gets mitigated by the oppo's problems with CF presence, though.
 

Enigma_87

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Sounds well thought out. Desailly is a great fit to defend against Gullit, which makes it even harder for Michael/GSTQ inside the box. (Jair only played in the Catenaccio system, but it's clear what you mean, and afaik Zona Mista used the same basic formation.)

The only (but potentially significant) weakness I can see is your defensive left side of Candela/Mertesacker against Figo/Zanetti. Davids' presence should help, but he has to look after Matthäus as well. This gets mitigated by the oppo's problems with CF presence, though.
Aye, cheers.

Tardelli and Davids clearly are a big help in this system considering their ability to cover wide and also being one of the best defensive box to box midfielders in the game.

Sure Matthaus will obviously provide a threat going forward but he also will have a lot of defensive duties, along with Coluna, considering the threat our forwards provide and especially the Laudrup / Romario combo which doesn't require many chances.
 

harms

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I'm not sure how that round worked, tbh. Shouldn't he play as an attacking midfielder at least considering he was picked as a winger?
Somehow not, but I decided out of spite that I'll just imagine a random Argentinian winger in Zanetti's place for the sake of this draft :lol:
 

Indnyc

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No, he wasn't just a winger till he was 28 years old

"I faced Zanetti for the first time in the Champions League quarter-finals in 1999, he was the right-back and I was on the left. He impressed with his qualities, his speed, power, intelligence and expertise. I played against him twice more and he was my most difficult opponent, a complete player."
Ryan Giggs.[49]

Alright, am out. Couldnt resist out of habit.
But in that case we can’t use his peak version to judge here, can we?
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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But in that case we can’t use his peak version to judge here, can we?
You can judge him on your perception of Zanetti from 1996-2001. If you don't consider it his peak, then don't judge him as peak Zanetti. But considering him a winger playing as fullback is not in the rules. You can play him anywhere as per the mods.

With players like Zanetti and Bastian, you can't have just 1 peak. As a balanced fullback, these were his best days of ramping up and down the flank (Extending till 2004-05). My personal opinion of course.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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:lol:

I don't know why Hulshoff isn't rated higher around these parts, but he should be. He's a beast of a player IMO and the perfect player to play CB with a verrouilleur behind him.
Don't know how I missed this post, but just reading back -

Firstly, you couldn't be more spot on. Not just saying this because we have him in our ranks. I have picked him in the past as well and got into a quarrel with the opponent who dismissed him straight away.

But let me also be honest and say we'd replace him in the reinforcements. He will not get rated the way he deserves (like many other players of course, none of us know about everyone that ever played).

I'd still hope his stock increases with the time. That writeup is simply brilliant if anyone hasn't read it (I didn't write it but translated from a Dutch website long ago when the Late. MJJ and I picked him). It explains not only why the Dutch lost the final because of his absence, it also explains how undervalued he is in an historical context just because of missing that 1974 tournament. Won 3 continuous European Cups and a clean sheet in all 3 finals (with different partners Vasovic and Blakenberg). Don't think anyone in history can boast of that.
 
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GodShaveTheQueen

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@Michaelf7777777 @GodShaveTheQueen
While I think Gullit can play basically everywhere across the frontline & has all the necessary traits for a #9 *in principle*, this setup with two traditional wide players doesn't seem ideal, given his inclination to extensive movement
Missed this post as well.

Of course it's not ideal, the wasn't ever the plan. He will have to play a more limited role here but I think it's fine in the overall scheme of things because all his other traits are well covered -

1. We have enough creativity to not depend on his
2. We have enough energy and workrate to not depend on him

Don't know much about Pereira beyond him being successful with Benfica, but I guess it's safe to say that Dino Zoff is a huge plus
You can't say you don't know much and then say it's safe to say having Zoff is a HUGE plus. This is Hulshoff all over again.

I don't disagree that Zoff was the better keeper, but I don't think the gap can be called huge. Our lack of knowledge shouldn't lead to a player's dismissal or in this case the safe opinion of a huge gap.

He won multiple European Cups, lost multiple European Cup finals, was 3rd in 1966 World Cup and was in the World Soccer World XI in an era with the likes of Yashin and Banks at their peak.
 

harms

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Let's put it like that, I can't remember being significantly impressed with a keeper in any of the Benfica's games. I think it's fair to assume that there's a gap between him and Zoff.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Let's put it like that, I can't remember being significantly impressed with a keeper in any of the Benfica's games. I think it's fair to assume that there's a gap between him and Zoff.
Gap, yes. I have already said Zoff was the better keeper. Huge? No.
 

Synco

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You can't say you don't know much and then say it's safe to say having Zoff is a HUGE plus. This is Hulshoff all over again.

I don't disagree that Zoff was the better keeper, but I don't think the gap can be called huge. Our lack of knowledge shouldn't lead to a player's dismissal or in this case the safe opinion of a huge gap.

He won multiple European Cups, lost multiple European Cup finals, was 3rd in 1966 World Cup and was in the World Soccer World XI in an era with the likes of Yashin and Banks at their peak.
Hm, if you'd argue Pereira is an overlooked all time great somewhat close to the bracket of Zoff, Banks, Kahn, I could understand this. Would you?
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Hm, if you'd argue Pereira is an overlooked all time great somewhat close to the bracket of Zoff, Banks, Kahn, I could understand this. Would you?
I haven't watched him enough to put him in any bracket and I am not one to make safe opinions based on assumptions about players I haven't watched. For me a huge gap would be putting him a few tiers below Zoff. His achievements both in his teams and as an individual seem to suggest that is not the case.
 

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Well this game is an anti climax