Draft About Nothing - Grande Finale: Harms vs Michaelf/GSTQ

With players at their career peak, who would win? Edit


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Šjor Bepo

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vs



Harms
Peter Schmeichel aside (although he would always be associated with the British football), I have 3 football cultures as the foundation for my team — Brazilian flair, Italian steel & the best that British football has to offer. But then I chose the players who are not only characterised by their nationality — my British front 3 & Sandro Mazzola are creative and unpredictable, and Falcão & Zito have enough graft in them to face any midfield. Overall it’s a more possession-oriented side than I usually construct, but I’m very happy with the balance between individual quality, suitability & workrate.


I think that in general my team does not require much explanation aside from one thing — the right wing with Stanley Matthews and Dani Alves. So, let me get onto that:

Dani Alves. He is a player that I had issues with for a long time — I never doubted his quality, but him being a part of the all-conquering Barca that spanked us in 2 CL finals & generally acting like a dick (diving & moaning to referees) didn’t help. As he and I grow older and with his retirement inevitably closing on, I’m beginning to let go of my bias and starting to simply appreciate him for the player he was before. He was not just a player elevated by Barcelona’s style — I’d argue that he was their 4th most important player after Messi, Xavi & Iniesta. And even if we choose to ignore his years there, we still have an incredible player who used to orchestrate Sevilla’s game from the right back position aged 24 (he was highest ranking defender in the 2007 Ballon d’Or list) & got the Copa America MVP award in 2019 aged 36, again, dictating the play from a right back position in a back 4.

Offensively, I think he is the most gifted right back of all-time — I’d have Cafu & Carlos Alberto (and maybe Kaltz) slightly behind him in that regard. What sets him apart is the sheer variety of his offensive arsenal — not only he was a master of a good old overlap & cross, he was equally comfortable in his short and long passing (and played a lot as a midfielder for Brazil & PSG) and often would cut inside to create a numerical advantage in midfield. I’ve provided him with an excellent cover and I expect him to be a brilliant influence on my team. And while he was not an all-time great defensively, you have to admit that he had a fair share of great games against the likes of Messi & Ronaldinho (at Sevilla) and, of course, the regular battles against Cristiano where he would often came out on top — all while retaining an incredible level of offensive presence.


Stanley Matthews. Often regarded as the archetypical right winger, Matthews had a bit more to his game — he would often drift inside and act as a playmaker. After Garrincha broke through, those two were often compared with each other as the best right wingers in history, and, despite both being known for their astonishing dribbling skills, they couldn’t have been more different. Matthews was the ultimate professional and it was that attitude and mentality that allowed him to play until he was 50 years old. He was always a team player, which is not only illustrated by his humble opinion that «the Matthews final» should be called «the Mortensen final», but also by his peculiar partnership with Jimmy Armfield. In the years when the distinction between forwards and defenders was set in stone, it was those two who introduced English football to a concept of an overlapping fullback. Stanley Matthews was often double-marked as the most threatening player on the pitch — and while he was good enough to beat both of his markers alone, there were times when he preferred to pull his markers deeper & wait for Armfield to make a run. They first tried that at Blackpool and later regularly used that trick for England.



Scrappy
Inspiration:




Pressing together as a team from the front



Pushing ahead together from the back in transition from defense to attack



Continuous positional switches and movement from the wingers (Giggs and Figo) and second striker (Gullit)



Compact and coherent movement in midfield



Coordinated movement in defense



Zonal Marking - Counter the opponent with the ball in your space

 

harms

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Good luck @Michaelf7777777 @GodShaveTheQueen

There's not much to say here, really. Your team is basically perfect, the only possible issue would be a free-spirited Breitner in a more requiring set up against one of the deadliest one-on-one players in history. Same is true for the other side with devastating Giggs facing my most attacking defender (who has a pretty good cover though). And, of course, Breitner's potential movements can lead to a Chile-74 moment as easily as they can to Matthews beating him and creating a goal though.

Vierchowod-Cannavaro & Schmeichel are an incredibly tough core to break, even for Riva & Gullit, who combine their scary physique with brilliant on-the-ball skills. Every 4-4-2, especially the one without a proper playmaker and with a wing-pairing of Giggs and Figo would be tilted towards to a more direct style with lots of crossing involved, and it's hard to imagine a better core to challenge MSTQ's attackers aerially. Same is obviously true for their own defensive unit, which is a thing of beauty.

My only possible edge in terms of the team balance is my focus on possession — and the fact that MSTQ's system is so reliant on pressing, while Alves, Falcão, Mazzola, Best, Matthews, Law & Zito are all somewhere on a scale between very good to all-time great dribblers.

And also, since I've made it, here's a compilation of Mazzola's performance in the 1971 game against Mönchengladbach. It's not an all-touch compilation, since I've only had goal highlights & 25 minutes of the second time footage, still, you get the sense of the player he was. I feel like he gets a bit underrated by most here, but he quite deservingly ended up a runner-up behind Cruyff in the 1971 Ballon d'Or vote. My estimation of him varied throughout the years — at some point I rated him higher than Rivera because of his workrate & general attitude, then I went back to liking Rivera more (such a magical player), but I still feel that he gets forgotten in a number 10 discussions. He is a rare case of a number 10 who was not an elite (like a properly all-time great) playmaker, but the rest of his game was enough for him to be regularly selected ahead Rivera at their respective career peaks.

 

GodShaveTheQueen

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I'll start off with what I think of the opposition

I finally like a harms midfield. Seems like ages since I liked one. Maybe forced due to the Tigana suspension, but I still appreciate that he went for Zito ahead of the likes of Tardelli who were available too. There is good balance there.

I also love that Sandro Mazzola makes it to a draft final. Little disappointed that it wasn't one of my teams to get him there, but hey, we sold him to harms :)

Now to things that I don't like. Only 2

As I mentioned in the earlier rounds as well, I am not a fan of the Matthews/Alves wing. Its workable, but I don't think either would enjoy the other's company. While I expect Matthews to still hog most of the ball and do what he does well, I think Alves' output would be really hampered here. Most would have replaced Alves in reinforcements, but the move to change Matthews instead and getting in Robben was an inspired one and I didn't see it coming.

I also don't like Cannavaro-Vierchowod in this game. I know I revisited the partnership and agreed I was wrong with my arguments in the SF thread, but I have different reasons for disliking it here.

For what its worth, it did re watch a couple of full games (one just today, the Final) from that 2006 WC and think Cannavaro and Materrazi played the aggressor and covering roles alternatively as the situation demanded quite well.

I am a little stubborn and still don't prefer Cannavaro with a player similar to him and don't count him as a complete CB to the extent to which most people seem to evidently do and would probably never build a partnership like that, but I can agree I was being way too harsh with my judgement. Its good enough most of the times.
While as I said its good enough most of the times, but against a team where all the front 6 are expected to press and can do it really well, having a ball playing CB really helps not lose possession in risky areas. Really crucial to have players who can come out of those tricky less space situations to avoid just clearing/hoofing the ball after most presses and losing possession. From a defensive point of view, while Cannavaro-Vierchowod are fine, from a press resisting point of view, I think they are underwhelming.

Overall it’s a more possession-oriented side
Also since the OP mentions it to be a more possession-oriented side, the CB partnership is not my cup of tea.

I expect most to still disagree on this bit and that is okay. Hasn't stopped me from putting forth my ideas in the past and won't stop now :)
 
Last edited:

Synco

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Replacing the "injured" players with Stam and Giggs is quite a statement, the setup works just as well this way (with Zanetti/Thuram being the only stylistic change). Funnily, that team is 5/11 of what Physio and I were aiming for in the No Mates Draft, 6 if our early pipe dream of Matthäus counts.

As it is with all-time drafts, Harms' team would be unbelievable in real life as well, and would still have a decent chance to win this. But the opposition is a perfect blend of individual quality and collective cohesion for me.

I’d argue that he was their 4th most important player after Messi, Xavi & Iniesta.
Offensively, I think he is the most gifted right back of all-time
Agree with these statements on Dani Alves. I really should have placed him higher in my top 20 (nudge, nudge) vote.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Funnily, that team is 5/11 of what Physio and I were aiming for in the No Mates Draft, 6 if our early pipe dream of Matthäus counts.
Did notice that and the feedback from that game helped.

------------------Riva-------------------
Best--------------------------Hamrin
-------Suarez--------Gullit-----------
---------------Voronin-----------------

From what I read in the SF of that draft, Gullit was not as well appreciated as he should be in the No.8 role as his goal scoring was expected to take a hit as per the comments. I didn't fully agree with it as position on the sheet hardly matters with Gullit, but we wanted to avoid the same and decided to only use him in the 4-4-2 second striker role
 

Synco

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From what I read in the SF of that draft, Gullit was not as well appreciated as he should be in the No.8 role as his goal scoring was expected to take a hit as per the comments. I didn't fully agree with it as position on the sheet hardly matters with Gullit, but we wanted to avoid the same and decided to only use him in the 4-4-2 role
Yes, and that's a main reason why I think this 4-4-2 would work so well. His mobility, wide range of movement, and workrate grant effective support for the midfield two in & out of possession, while he's still providing a prime threat in & around the box.

Here are excerpts from a game where he's generally supposed to have played as a second striker besides Van Basten:



I think Spielverlagerung got the arrows on him quite right:
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Harms' Voronin compilation from the 1966 WC when USSR beat Mazzola's Italy 1-0

Voronin with a fairly expansive role showcasing his play both on and off the ball

 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Lilian Thuram - Zero to Hero - 1998 WC semifinals vs Croatia - Perhaps his most significant performance from Right back

Fecks up big time playing Suker onside for the opening goal



Scores the equalizer



Scores the winner in terrific fashion

 

harms

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It doesn't look like it's going to be a real competition, which is fair enough - even though there's not much between the teams, I'd probably went with my opponent as well if I was a neutral. As I said earlier, that bit of business in the auction round (picking Voronin for 15m and essentially blocking Rijkaard & Desailly while also draining a few managers of their funds) was a draft-winning action and it proved to be one. If I were to get Desailly alongside Law (which I would've without MSTQ's involvement), I would've had a chance, but since then I was basically 1 round behind and it showed in the end.

The only player that can be truly upgraded in their side is Breitner — and not because of his quality, but because his, perhaps, too creative and free-roaming nature, but it's not like he couldn't play in a more reserved role, I guess. The rest is one of the best 4-4-2 that I've seen here, and I'm a sucker for a well-executed 4-4-2.

Congratulations @Michaelf7777777 (is this the first one for you?) @GodShaveTheQueen

Thanks for the immensely fun draft, even though I've criticised some of the decisions along the way, it was because I was so invested in it and simply fascinated by some of the tasks & criteria @Šjor Bepo @Jim Beam @Pat_Mustard
 

Jim Beam

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Great team by harms and an upgrade from a semi-finale despite losing Tigana. It is really hard to separate sides and could have gone either way objectively.

But... As a Sacchi team, MSTQ is really impressive and scores points for the theme and perfect balance in terms of collective which gives him the edge imo. I wanted to go with Sacchi theme before, but come drafting went in other ways. Considering MSTQ didn't use any of Van Basten, Rijkaard or Baresi it is even more admirable.

It is so good from Michael & GodShave combo that:

a) trumps all my imaginary teams
b) puts me off from Sacchi theme for the foreseeable future

That said, I have another theme which shits all over this one, so feck you both.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Thanks @harms

Congratulations on an excellent draft to you too. Coming all the way to the final sporting Faubert, Ozil, Boateng, Kane etc en route is an impressive feat, especially the Faubert risk in the first game.

Congratulations to @Michaelf7777777 as well. We won it in the end because of the initial drafting which was almost spotless and a hell lot of credit goes to him for the research. Wish I could share some of his brilliant shortlists for each round from our chats. I think he is one of the few purist drafters around who doesn't mind going with the lesser shiny names and I appreciate that bit the most.

Probably the most fun I have had in a draft here. Great job @Šjor Bepo @Jim Beam @Pat_Mustard

Call me a cnut, but I really enjoyed each of the controversial moments from Zanetti to transfer cancellation to the auction gate :lol:
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Great team by harms and an upgrade from a semi-finale despite losing Tigana. It is really hard to separate sides and could have gone either way objectively.

But... As a Sacchi team, MSTQ is really impressive and scores points for the theme and perfect balance in terms of collective which gives him the edge imo. I wanted to go with Sacchi theme before, but come drafting went in other ways. Considering MSTQ didn't use any of Van Basten, Rijkaard or Baresi it is even more admirable.

It is so good from Michael & GodShave combo that:

a) trumps all my imaginary teams
b) puts me off from Sacchi theme for the foreseeable future

That said, I have another theme which shits all over this one, so feck you both.
Cheers mate. Really enjoyed building that team.