Draft About Nothing - R1: Moby vs P-nut

With players at their career peak, who would win?


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Šjor Bepo

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vs


Moby
Key Highlights:

  • Best player on the pitch Michel Platini put in his signature favoured setup, with a mouthwatering midfield surrounding him as well as two dynamic scintillating forwards breaking through in front of him.
  • In Luis Suarez Miramontes, he has an elite playmaker to combine with, together they will dominate possession and the interplay between the lines will cause chaos for the opposition.
  • All of Robson, Suarez and Platini share incredible work ethic, and will be battling it out in the middle the whole game. Robbo's engine and ability on the ball fits in like a glove here.
  • Stoichkov and Suarez both press incredibly, making sure the opposition cannot play out from the back, and will punish the slightest mistake.
  • Stoichkov's hardworking and stretching the backline will allow a lot of space for Platini and Suarez to work their magic into, and it will work similar to the Platini - Boniek dynamic at Juve.
  • The left flank is devastating with Roberto Carlos overlapping outside Stoichkov, while the right side stays more in defense with Woodgate tucking in.
  • Both Hristo and Stoichkov can play as wide forwards allowing Platini to move into goalscoring positions and put his destructive goal threat to great effect. Similarly, Robson will enjoy moving into the vacated space, providing a great long range option or a late run into the box. Conversely, Suarez can drop deep when either move forward, ensuring the balance remains in midfield and possession is never neglected.
  • In Lucio and Santamaria we have two tough as nails centre backs and the great Gordon Banks is the last line of defense.


P-nut
Just working on the basic premise of a WM.

Thuram and Howedes comfortable defending out wide as well as central. Picchi playing the sweeper role, holding the defence together.

Didi is the creative lynch pin in midfield, with Stile providing the graft.

De Bruyne will roam the attacking midfield space, whilst Hidegkuti pushes further forward aiding V. Nistelrooy.

Sterling and Eder can stay high and pin the opposition full backs in defence.
 

berbasloth4

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two very interesting sides and formations.

im trying to look at the weakspots and figure out who can exploit it better.

Gago and woodgate are big weakspot in belief, I believe eder would have too much fun if the service is right.

with pnut its basically 5 defenders 5 attackers, I can see Moby having tons of possession but in front of that 5. to allow platini and suarez all that space is suicidal.

Suarez and stoichkov are two of the best attacker ever for working the lines and trying to find space down channels, I just feel there would be far too many chances to try play them in and eventually they will get chances or platini will smash one from distance.

I do think eder with the right service and Van nistelrooy who used tear lucio a new one would be extremely dangerous and have chances, i just feel Moby with platini and suarez in controlling possession he would have too much.
 

P-Nut

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Couple of points here, Carlos is going to have to be massively disciplined here, Sterling being allowed to dribble against CBs is suicidal nowadays.

Sure he hasn't always been amazing, but his last 2+ seasons he has been putting up insane numbers.

23 from 46 17/18
25 from 51 18/19
14 from 16 19/20

Santamaria whilst a top defender has his weaknesses as pointed out by his manager amongst others...

Chumpitaz and Santamaria aren't good enough to tie Nesta's shoelaces.
I’d vouch for that. Take any random sample of footage of Santamaria or Godin and it’s the former who is most likely to be at fault for goals conceded. Other factors to consider in terms of overall influence, but only one winner I can see in defensive nous and organisational ability.
I'd second that also. I've been underwhelmed by Santamaria from what I've watched.
Now I'm not saying Santamaria doesn't deserve to be recognised as a great defender, but he's going to struggle with the movement of Sterling in and around him, if Carlos does bomb on as specified in Mobys write up.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Now I'm not saying Santamaria doesn't deserve to be recognised as a great defender, but he's going to struggle with the movement of Sterling in and around him, if Carlos does bomb on as specified in Mobys write up.
That was a Uber attacking Real team with less regard for defense. Still he was doing some sort of last man standing role holding it up.

If you play Godin the the old Real set up, he'd get creamed far worse.
 

berbasloth4

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sterling pace has always been a danger is it a threat vs carlos? is the fact that santamaria played in an era where defenders could tackle go against sterling?
 

Moby

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Interesting formation by PNut but incredibly ballsy to go with a depleted backline against the forwards I have on show.

The set up is designed for the best player on the pitch, Michel Platini to shine. With two incredibly mobile forwards in Hristo Stoichkov and Luis Suarez, Platini will massively enjoy getting so much space in front of their defense and can use his incredible playmaking skills as well as his goalscoring form to move into the vacated space once the forwards start dragging the defenders around.

Howedes clearly is a weak point in that backline, and with a fluid frontline such as mine, it will be a huge task to contain the threat. Similarly, Picchi enjoyed playing with a lot of cover around him in terms of pure muscle, as well as very strong defensive midfields in very defensive setups, however, if he is isolated by playing like Stoichkov or Suarez, more likely the latter and one who is incredible with his close control, skills, tricks and ability to score from anywhere in the box, he will not have a great time there.

Not to forget the goal threat from midfield in both Suarez and Robson. When we are dominating possession, these two will need no invitation to occupy dangerous positions outside the box or Robson making a late run when the opposition defenders are busy in marking the forwards. The overall goal threat, playmaking skills, close control skills and tricks are too much for this defense to handle and I cannot see them not scoring heavily here.

Especially given we are set to dominate possession here and have most of the ball in front of their defense, they could have done with one more defender at the expense of one of those attackers, who likely are surplus for a team devoid of the ball for a lot of time.
 

Moby

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Also, going back to the magic square Platini loved playing in, he had another brilliant playmaker in Giresse. While Giresse may not be the biggest name in that particular team, he was a stalwart for the teams he played in his club career, often the one who created most of the chances, with slick control on the ball, and incredible vision to go with it. Of course, Platini was the star for the NT but having someone so gifted on the ball was a huge part of that midfield.

Suarez is a massive upgrade on that. On the ball, he brings more patience, control, ability to tame midfields with his control of tempo, ball movement and can easily kill the opposition with one pass when needed. Off the ball, he is an upgrade in terms of tenacity, work rate and stamina, and could constantly move from a deeper position to an advanced one as per the situation which would complement Platini who himself had constant vertical movement in order to shift from playmaker to goalscorer.

I could have easily played Suarez in a deeper role with another AM in his place, however, Suarez himself excelled as an advanced playmaker in the first half of his career for Barca and Spain, he won his Ballon D'or while at Barcelona where he was practically an inside forward, or an advanced playmaker who provided a dangerous goal threat along with his playmaking.

The pair of these two Ballon D'or winners in that part of the pitch is a mouthwatering combination in terms of link up play, passing and movement, creativity and ball retention, great work rate to constantly be on the move and both being capable of playing in perfect through balls for the two mobile forwards. That kind of individual quality and combined chemistry will cause havoc in front of their goal without doubt.
 

Moby

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Coming to the rest of the midfield, again, that magic square had a tireless presence in Tigana, who was an extremely vital cog in terms of pressing the opposition, battling for possession and winning the ball to kick start counters. Keeping that in mind, I went with Robson for that position, who is as good an engine you can ever hope for, while being exquisite on the ball and not losing the possession domination quality of that midfield. Selfless as they come, he would happily do a lot of the dirty work required for the two AMs to shine, as well as enjoy being in that company, will fit in extremely well in their moving square, as he has the ability to drive forward himself when an opportunity arises. But most of all, his workrate, stamina, tenacity and mental toughness in the heart of that midfield will be invaluable, and we expect him to constantly dispossess the opposition and immediately get the ball rolling for the forward line.

Gago of course was a sheep, however with this midfield setup I have done enough to cover for his weaknesses and put him in the company of three all time great midfielders, who should be able to utilize his presence in productive manner. Especially with a juggernaut like Robson alongside him - who isn't alien to playing alongside average players at times and still dominate the game - he should be able to add to that midfield and he isn't completely useless when it comes to passing the ball around, which will be fine given the amount of ball we will have and always have players around him close by for a simple passing option.
 

P-Nut

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That was a Uber attacking Real team with less regard for defense. Still he was doing some sort of last man standing role holding it up.

If you play Godin the the old Real set up, he'd get creamed far worse.
This is still an uber attacking set up by Moby when you break it down. Woodgate at RB is a sheep placeholder, he'll get beat time and again.

Gago in midfield with Robson leaves Robson a hell of a lot of work, and with both De Bruyne and Hidegkuti in there to boot. If he's planning on getting up and down, at times Gago will be left dealing with both of them.

Then we come to Carlos instructions to bomb down the wing and overlap Stoichkov.

All in all this is not a balanced defensive set up, and Santamaria will be expected to perform a role similar to the one he did in his day. A role where he was at fault for goals quite often, again due to the attacking style.

sterling pace has always been a danger is it a threat vs carlos? is the fact that santamaria played in an era where defenders could tackle go against sterling?
Sterling is about much, much more than pace now. His movement in and around the area has gone up 10 fold, and here he is linking up with his best partner in De Bruyne. I managed to find an all touch video of his game against West Ham, and you can see how little of it is due to his speed, but more the movement he makes to get the space to score.


Speaking of De Bruyne, he's in the perfect position here to do this...


The Sterling goal you can see the defence is set up pretty much perfectly and as Moby describes his will be when in good shape. The RB is tucked in and the full back has cover, but the cross is just too good.

Also a bonus goal from RVN from a Beckham cross in the same position.
 

harms

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Didi should be an inside-forward in that formation, no two ways about it.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Didi should be an inside-forward in that formation, no two ways about it.
Au Contraire. Are you saying he can't play the Bozsik role?

I thought the role given to him in this formation was an inspired and ballsy one.

Probably not the best idea in the defensive scheme of things, but these formations were never meant to be defensive.

Its either create a bang or go out with a bang :drool:
 

P-Nut

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Au Contraire. Are you saying he can't play the Bozsik role?

I thought the role given to him in this formation was an inspired and ballsy one.

Probably not the best idea in the defensive scheme of things, but these formations were never meant to be defensive.

Its either create a bang or go out with a bang :drool:
I think he means Didi was an actual inside forward, so all being well I likely would play him there.

But, as you say I've basically just gone all out attack to try and exploit Mobys weaknesses in Woodgate and Gago, whilst causing Carlos a headache.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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I think he means Didi was an actual inside forward, so all being well I likely would play him there.
He played both the AM role and the DLP role from what I know.

The DLP version is a brilliant replacement for Bozsik in the Hungary 1954 setup in my eyes.

 

GodShaveTheQueen

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I actually think Didi as an inside forward in this setup is a wastage.

With Hidegkuti, you'd want an actual striker who would score for fun. Like Kocsis and Puskas.

Hidegkuti while being a great scorer, was primarily known for his creative play.

You don't need all three of Didi, Hidegkuti and De Bruyne trying to create chances for no one.
 

harms

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Au Contraire. Are you saying he can't play the Bozsik role?

I thought the role given to him in this formation was an inspired and ballsy one.

Probably not the best idea in the defensive scheme of things, but these formations were never meant to be defensive.

Its either create a bang or go out with a bang :drool:
It's not Hungary's formation though. It's a classic W-M, where half backs, in this case, are responsible for defending against Platini and Suarez. Can you imagine Didi doing that? :lol:

W-M requires a certain balance. Here you have a brilliant back 3, a fitting DM in Stiles and feck all else. And it's not only Suarez & Platini we're talking about, having tons of space, it's Robson as well.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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It's not Hungary's formation though. It's a classic W-M, where half backs, in this case, are responsible for defending against Platini and Suarez. Can you imagine Didi doing that? :lol:
I am not even talking about the game and opposition.

I am only talking about the setup in isolation.

Obviously same questions would be asked of Bozsik if he was played against this opposition, that is the nature of drafts.

But in isolation, the setup is beautiful in my eyes.

I also don't think its a classic WM, half backs wise. From the OP

Didi is the creative lynch pin in midfield, with Stile providing the graft.
That is as Hungary 1954 a midfield as it gets
 

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I dislike the idea that Carlos is some sort of a defensive liability that is easy to exploit. I mean, he played LB in a back 4 for most of his career with not much support in front of him and wasn't exactly turned inside out on a regular basis or anything. My impression of him is that he was a solid defender and a devastating attacker.

I get the point about him being caught upfield, but that doesn't often happen in a game IMO. When team Moby has the ball, that WM formation shifts to ensure that there are more players behind the ball so the only option to really catch him out is a quick counter via a pass to Sterling, who will find himself running at Santamaria with Lucio covering RVN. They could score, but it's not all that certain.
 

Himannv

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Obviously same questions would be asked of Bozsik if he was played against this opposition
Why? He's played there his entire career and is rated as one of the greatest playmaking DLPs of all time. I spent some time watching footage of him as part of the last draft and I thought he was phenomenal with his positioning, reading of the game, and distribution. He's also quite good in the air and can definitely tackle. I get the point about him not being energetic, but if he's paired with an energetic partner I don't see many problems. Saying he can't play in a two man central midfield is like saying Scirea can't play in a two man central defence.

I haven't seen enough of Didi as a DLP so cannot comment on the comparison. I've always thought of him as an inside forward.
 

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Also wanted to add that my CBs are stylistically a good fit for containing a striker like RvN. Lucio was excellent in the air, while Santamaria is also a stopper who can restrict RvN's aerial dominance and cut out the supply to him. Not to say they will give him no chance but their strengths will favour them to mark a player like RvN.
 

harms

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That is as Hungary 1954 a midfield as it gets
If you limit their midfield to 2 players - okay. For me you can't have a Hungarian midfield with a completely different front 3 set up, considering how Hidegkuti and Puskas participated in the middle. WM always requires a highly energetic players at half backs. Bozsik had way more fight in him than Didi. Playing Didi in this role is maybe not suicidal, but it's a complete waste of his enormous talents.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Why? He's played there his entire career and is rated as one of the greatest playmaking DLPs of all time.
I dont say he should be questioned. I am saying he will be questioned in draft games just like Didi is being here. If you have picked and played him in the past, you'd now what I mean.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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If you limit their midfield to 2 players - okay. For me you can't have a Hungarian midfield with a completely different front 3 set up, considering how Hidegkuti and Puskas participated in the middle. WM always requires a highly energetic players at half backs. Bozsik had way more fight in him than Didi. Playing Didi in this role is maybe not suicidal, but it's a complete waste of his enormous talents.
Come on, you cant expect a replica or remake. You can borrow some ideas.

Also, its a round 1 team in a draft run by cnuts of the highest order. Obviously it wont be perfect.
 

P-Nut

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I dislike the idea that Carlos is some sort of a defensive liability that is easy to exploit. I mean, he played LB in a back 4 for most of his career with not much support in front of him and wasn't exactly turned inside out on a regular basis or anything. My impression of him is that he was a solid defender and a devastating attacker.

I get the point about him being caught upfield, but that doesn't often happen in a game IMO. When team Moby has the ball, that WM formation shifts to ensure that there are more players behind the ball so the only option to really catch him out is a quick counter via a pass to Sterling, who will find himself running at Santamaria with Lucio covering RVN. They could score, but it's not all that certain.
Yeah he's a top defender, it's more about tactical instructions. Moby in his OP has Carlos bombing on the overlap beyond Stoichkov, any full back instructed to constantly overlap will leave massive spaces for a winger that isn't tracking them back.
 

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Yeah he's a top defender, it's more about tactical instructions. Moby in his OP has Carlos bombing on the overlap beyond Stoichkov, any full back instructed to constantly overlap will leave massive spaces for a winger that isn't tracking them back.
Well, if there is an example of a defender who overlapped his entire career and did it brilliantly, it would be Roberto Carlos. He has won the greatest honours in the game while being a centerpiece down the left flank of those teams, and at his peak he was one of the most celebrated players in the world, not just defenders. And he worked with pretty much same instructions throughout that time.






Those are two Champions League finals winning teams, where both the times he was in narrow formations and pretty much the sole contributor in terms of attack. He provided the winning assist in 2002 to Zidane for that brilliant volley goal.

Here he has a hard working winger like Stoichkov who will usually help him out off the ball. And arguably a better CB pair than those games as well. However, given the team is set out of have most of the ball, it will be his attacking contribution that will be on show for most of the game. We can see how when City or Liverpool constantly attack, the likes of Robertson, Zinchenko, Mendy practically play like wingers the whole time, which is what I expect from Carlos in this game, and he won't be isolated many times by the opposition winger, and he has enough defensive nous to not get beaten there. He isn't some Ashley Young sort of hopeless defender.

So basically once you factor in the midfields, his position becomes a lot safer and effective going forward.
 

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@Himannv
Pretty much agree with all of your points. Attacking fullbacks and DLPs (and sometimes, but less frequently, liberos) tend to suffer a bit in draft discussions.
Yeah he's a top defender, it's more about tactical instructions. Moby in his OP has Carlos bombing on the overlap beyond Stoichkov, any full back instructed to constantly overlap will leave massive spaces for a winger that isn't tracking them back.
This is a discussion that keeps repeating as well. My opinion: a winger not tracking the FB may be a potential ace up the sleeve on the break, but first of all it's a defensive problem. A massive one when that untracked FB is Roberto Carlos. So before I can appreciate the counter threat, I'd need to know how the plan is to cover that defensive hole.
 

harms

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Come on, you cant expect a replica or remake. You can borrow some ideas.

Also, its a round 1 team in a draft run by cnuts of the highest order. Obviously it wont be perfect.
Well, you keep bringing out examples that have little to do with Didi or the current set up, how am I supposed to react? For me, it's a blunder to play Didi like that. You can play him in midfield two, but the conditions have to be vastly different.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Well, you keep bringing out examples that have little to do with Didi or the current set up, how am I supposed to react? For me, it's a blunder to play Didi like that. You can play him in midfield two, but the conditions have to be vastly different.
And I keep telling you, I am talking of the team in isolation and not talking about just the match.
 

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@Himannv
Pretty much agree with all of your points. Attacking fullbacks and DLPs (and sometimes, but less frequently, liberos) tend to suffer a bit in draft discussions.

This is a discussion that keeps repeating as well. My opinion: a winger not tracking the FB may be a potential ace up the sleeve on the break, but first of all it's a defensive problem. A massive one when that untracked FB is Roberto Carlos. So before I can appreciate the counter threat, I'd need to know how the plan is to cover that defensive hole.
Precisely this, thanks for bringing it up.

While on the odd counter you may catch him off guard, but what about the majority of the game where you have a 3-man backline tasked with defending against Stoichkov on that flank with Carlos overlapping. Is Sterling going to be all the way back there defending? Don't think so. Thuram is great but he cannot defend against both Stoichkov and Carlos at once, and that's a pretty massive route for attack for me, given Carlos' elite ability from out wide. With the likes of Platini bombing towards goal in the middle, Suarez spearheading the attacking and even Robson positioned at a good range with an open shot can be picked out with ease, and it will lead to a ton of goalscoring opportunities down that flank.

The right side of Pnut's defense is pretty much a glaring opportunity for me to completely exploit and overwhelm that defense.
 

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Also wanted to add that my CBs are stylistically a good fit for containing a striker like RvN. Lucio was excellent in the air, while Santamaria is also a stopper who can restrict RvN's aerial dominance and cut out the supply to him. Not to say they will give him no chance but their strengths will favour them to mark a player like RvN.
Your biggest concern there is Eder fizzing shots on goal - and he's likely to get a few off - and RvN scrambling for any scraps off the keeper.
 

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Woodgate is a massive problem. He was not so impressive at CB, but from what I remember he had some really bad perfomances at RB. Second, he will not provide any width which leaves Robson with an awful lot to do (too much for even someone like Robbo).

That attack might win every match though. Draw, 6-6 or something.

Also, its a round 1 team in a draft run by cnuts of the highest order. Obviously it wont be perfect.
:lol:

Oh, almost forgot. I like Didi position here too.
 

berbasloth4

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unpopular opinion : i believe Carlos is massive overrated as a left back. I am old fashioned and believe a full backs first job should be to defend and he was quite poor at it
 

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Brutal scoreline :(. Neither defence looked remotely capable of containing the opposition attack, but I liked Pnut's chances here and probably would have voted for him were it not for me agreeing with @harms that Didi doesn't look a good fit alongside Stiles for this match.