Draft About Nothing - SF: Harms vs EAP

With players at their career peak, who would win?


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Synco

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Leaving the odd one tournament partnerships aside (which itself was forced by Nesta getting injured), could you list any great stopper stopper partnerships in say a league campaign? For example, in the premier league's 30 year old history for instance?
There's probably none, as stopper types rarely exist in football anymore, especially at the highest level. And as I said, I don't see Cannavaro as a stopper type, but a modern allround CB.

Hence my question about Vierchowod, he's the question mark for me.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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There's probably none, as stopper types rarely exist in football anymore, especially at the highest level. And as I said, I don't see Cannavaro as a stopper type, but a modern allround CB.
Hmm, fair enough. I disagree on Cannavaro but that is upto each ones perception I guess.
 

harms

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I like that you need to find a different pair to prove that Cannavaro can work with another stopper and the actual tournament where he provided arguably the greatest defensive performance in the World Cup history (definitely in my top-3) is not seen as an argument.

@Synco Vierchowod played until 2000 and showed that he can adapt to the zonal marking as good as anyone. I don’t like to quote wiki, but I’d agree with this assessment and I’m on the phone so it’s hard to look for other sources. He’s not a limited man-marker, even though he performed incredibly as one - and he definitely can work with any type of defenders next to him as he showed throughout his career.

Usually deployed as a man-marking "stopper" in his early career, functioning as a more defensive-minded foil for a sweeper, his speed, powerful physique, anticipation, positional sense, decisiveness in his challenges, and ability to read the game enabled him to break down opposing plays, win back possession, and intercept loose balls; these attributes, also allowed him to excel in the zonal marking defensive system during his later career
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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I like that you need to find a different pair to prove that Cannavaro can work with another stopper and the actual tournament where he provided arguably the greatest defensive performance in the World Cup history (definitely in my top-3) is not seen as an argument.
It was an out of the world individual performance. Absolutely no one till date has called Materazzi Cannavaro a world beating pair.

In an all time draft where I give way more weight to partnerships rather than individual performances, I'd hardly call Cannavaro Vierchowod a world beating one just like Materazzi Cannavaro
 

Synco

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@Synco Vierchowod played until 2000 and showed that he can adapt to the zonal marking as good as anyone. I don’t like to quote wiki, but I’d agree with this assessment and I’m on the phone so it’s hard to look for other sources. He’s not a limited man-marker, even though he performed incredibly as one - and he definitely can work with any type of defenders next to him as he showed throughout his career.
If that's the case, then my caveats are obsolete. Especially since you play a (moderately) deep defensive formation this match, which allows for a relatively conservative CB duo in any case. High press on your buildup might perhaps have posed a few questions, but Edgar doesn't seem to do that.
 

2mufc0

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Cannavaro - Vierchowod is a fine partnership and compliment each other fine.
 

harms

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It's my same old qualm with drafts. Shinier names triumph more natural fits. Heyy, but as long as it works, who cares. It's not like Tigana-Falcao is losing you any votes
It's getting almost as tiresome as my Zanetti crusade, but at least I don't pretend that it has anything to do with football.

You've criticised Falcão & Neeskens (with Netzer ahead of them) and that was fair enough, as that partnership took a lot from Neeskens' game. If you remember, after I "religiously defender" (when?) that partnership, I picked Voronin and unleashed those 2 in a more attacking roles.

You've criticised Robson & Luis Suarez behind Platini and that was fair enough, as that partnership took a lot from Robson's game.

You're criticising Falcão & Tigana because it takes a lot from whom exactly? A few quotes not from myself, as I've said enough words on the matter, I couldn't resist as I've only recently watched tons of Tigana games for France, Bordeaux & Marseille. I'd consider Tigana's 1984 Euros tournament as his peak performance, not that the real tournament performances matter more than your hypotheticals, as we've seen with Cannavaro.

Every great team is composed of different characters. There may be a few stars in the team, but there also those that keep their feet grounded and work for the team tirelessly and constantly. These individuals are also the reason why the marquee stars of the side are capable of showing their best qualities because they don’t need to sacrifice any part of their game, there are others who will do the necessary. And for Michel Hidalgo’s French national team in the early 1980s, that selfless individual was none other than Jean Tigana. ---- (he was literally a player that allows marquee stars to shine, not another "big name" that was picked in spite of the team's balance - harms)

Tigana’s influence on French football can be observed in today’s modern box-to-box midfielders like N’Golo Kanté, Blaise Matuidi, Tanguy Ndombele. Much like Tigana’s style of play, these players venture forward when necessary and contribute to offensive football, however, their main purpose is to maintain the balance of play in the middle of the park and ensure that defensive solidity is maintained. This assurance in midfield allows the more creative players to express themselves freely without having to worry about tracking back or marking opposition attackers.

Tigana was a player for every manager. His attitude was top class and his work ethic was of the highest order. Although he was deployed usually as a holding midfielder, Tigana’s tireless work-rate in midfield was also complemented by the occasional stride forward to support his attackers in the final third. This tendency to dominate the middle of the park defensively made him popular in France in the early ‘80s and also led to his call-up to the French national team under Hidalgo. Tigana’s loyalty to Bordeaux was unflinching and the combative midfielder earned a great reputation with the Girondins fans. Although Tigana wasn’t tall or muscular, like many modern box-to-box midfielders, he was a tireless worker and used to impose himself by pressing the opposition’s attackers into giving up the ball. Slowly and gradually, the man built his reputation and became one of Europe’s finest box-to-box midfielders. While Giresse was the classy midfielder who was a composed figure on the ball and knew how to make his way past a defence, Fernández was the deepest of the four and played the role of the deep playmaker, however, he did not play a major role in the defensive aspects of Hidalgo’s side, that was Tigana’s work.
Another no-name who probably doesn't know enough about the French football of the 80's. Notice that for whatever reason the first quality he highlights is Tigana's unreal defensive ability and engine.
Arsene Wenger said:
I remember Tigana was 63kg, a defensive midfielder and he was unbelievable defensively. He had that technique. I played against him [in a kickabout] at the European Championship in Sweden in 1992 and he was still the same – he won every challenge.
Jean Tigana spent his entire career as a water-carrier, even though he was probably the most elegant water-carrier that ever existed. Even for Bordeaux, where his playmaking side was understandably highlighted more he was often the deepest midfielder that took care of the opposition's AM. We can call him a box-to-box as a reference to his engine, and I'd definitely call him that, although I'd put him in the defensive box-to-box category. But if we look at the literal definition of that term, basically it's a player that wins the ball in his box and then drives forward to score, say, a header at the other side of the pitch — Bryan Robson would be the perfect example of such a player. You would almost never see Tigana in the opposition's penalty box though. In fact, he scored 37 times in 16 seasons of his professional career. The likes of Robson & Neeskens can probably score as many in 2 - 2,5 seasons. He was a great passer of the ball and a fantastic dribbler, but most of his assists also came after his passing from deep. What does this role takes from his game? What attributes does he lack to perform a role that I ask of him?
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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You've criticised Falcão & Neeskens (with Netzer ahead of them) and that was fair enough, as that partnership took a lot from Neeskens' game. If you remember, after I "religiously defender" (when?) that partnership, I picked Voronin and unleashed those 2 in a more attacking roles
You did religiously defended it during the first game you played them in. Did you agree during that game that it was not great? No, you agreed after you won and had reinforcements to change things. Big whoop.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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You're criticising Falcão & Tigana because it takes a lot from whom exactly?
Go read the first game OP of this draft. You played Tigana as a B2B. I distinctly remember as I read everyone's OP no matter how big or small. Go check the graphics from next round, you placed Tigana deeper. What forced that change? Surely it wasn't a slip of mouse?
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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I'd consider Tigana's 1984 Euros tournament as his peak performance, not that the real tournament performances matter more than your hypotheticals, as we've seen with Cannavaro.
And he had a holder behind him in 1984 Euros as well. It's not like real life positions matter to you. Ironic.
 

harms

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Go read the first game OP of this draft. You played Tigana as a B2B. I distinctly remember as I read everyone's OP no matter how big or small. Go check the graphics from next round, you placed Tigana deeper. What forced that change? Surely it wasn't a slip of mouse?
Yeah, I hoped that it'll shut you up as it was getting tiring :) I prefer to go for symmetrical formations with the roles either defined or assumed by the nature of the given players.

And he had a holder behind him in 1984 Euros as well. It's not like real life positions matter to you. Ironic.
And even that is addressed in my post :) More so, Fernandez not always played with the rest of them and he was often replaced by an even more attacking Genghini... can you imagine how a midfield of Platini, Giresse, Genghini & Tigana would be shaped up? :angel:
 

harms

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Shut me up? Huh, okay. Good debate. Cheers.
A longer and a more polite version of the same, as I didn't really mean to offend you — it was easier to make a visual change rather than to continue arguing with you over the same point, which is tiring. It didn't help though.
 

harms

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Last post on the thread.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ludo-draft-r1-pnut-vs-harms.447336/

So what happened to symmetry here in this game in a 4-4-2? Why is Voronin deeper and Schuster ahead? I guess it's meant to be in 3D. My bad.
It had Ronald Koeman. As you can notice, 2/3 of my write up was a detailed description of the system I created to cover his weaknesses and maximise his strengths, and some of those had to be visualised as well. And "I prefer to" is not really the same as "I always do that and I never once did an asymmetrical before and you can quote me on that", although who cares about the semantics.

We're setting this up nicely for the potential climax, aren't we, @Šjor Bepo?
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Good luck @harms . You're essentially playing my R1 team as the mods have screwed up all possible reinforcements and I had to do with Souness and Blokhin, both whom I didn't want and don't really improve my team. Expected a one sided match.

Happy to have gotten a WM to semi's though. Now back to building a pyramid. :D
 

Jim Beam

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He chose you because he thought you're the weakest. That's motivation my friend.

Step 1. 5 beers and random shoting on the street

Step 2. Russian connection and Blokhin for the kill

Step 3. Drunk at the tree for some random votes
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Good luck @harms . You're essentially playing my R1 team as the mods have screwed up all possible reinforcements and I had to do with Souness and Blokhin, both whom I didn't want and don't really improve my team. Expected a one sided match.

Happy to have gotten a WM to semi's though. Now back to building a pyramid. :D
I thought you might go Laudrup Blokhin in reinforcements.

Blokhin-------Shearer--------Kalle
-------Laudrup---------Xavi----------
---------Netto-------Busquets------
----Breigel---Sammer--Vogts-----

Granted still a back 3 but like that front 5 and midfield a lot more personally. Would have won my vote in all likelihood.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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I thought you might go Laudrup Blokhin in reinforcements.

Blokhin-------Shearer--------Kalle
-------Laudrup---------Xavi----------
---------Netto-------Busquets------
----Breigel---Sammer--Vogts-----

Granted still a back 3 but like that front 5 and midfield a lot more personally. Would have won my vote in all likelihood.
Considered that. Also getting Cabrini and Reuter and fielding 5-3-2.
 

harms

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Good luck @harms . You're essentially playing my R1 team as the mods have screwed up all possible reinforcements and I had to do with Souness and Blokhin, both whom I didn't want and don't really improve my team. Expected a one sided match.

Happy to have gotten a WM to semi's though. Now back to building a pyramid. :D
Cheers. It was a very well-drafted team for the R1, you got unlucky with that auction round.
 

Gio

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Cannavaro - Vierchowod is a fine partnership and compliment each other fine.
This. Don’t really see it as a talking point either in Cannavaro’s style on the stopper/covering spectrum or as a perceived stopper/stopper partnership. Cannavaro shone alongside an eclectic mix of CB partners over the years (Thuram, Sensini, Nesta, Materazzi, Cordoba, Costacurta) primarily because he was modern and well-rounded with barely any chinks.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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For what its worth, it did re watch a couple of full games (one just today, the Final) from that 2006 WC and think Cannavaro and Materrazi played the aggressor and covering roles alternatively as the situation demanded quite well.

I am a little stubborn and still don't prefer Cannavaro with a player similar to him and don't count him as a complete CB to the extent to which most people seem to evidently do and would probably never build a partnership like that, but I can agree I was being way too harsh with my judgement. Its good enough most of the times.