Draft About Nothing - SF: Moby vs Michaelf/GSTQ

With players at their career peak, who would win?


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Šjor Bepo

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Moby
Overall Plan

  • An absolutely mouth watering midfield foundation set to dominate the opposition on both sides of the pitch with FOUR absolutely mercurial midfielders on show here.
  • A tough as nails defensive partnership at the back with the Brazilian fullback duo providing the balance on the flanks, and two absolutely sizzling forwards to tear it up at the front.
  • Set out to be compact and combative in defense, force constant turnovers and break quickly with incredible transitions from front to back through the middle as well as out wide.
  • Overload the creative engine in the middle with an array of unpredictable passing moves to cut through the opposition lines, with some absolutely tremendous ability on the ball on show.

Magic Square
  • Michel Platini is the best player on the pitch in this game, and the team has been setup to bring the absolute best out of the three time Ballon D'or winner. He'll be in his element.
  • The base is solidified with one of the greatest holding midfielders ever in Fernando Redondo, who brings in his incredible passing and vision from the back as well as plugging the gaps in front of the defense.
  • Alongside him is Captain Marvel! Robson takes up the all action box to box duties in the middle - taking on Lothar Matthaus head to head in what would be an absolutely titanic battle in the middle of the pitch. Two absolutely complete midfielders, and we aim to win that and put a massive dent on the opposition ability to get a foothold in the middle.
  • Partnering Platini is another Ballon D'or winner in Luisito Suarez, a creative genius throughout his career, combining incredible passing and creativity with tireless running and defense, as well as the ability to push out wide on the flank.
  • The entire balance of the unit and the individual quality makes this a massive mountain to climb. We expect them to control the game throughout and create ample chances for the forwards or themselves to get on the scoresheet.

Left Flanked Punch
  • The flank of Stoichkocv and Carlos will be a massively difficult combination to stop, with Hristo's constant movement, darting inside as well as running the channels and shooting and Carlos ability to overlap and provide some incredible service for the forwards.
  • Having Djalma tucking in on the other side will help Carlos more freedom in attack, however we expect him to put in the required defensive shift as he usually does.
  • Hristo's off the ball effort will be useful in helping out at the back in case of any danger.
  • Together the two of them will be a road for chance creation either for the forwards or laying it in front of the midfielders coming forward.

Goals From Anywhere!
  • An incredible array of goalscorers across the parks, enabling us to not rely on fewer names to perform and always having enough weapons to break down the opposition.
  • Suarez spearheads the attack with a menacing presence in the box, the ability to twist and turn defenders and score some absolute worldies.
  • Stoichkov coming in from out wide latching onto the passes from the playmakers would be another constant goal threat.
  • And then there is the talismanic goal scorer who dazzled Euro 84 and the 80s Serie A with his scoring exploits in Michel Platini. With the forwards dragging defenders around, Platini will be always in with a chance here.
  • Suarez and Robson contributing from midfield. Robson's darting late runs into the box being picked out by any of the passers or a cross from Carlos, and Suarez with his strong shot from around the box always being a threat.
  • And finally, the set piece threat with Platini and Carlos providing two elite free kick taking option, and well capable of scoring a thunderous free kick.

Feature of the Game
The massive battle in the middle of the game between a prime Robson and prime Matthaus would be an incredible watch, with either players being capable of winning that and providing the differential. Leaving a quote from the awesome write up by @Joga Bonito on this forum as an ode to the quality of these two juggernauts who will be battling it out the whole game.




MSTQ
We will be playing a 2-3-2-3 formation more commolnly known as a WW in order to have more numbers centrally to deal with what we anticipate being our opponents narrow approach while keeping our strength on the flanks. While more known as an old formation, journalist and author Jonathan Wilson who wrote about the history of tactics in his 2008 book "Inverting the Pyramid: The History of Football Tactics" argues in a 2010 article that the formation has experienced a resurgence being used both by Mexico and Pep Guardiola's Barcelona (link: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2010/oct/26/the-question-barcelona-reinventing-w-w). According to Wilson some of the benefits of this formation is that it has interlocking triangles which offer simpler options for passing and its an easy formation to build out of the back with. One element that both the original WW and the modern version have in common is that on the flanks one player stays wide while the other player cuts inside into more central area's (In the original the wingbacks were inverted while the wingers stayed wide while in the more recent version the wingbacks stayed wide while the wingers cut inside). Our team will be using a combination of these two approaches. On the lefthand side Breitner will be cutting inside while Gento will stay wide. On the right hand side however, Zanetti and Figo will alternate which of them will cut inside and which of them will stay wide. Breitner and Zanetti's experience as both fullbacks and midfielders will enable them to fulfill their roles while Figo was known to be able to both stay wide and cut inside. Voronin's experience as both a DM and a CB will enable hin to fulfill his centre half role which in both versions of the WW have elements of both a DM and a CB.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Right, starting off with the obvious.

Clear design flaw there on the right flank. Djalma should not be starting there. Loading up the midfield is all fine but if you don't have width providers to spread play, it will only make defending so much more easy for the opponents.

I think it takes a lot of sheen away from the team as its a big flaw which will impact functionality.

Don't need to emphasize this much on a United forum. We hadnt had a functional right side for 6 years and have seen the impact one non functional flank (right side in our case too) can have on the attack.

Then there is a tactical flaw as well.

Having Djalma tucking in on the other side will help Carlos more freedom in attack, however we expect him to put in the required defensive shift as he usually does.
With someone like Gento in there who will play at the touchline and has tremendous pace to burn, Djalma can't afford to tuck in. Gento will just run riot if he does.

They of course have already faced before in the 1962 WC and Djalma did struggle to keep up with Gento.

 

harms

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I thought that MSTQ were the clear favourites but I love @Moby's side. Not that I can vote here anyway.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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but I love @Moby's side.
I didn't think @Jim Beam 's draft winning Carre Magique midfield could be matched, but this one does come really close (still like Jim's more as I was biased all of that draft).

Amazing how its brilliancy moves up a few notches, just with the addition of Redondo ;)

I'll shut up now :nervous:
 
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GodShaveTheQueen

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I don't have a big problem with Djalma at RB as I'd have thought Djalma + Carlos would sort of work similar to Amoros + Bossis in theory.
I think Bossis was more balanced and offered a lot more going forward. Amoros of course was better from an attacking point of view, but it wasn't like Bossis didn't venture forward.

The Carre Magique in essence is still a diamond, albeit an asymmetrical one. The basic principle of fullbacks providing width in a diamond on both sides still applies to it as well IMO.

 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Not a fan of both teams.

GSTQ - Don't really like the Breitner-Matthaus flank. Breitner free role would have to be discipled abit and that takes some shine away, but that is a lesser problem. I'd expect someone more influential in final third than Matthaus there. Even his Inter persona is not a good fit there.

Moby - Lot's of ball players, but no balance there. The dynamics are all over the place for a Carre Magic or a Brazilian 4-2-2-2. I'd swap Platini and Suarez as Suarez has actually played as an IL before. The lack of Fernandez/Bedin is quite telling.

Love the offbeat formations though!
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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GSTQ - Don't really like the Breitner-Matthaus flank. Breitner free role would have to be discipled abit and that takes some shine away, but that is a lesser problem
Without a RWB or right winger there, I think it gets very easy for him. If he had someone like Cafu to deal with instead of Djalma, sure, he'd have to be way more disciplined as you say.

Breitner's is definitely a tactically important role here. We had a choice between Nilton and Breitner in the free round and went for Breitner simply because we thought he is the best GOAT suited for the half back role on the left side. (Yes, the team was made with the idea of playing WW in at least 1 round)

I'd expect someone more influential in final third than Matthaus there. Even his Inter persona is not a good fit there.
I don't think there is a lack of influence in the final third with so many creators already there and Riva/Gullit taking up the scoring.

I mean, would anyone really complain if this was our front 4?

-----------------Riva-----------------
Gento-------Gullit---------Figo

While remaking a WW/WM, balance is very important. Can't really put a Laudrup there for example. The Carre Magique will simply over run them if you don't have someone like Matthaus there doing the job in both directions.
 

Gio

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Love the choice of strikers in Moby's 4-2-2-2. Carlos is a cracking full-back for that formation too.

Hard to look past the sheer quality in MSTQ's team. While it won't get particularly exposed here, my only quibble concerns Breitner's role. While he is a good fit in having played both LB and CM, this system demands quite exacting athletic qualities that I'm not sold he possesses. Especially compared to some lesser but more conventional wide players who are well versed in being defensively responsible for large spaces.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Love the choice of strikers in Moby's 4-2-2-2. Carlos is a cracking full-back for that formation too.

Hard to look past the sheer quality in MSTQ's team. While it won't get particularly exposed here, my only quibble concerns Breitner's role. While he is a good fit in having played both LB and CM, this system demands quite exacting athletic qualities that I'm not sold he possesses. Especially compared to some lesser but more conventional wide players who are well versed in being defensively responsible for large spaces.
Sounds like you'd rate Nilton higher there?

Thought he'd work well too but didn't know how the audience would treat his midfield traits.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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While remaking a WW/WM, balance is very important. Can't really put a Laudrup there for example. The Carre Magique will simply over run them if you don't have someone like Matthaus there doing the job in both directions.
Honestly, I think Laudrup is a far far better fit than Matthaus. You had Kopa and Puskas for the Real Madrid side. Kopa as the traditional #10 pulling strings and Puskas in AM/SS hybrid role. Gullit can play Puskas role here, but Matthaus can't do a Kopa. With a compact back 3 and 2 halfbacks, you don't really need Matthaus in a LIF role.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Honestly, I think Laudrup is a far far better fit than Matthaus. You had Kopa and Puskas for the Real Madrid side. Kopa as the traditional #10 pulling strings and Puskas in AM/SS hybrid role. Gullit can play Puskas role here, but Matthaus can't do a Kopa. With a compact back 3 and 2 halfbacks, you don't really need Matthaus in a LIF role.
I know what you mean and in a traditional WM vs WM game or WW vs WW, the way you say is the right way to go.

But in a older vs modern formation draft game, its very difficult to keep the pre war attacking purity intact and still have enough balance to not look like the team would leak goals for fun.

I would still slightly disagree on the Matthaus bit though. I did a fair bit of research on his role here and watched a lot of his Inter clips and thought he would do really well.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Will try to join the discussion again tomorrow.

In the meanwhile, here's a quiz question. In our formation picture, which national team's jersey is that?

Winner gets 65 mn in draft money.
 

Synco

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Hm, if Michael/GSTQ would have gone for the 4-4-2 of last round with added Buffon, they'd have my vote in an instant. Pretty much a perfect team. I'm not sure they needed to be reactive to Moby's formation that much. Their CM has massive overall presence, and from what I've seen, Gullit can be expected to be everywhere, even when officially a forward on the team sheet. Riva defending from the front. I'd have little worries about holes in the middle.

I also feel that Moby's midfield may have one playmaker too many, but that's perhaps my lack of knowledge about the Carré Magique.

As it is, I'm still undecided. I'm sceptical about WW and WM formations in general, mainly for their lack of natural width at the back. Carlos/Stoichkov are just the duo to exploit that. The OP addresses the issue of width, but I'm not entirely sold (it also seems to be more about possession phases, if I get it right). In a modern context, I can imagine WW and WM formations best for super-dominant possession sides (-> @Šjor Bepo's remark on EAP's team), but I don't think MSTQ have the right players for that.

Just questions however, and I'd let myself convince of both Moby's midfield and MSTQ's formation.

my only quibble concerns Breitner's role. While he is a good fit in having played both LB and CM, this system demands quite exacting athletic qualities that I'm not sold he possesses.
What I remember from watching pre-1975 Breitner is him being a tireless runner and tackler, often on man-marking duty, popping up everywhere in offense and defense. Kind of a defensive Gullit in that regard. That was my only concern in the last game, the question how such a (wrong-footed) free spirit FB would fare in a zonal defense. But I think he's a great fit for the role envisioned here.
 

harms

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While I don't think that you need someone more influential in the attacking third than Matthäus there, I have to ask if Breitner becomes a bit redundant here with Matthäus right in front of him. If you have a player that goes out wide/forward there, Breitner fits seamlessly, but Matthäus does what Breitner does when he moves to midfield.
 

harms

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Honestly, I think Laudrup is a far far better fit than Matthaus. You had Kopa and Puskas for the Real Madrid side. Kopa as the traditional #10 pulling strings and Puskas in AM/SS hybrid role.
Which Real Madrid side do you mean by the way? Puskas & Kopa hardly played together, Kopa mostly played out wide for them, Puskas was Madrid's furtherest forward and Kopa was not a traditional #10. Otherwise you're pretty much spot on.
 

harms

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In a modern context, I can imagine WW and WM formations best for super-dominant possession sides (-> @Šjor Bepo's remark on EAP's team), but I don't think MSTQ have the right players for that.
That's a good point. MSTQ have a personnel for a traditional WW & Pep's modern version is based on dominating the possession, and it's not very likely that Moby's team will allow them to do that.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Hm, if Michael/GSTQ would have gone for the 4-4-2 of last round with added Buffon, they'd have my vote in an instant. Pretty much a perfect team. I'm not sure they needed to be reactive to Moby's formation that much. Their CM has massive overall presence, and from what I've seen, Gullit can be expected to be everywhere, even when officially a forward on the team sheet. Riva defending from the front. I'd have little worries about holes in the middle.
To be fair, it wasn't a case of being reactive to Moby's team.

We had wanted to play the WW in at least one round right from half way through the drafting since we had a lot of fits right in our opinion. Would have been a shame if we didn't get to showcase it even once.

Moby's team was the safest option to play it against, hence the 4-4-2 got sidelined.
 

Synco

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To be fair, it wasn't a case of being reactive to Moby's team.

We had wanted to play the WW in at least one round right from half way through the drafting since we had a lot of fits rights in our opinion. Would have been a shame if we didn't get to showcase it even once.

Moby's team was the safest option to play it against, hence the 4-4-2 got sidelined.
Ah, I see. Came across that way at the beginning of the OP for me.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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While I don't think that you need someone more influential in the attacking third than Matthäus there, I have to ask if Breitner becomes a bit redundant here with Matthäus right in front of him. If you have a player that goes out wide/forward there, Breitner fits seamlessly, but Matthäus does what Breitner does when he moves to midfield.
Breitner is more or less playing a passive role here. Adding numbers to midfield and also making the defense narrow and closed.

We aren't looking to create a lot of play through him actively venturing beyond the half way line. Might sound like he is underutilized but we are okay with that. We have enough fire power up front in all channels and he is a really good tactical fit in the football played in our own half of the pitch.
 

Physiocrat

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Which Real Madrid side do you mean by the way? Puskas & Kopa hardly played together, Kopa mostly played out wide for them, Puskas was Madrid's furtherest forward and Kopa was not a traditional #10. Otherwise you're pretty much spot on.
Wasn't Kopa a traditional 10 in France and for the NT?
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Ah, I see. Came across that way at the beginning of the OP for me.
Yea, that's fair. The write up was made to sell the formation :)

Below is an excerpt from our discussions during drafting when we started considering the WW. Coluna infact was picked for the Matthaus role here. Little sad we didn't get to use that here since we landed Figo later

There is only 1 way Matthaus and Coluna work in this team and that is the original Benfica setup, its beautiful but too risky, lemme show

Gento-------Riva---------Gullit
-----Coluna------Matthaus----
- --Edwards-----Bremner-----
--LCB--------CB-------Zanetti--

I think I prefer not going with the 3-2-2-3.
If the WM doesn't excite you or if we dont find the right fits, there is one more way we can go.
We can go WW. I have never created a WW here.

Nilton and Zanetti are half backs (like Victor Andrade), not fullbacks
It also gives an easy route back to 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1

 

harms

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Wasn't Kopa a traditional 10 in France and for the NT?
We've discussed it just yesterday, actually. More of a young Laudrup, roaming around between an outside and inside right mostly, but he was a very different player to your traditional number 10s. For France and Reims he had more freedom to cut inside, which he did very frequently, but he usually started outwide, where he had more space.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Won't be around till the end of the game, here's one last ode to the tremendous midfield battle on offer here :drool:







 

Physiocrat

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We've discussed it just yesterday, actually. More of a young Laudrup, roaming around between an outside and inside right mostly, but he was a very different player to your traditional number 10s. For France and Reims he had more freedom to cut inside, which he did very frequently, but he usually started outwide, where he had more space.
Interesting . I should watch some more of him with this in mind
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Will try to join the discussion again tomorrow.

In the meanwhile, here's a quiz question. In our formation picture, which national team's jersey is that?

Winner gets 65 mn in draft money.
The WW was a development of the WM created by the Hungarian coach Márton Bukovi who turned the 3–2–5 WM into a 2–3–2–3 by effectively turning the M "upside down"

 

2mufc0

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I wish @Moby was around to make a few posts, in a close game like this it makes the difference in who to vote for.
 

Jim Beam

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I mostly like Moby's midfield, especially the addition of Redondo as such player at the base will pretty much ensure that he will have a lot of possession. As Synco said, WW or WM can be used, but it is mostly used by a side who dominates the ball and the game (Barcelona used both for example). Altogether, I wish Robson has a bit more freedom to do his stuff. Suarez is more or less fine, maybe a more supportive player or a sidekick to Platini would be more for my taste, but not much of an issue there. You could even argue that he adds more quality aside Platini. This way, it is pretty much juggernaut of midfield and not Platini's midfield the way I see it.

Some questions about balance maybe as all 4 midfielders were at their best when each of them was the main man.

Two attackers are nailed though, but I would definitely prefer someone instead of Djalma there. Something that really prevents me from voting for Moby and mostly puts me off.

Not much to say about MSTQ, love that they/GS turn the tactics so much during the draft.

We'll see, atm probably a draw.
 

harms

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I wish @Moby was around to make a few posts, in a close game like this it makes the difference in who to vote for.
This is the silent Moby himself we're talking about. He had won so many games already without making any comment :lol:

Edit: the gap is a bit bigger than I was expecting. But Moby's side wasn't well-suited to exploit the weak points of MSTQ's formation.
 

Moby

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This is the silent Moby himself we're talking about. He had won so many games already without making any comment :lol:

Edit: the gap is a bit bigger than I was expecting. But Moby's side wasn't well-suited to exploit the weak points of MSTQ's formation.
Yep, I banked on going with my team's strengths, but it wasn't a good opponent for me. Good luck to you guys for the final!