Dutch Government Resigns

[Pogue Mahone]

Another one for the 2020/21 list of events that would be HUGE news in any other year but barely causes a raised eyebrow now. Absolutely crazy story.

Thousands of parents were wrongly accused by Dutch authorities of fraudulently claiming child allowance, with many of them forced to pay back large amounts of money and ending up in financial ruin.

The fact that some parents were targeted for investigation by tax officials because they had dual nationality also underscored long-standing criticisms of systemic racism in the Netherlands.

 

[horsechoker]

Ham sandwich stealing cnuts

 

[Crackers]

oh lord - it's one thing for a government to fall apart during an economic crisis, but a national emergency like this?

 

[OleBoiii]

Holy shit, that's disgusting but sadly not surprising. At least the motherfeckers resigned...

Edwin van der Sar for PM!

 

[berbatrick]

polls show that the ruling party will win with an increased majority. seems (at least partly) a strategic decision too.

 

[Stanley Road]

It doesn't make the news because its happened about 10+ times in the last 20 years. Those that like PR voting systems, this is what can happen. The decision to dissolve was the right one. The alternative was worse in the current climate.

 

[Cheimoon]

It doesn't make the news because its happened about 10+ times in the last 20 years. Those that like PR voting systems, this is what can happen. The decision to dissolve was the right one. The alternative was worse in the current climate.

Not sure what this has to do with the voting system. Dutch governments are pretty stable, and certainly no less stable than e.g. Canadian ones. In any case, the coalition was completely in agreement here about the need to resign. And the underlying reason isn't coalition-related either; it's bad-faith administration that's been encouraged at first and covered up subsequently.

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

polls show that the ruling party will win with an increased majority. seems (at least partly) a strategic decision too.

Elections are in March anyway. And the VVD don’t have an increased majority in the polls. It’s an absolute disgrace what happened but the justice system and the Tweede Kamer are equally guilty. Basically almost the whole political system failed this parents.

 

[Arruda]

Always seemed like a proper troupe of cnuts.

Very unpopular here, for their finance minister stereotyped southern countries for spending Money on "drinks and women" a few years ago. This year, again, they were quick to ask for an audit to Spain's finances early in the pandemic when Spain said it wouldn't be able to cope with the pandemic without external help. Only for the Dutch themselves to ask Germany for help when their hospitals got full a couple of months of later.

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

Always seemed like a proper troupe of cnuts.

Very unpopular here, for their finance minister stereotyped southern countries for spending Money on "drinks and women" a few years ago. This year, again, they were quick to ask for an audit to Spain's finances early in the pandemic when Spain said it wouldn't be able to cope with the pandemic without external help. Only for the Dutch themselves to ask Germany for help when their hospitals got full a couple of months of later.

Those were stupid comments of course but Dutch politicians also have their own base to satisfy. A base that doesn’t understand The Netherlands must transfer money to the south all the time while the pension age in these countries is lower than here.

I know it’s not that simple and I agree with the support packages but I can understand the sentiment.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Always seemed like a proper troupe of cnuts.

Very unpopular here, for their finance minister stereotyped southern countries for spending Money on "drinks and women" a few years ago. This year, again, they were quick to ask for an audit to Spain's finances early in the pandemic when Spain said it wouldn't be able to cope with the pandemic without external help. Only for the Dutch themselves to ask Germany for help when their hospitals got full a couple of months of later.

We pay a lot of money to the EU in support of less well off countries. Something I'm in big favor of by the way, but being a bit critical on how they spend that is hardly nefarious. We pay a shittonne of tax here and as @Eendracht maakt macht said will probably have to work until we are in our 70s. And we are okay with rhat, but we do want some kind of commitment from our politicians to spend it well.

The drinks and women thing was a cnuty thing to say though.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Should've resigned weeks ago, they fecked over a lot of people with this inquisition of so called benefit cheats and tries to hide responsibility as best they could. Mark Rutte with his innocent cheeky smiling. He's the quintessential wolf in sheeps clothing.

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

Should've resigned weeks ago, they fecked over a lot of people with this inquisition of so called benefit cheats and tries to hide responsibility as best they could. Mark Rutte with his innocent cheeky smiling. He's the quintessential wolf in sheeps clothing.

He truly is, and he will get away with it again. That’s for sure.

 

[Arruda]

The "wine and women" isn't just cnutish, it should be enough for any politician to resign, his own government should have kicked him out at the time. There's this thing called diplomacy. That's not a remotely serious way to approach a problem. Managed to even be sexist with that remark.

As for the "we pay a lot of money", that sounds a lot like how Brexit started. Europe's economy is all intertwined and wealthier countries benefit hugely from it. All 20 largest companies from our stock exchange have headquarters in the Netherlands, and distribute their dividends there, I wonder why that is.

As for working into your 70s, well we too will. Retirement age is rising every year due to demography, we're all converging on that too. Anyway it's a social security thing, and mixing that with the deficit and economic crisis doesn't make sense. It wasn't because of that we needed help, our social security cushion dwindles but still exists.

Strangely Brexit seemed to have culled a lot of anti-EU sentiment in the countries that seemed more likely to follow it. Never heard of it again in regards to Netherlands and Italy.

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

The "wine and women" isn't just cnutish, it should be enough for any politician to resign, his own government should have kicked him out at the time. There's this thing called diplomacy. That's not a remotely serious way to approach a problem. Managed to even be sexist with that remark.

As for the "we pay a lot of money", that sounds a lot like how Brexit started. Europe's economy is all intertwined and wealthier countries benefit hugely from it. All 20 largest companies from our stock exchange have headquarters in the Netherlands, and distribute their dividends there, I wonder why that is.

As for working into your 70s, well we too will. Retirement age is rising every year due to demography, we're all converging on that too. Anyway it's a social security thing, and mixing that with the deficit and economic crisis doesn't make sense. It wasn't because of that we needed help, our social security cushion dwindles but still exists.

Strangely Brexit seemed to have culled a lot of anti-EU sentiment in the countries that seemed more likely to follow it. Never heard of it again in regards to Netherlands and Italy.

The Netherlands have always been one of the most Pro-EU countries in Europe. Only 20% support Nexit and it has been like that for ages. Don’t know why you would think otherwise. Maybe you are prejudiced to the Dutch just like Dijsselbloem to the southern Europeans.

 

[KirkDuyt]

The "wine and women" isn't just cnutish, it should be enough for any politician to resign, his own government should have kicked him out at the time. There's this thing called diplomacy. That's not a remotely serious way to approach a problem. Managed to even be sexist with that remark.

As for the "we pay a lot of money", that sounds a lot like how Brexit started. Europe's economy is all intertwined and wealthier countries benefit hugely from it. All 20 largest companies from our stock exchange have headquarters in the Netherlands, and distribute their dividends there, I wonder why that is.

As for working into your 70s, well we too will. Retirement age is rising every year due to demography, we're all converging on that too. Anyway it's a social security thing, and mixing that with the deficit and economic crisis doesn't make sense. It wasn't because of that we needed help, our social security cushion dwindles but still exists.

Strangely Brexit seemed to have culled a lot of anti-EU sentiment in the countries that seemed more likely to follow it. Never heard of it again in regards to Netherlands and Italy.

Regarding those comments by Jeroen Dijsselbloem, he was simply making an analogy about the fact that he feels that there should be some accountability for someone who receives benefits. He wasn't saying, all Spanish people spend their money on booze and women. It was a dumb analogy and rather tone deaf, but hardly something to sack him over. Fact is, in the end The Netherlands are a big net contributer to the EU and I maintain that we have a right to check whether this money is spend well (The Dutch being cheap is a stereotype for a reason). That it will make us immensely unpopular with the countries receiving the benefits is a given of course. I do agree with you that the timing to insist on this during a pandemic is shite. We should've given the money and done the audit afterwards. Not withhold money up front.

I'm not anti EU at all and neither is The Netherlands as a whole. There is a tiny Nexit movement, but I suppose all countries have one. Our anti EU parties were decimated during the last EU elections and our pro EU party PVDA (which is Dijsselbloem's party ironically) won big(ly).

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

‘The survey by Kantar asked people how they would vote in an in-out referendum and found that Luxembourg (94 per cent), Portugal (92 per cent), Ireland (91 per cent), and the Netherlands (91 per cent) had the highest support for EU membership out of the 28 countries in the bloc.’

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...eland-portugal-eurosceptic-poll-a8888126.html

It’s even lower.

 

[tombombadil]

Lying and screwing over people's lives with no consequences. What else is new? Sigh

 

[Arruda]

The Netherlands have always been one of the most Pro-EU countries in Europe. Only 20% support Nexit and it has been like that for ages. Don’t know why you would think otherwise. Maybe you are prejudiced to the Dutch just like Dijsselbloem to the southern Europeans.

I'm not prejudiced, I hardly know more about the Netherlands than what I posted here, which have been recurring themes. Not the only rich country in EU to have that position.

As for Nexit it was an impression I had from hearing about it a few years ago, glad to know it has little support.

 

[VorZakone]

We pay a lot of money to the EU in support of less well off countries. Something I'm in big favor of by the way, but being a bit critical on how they spend that is hardly nefarious. We pay a shittonne of tax here and as @Eendracht maakt macht said will probably have to work until we are in our 70s. And we are okay with rhat, but we do want some kind of commitment from our politicians to spend it well.

The drinks and women thing was a cnuty thing to say though.

Why the feck would you be OK with that?

 

[VorZakone]

Regarding those comments by Jeroen Dijsselbloem, he was simply making an analogy about the fact that he feels that there should be some accountability for someone who receives benefits. He wasn't saying, all Spanish people spend their money on booze and women. It was a dumb analogy and rather tone deaf, but hardly something to sack him over. Fact is, in the end The Netherlands are a big net contributer to the EU and I maintain that we have a right to check whether this money is spend well (The Dutch being cheap is a stereotype for a reason). That it will make us immensely unpopular with the countries receiving the benefits is a given of course. I do agree with you that the timing to insist on this during a pandemic is shite. We should've given the money and done the audit afterwards. Not withhold money up front.

I'm not anti EU at all and neither is The Netherlands as a whole. There is a tiny Nexit movement, but I suppose all countries have one. Our anti EU parties were decimated during the last EU elections and our pro EU party PVDA (which is Dijsselbloem's party ironically) won big(ly).

I find it odd that you say that. If the Spanish (or others) can't explain well enough how they'll spend it, why should the Dutch provide money?

 

[KirkDuyt]

I find it odd that you say that. If the Spanish (or others) can't explain well enough how they'll spend it, why should the Dutch provide money?

It's not the poor people's fault their government might muck it up sometimes and Im sure most of the money will find te right hands.

As for working into my 70s, our social security net is expensive and requires you to pay taxes. We grow older now than 50 years ago, so why not work a bit longer. I'm happy to have a nice income and have enough left after taxes, so if that contributes to people who arent well off, all the better. Right wingers focus all their energy on the people who cheat the system. I prefer to look at the majority who are genuinely benefitting from it.

It's basically communism, I know!

 

[VorZakone]

It's not the poor people's fault their government might muck it up sometimes and Im sure most of the money will find te right hands.

As for working into my 70s, our social security net is expensive and requires you to pay taxes. We grow older now than 50 years ago, so why not work a bit longer. I'm happy to have a nice income and have enough left after taxes, so if that contributes to people who arent well off, all the better. Right wingers focus all their energy on the people who cheat the system. I prefer to look at the majority who are genuinely benefitting from it.

It's basically communism, I know!

It's not the poor people's fault but also not the Dutch taxpayers' fault. Why should Dutch taxpayers allow so little accountability?

Regarding the other thing: if the system depends on people working into their 70s, then the system is flawed IMO.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's not the poor people's fault but also not the Dutch taxpayers' fault. Why should Dutch taxpayers allow so little accountability?

Regarding the other thing: if the system depends on people working into their 70s, then the system is flawed IMO.

People live much longer, healthier lives now than they did when it was decided that everyone should retire in their early 60s. The maths just doesn’t add up for us to keep doing that. Although “in their 70s” covers a long period of time. I’d be ok with retiring when I turn 70. Not aged 79.

 

[KirkDuyt]

It's not the poor people's fault but also not the Dutch taxpayers' fault. Why should Dutch taxpayers allow so little accountability?

Regarding the other thing: if the system depends on people working into their 70s, then the system is flawed IMO.

I think there should be as much accountability as possible and I also agree that the system is flawed. The EU is a bit of a bureaucratic mess in some aspects. It is however better than the alternative of saying it's every man for himself. Either way, we also pay tax for our own social safety net, not just to the EU and we also benefit greatly from the EU financially.

As for working into your 70s, as Pogue said, people live longer and healthier lives so it's only natural the retirement age goes up.

 

[Stanley Road]

Not sure what this has to do with the voting system. Dutch governments are pretty stable, and certainly no less stable than e.g. Canadian ones. In any case, the coalition was completely in agreement here about the need to resign. And the underlying reason isn't coalition-related either; it's bad-faith administration that's been encouraged at first and covered up subsequently.

This time was different yes. Previously not, my point is that when you have to form a govt from multiple parties to get a majority, it only takes 1 or 2 people to resign and then collapse. Its happened so many times.

 

[Smores]

People live much longer, healthier lives now than they did when it was decided that everyone should retire in their early 60s. The maths just doesn’t add up for us to keep doing that. Although “in their 70s” covers a long period of time. I’d be ok with retiring when I turn 70. Not aged 79.

Not to distract from the central topic but without societal adjustments the math doesn't add up on there being enough jobs for an older workforce either. I've seen many colleges health deteriorate quickly in their early 60s because they can't handle the stressors of the job and they can't go do physical work either. We have a local pizza delivery driver that's 72, honestly breaks my heart everytime.

Anyway on topic my response was just going to be that the Tories would never accept blame like this. It's almost shocking in contrast to see others take responsibility.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Not to distract from the central topic but without societal adjustments the math doesn't add up on there being enough jobs for an older workforce either. I've seen many colleges health deteriorate quickly in their early 60s because they can't handle the stressors of the job and they can't go do physical work either. We have a local pizza delivery driver that's 72, honestly breaks my heart everytime.

Anyway on topic my response was just going to be that the Tories would never accept blame like this. It's almost shocking in contrast to see others take responsibility.

Why?

 

[Arruda]

The Netherlands have always been one of the most Pro-EU countries in Europe. Only 20% support Nexit and it has been like that for ages. Don’t know why you would think otherwise. Maybe you are prejudiced to the Dutch just like Dijsselbloem to the southern Europeans.

Not prejudiced in any way against the Dutch, it's this government in particular that seems to be riddled with cnuts, they have a terrible image in southern europe because of the sort of tirades I mentioned. Having to catter to their own base is no excuse for stereotyping (and sexism) in international diplomacy, let alone in the context of European Union. Otherwise we'd be excusing Trump discourse too. Other rich European countries share the Dutch reserves, none is seen as badly here. That is fault of your own politicians. Dijsselbloem should have been fired there without a second thought.

Judging by the reason that prompted the creation of this thread, they are cnuts to their own people too.

As for the "Nexit" thing it's my impression it was talked about a few years ago, not in concrete terms. It was probably in the context of those European Constitution referendums, and in that case it was my own confusion. I'm glad it's not an idea that had wide support. Politicising ideas such as "we pay too much" is a great way to build up that sentiment though

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

Not prejudiced in any way against the Dutch, it's this government in particular that seems to be riddled with cnuts, they have a terrible image in southern europe because of the sort of tirades I mentioned. Having to catter to their own base is no excuse for stereotyping (and sexism) in international diplomacy, let alone in the context of European Union. Otherwise we'd be excusing Trump discourse too. Other rich European countries share the Dutch reserves, none is seen as badly here. That is fault of your own politicians. Dijsselbloem should have been fired there without a second thought.

Judging by the reason that prompted the creation of this thread, they are cnuts to their own people too.

As for the "Nexit" thing it's my impression it was talked about a few years ago, not in concrete terms. Might be wrong, and I'm glad it's not an idea that had wide support. Politicising ideas such as "we pay too much" is a great way to build up that sentiment though

Not neccesarily agree with that. You can argue we pay too much and still be Pro-EU. It’s not always building up sentiment.

The cnuts as you call them still provide the south with a lot of support and now we even share debt together. So i think you’re a bit harsh.

 

[VorZakone]

Why?

I find it sad too.

 

[Arruda]

Not neccesarily agree with that. You can argue we pay too much and still be Pro-EU. It’s not always building up sentiment.

The cnuts as you call them still provide the south with a lot of support and now we even share debt together. So i think you’re a bit harsh.

I know Netherlands is pro-EU. I just meant that if net contributions to the EU become a major political issue, anti-EU sentiment might grow.

It's part of the game. Can't have your cake and eat it. Forcing the issue is essentially saying poorer countries are not welcome in Europe, because without cohesion funds you bring the whole project back (it's not even that much when compared to similar flows of funds inside countries themselves).

 

[Arruda]

People live much longer, healthier lives now than they did when it was decided that everyone should retire in their early 60s. The maths just doesn’t add up for us to keep doing that. Although “in their 70s” covers a long period of time. I’d be ok with retiring when I turn 70. Not aged 79.

I doubt that's the main driver though. It's demographics that have changed massively and unbalanced social security. At least in Portugal it's very clear.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I find it sad too.

I mean if he's doing it out of necessity and is unhappy about it then sure but is it not presumtive and ageist to assume they're automatically a victim?

Some retired people like to work to earn a bit more to enjoy life more and to keep active. I'm not saying that's definitely the case here and perhaps the poster knows the exact situation.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I doubt that's the main driver though. It's demographics that have changed massively and unbalanced social security. At least in Portugal it's very clear.

What’s happening to Portugal’s demographics? Most European countries have a constantly increasing median age, which causes all sorts of problems for the economy. Increasing retirement age is a crude but effective way to help balance the books.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Not prejudiced in any way against the Dutch, it's this government in particular that seems to be riddled with cnuts, they have a terrible image in southern europe because of the sort of tirades I mentioned. Having to catter to their own base is no excuse for stereotyping (and sexism) in international diplomacy, let alone in the context of European Union. Otherwise we'd be excusing Trump discourse too. Other rich European countries share the Dutch reserves, none is seen as badly here. That is fault of your own politicians. Dijsselbloem should have been fired there without a second thought.

Judging by the reason that prompted the creation of this thread, they are cnuts to their own people too.

As for the "Nexit" thing it's my impression it was talked about a few years ago, not in concrete terms. It was probably in the context of those European Constitution referendums, and in that case it was my own confusion. I'm glad it's not an idea that had wide support. Politicising ideas such as "we pay too much" is a great way to build up that sentiment though

Come on mate, he made a dumb underhanded comment during an interview with a German newspaper. It was a diplomatic blunder, but I think the blowback was a bit over the top.

He did retire from politics soon after by the way after quite a bit of pressure.

 

[Arruda]

What’s happening to Portugal’s demographics? Most European countries have a constantly increasing median age, which causes all sorts of problems for the economy. Increasing retirement age is a crude but effective way to help balance the books.

It's the same here but worse, we have the second oldest population in Europe I think.

What I meant by demographics as main driver is that I think it won't be nearly enough. The years people gain in unproductive life expectancy are far more than they gain in healthy aging. Most 70 year olds I see are not fit for most labours. I guess you'll find some jobs for some of them, but it will always (and quite naturally) be lower productivity, so lower pay, a blow to expectations.

It will have to probably be coupled with severely reduced pensions, and since it's politically not viable to mess with actual or soon to be pensioners, it will be the young footing that bill. People 30 years older than me hit the jackpot. Most retired techers here win more in pension than entry level teachers - and entry level is 10 to 15 years. People with paid houses and raised kids go on cruises, whilst new teachers struggle to even rent a house.

 

[Stanley Road]

Come on mate, he made a dumb underhanded comment during an interview with a German newspaper. It was a diplomatic blunder, but I think the blowback was a bit over the top.

He did retire from politics soon after by the way after quite a bit of pressure.

Dijsselbloem is a turd of the highest order and a blatant liar.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Dijsselbloem is a turd of the highest order and a blatant liar.

Yeah no argument there.

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

I know Netherlands is pro-EU. I just meant that if net contributions to the EU become a major political issue, anti-EU sentiment might grow.

It's part of the game. Can't have your cake and eat it. Forcing the issue is essentially saying poorer countries are not welcome in Europe, because without cohesion funds you bring the whole project back (it's not even that much when compared to similar flows of funds inside countries themselves).

Yes I agree but if you transfer the money it’s not that strange that you want that money to be spended wisely and that for instance Tax Morale is the same as in The Netherlands or measures are taken to get there. It’s hard to explain to Dutch people that their pension is cut to then see it getting spilled elsewhere.

It’s not that simple as transfer the money and shut up.