Both Woodward and Judge deserve more criticism. Two seemingly useless people in their position. Maguire / Bruno are good examples of poor strategy within the market. Both were purchased as a result of the circumstances of the team. We all laughed at Madrid trying to undercut us for Pogba yet we are seemingly doing the same thing with Dortmund. What's worse is that we need to strengthen other areas but have this one person at a time methodology which will potentially slow us down come pre season when Ole is still lacking the necessary individuals.
Ed Woodward | Groundhog Day Edition
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Before I continue to write this, I urge people to read my other posts on ed and the Glazers. There is no way I am their biggest fan but this pandemic has really shown the job the Glazers and ed have done.
In terms of the business side of the club, we have/are really good. I know that majority of fans on social media will slate them on this. However, you have to appreciate that the only reason we are able to compete for the signature of Sancho is because of the club's "noodle" deals. There are other reasons about the business, such as the way the club has dealt with the pandemic.
In terms of Ed and Judge in regards to the signings, you have to go off what a lot of reports are saying that Ed has been taken off of player signings. He now is the middle man as such and Joel Glazer is the main for sign offs. But what the club must do is protect itself and its employees.
In terms of the business side of the club, we have/are really good. I know that majority of fans on social media will slate them on this. However, you have to appreciate that the only reason we are able to compete for the signature of Sancho is because of the club's "noodle" deals. There are other reasons about the business, such as the way the club has dealt with the pandemic.
In terms of Ed and Judge in regards to the signings, you have to go off what a lot of reports are saying that Ed has been taken off of player signings. He now is the middle man as such and Joel Glazer is the main for sign offs. But what the club must do is protect itself and its employees.
Some chief negotiator. Can we start calling him Judge Dread?
Agree with this analysis. Even our recent successes in the transfer market like AWB; Maguire; Bruno involve protracted negotiations that appear to be conducted in the most amateur fashion (opening with a ridiculously low bids, conducting a PR campaign by selective briefings that are painfully obvious; dragging out the negotiations then settling for the full price). The 'one at a time' rule is another indication that our negotiators are in over their heads. People praise Ed for the non-football commercial deals but the truth is Derek Trotter could make millions on noodle deals if he had the United machine behind him. "Two seemingly useless people in their positions" is exactly right.
They get noodle sponsors due to the name. How many noodle deals do the tampa bay buccs get?
I never mentioned the Bucs
Let me caveat this post by saying for large spells of his tenure I do think we have been one of the worst run clubs around when you take into account our resources so I’m definitely no massive fan of the Woody.
However, I have never known a CEO to take the sole blame for transfers not working out in the way he does. Yes, blame him for his lack of a coherent vision/strategy with his managerial choices in the past and his naivety/poorly placed ambition in that first summer thinking that we could click our fingers because we’re Manchester United and sign Fabregas/Bale, but he has backed his managers. Us beating City to Sánchez for example was seen as a big coup and a real show of ambition, yet Woodward then gets all the blame for him being utter turd here. He refused to back Jose when he looked done here and sign yet another CB for 70m so he gets slammed. The following season he goes out and gets said centre back for 80m and he gets slammed again for over paying. Ole has spent 200m since being hired, and there’s a fair chance we’re going to add at least another 100m to that this summer during a worldwide economic catastrophe. That’s a big chunk of money.
On negotiations, the problem is we are never negotiating from a position of strength. Everyone knows we need to improve, everyone knows we have money, ultimately everyone knows we’re desperate for top talent. So it’s exceptionally difficult to then go to clubs such as Dortmund and Leicester/other clubs who don’t need to sell and take their best players away. We just don’t have a very good hand at the table. When you’re at the top you can cherry pick and afford to wait for the great deals to come along, we just don’t have that luxury yet.
I also think he was dealt a pretty crap hand to begin with. A handpicked successor completely out of his depth and an ageing squad filled with overachieving mediocrity and previously world class talent that had been drained of everything they had left to give. RVP, Vidic, Cleverley, Rooney, Rio, Anderson, Welbeck, Rafael, Giggs, Park and Fabio never reached even close to the heights they did under Fergie ever again. And then you add to that the massive void Sir Alex leaving left. Fergie leaving was similar to when someone who has worked in an organisation for 30 years leaves and hasn’t written any guides or told anyone the system passwords. He was a single point of failure for numerous key things including seemingly our entire scouting infrastructure, it was old school and relied on hearing information about a player from the gazillions of contacts he’d developed over the years. There was no infrastructure in place that was adequate for a club our size. We’ve now completely rebuilt that infrastructure, and I don’t think anyone can doubt that we are infinitely better at this especially with the young talent we’re trying to mop up. Do we get them all? No. But the fact we even wanted Upemecano; Cherki, Bellingham, Sancho pre-Dortmund etc tells me we are now on the right track and we do now have a strategy in place. Young, hungry players who are brought into the club early to grow and develop within the culture of the club. I do think he’s learned his lessons and that’s the key for me. We are now on the right track with a solid plan befitting of this club. Finally!
However, I have never known a CEO to take the sole blame for transfers not working out in the way he does. Yes, blame him for his lack of a coherent vision/strategy with his managerial choices in the past and his naivety/poorly placed ambition in that first summer thinking that we could click our fingers because we’re Manchester United and sign Fabregas/Bale, but he has backed his managers. Us beating City to Sánchez for example was seen as a big coup and a real show of ambition, yet Woodward then gets all the blame for him being utter turd here. He refused to back Jose when he looked done here and sign yet another CB for 70m so he gets slammed. The following season he goes out and gets said centre back for 80m and he gets slammed again for over paying. Ole has spent 200m since being hired, and there’s a fair chance we’re going to add at least another 100m to that this summer during a worldwide economic catastrophe. That’s a big chunk of money.
On negotiations, the problem is we are never negotiating from a position of strength. Everyone knows we need to improve, everyone knows we have money, ultimately everyone knows we’re desperate for top talent. So it’s exceptionally difficult to then go to clubs such as Dortmund and Leicester/other clubs who don’t need to sell and take their best players away. We just don’t have a very good hand at the table. When you’re at the top you can cherry pick and afford to wait for the great deals to come along, we just don’t have that luxury yet.
I also think he was dealt a pretty crap hand to begin with. A handpicked successor completely out of his depth and an ageing squad filled with overachieving mediocrity and previously world class talent that had been drained of everything they had left to give. RVP, Vidic, Cleverley, Rooney, Rio, Anderson, Welbeck, Rafael, Giggs, Park and Fabio never reached even close to the heights they did under Fergie ever again. And then you add to that the massive void Sir Alex leaving left. Fergie leaving was similar to when someone who has worked in an organisation for 30 years leaves and hasn’t written any guides or told anyone the system passwords. He was a single point of failure for numerous key things including seemingly our entire scouting infrastructure, it was old school and relied on hearing information about a player from the gazillions of contacts he’d developed over the years. There was no infrastructure in place that was adequate for a club our size. We’ve now completely rebuilt that infrastructure, and I don’t think anyone can doubt that we are infinitely better at this especially with the young talent we’re trying to mop up. Do we get them all? No. But the fact we even wanted Upemecano; Cherki, Bellingham, Sancho pre-Dortmund etc tells me we are now on the right track and we do now have a strategy in place. Young, hungry players who are brought into the club early to grow and develop within the culture of the club. I do think he’s learned his lessons and that’s the key for me. We are now on the right track with a solid plan befitting of this club. Finally!
Agree with this.
Just the comment I'd add is that, Ed has ran the football side of things poorly but the business side of the club. Because of this, we are in with a shout of signing big players, which other clubs aren't...I don't include state/oligarch backed clubs in this.
True (sadly).People need to decide what they want. He was blamed for trying to employ a gung-ho galactico policy when he came in. Now he's trying to scale that down and make sure we get the right signings for adequate pricing and agent fees. In order for this to happen, we have to be prepared to not get certain deals done quickly or done at all. During Fergie's days, this is what happened. We missed out on a lot of signing due to valuation, but ended up having great teams regardless. The policy has changed since Ole arrived, a testament to how influencial the manager's are in United's transfer policys. Since then we've been really well run.
If Dortmund agree to a reasonable deal that takes covid-19 into consideration, then we will make the deal. If they don't, then we will have to move on and sign another player that can fulfill our ambitions for the position. It's that simple.
If Dortmund agree to a reasonable deal that takes covid-19 into consideration, then we will make the deal. If they don't, then we will have to move on and sign another player that can fulfill our ambitions for the position. It's that simple.
More like Judge Rinder.
People want Woodward to be competent and have a football department and structure in place that removes him from decision making and transfer decisions...in addition to a structure that can run completely fine without a first team manager/coach. First team managers are a revolving door, always has been, always will be. Of course there will be exceptions like Fergie, Wenger, etc. But all managers will run their course. When they leave, the course cannot leave with them with the horses, it has to be sustainable without the coach. Players come and go, players are developed regardless of the manager because the manager has to fit with the ideals, philosophy, and character to the club and playing structure, not the other way around.
Currently trying to sign one of the best young talents on the planet in a pandemic. What the hell do people expect? Even without the pandemic it’s going to take time to sort out a deal that will be over a 100 mil.
Its nonsense to think this would be done in like a week. Same goes for Maguire. A high profile CB that cost a record fee. Oh and Bruno. These are high profile signings. Not like popping out and buying Ake or Torres.
If we were shopping at a lower tier then these things could probably be done in 2 weeks but unfortunately we aren’t.
Its nonsense to think this would be done in like a week. Same goes for Maguire. A high profile CB that cost a record fee. Oh and Bruno. These are high profile signings. Not like popping out and buying Ake or Torres.
If we were shopping at a lower tier then these things could probably be done in 2 weeks but unfortunately we aren’t.
it has been talked a million times but we do need a DoF now. Andrea Berta apparently sems a really good fit since he is also an ex banker like Woodward and most mst of his transfer dealings have been swift and profitable. Enough with ad hocism in running the club and transfer dealings.
Why?
Have the Glazers and Woodward done that much, really?
Manchester United the football club and Global brand, would probably have been the same gigantic powerhouse without them, I would guess. Arguably, without the debt.
We were basically positioned in the right place at the right time as the commercial side of football blew up.
For me, it's like giving someone 50 million and giving them credit for making it into 100 million. The means are substantially easier when you've got all you need to succeed already.
Manchester United the football club and Global brand, would probably have been the same gigantic powerhouse without them, I would guess. Arguably, without the debt.
We were basically positioned in the right place at the right time as the commercial side of football blew up.
For me, it's like giving someone 50 million and giving them credit for making it into 100 million. The means are substantially easier when you've got all you need to succeed already.
Their priority is make money from the clubs name, which is where the focus has always been. Letting an accountant run a football club is like putting Roy Keane in charge of noodle sponsors. they wouldnt do that though as it would feck up the money
That's a really nice framing you've got.
Think about the hundreds of millions misspent in wages, fees, managerial sackings. If they had decided on having football people making footballing decisions back in 2013, we'd likely have spent less overall and faired much better.
I think Woody is just the mouthpiece for the Glazers. I dont think he has any say on who we can or cant buy or sell. I think he is told run it past us who the manager wants buying or selling. This happened with Martial when Joel wouldnt let him be sold. Ole has probably more sway than Woody. Ole tells Woody he wants xxx. Woody reports to the Glazers. They analyse it and say yay or nay eventually after analysing the gain of buying or not. Woody then spins to the media we are after xxx and are working on a deal. If its feasible then we end up weeks after usually paying the full amount. If we dont get the full quota the manager wants, Woody, via the Glazers, then gives ridiculous contract extentions out (jones the prime example) to keep the squad looking full.
So we went from "Ole is a Yes Man for Woodward" to "Woodward is a Yes Man for the Glazers"?
Believe you me, I know this. I've wanted Edwin & Mitchell for a while. But sometimes football just doesn't work that way. Ed has made some grave mistakes on the footballing side of things but maybe we have to take a subjective view of things at look at the decisions he made holistically. Can you call Ed a success? No, not really.
But of late, since Ole's taken over, you can see a change. We all believe again. Hopefully it's a sign of getting thing right.
Which clubs objective isn't to make money? You can't run a successful club on losses. Even the oligarchs & state backed clubs.
That is not their priority though. They take less than 20m pounds as dividends from the club (money that goes into their picket). That is less than what they paid Sanchez.
Their priority is for the club value to increase cause they own more than 80% of the stocks. That is billions. So yes, spending money to increase the club’s value is their position. Spending money that decreases the club’s value is bad. The thing that matters to them, is the stock’s value long term, not if we spend 80m or 90m in a player (of course, these are related, spend money wrongly and the stocks don’t go up, spend money rightly, more trophies, more sponsorships, bigger brand, higher stock price).
And as we all know, the Glazers are yes men (and women) for Mike Phelan, the true master.So we went from "Ole is a Yes Man for Woodward" to "Woodward is a Yes Man for the Glazers"?
I dont think Ole is a yes man to Woody, but you are spot on with the other bit!So we went from "Ole is a Yes Man for Woodward" to "Woodward is a Yes Man for the Glazers"?
I've been saying this and get heaps of abuse (what is your secret? ha ha). Agree with this: a club of our size doing one transfer at a time is an utter joke - not to much the ridiculous haggling over Sancho's asking pride. If Woodward had been in charge in 1992, he'd have offered £150,000 for Cantona and screwed that up too
I think he's worried the Arsenal internal investigation might target him...
Their priority is making money, not success. Clubs like Bayern, Madrid, Juve, Barca (and of course even the oil clubs) are run to win trophies
Yeah, on the whole I'd say he's been an unmitigated disaster and the Glazers post SAF. They probably wasted a lot more money than they have increased our revenue stream by. And I also don't think Ole being here makes a DoF position less necessary. For one thing, what happens if and when Ole has hit his ceiling and can't take the team further? I'd like there to be a person with a brain mapping out the future. Not Ole, not the old boys club, but someone top class.
To win trophies, what is needed?
competence?
Sums up the situation really well.
Dint know how long it takes to appoint a proper DOF and good scouting system
What change Mate ?Paying over the odds for decent players ?
Not saying they are bad but Maguire was never a 80M and AWB was never a 50M player.
With proper DOF we could have signed better players with less money
I bet City would now have paid £80m for Maguire.
And revenue. We wouldn't be competing for the likes of Sancho, Maguire etc if we didn't bring in the money.
Also commiting money to the academy
We always over paid for players, even in the Fergie era, nothing new. Like they say, United tax.
But the changes are that the players we have signed since Ole have actually made a positive impact on our team, unlike most of the post Fergie signings.
Big few weeks for Edward. Really needs to show some negotiation acumen.
To quote Cromwell: You have sat too long for any good you have been doing... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!
I wonder did Ed have to ring the Glazers the morning of the Leicester game and explain the financial implications of the game later on in the day or did he save it until Monday morning?
edit it was probably zoom
edit it was probably zoom