Edwin van der Sar on United

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by freeurmind, Oct 9, 2019.

  1. Oct 12, 2019
    #81

    Bobcat Full Member

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    He and gave Sanchez that insane contract and at the same time ran down Herreras contract to the point that when Ole got here it was way to late despite Herrera actually wanted to stay. Thats just the most recent ones and there have been stories from all our recent managers where they have been unhappy about how he conducted/meddled in transfers and contracts.

    Ed knows how to make money, but his usefulness stops there. We can keep him as a financial director, but when it comes to football it is pretty evident we need someone else to handle that side
  2. Oct 12, 2019
    #82

    Mark Pawelek Full Member

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    Ajax's current success isn't due to one person. More due to Overmars than van der Sar.
    Marc Overmars is Ajax's Sporting Director (since July 2012)
    Erik ten Hag - head coach (since December 2017). Before that, Overmars appointed ten Hag to his first managerial job in 2012: manager of Go Ahead Eagles. Later ten Hag coached Bayern's second 11, where he was influenced by Pep Guardiola.

    Maybe United should take all 3: van der Saar as CEO. Overmars as Sporting Director, and Erik ten Hag as head coach. That should sort the mess out.
  3. Oct 12, 2019
    #83

    Mark Pawelek Full Member

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    How Edwin van der Sar went from goalkeeping giant to marketing director.

    A lot of people asked me why I didn’t become a goalkeeping coach but where is the challenge in that?

    There isn’t one, I could do it way too easily. I wanted to stretch myself and learn something entirely new. I could have made lots of money being a club ambassador at United and getting jet legged while endorsing beer but I wanted to aim for something different.”​

    In the pursuit of this fresh challenge, van der Sar did a masters degree in sports and brand management at the Johan Cruyff Institute after retiring from football.
  4. Oct 12, 2019
    #84

    red thru&thru Full Member

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    You're correct, it's not just VdS. But you have to have people in positions that understand the environment. It's very true that good players don't make good managers and visa versa but as a former player or coach, you have contacts in the game. You sound things off from them about your potential recruits.

    All we saying is, you can't have investment bankers running the football side of the club, when they have 0 experience or qualification to do so. If you do, well, we're a case study of what happens!
  5. Oct 12, 2019
    #85

    Zoo Full Member

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  6. Oct 13, 2019
    #86

    MadDogg Full Member

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    The idea is that the vast majority of these decisions wouldn't be going to Woodward at all. Basically the only thing he would have to do with the footballing side of things is setting the overall budget. Otherwise the DoF would have the authority to make all those decisions himself. If an option came along that would go over that budget than the DoF would have to go to him and make a case for doing so, and it would then be Ed's decision whether to agree or not. Obviously if over time the DoF doesn't seem to be working it would then be Ed's role to replace him with another option. But who is more likely to be making the correct decisions for the general footballing team? A specialised DoF who has done the job successfully at other clubs (that is the resume we should be looking for), or an ex-banker who's closest adviser is another ex-banker, who between them have overseen the fall of one of the most powerful clubs in the world?

    It's difficult to know just how involved Ed has been in the footballing side of things since he's taken over, but considering nothing has worked he must be doing something wrong. Whether that is him being heavily involved and making the wrong decisions, or him being only somewhat involved but having the wrong people in the positions who are making the decisions. The managers he is hiring reads exactly like what a random fan would do, not somebody with a plan for the club as a whole. Each one is massively different from the last, with a completely different playstyle and wanting completely different types of players. It's just a mismatch of ideals, and unsurprisingly it's caused chaos at every level of the club.

    You also bring up Pep and Klopp and whether they would have worked here - Klopp has said Ed approached him and that he didn't like what he was told so he said no and waited for a better option to come along. So Klopp himself didn't want to work with our set-up. As for Pep, City bought in a number of people from the Barcelona set-up to get the club ready for Pep to come in. That shows how important they feel the people surrounding the manager are. Whereas we've had Ed and Judge.

    Up until the end of Mourinho, I gave Ed the benefit of the doubt. His decisions up until then could very well have been him trying to maintain the system that we had under Fergie as he felt that was the right thing to do for the club. But Mourinho had to be the last roll of the dice for that. Not moving to a more modern system with a specialised DoF (or a similar position) now is either gross negligence or a showcasing of massive ego. It's blatantly obvious that whatever we have been doing hasn't been working, and it's the definition of insanity to keep doing the same thing.
  7. Oct 13, 2019
    #87

    POF Full Member

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    That's a really interesting read. Thank you.
  8. Oct 13, 2019
    #88

    M Utd Full Member

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    Now I'm not sure if roles have changed since this was made but it gives an insight to the setup at Ajax and the roles.
    Well worth a watch for several reason but the work at Ajax starts about mid way through if you want to see that specifically.

  9. Oct 13, 2019
    #89

    tenpoless Full Member

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    He's the complete opposite of Woodward, started as a successful football man and then learned about marketing and management. I trust him more than Woodward.
  10. Oct 13, 2019
    #90

    fallengt Full Member

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    If giving Ole the permanent job after PSG game wasn't a red flag for you, I don't know what is.
    That was a kneejerk reaction, something you would expect from an average caf poster, not from CEO of a big corp.

    Yea, all big clubs would do the same, giving job for Molde's manager without a proper trial.
    And I'm sure things'll change if you keep burying your head in the sand and ignore all facts.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
  11. Oct 13, 2019
    #91

    devilish Juventus fan who used to support United

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    Our transfer market strategy has been not up to grabs. However, that's not really the main issue here. No club has a 100% success rate on the market. Also bad luck does happen. Smalling, Jones, Bailly, the twins and Wes were meant to lead our defence for a generation. Injuries ruined them. Fletcher became sick, ADM lost his way after his house was burgled, Zaha came to the club too soon, Schneiderlin lost his way......these things do happen.

    So sure we should improve our transfer market strategy but the bigger issue here is to ensure that the club is able to handle a high staff turnover. We can't have a rebuild with just 3 signings, that is frigging crazy and incompetent. Some might underestimate this, thinking that eventually the team will be rebuild. But that's not how football works.

    a- it forces the club to handle contracts to players they aren't good enough simply because we can't replace them in the limited timeframe set by the transfer window. The likes of Mata, Rojo and Jones were given contracts and are now almost impossible to get rid off. That has an impact on our ability of buying the players we need at a later stage. Also, by keeping deadwood for X amount of years, would end up driving their prices down to the ridiculous as no one would want a player who spent the past 3-4 years rotting on United's bench especially if the guy in question is paid high salaries

    b- a squad is a living organism. Players get injured, they may get demotivated or complacent, they may want to leave, they grow old etc. You need to get these players out of the club as quickly as possible before they ruin the squad's morale and they need to be replaced them as quickly as possible to remain competitive

    c- As Arrigo Sacchi used to say CHANGE IS GOOD. It keeps current players on their toes, it keeps high standards while it concurrently bring in an influx of new players who are hungry for success. Its good for players to go out on the pitch knowing that unless they give their all they risk of losing their first team and end up at West Ham in the next few months or so. You can't introduce such mentality when you've got the likes of Jones whose been stealing a living for more then half a decade.
  12. Oct 13, 2019
    #92

    devilish Juventus fan who used to support United

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    I wonder if VDS is the guy we need though

    a- he's got just 1 year experience as CEO
    b- he was never involved in neither transfer market matters nor contracts renewal

    This is what he said

    https://english.ajax.nl/streams/ajax-now/changes-within-the-board.htm

    “In the past few years, I haven’t formally involved myself much, or at all, with the football part of our organization. That will change now and that is in line with my ambition to become Ajax’s CEO. It is good that the Board has presented a solution in which all of the involved parties remain in the club. It’s our aim to ensure, together, that we can put any problems behind us.”
  13. Oct 13, 2019
    #93

    red thru&thru Full Member

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    Someone has still yet to give me a how they can keep defending this board and owners?!
  14. Oct 13, 2019
    #94

    red thru&thru Full Member

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    This is EXACTLY why we need Edwin. We need him to put the correct people in the correct footballing matters. This is the whole point of it all.
  15. Oct 13, 2019
    #95

    mitchmouse Full Member

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    I heard him quoted as saying he wants to be chief exec at United one day... maybe he could start as DoF!
  16. Oct 13, 2019
    #96

    Bloedrood Full Member

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    That article is from 2015. Van der Sar has been CEO since november 2016, so 3 years of experience. And in the 4 years before that he worked as a Marketing Director alongside an experienced CEO, to learn from him so he could eventually take over. But it is indeed Overmars who decides on transfers and contracts and such, especially nowadays that he has proven his worth, Overmars seems to have free rein in that aspect.

    The thing is though, Overmars has a new contract until 2024. Van der Sar will get a new contract until 2023 after it will be approved at the shareholders meeting on November 15th. Short term, for the next few years, they're both committed to Ajax and each other. And unless things turn sour at Ajax I can't see them leaving much sooner.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
  17. Oct 13, 2019
    #97

    devilish Juventus fan who used to support United

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    I didn't noticed that its an old interview my sincere apologies to you and all those who read my post.

    My point though is that we should be careful what we sign. If we're aiming for Woodward's replacement or a joint CEO who caters Football matters then VDS would be great to have. However if we're giving him a symbolic role or we're expecting him to cover Overmars role then the guy will probably be ineffective.
  18. Oct 13, 2019
    #98

    devilish Juventus fan who used to support United

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    He's got zero experience as DOF though. Its like asking Sir Alex to cover the physio role.

    If we bring VDS then we should use him in the same role Ajax used him ie as CEO. United are big enough to have 2 CEOs, one catering the business side (ie Woodward) and the other catering the football side (VDS).
  19. Oct 13, 2019
    #99

    devilish Juventus fan who used to support United

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    Weren't the key roles already filled by the time VDS took the job?
  20. Oct 13, 2019

    Bestietom Full Member

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    Agree, But it would take 2 armies to shift Woodward out.
  21. Oct 13, 2019

    red thru&thru Full Member

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    Not too sure. There's an Ajax guy on here who could tell us. But Edwin knows what it takes to be part of a revival of a club. He has been an integral part of it. He also knows our club. He learnt so much here, like he says in his above interview. He would be a great start for our revival.
  22. Oct 13, 2019

    Catt Ole's at the wheel!

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    True. Liverpool's board were under a lot of criticism until a good while after Klopp was appointed. But then the team starts performing and that disapperars.
  23. Oct 13, 2019

    devilish Juventus fan who used to support United

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    As said I don't know much about what VDS did or didn't do and honestly I hope you're right. However if he didn't kickstart this revival himself and was just a chess piece in the whole game then maybe the task at hand could be overwhelming for him. In that case, I think we're better off with a seasoned football CEO whose been doing this job for a long long time at different clubs. Someone like for example Marotta.
  24. Oct 13, 2019

    Invictus Poster of the Year 2015 & 2018 Staff

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    Yep, it's a bit weird than Van der Sar is repeatedly suggested as a Sporting Director or Director of Football or Technical Director (Football) candidate when most of his education/training pertains to commercial and marketing expertise, and not the actual day-to-day nitty gritty of overseeing the football side of things in liaison with the manager. He could hypothetically do the job he wasn't trained to do, but rationally speaking, if he is to be brought back to the club and deemed experienced enough to handle the scale of the job, it has to be as a replacement for Woodward as the CEO — who's had a fair crack of whip with 6+ years and 3 managerial appointments (excluding Moyes, of course).

    Van der Sar will make mistakes as a developing figure but also bring greater footballing acumen to the table, even as a fledgling CEO, and I doubt a brand like United needs much selling to advertisers (despite what we're let to believe with the narrative that Woodward is an unparalleled commercial whiz who can make deals no one else can and desperately needs to be kept in situ, even though he rode the wave created by the afterglow of the Fergie years). Really like the fact that Edwin is the CEO of a progressive club as well (and will know how important having a unifying vision, that is the thread binding a myriad facets of he club, and the bifurcation of responsibilities with the Manager/Coach, Director of Football, Chief Scout and Academy Chief are in contemporary football). If we aim for a complete revamp with him displacing Woodward, it would be prudent to install the other 4 pillars as well (whether the current ones are good enough is open to subjective assessment)...
    • CEO: Van der Sar
    • Manager/Head Coach: Ideally someone who coaches a progressive brand of football, usual names like Ten Hag or Nagelsmann or Rose or even Favre (who doesn't always produce the best results but has a distinct attacking ideology and excels at developing attacking talent). As opposed to Allegri, who's not the right manager at this moment in time, even though I like him quite a bit.
    • Director of Football: Has to be someone who is installed before the manager and has a big say in the selection, or at least sees eye to eye with him — Overmars is a proven choice with Ten Hag since the Go Ahead Eagles days but Ajax would never let all three of them go at once, would be complete disaster for them. With alternatives like Mitchell (Leipzig), Campos (Lille), Webber (Norwich) or Freund (Salzburg), we have to be sure they interpret football in the same way as the manager, or they'll tear the whole structure apart unless they can amicably resolve differences of opinion.
    • Chief Scout: Again, very important for this person to have the same ideology as the Manager and DoF. Henk Veldmate if we have Van der Sar and Ten Hag would be a smart appointment (especially given his knack for unearthing gems from the South American market), but there are others as well. Right now we have scouts/analysts that were employed under different managers with different backgrounds and ways of assessing player characteristics, which might be creating a dissonance.
    • Academy Chief: Imperative that the youngsters are trained in the manager's style so that you have a singular process at all levels (like at Ajax, particularly since the Velvet Revolution). Can't say for certain if the current organisation is suitable for the aforementioned managers.
    • Might need a 6th pillar side from these: fitness/conditioning figurehead given the litany of injuries our players seem to suffer every year, which cripples the team and thrusts squaddies into the limelight with sustained starting roles. That needs to be managed in a more effective manner.
    Above all, there's a need to create consistency by giving people time, especially after all of the chaos of post-Ferguson era — but that's only feasible/preferable if we find the right formula first. Affording time to, and persisting with, the wrong people in a haphazardly conceived organisation with the hope that they will eventually get it right will serve no purpose, and just delay an actual fundamental level overhaul that we need to fully modernize the club's internal setup.
  25. Oct 13, 2019

    Bloedrood Full Member

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    Cruijff was the one who hired Van der Sar, Overmars, Bergkamp and Jonk to run and revitalise the club basically. It started with a column Cruijff wrote back in 2010, among other things he wrote about the lack of former players involved with the club. This resulted in what was called the velvet revolution, Cruijff after fighting some court battles took charge of the club and put Van der Sar, Overmars, Bergkamp and Jonk in charge. While Cruijff stayed on as an adviser initially, and helped write and oversee the plan for the restructuring of the club, especially the youth academy. A lot has happened since though, both Jonk and Bergkamp have been fired since then. But Cruijff also backed out at some point. Van der Sar and Overmars don't necessarily strictly follow Cruijff's ideas on everything anymore, Jonk was Cruijff's biggest follower in those ideas. Those ideas were, or at least seem to be from the outside, more extreme in the sense of playing youth players and not buying/spending much on transfers. And the more time passes now, the more the club is shaped by Overmars and Van der Sar, they've hired a bunch of new people since. But along the way both Overmars and Van der Sar have definitely made plenty of mistakes. I think it was Van der Sar who said that starting this new career is kind of like being a young player, they still had and have a lot to learn and experience to gain.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
  26. Oct 13, 2019

    devilish Juventus fan who used to support United

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    Look I am not anti VDS. In fact I did suggested him as our football CEO in numerous occasions. My concerns are

    a- we give him a job he's not experienced in. A quick google research suggest that the guy has never covered a DOF role. If we put him as a DOF then its a new job for him.
    b- He tries to implement the Ajax system in here

    B might sound a good idea at first but its not. First of all Ajax is different from Manchester United. The former are basically a sellers club who rely on having a strong core of youths to develop only to then sell them when the time is right and restart the cycle again. United aren't like that. Secondly because their players are exposed to different styles of football and managers, they tend to be quite savvy in terms of tactics and different football approaches. Take that list as an example. VDS had played in Holland, Italy and England same as Bergkamp and Jonk. Overmars didn't play in Italy but he played in Spain instead. If he tries to implement the velvet revolution with people like Gaz and Scholes who had never stepped out of greater Manchester and had only had 1 manager in all their career, then I doubt it will be anywhere near as effective. You only have to hear them on telly to understand how naive and sentimental they are. Gaz in particular seem to be afraid at anything that isn't British.
  27. Oct 13, 2019

    Bloedrood Full Member

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    I'm not really disagreeing with much you say here, I just answered your question. I don't think there's any chance Van der Sar will come to United right now, and if he will in the future I agree the CEO role is the one that makes most sense. From what Van der Sar has said he seems to agree with that, but in his role as CEO of Ajax and Vice chairman of the European Club Association he's not going to be very outspoken or critical of United or the people involved currently, he's not going to push for Woodward's job. That said, I don't know why you'd assume that Van der Sar would push the Ajax model, or a velvet revolution, on United. He'd draw a plan that is best suited to United, I don't think we have to educate Van der Sar of all people to the fact that United and Ajax are very different clubs. Not to mention that what Cruijff did at Ajax, Van der Sar would never be allowed to do at United due to the owners. Cruijff did what he wanted and ousted everyone that opposed him, he basically had free rein because he had the support of the people.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
  28. Oct 13, 2019

    devilish Juventus fan who used to support United

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    I never said you disagreed with me. I simply voiced my concerns. For example I was hoping that being a foreign bargain himself ole would have stayed away from the romantic view our former players has on the so called British core and youths BS. It turned out that in many ways he is more close minded then they are. I am hoping that vds doesn't commit the same mistake especially since these guys had been letting the club down at coaching/managerial/pundit level

    Regarding power if vds is hired as football ceo then I can see the club trusting football decisions to him. Sure woody is the Glazers man so he won't be touched but I can't see the Glazers stopping vds from firing let's say Carrick, Butt or Mckenna. They probably don't even know whom they are
  29. Oct 13, 2019

    Bloedrood Full Member

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    Yeah, the reason I said that is because the velvet revolution entailed more than that. Cruijff ousted people at board level too, business people. He would have told Woodward to sod off. Ajax's Directors, Board of Directors and Supervisory Board were all ousted. Wasn't easy, took some court battles. But he made sure that first team performance, not commerce, took prevalence at all club levels.
  30. Oct 14, 2019

    Ajaxsuarez Full Member

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    don't want to turn this thread too much into an Ajax + Cruijff thread, but I always dislike this characterisation of Cruijff's vision. I completely agree that the club has stepped away from Cruijff's plans quite a bit (substantially more than I would have liked), but that isn't the spending of money in itself.

    Cruijff was always a proponent of spending money on players. As a player he had a big falling out with I think the Barca board about them not putting the capital on the pitch. Cruijff's point however has always been that you never buy for depth. Any purchase needs to be a clear improvement to the starting XI in a way that isn't possible from within. Ajax should always consider the talent pipeline before making even those purchases, but that doesn't mean you don't make them. Signings like Tadic and Blind are completely in line with his own view. A Promes signing is probably less so though.

    Cruijff's plans and written ideas about how Ajax should deal with signing of players outside the club was written from the perspective at the time (around the 09-12 period) in which the club was in massive financial difficulty. So you had a clear policy set with the overhaul of only buying direct added quality and never for more than around €7m, with a fixed salary cap across the whole squad as well. In the summer of 2013, Ajax (Overmars) only had a budget of €5 million. It's thanks to the years of successful financial management that we're now able to move into second gear.
  31. Oct 14, 2019

    JPRouve can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate Scout

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    @Ajaxsuarez I seem to remember about the same story at Barcelona around 2008 and if I'm not mistaken Cruijff was involved in that idea. Basically the idea was to put almost everything on the top 16 players and use exclusively use the academy and Barcelona B for the 9 other players. If I'm not mistaken it's interesting to see it done in what are considered his clubs and both succeeding. For me it's a very smart plan that was mentioned later at the ECA in relation to wage bill management because youth players are initially way cheaper than players coming through transfers which allows to spend more on the top players.
  32. Oct 14, 2019

    Johan07 Full Member

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    Its also what LVG basically tried to do, but it did not work out. You could say that it was because of failed efforts on the transfer market. But a lot of had to do with the club was hit with a lot of injuries in his second season as well.
    So you could also argue that its really difficult to compete for the PL and the CL with 16 top players and the rest youth.
    Shakhtar Donetsk can do it here in the Ukraine because they can put out the canteen manager and his relatives on the pitch for the league games and beat all other teams here except maybe "my" Dynamo. Even if thats not really sure anymore either (sorry for the off topic).
    A PL-season is gruesome, There will be so many injuries and the level of competition and physicality is higher than ever. We see the injuries in our squad already. City might have already lost the league in October for the same reason.
    I dont think you can win the PL with that approach, but thats just my opinion.
  33. Oct 17, 2019

    mitchmouse Full Member

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    I though Edwin has that job at Ajax when he first went back home... maybe I dreamt that up
  34. Oct 17, 2019

    devilish Juventus fan who used to support United

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    Its seems that he was in marketing first and then he became ceo