England fans, what is wrong with England fans?

lsd

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But how do we stop it when the majority is overseas? this raises an issue. We can try to go for those over in UK but what of the majority? In other countries do they care enough to make arrests or send the bobbies around? It will just continue

You can try to control what you can control though. I just feel it would have been better had Southgate followed with the statement Tyrone Mings gave and pointed the finger at the English media and figures like Boris and Patel etc.
 

Stacks

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You can try to control what you can control though. I just feel it would have been better had Southgate followed with the statement Tyrone Mings gave and pointed the finger at the English media and figures like Boris and Patel etc.
he should do both. We need to understand the gravity of the problem of abuse and that it is global. This may pressure social media companies more
 

DutchCruijff

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This is so sad. This deflection that I'm seeing on Twitter as well.

I know of two white English guys personally who overheard xenophobic/racial abuse in the pubs they were sitting in. There's been numerous reports of England players' family members being racially abused, fans hearing racial abuse during the match and stewards being racially abused too.

But apparently "it's not a big problem, it's being exaggerated, the tweets are from Asia"?

I think for most ethnic minorities, we're not too fussed with the social media abuse, sure, it's not nice but it pales in comparison to what people say behind closed doors, or in private group chats, or in pubs or what folk say in the stadium.
 
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Stacks

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This is so sad. This deflection that I'm seeing on Twitter as well.

I know of two white English guys personally who overheard xenophobic/racial abuse in the pubs they were sitting in. There's been numerous reports of England players' family members being racially abused, fans hearing racial abuse during the match and stewards being racially abused too.

But apparently "it's not a big problem, it's being exaggerated, the tweets are from Asia"?

I think for most ethnic minorities, we're not too fussed with the social media abuse, sure, it's not nice but it pales in comparison to what people say behind closed doors, or in private group chats, or in pubs or what folk say in the stadium.
which players families?? :eek:

I agree with you mostly but all I see people talking in the news is the social media stuff and now the conversation is about social media companies, getting ID to open accounts, sending police to peoples houses and tracking IP addresses, basically stuff that won't solve the issue much. basically headlines like

England players were targeted with 12,500 abusive messages during Euro 2020 - from 10,000 social media accounts (MAIL)
Guardian analysis shows scale of abusive messages on Twitter
Boris Johnson accused of hypocrisy for response, while team members themselves react to online attacks


so this is where the focus lies in the discussion because 99.9999999% of racial abuse in England is online by cowards behind keyboards. Its a factual reality.
 

Abraxas

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Ireland fans love a drink but they don’t riot. Definitely agree alcohol makes things worse but there is a mindset among some England fans that not every fan group has to the same level.
Yes, definitely. There is a mindset and a psychology among these types that is hard to grasp and of course this doesn't arise on consuming a pint or two, it would preexist. There seems to be a societal and cultural element and it is this that separates different countries and the extent to which hooliganism is present.

However, alcohol tends to bring about manifestations of these problems in a very stark way, that is my thinking. It's not correct to think that solving the alcohol problem eliminates hooliganism or that they wouldn't do it if they were sober, but I think it is probably fair to say it contributes to degree and likelihood. It's also an easier thing to target in terms of producing an improvement in the short term.

Specific acts associated with hooliganism have been illegal for a long time, that doesn't automatically produce improvement because it is only a method of civilisation so while we can create more elaborate mechanisms of punishment it is not necessarily completely effective. Education takes times. That has to filter through, people do not change quickly ordinarily.

What are the psychological reasons we have large minorities of people that are complete thugs? Again, that's a tough problem. That is not something I am qualified to answer. But I do think the justice system tacitly acknowledges that expediency and financial constraints operate to produce a result and not necessarily confronting the problem at source. That's why we have so many reoffenders. Its why hooliganism has gone on for ages. It's why tackling racism is a real slow burn. It is the people that have to be changed.
 

Ludens the Red

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This is so sad. This deflection that I'm seeing on Twitter as well.

I know of two white English guys personally who overheard xenophobic/racial abuse in the pubs they were sitting in. There's been numerous reports of England players' family members being racially abused, fans hearing racial abuse during the match and stewards being racially abused too.

But apparently "it's not a big problem, it's being exaggerated, the tweets are from Asia"?

I think for most ethnic minorities, we're not too fussed with the social media abuse, sure, it's not nice but it pales in comparison to what people say behind closed doors, or in private group chats, or in pubs or what folk say in the stadium.
Got any sources for this?
 

Dante

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Two of the worst incidents were done by just one cnut:

Idiot drank 20 ciders, snorted coke, put flare up backside then stormed Wembley



An England fan who stuck a flare up his bum and appeared to snort cocaine in front of a cheering crowd refuses to apologise for sneaking into Wembley without a ticket.

Charlie Perry, 25, claims to have drunk 20 cans of cider and ‘banged a load of powder’ during a 15 hour bender on Sunday.

He boasted about making it past security at Wembley for the final against Italy and claims to have given a steward ‘a little backhander’.


link
 

DomesticTadpole

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Two of the worst incidents were done by just one cnut:

Idiot drank 20 ciders, snorted coke, put flare up backside then stormed Wembley



An England fan who stuck a flare up his bum and appeared to snort cocaine in front of a cheering crowd refuses to apologise for sneaking into Wembley without a ticket.

Charlie Perry, 25, claims to have drunk 20 cans of cider and ‘banged a load of powder’ during a 15 hour bender on Sunday.

He boasted about making it past security at Wembley for the final against Italy and claims to have given a steward ‘a little backhander’.


link
Adrian Durham has just slated him and his mates. He basically said, if they sit down next to their mums or grandmothers and feel no shame then they have been badly brought up. That no wonder people hate a section of England fans. That female journalists suffered sexist behaviour from these louts. That people were threatened with stabbing if they didn't let them come through the turnstile with them. Disgusting creatures.

As I said I wished that flare had exploded so we don't have to suffer his kids.
 

André Dominguez

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I saw an article of your police officials deflecting the blame. How can they justify being so easy to enter the stadium, even a youtuber manage to do it without even needing to force his way in?
And how did they not predict being overrun by fans? Poor security plan by the authorities.
 

Reapersoul20

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The issue is intertwined with a serious coke issue from my experience going to games.

12.30 kick off, fans meeting in a family pub, people doing coke openly all over the place. In front of kids. It's a bit fecked.
 

Trequarista10

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The issue is intertwined with a serious coke issue from my experience going to games.

12.30 kick off, fans meeting in a family pub, people doing coke openly all over the place. In front of kids. It's a bit fecked.
Interesting, was this purely in London for England games, or for United games?

I always associate cocaine with London but that may just my own experiences skewing my perception, as I lived in London early and mid 20s and was around people of the same age trying to build their careers, with enough disposable income to buy cocaine as an escape from the stress and pressures of climbing the corporate ladder.
 

VorZakone

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I saw an article of your police officials deflecting the blame. How can they justify being so easy to enter the stadium, even a youtuber manage to do it without even needing to force his way in?
And how did they not predict being overrun by fans? Poor security plan by the authorities.
How did they deflect the blame?
 

Rob

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Had you told me before the Euro’s that England and Italy would meet in the final, I would’ve been sure that I would cheer for England. I ended up celebrating Italy winning and now hope that you don’t get the WC in 2030. Booing national anthems, attacking Danish fans, some of them with their kids, and storming the gates to the final is just too much. And yes, I realise it’s a small minority but still.
 

cyberman

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Had you told me before the Euro’s that England and Italy would meet in the final, I would’ve been sure that I would cheer for England. I ended up celebrating Italy winning and now hope that you don’t get the WC in 2030. Booing national anthems, attacking Danish fans, some of them with their kids, and storming the gates to the final is just too much. And yes, I realise it’s a small minority but still.
Its always a minority in all these types of cases around the world. Its a nonsense excuse.
 

Stacks

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Had you told me before the Euro’s that England and Italy would meet in the final, I would’ve been sure that I would cheer for England. I ended up celebrating Italy winning and now hope that you don’t get the WC in 2030. Booing national anthems, attacking Danish fans, some of them with their kids, and storming the gates to the final is just too much. And yes, I realise it’s a small minority but still.
Did you feel like this after the Russians went wild attacking people during Euro 2016 along with the French down in Marseille or is it specifically targeted at English hoolaganism? I ask because we all had concerns about the world cup in Russia due to this and they got their act together
 

André Dominguez

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Did you feel like this after the Russians went wild attacking people during Euro 2016 along with the French down in Marseille or is it specifically targeted at English hoolaganism? I ask because we all had concerns about the world cup in Russia due to this and they got their act together
Your security couldn't even stop people entering a stadium without tickets. Will they become competent at their jobs in 2030?
 

André Dominguez

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tighten security. increase police presence. get the dogs out. Basically what they do when two troublesome fanbases play. I think they underestimated the situation this time round.
There was a lot of slacking from the authorities, tbh. You just need to see the footage of Leicester or Trafalgar square. But yes, you have time to instill a different mindset in the police forces towards poor behaved fans, and also what seems to be a huge issue here was the "psychological obstacle": those officers were finding difficult to decide about using force in their own city against their own fans, in such an entusiastic moment.
If this was a Premier Legue game those officers would not have blinked about starting to control the situation immediatly.

To be clear, I'm saying using force, not being violent. The riot police has several tactics to control crowds without need to use excessive violence.

Other thing: littering. If you guys do this at a square, I imagine your beaches must be nightmare for the cleaning staff.
 
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I saw an article of your police officials deflecting the blame. How can they justify being so easy to enter the stadium, even a youtuber manage to do it without even needing to force his way in?
And how did they not predict being overrun by fans? Poor security plan by the authorities.
The UK is corrupt, from the top of the governmnet down. There is no accountability for anything, there's always someone else to blame.
 

André Dominguez

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The UK is corrupt, from the top of the governmnet down. There is no accountability for anything, there's always someone else to blame.
Corruption is a global problem, but I'm pretty sure in terms of corruption you guys are still better than my country. But I found quite strange how poor things were planned by authorities on an event of this magnitude. Despite everything, things could had gone pretty much worse, though.

In the end, the worst part was probably the littering of Leicester and Trafalgar Squares.
 

Stacks

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Literally came across this by chance. 2 Canadian comedians whom I watch their channel but didn't know they followed football. fast forward to 9:25 of the vid. Listen carefully to what he says. We would never hear about things like this because....well....Denmark doesn't have the same clout as England.

 

Cascarino

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Literally came across this by chance. 2 Canadian comedians whom I watch their channel but didn't know they followed football. fast forward to 9:25 of the vid. Listen carefully to what he says. We would never hear about things like this because....well....Denmark doesn't have the same clout as England.

Or maybe because there was a lot less incidents of that nature, considering the game took place in England. I don't think it has anything to do with "clout"
 

OutlawGER

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Maybe my memory is failing me, but while it's somewhat common to see like the one group of hooligans acting up during these games, I can't recall every seeing nearly as many incidences as yesterday. I think I saw at least five different brawls around the stadium, several fist fights during public viewing events, a couple of squares in chaos and I didn't even have to dig through the internet to find them.

Was a great day for football to see this massive and deserved meltdown. Football truly came home. :lol:
 

CallyRed

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HEre they are waiting, the brittish fans.
From what i have read about this video, they weren't attacking Italy fans alone, but more so people jibbing into the stadium. You can see a few punches thrown at people wearing England flags.

Not that I am condoning their behaviour/reaction.
 
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golden_blunder

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There was a lot of slacking from the authorities, tbh. You just need to see the footage of Leicester or Trafalgar square. But yes, you have time to instill a different mindset in the police forces towards poor behaved fans, and also what seems to be a huge issue here was the "psychological obstacle": those officers were finding difficult to decide about using force in their own city against their own fans, in such an entusiastic moment.
If this was a Premier Legue game those officers would not have blinked about starting to control the situation immediatly.

To be clear, I'm saying using force, not being violent. The riot police has several tactics to control crowds without need to use excessive violence.

Other thing: littering. If you guys do this at a square, I imagine your beaches must be nightmare for the cleaning staff.
Littering is a huge issue in U.K. and ireland. It’s laziness and it’s disgusting
 

MU655

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Your security couldn't even stop people entering a stadium without tickets. Will they become competent at their jobs in 2030?
Police weren't inside the stadiums. After this, the FA will probably pay for Police to be used inside the stadiums. The Government might even enforce it for a World Cup.

The FA decided to go with private security companies, which clearly can't handle it.
 

FizzyWomack

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absolute disgrace and an embarrassment to our country. not sure the context of that video posted earlier but it sure looks like innocent people were getting punched. fecking cowards. anyone remember at the last World Cup with the ultras jumping the stands to attack innocent fans? its obviously not just an English thing, but we definitely have a reputation of getting beer'ed up and violent. its pathetic and childish behaviour
 

el_loco_bielsa

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It’s entirely a socioeconomic/cultural/social class issue.

Broadly speaking in this country, from a very young age children from different social classes are stratified into playing and ergo following different sports.

Football is largely the preserve of the blue collar classes, as evidenced by the fact that it’s the predominant sport in the government-run non fee paying schools.

Step into the fee-paying schools (comprising both private independent day schools and the older traditional boarding ‘public’ schools) and football comes a distant third or fourth in the hierarchy behind rugby and cricket (the two predominant white collar team sports) and often field hockey too.

This type of segregation starts early, and transplants into adulthood. Over 90% of football supporters at a ground will be blue collar, and the reverse applies in cricket and rugby grounds. The behaviour at the grounds then boils down to what is culturally appropriate for those respective groups.

It’s why xenophobia with outright public racism, hooliganism, binge drinking, outright displays of yobbery are ubiquitous at football grounds but would be considered highly unusual at a cricket or rugby ground.

My feeling is that there are central differences between our society and other societies in Europe which are a) less stratified into a class led system and b) where football may not have the same class connotations.
 

Random Task

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It’s entirely a socioeconomic/cultural/social class issue.

Broadly speaking in this country, from a very young age children from different social classes are stratified into playing and ergo following different sports.

Football is largely the preserve of the blue collar classes, as evidenced by the fact that it’s the predominant sport in the government-run non fee paying schools.

Step into the fee-paying schools (comprising both private independent day schools and the older traditional boarding ‘public’ schools) and football comes a distant third or fourth in the hierarchy behind rugby and cricket (the two predominant white collar team sports) and often field hockey too.

This type of segregation starts early, and transplants into adulthood. Over 90% of football supporters at a ground will be blue collar, and the reverse applies in cricket and rugby grounds. The behaviour at the grounds then boils down to what is culturally appropriate for those respective groups.

It’s why xenophobia with outright public racism, hooliganism, binge drinking, outright displays of yobbery are ubiquitous at football grounds but would be considered highly unusual at a cricket or rugby ground.

My feeling is that there are central differences between our society and other societies in Europe which are a) less stratified into a class led system and b) where football may not have the same class connotations.
This is a good post in the main, but to associate xenophobia largely (90%!?) with blue-collar workers is a presumptuous and somewhat ignorant-to-the-facts statement at best. In my experience, xenophobia is visible in all walks of life. Attributing it to one particular class of person is lazy and frankly not true.

Sorry, but I cannot stand social distinction in any form. It's a lazy view and mostly stereotypical.
 

Peter van der Gea

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It’s entirely a socioeconomic/cultural/social class issue.

Broadly speaking in this country, from a very young age children from different social classes are stratified into playing and ergo following different sports.

Football is largely the preserve of the blue collar classes, as evidenced by the fact that it’s the predominant sport in the government-run non fee paying schools.

Step into the fee-paying schools (comprising both private independent day schools and the older traditional boarding ‘public’ schools) and football comes a distant third or fourth in the hierarchy behind rugby and cricket (the two predominant white collar team sports) and often field hockey too.

This type of segregation starts early, and transplants into adulthood. Over 90% of football supporters at a ground will be blue collar, and the reverse applies in cricket and rugby grounds. The behaviour at the grounds then boils down to what is culturally appropriate for those respective groups.

It’s why xenophobia with outright public racism, hooliganism, binge drinking, outright displays of yobbery are ubiquitous at football grounds but would be considered highly unusual at a cricket or rugby ground.

My feeling is that there are central differences between our society and other societies in Europe which are a) less stratified into a class led system and b) where football may not have the same class connotations.
I went to a uni with a really high proportion of public school kids and the above is true from what I could see.

The hockey and rugby lads drank as much as the footy lads, in the same venues. There was "laddish" behaviour by all the men's teams (and most of the ladies teams) but nearly all of the "loutish" behaviour was by the footy lads.

Almost entirely, the hockey and rugby lads were public school (apart from the few comp kids like me) and the footy lads were nearly all comp kids (except for the few public school kids who always seemed to be there when there was trouble).

In that microcosm, the class divide was really obvious. I also find it interesting that the only public school kids who played football were the ones who were also trouble makers.
 

Peter van der Gea

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This is a good post in the main, but to associate xenophobia largely (90%!?) with blue-collar workers is a presumptuous and somewhat ignorant-to-the-facts statement at best. In my experience, xenophobia is visible in all walks of life. Attributing it to one particular class of person is lazy and frankly not true.

Sorry, but I cannot stand social distinction in any form. It's a lazy view and mostly stereotypical.
Oh, white collar folk are racist as feck, they just express it differently
 

el_loco_bielsa

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This is a good post in the main, but to associate xenophobia largely (90%!?) with blue-collar workers is a presumptuous and somewhat ignorant-to-the-facts statement at best. In my experience, xenophobia is visible in all walks of life. Attributing it to one particular class of person is lazy and frankly not true.

Sorry, but I cannot stand social distinction in any form. It's a lazy view and mostly stereotypical.
Whether or not you can ‘stand’ social distinctions within society, the fact remains that they not only exist but are central to any discussion of our England football hooliganism problem, our societal mores, our politics, our general discourse, the way this country votes and behaves, our increasing propensity towards conservative attitudes and a fear of both foreigners and globalism as exemplified by brexit and driven by the 50% of the population who both lack a university degree and feel empowered to display those toxic attitudes in public.

Yes, xenophobia and boorishness exists within all walks of society. It’s just considered to be more socially acceptable to display it overtly at a football ground than in a cricket ground.
 

noodlehair

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The problem here is people are rolling two seperate issues into one. England "fans" (which I'll get to my rant about)...and racism.

Racism is not a football problem. It is a societal problem. It's really annoying seeing people trying to boil it down to football fans being racist. Most football fans are not racist. Football actually does a lot more to challenge and combat racism than almost any other sport, profession, or industry in the country. Its the only sport and one of the only careers where a working class kid from an ethnic minority, can have 1exactly the same chance and opportunity as a white kid from a privelidged background. The reason no black English tennis players get racially abused for example, is because you're still not really allowed to be a black English tennis player. Football one of the only industries where black men and women are idolised and seen as role models by society as a whole. It empowers people like Rashford and Sterling to actually speak out on issues and force change through the support football affords them from the general public and society. None of this would be remotely possible if football fans were racist. Football fans are a reflection on society. If you put 50,000 people together, you will get the odd racist. If you put 5,000,000 people together as happens with England games, there will be thousands of "the odd racist"...you only eliminate the problem by tackling it as a societal issue. Not by being a snobbish out of touch prune/lefty warrior who thinks all the racists go to the football games to be racist. The only reason it draws the racists in is because football in this country dares as an industry to be vocal and loud about racial issues. So every racists sees it as a target...other idiots who just want someone to feel as angry as they do about a penalty shootout use racism as a weapon. As long as society has racism it will seep into everything, including football.

The second issue...England fans...so I've been to games at a few tournaments with England now, and obviously live in England, and the conclusion I've drawn is again that there is a BIT of a misconception. When I have been to games abroad, England fans have generally been good natured...drunk and annoying maybe but not really any worse than other sets of fans...the problem is actually more evident here in England...and again its more a societal problem I think. England games during a tournament become the excuse for morons to get drunk, do their lines, and be aggressive about something...and again, instead of 50,000 in a ground, its millions of them, everywhere. Like 20 typical Saturday nights in London all happening at the same time. Or everyone going on their lads holiday abroad at exactly the same time, to exactly the same place. We have a real problem in this country of drinking and going out culture where it seems to be about getting as wrecked as possible, and then becoming an uber confident annoying prick...and it transfers over to England games because they obviously draw a lot of attention. I noticed it in the ground against Germany...that was the first time I've been to an England game and thought "actually, there's a lot of annoying cnuts around"...and it was still a minority, but you know the type of groups of blokes who you encounter on a night out, who you know will kick off if you just stare at them the wrong way or don't find something insulting they say funny. I'm sure you get these types of people in other countries, but I associate it as being an English trait because of how fecking common it is here. I don't think there's this problem of dedicated England fans going round looking for fights or trouble...this is different to the 80s...England fans go to England games to support England...but there is this problem of English people having this culture of getting drunk and being a complete bellend, and when you throw the drama of football into it, then you give all of them their excuse to kick off.
 

Pickle85

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The problem here is people are rolling two seperate issues into one. England "fans" (which I'll get to my rant about)...and racism.

Racism is not a football problem. It is a societal problem. It's really annoying seeing people trying to boil it down to football fans being racist. Most football fans are not racist. Football actually does a lot more to challenge and combat racism than almost any other sport, profession, or industry in the country. Its the only sport and one of the only careers where a working class kid from an ethnic minority, can have 1exactly the same chance and opportunity as a white kid from a privelidged background. The reason no black English tennis players get racially abused for example, is because you're still not really allowed to be a black English tennis player. Football one of the only industries where black men and women are idolised and seen as role models by society as a whole. It empowers people like Rashford and Sterling to actually speak out on issues and force change through the support football affords them from the general public and society. None of this would be remotely possible if football fans were racist. Football fans are a reflection on society. If you put 50,000 people together, you will get the odd racist. If you put 5,000,000 people together as happens with England games, there will be thousands of "the odd racist"...you only eliminate the problem by tackling it as a societal issue. Not by being a snobbish out of touch prune/lefty warrior who thinks all the racists go to the football games to be racist. The only reason it draws the racists in is because football in this country dares as an industry to be vocal and loud about racial issues. So every racists sees it as a target...other idiots who just want someone to feel as angry as they do about a penalty shootout use racism as a weapon. As long as society has racism it will seep into everything, including football.

The second issue...England fans...so I've been to games at a few tournaments with England now, and obviously live in England, and the conclusion I've drawn is again that there is a BIT of a misconception. When I have been to games abroad, England fans have generally been good natured...drunk and annoying maybe but not really any worse than other sets of fans...the problem is actually more evident here in England...and again its more a societal problem I think. England games during a tournament become the excuse for morons to get drunk, do their lines, and be aggressive about something...and again, instead of 50,000 in a ground, its millions of them, everywhere. Like 20 typical Saturday nights in London all happening at the same time. Or everyone going on their lads holiday abroad at exactly the same time, to exactly the same place. We have a real problem in this country of drinking and going out culture where it seems to be about getting as wrecked as possible, and then becoming an uber confident annoying prick...and it transfers over to England games because they obviously draw a lot of attention. I noticed it in the ground against Germany...that was the first time I've been to an England game and thought "actually, there's a lot of annoying cnuts around"...and it was still a minority, but you know the type of groups of blokes who you encounter on a night out, who you know will kick off if you just stare at them the wrong way or don't find something insulting they say funny. I'm sure you get these types of people in other countries, but I associate it as being an English trait because of how fecking common it is here. I don't think there's this problem of dedicated England fans going round looking for fights or trouble...this is different to the 80s...England fans go to England games to support England...but there is this problem of English people having this culture of getting drunk and being a complete bellend, and when you throw the drama of football into it, then you give all of them their excuse to kick off.
I agree entirely with the second part and mostly with the first, though I'd tweak it slightly. Football is, to many people, about fandom and tribalism. It can give the disenfranchised a sense of belonging and identity and I think that many of the people that need this are people that feel dispossessed, whether socially or economically. This obviously isn't every football fan or even a majority but given football's white working class roots and the tendency for loyalties and prejudices to be passed down generations I don't think it's a stretch to say that there are probably a larger proportion of racist footy fans than if you took a random sampling of the rest of the population. That's not to say that racism has anything to do with class but broadly I'd say that in my experience the middle and upper classes are less upfront and willing to express those views so openly. I also think that football is one of those things that stirs up extreme emotions in people and sadly the race thing is, for a certain subset of our society, the default 'go to' to insult someone.
 

Classical Mechanic

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you're still not really allowed to be a black English tennis player.
What is this? The 2nd ranked British female player is black! The new darling of British womens tennis is Chinese/Romanian. The number one ranked British female player parents are Hungarian. They do all come from affluent families though which makes it a more white sport on average.

The Wimbledon crowd wouldn't abuse a black player at least. Have any of the black players from other countries ever been racially abused by the crowd?

It's a totally different atmosphere to football. The crowd actually support foreign players. Federer is the darling of the place and players like Becker and Williams are well loved too.
 

Peter van der Gea

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What is this? The 2nd ranked British female player is black! The new darling of British womens tennis is Chinese/Romanian. The number one ranked British female player parents are Hungarian. They do all come from affluent families though which makes it a more white sport on average.

The Wimbledon crowd wouldn't abuse a black player at least. Have any of the black players from other countries ever been racially abused by the crowd?

It's a totally different atmosphere to football. The crowd actually support foreign players. Federer is the darling of the place and players like Becker and Williams are well loved too.
I was talking about this with my wife the other day. It's funny how tennis, for which, basically, you need two bits of wood/rackets, a ball, a piece of string/net and some grass to play on, has such high financial barriers to entry.

You get street football, street cricket, loads of games/sports, but never tennis. It's weird.
 

Ali Dia

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I was talking about this with my wife the other day. It's funny how tennis, for which, basically, you need two bits of wood/rackets, a ball, a piece of string/net and some grass to play on, has such high financial barriers to entry.

You get street football, street cricket, loads of games/sports, but never tennis. It's weird.
Is it because the best coaches cost a bomb?
 

noodlehair

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I agree entirely with the second part and mostly with the first, though I'd tweak it slightly. Football is, to many people, about fandom and tribalism. It can give the disenfranchised a sense of belonging and identity and I think that many of the people that need this are people that feel dispossessed, whether socially or economically. This obviously isn't every football fan or even a majority but given football's white working class roots and the tendency for loyalties and prejudices to be passed down generations I don't think it's a stretch to say that there are probably a larger proportion of racist footy fans than if you took a random sampling of the rest of the population. That's not to say that racism has anything to do with class but broadly I'd say that in my experience the middle and upper classes are less upfront and willing to express those views so openly. I also think that football is one of those things that stirs up extreme emotions in people and sadly the race thing is, for a certain subset of our society, the default 'go to' to insult someone.
See I don't think that is really true, although can see your point and reasoning (if that makes sense). I think you can look at examples like Rashford, Sterling, Pogba, etc...the most idolised football players these days are predominalty black...or certainly a more than fair proportion of them are. When I say football fans though, I'm not just referring to the ones who go to the games. Football fans these days are global and a bit different to even 10 years ago. There's definitely an element of tribalism and, frankly, idiocy, among the core supporter base of each team. It rears its ugly head whenever there's a derby game. Generally though even from that perspective, if I went to a football game and heard someone chanting something racist or making racist gestures, I'd be shocked...more shocked than I would be if I saw it in most other settings. For example its a daily occurence in the local high street, and there's generally a lot less than 50,000 people mingling around there.

The middle and upper classes is full of racists tbh...its where a great proportion of the Daily Mail reader base comes from...they're not partricularly discrete about it either in my experience. Just that instead of ranting on a bus about polish people stealing our benefits, they'll be in the local in their village of only white people talking about how they "don't like that black Manchester United lad" because he dares to represent people less well off than them. Racism comes from ignorance and a lot of these people are ignorant that there even are people less priveliged than them, never mind what colour skin they might have.

Your last point I definitely agree with. Its a stick to beat someone with because they know it will get a reaction...and again I think that comes partly from the fact football and footballers are now very vocal against racism in this country. So obviously the default attack for an idiot is to use racism.
 
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