England fans, what is wrong with England fans?

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Farage and Johnson weren’t around in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s when the football hooliganism was far worse than it is today.
Every generation of the far right wing has it's enablers in positions of power, and I was talking about England as a country not football hooliganism.
 

432JuanMata

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Croatia isn't a first world country, is it?

Work on that reading comprehension.
I don’t think so it’s in between 1st and 2nd if I’m correct.
But that first world country thing is a load of bull I’m from Ireland and we are ranked in top 5 in the whole world ahead of likes of UK, USA and other developed countries yet Ireland is not that great at all
 

Wolf1992

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Every generation of the far right wing has it's enablers in positions of power, and I was talking about England as a country not football hooliganism.
England has way more problems who push for hooliganism more than Johnson, Farage or any other guy who you consider a right wing politician.

Alcohol and drugs are very serious issues in UK, which influence hooligan behavior more than any politician.

When visiting England one of the things i felt very weird when attending a reunion or party was the amount of people who confessed to consume cocaine with such ease as if they were talking about smoking a cigarette...very surprising, in a negative way.
 

Wolf1992

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I don’t think so it’s in between 1st and 2nd if I’m correct.
But that first world country thing is a load of bull I’m from Ireland and we are ranked in top 5 in the whole world ahead of likes of UK, USA and other developed countries yet Ireland is not that great at all
The difference between first world countries it's small, wages in countries like Norway,Sweden, or Denmark are higher than in France and Germany, but their taxes are also higher and things are more expensive too, so at the end the real difference it's small, and not as noticeable as the numbers in the HDI ranking suggest.

And yeah, definitely id rate Croatia as good, like Poland,Hungary, and Czechia, wages are not that high, but they pay less taxes and life is cheaper than in first world countries.
 

0le

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England has way more problems who push for hooliganism more than Johnson, Farage or any other guy who you consider a right wing politician.

Alcohol and drugs are very serious issues in UK, which influence hooligan behavior more than any politician.

When visiting England one of the things i felt very weird when attending a reunion or party was the amount of people who confessed to consume cocaine with such ease as if they were talking about smoking a cigarette...very surprising, in a negative way.
Some statistics also back that up:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...ugmisuseinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2020
  • An estimated 1 in 11 adults aged 16 to 59 years had taken a drug in the last year (9.4%; approximately 3.2 million people); this is the same as the year ending March 2019 but an increase from 8.6% in the year ending March 2010.
  • Around one in five adults aged 16 to 24 years had taken a drug in the last year (21%; approximately 1.3 million people); this was similar to the previous year (20.3%).
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...ateddeathsintheunitedkingdom/registeredin2019
  • Since 2001, the alcohol-specific death rate has risen significantly for both men and women in England and in Northern Ireland.
 

Andycoleno9

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Croatia isn't a first world country, is it?

Work on that reading comprehension.
Don't try to be clever now. You clearly said that Croatia, Serbia, Argentina and some other countries are not developed. This was not about which country is 1st, 2nd or 3rd.
That was just ignorant but think what you want. I can't debate with you anymore. Here in Croatia we have only one hour of internet per day so i must use it in a better way. And it is hard to connect with my Nokia 3310.
Next year we will get first smartphones so then i will have more freedom to use internet.
 

Calidad

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English society has some serious problems.

There's a lot of hate and bitterness in England and that fire has been stoked by Johnson, Farage et al. And is now out of control.

Things are going to have to get much worse before England is ready to reflect and change.
I’m sorry, I think you are being disingenuous here.

Are you attributing the behaviour of some English fans to Boris Johnson?

The events seen this summer are not unique, nor are they exclusive to the UK. Earlier in this thread, I was very very critical of the way some England fans behaved; it was embarrassing. There are clear issues, but we’ve seen it before, here and elsewhere.

When you say English society is “out of control” - as a bench mark, what are you comparing it to? USA, Czech Republic, The Seychelles? Afghanistan? Where are you based?
 
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I’m sorry, I think you are being disingenuous here.

Are you attributing the behaviour of some English fans to Boris Johnson?

The events seen this summer are not unique, nor are they exclusive to the UK. Earlier in this thread, I was very very critical of the way some England fans behaved; it was embarrassing. There are clear issues, but we’ve seen it before, here and elsewhere.

When you say English society is “out of control” - as a bench mark, what are you comparing it to? USA, Czech Republic, The Seychelles? Afghanistan? Where are you based?
My point is clear.

Trying to shift the context by implying England's problems might not be bad because other places might be worse is classic whataboutery.
 

do.ob

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Don't try to be clever now. You clearly said that Croatia, Serbia, Argentina and some other countries are not developed. This was not about which country is 1st, 2nd or 3rd.
That was just ignorant but think what you want. I can't debate with you anymore. Here in Croatia we have only one hour of internet per day so i must use it in a better way. And it is hard to connect with my Nokia 3310.
Next year we will get first smartphones so then i will have more freedom to use internet.
Kudos for getting to 16k posts on a Nokia 3310. I have a friend from Crotia who claims to have a smart phone though, is he lying?
 

Dan_F

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Look, the wording was stupid, but the point was there. If you want to see an example of what the poster was talking about you can see the bad blue boys (Dinamo ultras) vs Legia ultras a few days ago. Marching around Zagreb with pipes as weapons?

Obviously it’s smaller scale (club football vs national football) and population size. But posters from Europe, shocked by the English fans, clearly don’t get out to live football much.
 

Andycoleno9

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Kudos for getting to 16k posts on a Nokia 3310. I have a friend from Crotia who claims to have a smart phone though, is he lying?
Only president and PM have them (and they are the only ones who have computers. Commodore 64.).
So yes, he is a liar. I waited two years to get mine Nokia. Waiting time for smartphone is 5 years. I put my request 2017 so next year....fingers crossed.
 

Calidad

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My point is clear.

Trying to shift the context by implying England's problems might not be bad because other places might be worse is classic whataboutery.
It’s not clear, at least not to me. That’s why I asked the question.

When you say English society is out of control, I would have thought that by default, you are drawing a comparison, because if taken in isolation the remark would have no contextual meaning.

So it wasn’t whataboutery (though I appreciate that’s a popular word to throw about currently). I was just simply hoping for a little more context to what you said, so I could understand the point you were, or are, trying to make. I’ll assume that won’t be forthcoming.
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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Farage and Johnson weren’t around in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s when the football hooliganism was far worse than it is today.
They’re part of the reason that things are getting worse, not better though.

Each decade you mention saw progress to the next. Now we’re going backwards again.

I’d also argue that the fringe is worse now than it was then. Not in absolute terms but with regards to how far from the ‘Normal’ centre politic view of the country that fringe is.
 
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It’s not clear, at least not to me. That’s why I asked the question.

When you say English society is out of control, I would have thought that by default, you are drawing a comparison, because if taken in isolation the remark would have no contextual meaning.

So it wasn’t whataboutery (though I appreciate that’s a popular word to throw about currently). I was just simply hoping for a little more context to what you said, so I could understand the point you were, or are, trying to make. I’ll assume that won’t be forthcoming.
I said the levels of hate and bitternes in the country are out of control - fueled by divisive right wing politicians.

You misread my post and keep repeating that society is out of control.

If you want me to engage at least read my post correctly.
 

Calidad

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I said the levels of hate and bitternes in the country are out of control - fueled by divisive right wing politicians.

You misread my post and keep repeating that society is out of control.

If you want me to engage at least read my post correctly.
Ah. Thank you for clarifying. In that case, I don’t think what we see in England, on a societal level, or politically, is all that much different from what we see in any other comparative (Western) nation. Elsewhere, it’s often a great deal worse. It certainly isn’t a uniquely English phenomenon. Things are not ideal, are they ever, anywhere? Yet describing the levels of hate and bitterness in our country as out of control, I feel is overstating things somewhat. But we’ll agree to disagree on that.

Within the confines of football, and it is football, is where I do feel we massively let ourselves down. I don’t like to see the anthems of other international sides booed, or seeing our town squares getting trashed, before or after big games. And reports, albeit very isolated, of fans (like the Danish family) from other nations getting harassed are disgraceful and embarrassing. All of it is scummy behaviour and there is no excuse for it.

Given those recent antics if I were UEFA/FIFA, I wouldn’t be looking at England with any particular fondness at the moment, yet, they’re both money hungry organisations and England is one of a select few countries that has the infrastructure and importantly, can guarantee packed out venues and stadia, ensuring, if nothing else, economic success for any prospective tournament.
 

Acrobat7

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Only president and PM have them (and they are the only ones who have computers. Commodore 64.).
So yes, he is a liar. I waited two years to get mine Nokia. Waiting time for smartphone is 5 years. I put my request 2017 so next year....fingers crossed.
Sending you a virtual glas of Zlahtina from my 1h of internet here in Vrbnik.
 

Steve Bruce

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I said the levels of hate and bitternes in the country are out of control - fueled by divisive right wing politicians.

You misread my post and keep repeating that society is out of control.

If you want me to engage at least read my post correctly.
Yeah we'd be much better with left wing Corbyn. He only supported the IRA, Hamas and other such lovely people and that's even before we get started on his anti semitism.

So lets be clear, Boris Johnson might be a bumbling idiot, but it isn't comparable to the far left Corbyn.
 
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Yeah we'd be much better with left wing Corbyn. He only supported the IRA, Hamas and other such lovely people and that's even before we get started on his anti semitism.

So lets be clear, Boris Johnson might be a bumbling idiot, but it isn't comparable to the far left Corbyn.
You've gone off on a fairly huge tangent there
 

SER19

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Another day at Wembley, another day of English 'fans' embarrassing themselves. This time Ian Wright has called out Leicester fans for anti Irish abuse directed at Keane during the community shield

Again, the weird misplaced anger and aggression football fans seem to bring to games is so ugly to see
 

noodlehair

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Based on my last couple of visits to Wembley I reckon if they actually cracked down on cocaine use in this country, a large proportion of the England fan idiots would magically disappear. Or at least remain sane enough to keep the racism/fight picking in their box of shame.

I could also say exactly the same thing about my last x number of Saturday nights out in London pre-covid. The exact same morons just in different scenarios.
 

Ludens the Red

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Another day at Wembley, another day of English 'fans' embarrassing themselves. This time Ian Wright has called out Leicester fans for anti Irish abuse directed at Keane during the community shield

Again, the weird misplaced anger and aggression football fans seem to bring to games is so ugly to see
You’re clutching here a bit. It’s gonna be Man City fans targeting Keane cos he’s United. You had Spurs fans at the Arsenal game giving Saka a standing ovation.
 

Dan_F

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Meanwhile in Serbia, the Partizan Belgrade game is suspended because their fans were chanting the name of Ratko Mladic. The right and football is connected in most countries unfortunately, and England is no different.

I don’t really think it needs over analysis about the state of society etc, football has long attracted people like this, and if anything England is one of the most sanitised places in Europe to watch football.
 

SER19

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You’re clutching here a bit. It’s gonna be Man City fans targeting Keane cos he’s United. You had Spurs fans at the Arsenal game giving Saka a standing ovation.
apart from wright saying it was Leicester fans and that the abuse was anti irish, sure
 

Cloud7

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Again, the weird misplaced anger and aggression football fans seem to bring to games is so ugly to see
Something about football seems to attract the worst people to it. Granted it's more popular than any other sport, so by virtue of having a larger fanbase you're bound to have a larger proportion of idiots, but even then, look at things like the ultras in places like Italy etc. It's absolutely embarrassing that grown men and women behave that way over people kicking a ball around.
 

TwoSheds

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Yeah we'd be much better with left wing Corbyn. He only supported the IRA, Hamas and other such lovely people and that's even before we get started on his anti semitism.

So lets be clear, Boris Johnson might be a bumbling idiot, but it isn't comparable to the far left Corbyn.
It's exactly this gutter level of public debate that that guy was talking about. The famously pacifist anti-racism campaigner is a violent anti-Semitic terrorist supporter, but the guy who sells billions of pounds worth of arms to Saudi Arabia every year to kill Yemeni civilians is just "a bumbling idiot".

You're not really supposed to support political parties like they're a football team, you're supposed to think about what they're saying and doing and whether you agree with it before you pick a side each time you vote. And if you're worried about being taxed too much it's ok to just admit it rather than regurgitating mindless bollocks about Marxism.
 

lefty_jakobz

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It's exactly this gutter level of public debate that that guy was talking about. The famously pacifist anti-racism campaigner is a violent anti-Semitic terrorist supporter, but the guy who sells billions of pounds worth of arms to Saudi Arabia every year to kill Yemeni civilians is just "a bumbling idiot".

You're not really supposed to support political parties like they're a football team, you're supposed to think about what they're saying and doing and whether you agree with it before you pick a side each time you vote. And if you're worried about being taxed too much it's ok to just admit it rather than regurgitating mindless bollocks about Marxism.
Well said
 

Ludens the Red

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Think Wright was blaming Leicester fans.
They called human an Irish C*nt
Noted.

apart from wright saying it was Leicester fans and that the abuse was anti irish, sure
So I’m wrong about which set of fans were chanting but that wasn’t the gist of what I was getting at.
I think it’s a bit daft for you to be placing an incident involving what was probably a small section of Leicester fans shouting racist abuse at Keane into a thread of “England fans, what is wrong with England fans” .

I mean if it wasn’t patently obvious in here over the summer. Not everyone who supports an English club supports England or is even English .

I mean, is that how this works now? Anytime there’s an incident of racism in the country of England, the ‘England fans’ thread gets bumped? Regardless of the set of fans involved or who they support. How is this anything other than dumb?

it’s a fecking stupid bump. Make a new thread detailing it or bump the racism in English football thread. Bumping this thread just looks like agenda nonsense to me.
 
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SER19

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Noted.



So I’m wrong about which set of fans were chanting but that wasn’t the gist of what I was getting at.
I think it’s a bit daft for you to be placing an incident involving what was probably a small section of Leicester fans shouting racist abuse at Keane into a thread of “England fans, what is wrong with England fans” .

I mean if it wasn’t patently obvious in here over the summer. Not everyone who supports an English club supports England or is even English .

I mean, is that how this works now? Anytime there’s an incident of racism in the country of England, the ‘England fans’ thread gets bumped? Regardless of the set of fans involved or who they support. How is this anything other than dumb?

it’s a fecking stupid bump. Make a new thread detailing it or bump the racism in English football thread. Bumping this thread just looks like agenda nonsense to me.
You're hyper defensive. It was the first game at Wembley since scenes that absolutely disgraced the nation and one of the most high profile pundits there has had to call out abuse based on another's nationality and hinted at racism towards himself.

You've countless posts in here where people point to fan behaviour at club level in other nations but you're not bothered by that, you're just hyper defensive about England and English football fans
 
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giorno

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Don't try to be clever now. You clearly said that Croatia, Serbia, Argentina and some other countries are not developed. This was not about which country is 1st, 2nd or 3rd.
That was just ignorant but think what you want. I can't debate with you anymore. Here in Croatia we have only one hour of internet per day so i must use it in a better way. And it is hard to connect with my Nokia 3310.
Next year we will get first smartphones so then i will have more freedom to use internet.
Pfft. If you had Nokia 3310 you'd be too busy playing snake to post here

I call lies!
 

Steve Bruce

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It's exactly this gutter level of public debate that that guy was talking about. The famously pacifist anti-racism campaigner is a violent anti-Semitic terrorist supporter, but the guy who sells billions of pounds worth of arms to Saudi Arabia every year to kill Yemeni civilians is just "a bumbling idiot".

You're not really supposed to support political parties like they're a football team, you're supposed to think about what they're saying and doing and whether you agree with it before you pick a side each time you vote. And if you're worried about being taxed too much it's ok to just admit it rather than regurgitating mindless bollocks about Marxism.
Your twisting of my words is indeed gutter level debate.

I never once said anything about Corbyn being a violent anything, you just added that in.

Then you make assumptions on who I vote for and how I vote. Again trying to create a picture for to suit your narrative.

Then you make assumptions on my views on taxes, something your way off the mark with. For example, I would like a tax created ring fenced for NHS on top of what already goes into the NHS for a start.

When I talked about Corbyn it's not purely about politics, it's about what I think is morally wrong. I think supporting terrorism is wrong. Whether it's IRA or UDA in northern Ireland or Hamas, Al Qaida or Islamic State.

I live in northern Ireland and it makes me sick that people glorify killers no matter what their background is.

So in conclusion you can peddle your made up theories about who you think I am all you want. I'm just glad I don't share your outlook on life
 

Ixion

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It isn't just football fans. It's a country that voted for Brexit and has voted for the Tories for over 10 years. It's full of selfish shitheads that would trample on their own mother at the drop of a hat.
 

Conor

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Meanwhile in Serbia, the Partizan Belgrade game is suspended because their fans were chanting the name of Ratko Mladic. The right and football is connected in most countries unfortunately, and England is no different.

I don’t really think it needs over analysis about the state of society etc, football has long attracted people like this, and if anything England is one of the most sanitised places in Europe to watch football.
As long as England are doing better than Serbia, that's the sort of standard you want to strive for.
 

Mickson

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Have you been to any holiday resort? The English are famous there, so it's not only football fans.
 

Dan_F

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As long as England are doing better than Serbia, that's the sort of standard you want to strive for.
Did you read anything other than the first sentence of what I wrote? And if you want to go down that road, are you pretending that fan violence doesn’t happen in places like Sweden, Denmark etc.

Of course this doesn’t excuse the behaviour of England fans and i don’t even want to come across as defending it, but the way I see some of the posts in this thread, it feels like people live in some kind of bubble around what happens in European football (not all the time of course).
 

Conor

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Did you read anything other than the first sentence of what I wrote? And if you want to go down that road, are you pretending that fan violence doesn’t happen in places like Sweden, Denmark etc.

Of course this doesn’t excuse the behaviour of England fans and i don’t even want to come across as defending it, but the way I see some of the posts in this thread, it feels like people live in some kind of bubble around what happens in European football (not all the time of course).
I just find it such a weird response to something like this, "well x and y are doing way worse things". Why do you need to say that?
 

Dan_F

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I just find it such a weird response to something like this, "well x and y are doing way worse things". Why do you need to say that?
Well, probably because that’s not what I said. I thought I’d made it quite clear why bought up other examples.

The thread is titled what’s wrong with England fans, my point is that England fans aren’t really any different to football fans all over Europe. I’m not seeing what is weird about that.