England fans, what is wrong with England fans?

Peter van der Gea

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Is it because the best coaches cost a bomb?
But couldn't a talented kid learn it on the street? The skills are all there on TV, slowed down and analysed. Kids in the street can do rainbow flicks, so where's the tennis Rooney?
 

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But couldn't a talented kid learn it on the street? The skills are all there on TV, slowed down and analysed. Kids in the street can do rainbow flicks, so where's the tennis Rooney?
I agree. I think it’s still just a very middle class sport. I guess golf is more or less the same? Street golf would be something to behold, more exciting I would wager :)
 

Peter van der Gea

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I agree. I think it’s still just a very middle class sport. I guess golf is more or less the same? Street golf would be something to behold, more exciting I would wager :)
See, with golf you need expensive clubs and a course and spiky shoes and tartan trousers blah, blah, blah, so I can understand that being a rich game, but tennis, no, you really don't need a lot of stuff.

I do know a couple of estates near where I grew up where they played street golf. There used to be lovely blue flashing lights at the street parties they had afterwards...
 

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See, with golf you need expensive clubs and a course and spiky shoes and tartan trousers blah, blah, blah, so I can understand that being a rich game, but tennis, no, you really don't need a lot of stuff.

I do know a couple of estates near where I grew up where they played street golf. There used to be lovely blue flashing lights at the street parties they had afterwards...
:lol:
 

Classical Mechanic

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I was talking about this with my wife the other day. It's funny how tennis, for which, basically, you need two bits of wood/rackets, a ball, a piece of string/net and some grass to play on, has such high financial barriers to entry.

You get street football, street cricket, loads of games/sports, but never tennis. It's weird.
Tennis courts are pretty big in fairness and there’s a paucity of them. I didn’t hit a single tennis ball at school. Participation is low. There is a tennis centre at the Etihad Campus (got my jab there) so I did wonder if there‘d be a drive to start producing some players from a different demographic but it still seems they’re coming from where they always have.
 

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This is a good post in the main, but to associate xenophobia largely (90%!?) with blue-collar workers is a presumptuous and somewhat ignorant-to-the-facts statement at best. In my experience, xenophobia is visible in all walks of life. Attributing it to one particular class of person is lazy and frankly not true.

Sorry, but I cannot stand social distinction in any form. It's a lazy view and mostly stereotypical.
you beat me to it.
The problem here is people are rolling two seperate issues into one. England "fans" (which I'll get to my rant about)...and racism.

Racism is not a football problem. It is a societal problem. It's really annoying seeing people trying to boil it down to football fans being racist. Most football fans are not racist. Football actually does a lot more to challenge and combat racism than almost any other sport, profession, or industry in the country. Its the only sport and one of the only careers where a working class kid from an ethnic minority, can have 1exactly the same chance and opportunity as a white kid from a privelidged background. The reason no black English tennis players get racially abused for example, is because you're still not really allowed to be a black English tennis player. Football one of the only industries where black men and women are idolised and seen as role models by society as a whole. It empowers people like Rashford and Sterling to actually speak out on issues and force change through the support football affords them from the general public and society. None of this would be remotely possible if football fans were racist. Football fans are a reflection on society. If you put 50,000 people together, you will get the odd racist. If you put 5,000,000 people together as happens with England games, there will be thousands of "the odd racist"...you only eliminate the problem by tackling it as a societal issue. Not by being a snobbish out of touch prune/lefty warrior who thinks all the racists go to the football games to be racist. The only reason it draws the racists in is because football in this country dares as an industry to be vocal and loud about racial issues. So every racists sees it as a target...other idiots who just want someone to feel as angry as they do about a penalty shootout use racism as a weapon. As long as society has racism it will seep into everything, including football.

The second issue...England fans...so I've been to games at a few tournaments with England now, and obviously live in England, and the conclusion I've drawn is again that there is a BIT of a misconception. When I have been to games abroad, England fans have generally been good natured...drunk and annoying maybe but not really any worse than other sets of fans...the problem is actually more evident here in England...and again its more a societal problem I think. England games during a tournament become the excuse for morons to get drunk, do their lines, and be aggressive about something...and again, instead of 50,000 in a ground, its millions of them, everywhere. Like 20 typical Saturday nights in London all happening at the same time. Or everyone going on their lads holiday abroad at exactly the same time, to exactly the same place. We have a real problem in this country of drinking and going out culture where it seems to be about getting as wrecked as possible, and then becoming an uber confident annoying prick...and it transfers over to England games because they obviously draw a lot of attention. I noticed it in the ground against Germany...that was the first time I've been to an England game and thought "actually, there's a lot of annoying cnuts around"...and it was still a minority, but you know the type of groups of blokes who you encounter on a night out, who you know will kick off if you just stare at them the wrong way or don't find something insulting they say funny. I'm sure you get these types of people in other countries, but I associate it as being an English trait because of how fecking common it is here. I don't think there's this problem of dedicated England fans going round looking for fights or trouble...this is different to the 80s...England fans go to England games to support England...but there is this problem of English people having this culture of getting drunk and being a complete bellend, and when you throw the drama of football into it, then you give all of them their excuse to kick off.
I think its more that there is a financial wall to playing tennis which makes it hard for the average black lad to get trained. Have you seen the cost to "build a tennis player?" Murray's mum spent ridiculous amount.
What is this? The 2nd ranked British female player is black! The new darling of British womens tennis is Chinese/Romanian. The number one ranked British female player parents are Hungarian. They do all come from affluent families though which makes it a more white sport on average.

The Wimbledon crowd wouldn't abuse a black player at least. Have any of the black players from other countries ever been racially abused by the crowd?

It's a totally different atmosphere to football. The crowd actually support foreign players. Federer is the darling of the place and players like Becker and Williams are well loved too.
I think that's what he/she was alluding to. Its not a sport less privileged can just pick up. Tennis attracts a different type of crowd and the crowds are smaller and closer to the action so if you shout racist abuse you will probably get ejected
 

Classical Mechanic

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I think that's what he/she was alluding to. Its not a sport less privileged can just pick up. Tennis attracts a different type of crowd and the crowds are smaller and closer to the action so if you shout racist abuse you will probably get ejected
Im sceptical the Wimbledon crowd is contained from spouting racist abuse due to the smallness of the crowd. They’re so good natured and jolly they almost make you want to snort some cocaine and stick a flare up your arse.
 

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Whether or not you can ‘stand’ social distinctions within society, the fact remains that they not only exist but are central to any discussion of our England football hooliganism problem, our societal mores, our politics, our general discourse, the way this country votes and behaves, our increasing propensity towards conservative attitudes and a fear of both foreigners and globalism as exemplified by brexit and driven by the 50% of the population who both lack a university degree and feel empowered to display those toxic attitudes in public.

Yes, xenophobia and boorishness exists within all walks of society. It’s just considered to be more socially acceptable to display it overtly at a football ground than in a cricket ground.
If that was even remotely true, the Kick it Out campaign, and various other movements currently fighting racism in football, would not exist. Racism or prejudice (the same thing if you ask me) is no more accepted at Old Trafford than it is at Lord's.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're prepared to accept Xenophobia as an issue within all social classes, but it is prevalent in that of the working class?
 

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It's perhaps worth pointing that I enjoy cricket as much as the next Englishman, yet I'm very much a blue-collar worker.
 

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I think it pretty obvious; they can’t handle their liquor. Go to any popular destination like Las Vegas or Cuba and you’ll always find the pissed up Englishman who wants to fight everyone.
 

Peter van der Gea

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I think its more that there is a financial wall to playing tennis which makes it hard for the average black lad to get trained. Have you seen the cost to "build a tennis player?" Murray's mum spent ridiculous amount.
Did it explain why a naturally talented working class kid couldn't train himself?

I can understand the coaches are expensive, but is what they do that important that a talented, instinctive, self taught player wouldn't be able to get onto the circuit and earn some prize, so they can pay for coaches later?
 

manutddjw

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Just the one? And he's a stereotype for millions? He must be knackered.
you know it’s not a stereotype of just one. Look at any international football. Other countries people go and also drink to excess but they don’t wreck stuff and try to fight everyone (and usually come out on the losing end).
 

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Did it explain why a naturally talented working class kid couldn't train himself?

I can understand the coaches are expensive, but is what they do that important that a talented, instinctive, self taught player wouldn't be able to get onto the circuit and earn some prize, so they can pay for coaches later?
Even if we assume that kids can somehow train themselves to competitive levels (which they most likely can't unless they have Mozart levels of talent), Tennis is just an expensive sport, for football you just need someone to have a ball and a random yard to play, for tennis everyone needs to buy a racket and you need to rent a court.
 

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Did it explain why a naturally talented working class kid couldn't train himself?

I can understand the coaches are expensive, but is what they do that important that a talented, instinctive, self taught player wouldn't be able to get onto the circuit and earn some prize, so they can pay for coaches later?
naturally talented? I don't know how you are naturally talented at tennis. Also how do you self teach tennis?
 

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Did it explain why a naturally talented working class kid couldn't train himself?

I can understand the coaches are expensive, but is what they do that important that a talented, instinctive, self taught player wouldn't be able to get onto the circuit and earn some prize, so they can pay for coaches later?
Yes. Is the answer to that question. 100% yes.
 

Peter van der Gea

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Even if we assume that kids can somehow train themselves to competitive levels (which they most likely can't unless they have Mozart levels of talent), Tennis is just an expensive sport, for football you just need someone to have a ball and a random yard to play, for tennis everyone needs to buy a racket and you need to rent a court.
Kids play football with tennis balls and tin cans here still, getting something tennis racket-like can't be hard and you can get cheap ones anyway.

You only have to buy it once. And you don't need a court, you can just use any flat piece of grass. If you really need to draw the lines out, you can use chalk or salt.

If you can find superstar footballers from the Brazilian favelas or Wythenshawe, why can't you find a kid from Wandsworth who can play competitive tennis?
 

Peter van der Gea

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naturally talented? I don't know how you are naturally talented at tennis. Also how do you self teach tennis?
Well, you know, naturally talented at sport, in particular the type of endurance tennis needs, with good hand eye coordination and a good judge of weight when hitting something.

And self teaching tennis surely would be like self teaching football, playing and practicing.
Yes. Is the answer to that question. 100% yes.
What is that though? How to hit the ball right? Couldn't you work that out by trail and error? Where to position yourself? If you played enough, wouldn't you learn that?

I'm not trying to be dense, I walk past tennis courts most days, and I can't work out what magic dust they're sprinkling, more than a football coach or a cricket coach. I know Ian Wright was years ago, but it is possible to have a career in professional football without being professionally coached as a youth.
 

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Well, you know, naturally talented at sport, in particular the type of endurance tennis needs, with good hand eye coordination and a good judge of weight when hitting something.

And self teaching tennis surely would be like self teaching football, playing and practicing.

What is that though? How to hit the ball right? Couldn't you work that out by trail and error? Where to position yourself? If you played enough, wouldn't you learn that?

I'm not trying to be dense, I walk past tennis courts most days, and I can't work out what magic dust they're sprinkling, more than a football coach or a cricket coach. I know Ian Wright was years ago, but it is possible to have a career in professional football without being professionally coached as a youth.
Tennis is just a much much more technical sport. If you’d played both you’d understand. Perfecting a tennis stroke can take years. How long do you spend in football training making minor tweaks to the way you kick the ball?
 

Peter van der Gea

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Tennis is just a much much more technical sport. If you’d played both you’d understand. Perfecting a tennis stroke can take years. How long do you spend in football training making minor tweaks to the way you kick the ball?
I get that, but just like in football, some kids must just have that instinct. You know, like when your play five a side or something and some kid comes along and blows everyone away
 

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Kids play football with tennis balls and tin cans here still, getting something tennis racket-like can't be hard and you can get cheap ones anyway.

You only have to buy it once. And you don't need a court, you can just use any flat piece of grass. If you really need to draw the lines out, you can use chalk or salt.

If you can find superstar footballers from the Brazilian favelas or Wythenshawe, why can't you find a kid from Wandsworth who can play competitive tennis?
You can't play Tennis on any random stretch of grass, it needs to be level and to have a net. Kids play with smaller rackets, that need to be upgraded at some point, balls after a while lose their bounce, so they need replacing, too.
Compare that to football, where you need one cheap ball for a dozen kids to play and you're good to go. Kids also don't go from a dirty yard straight to being pro either. Brazil has one of the best leagues in SA, their clubs have academies.
A talented kid in football is also an asset for its club, that can bring a lot of money if developed well. Tennis, being a solo sport, probably doesn't have these incentives.
 

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If that was even remotely true, the Kick it Out campaign, and various other movements currently fighting racism in football, would not exist. Racism or prejudice (the same thing if you ask me) is no more accepted at Old Trafford than it is at Lord's.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're prepared to accept Xenophobia as an issue within all social classes, but it is prevalent in that of the working class?
When was the last time you saw or heard of England cricket or rugby fans a) breaking into a stadium without a ticket during a pandemic to fill seats explicitly left empty to mitigate spread of the virus b) setting off arse-flares c) rioting outside stadia d) spewing racist invective at their own players on social media e) destroying city centres following hours of drunken revelry?

Despite all the opprobrium regarding such despicable behaviour there is a significant cohort of England football fans (and yes, these will almost certainly comprise fans who regularly attend club games at your beloved OT and my beloved Anfield, not just the usual millwall and Chelsea thugs) who simply don’t care. Mainly because there are enough of them who believe thoroughly in the views they espouse in public on the streets and equally in public on SM.

And that boils down, plain and simple, to a) socioeconomic class b) degree of literacy c) a primitive and regressive world-view. These aren’t doctors and physicists and barristers setting off arse-flares in the streets, loading up on lager, trashing cars in the street whilst wrapped in the flag of St George, mouthing off about black players missing penalties on social media. I find it frankly bizarre that I have to spell this out so explicitly.
 

V.O.

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So there we have it, the solution to most societal ills is simply to kill the poor. Why didn't I think of that?
 

Classical Mechanic

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I said its a different type of crowd
Saying that minorities are not welcome in tennis is inaccurate though. Poor people of all demographics face a barrier to it. Even regular middle class people do. If you look at the three female British tennis players I mentioned then they all come from more upper middle class backgrounds. Joanna Konta's dad manages a hotel whilst her mum is a dentist, Heather Watson was born in the tax haven of Guernsey where her dad runs Guernsey Electricity and Emma Raducanu's parents are both in finance and she went to a selective grammar school. The Etihad tennis centre is the only proper tennis facility in Manchester that is non-membership. Membership at David Lloyd's is about £1000 a year and that's before you get into actual tennis lessons.

So there we have it, the solution to most societal ills is simply to kill the poor. Why didn't I think of that?
Alleviating social depravation might be a more humane solution.
 

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Saying that minorities are not welcome in tennis is inaccurate though. Poor people of all demographics face a barrier to it. Even regular middle class people do. If you look at the three female British tennis players I mentioned then they all come from more upper middle class backgrounds. Joanna Konta's dad manages a hotel whilst her mum is a dentist, Heather Watson was born in the tax haven of Guernsey where her dad runs Guernsey Electricity and Emma Raducanu's parents are both in finance and she went to a selective grammar school. The Etihad tennis centre is the only proper tennis facility in Manchester that is non-membership. Membership at David Lloyd's is about £1000 a year and that's before you get into actual tennis lessons.



Alleviating social depravation might be a more humane solution.
Yeah the poster positioned it wrong. Tennis lessons can cost £30 per hour. So £60 for 2 hours. Now if you have 3 sessions a week thats £200 per week on top of the £1000 per year. Multiply that by 52 and its £10,000 per annum for 6 hours of tennis coaching per week. When I played football I paid £1 for training and £3 for a game. Boxing is still only £5 for me as an adult. you can see why the talent pool goes to football and boxing.
 

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I don't want to tempt fate in case you came and got hurt but I honestly feel you would be ok. There are plenty of games in England that go on without any issue. Obviously if England lose then you are toast. All jokes aside if the Russians were able to chill for their WC I am sure we would have harsher punishments and extra police horses and dogs to deal with the filth. When it comes to World Cups the reputation is at stake. Brazil and SA managed to keep everyone safe and England has better resources.
World Cups are world cups, Brazil did this because they want to give a good image for tourists.
Their security is mostly utter garbage for normal Brasileirao (brazilian league) games every weekend, and there are always clashes between brazilian ultras and policemen.
Brazil,Argentina, and Colombia are definitely worse than England when it comes to security in club football...just because they hide it very well in international football it doesn't mean that those countries care more about security tham England.
Turkey can organize an nice and safe sport event tomorrow, that doesn't mean that there isn't hooliganism in turkish football, especially when just a couple of years ago some turkish ultras were shooting the bus of a football team with guns.They were aiming for the players, but ended up hurting the driver, fortunately no one died.

I'm not even english ,but this "England the worst, everyone do better than us" it's ridiculous
 

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So essentially needed way, way more police and probably tear gas and baton rounds to control a crowd of that size hell bent on forcing their way in to the ground.

150k people at Wembley with only 60k with tickets is crazy.
 

TheReligion

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I think it pretty obvious; they can’t handle their liquor. Go to any popular destination like Las Vegas or Cuba and you’ll always find the pissed up Englishman who wants to fight everyone.
I think what's obvious is they drink more as opposed to not being able to handle it. That's the issue.
 

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World Cups are world cups, Brazil did this because they want to give a good image for tourists.
Their security is mostly utter garbage for normal Brasileirao (brazilian league) games every weekend, and there are always clashes between brazilian ultras and policemen.
Brazil,Argentina, and Colombia are definitely worse than England when it comes to security in club football...just because they hide it very well in international football it doesn't mean that those countries care more about security tham England.
Turkey can organize an nice and safe sport event tomorrow, that doesn't mean that there isn't hooliganism in turkish football, especially when just a couple of years ago some turkish ultras were shooting the bus of a football team with guns.They were aiming for the players, but ended up hurting the driver, fortunately no one died.

I'm not even english ,but this "England the worst, everyone do better than us" it's ridiculous
People simply not plugged in to other nations issues with football.
 

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It's an interesting debate and one I don't believe there is a correct or absolute answer to. The reality is that large parts of society which make up our national football teams "fanbase" use football as an excuse to practice and indulge anti social behaviour. Including:

Excessive drinking
Violence
Drug use
Loat-ish / Yobbish behaviours
Vandalism
...etc.

This comes in varying degrees.

As many posters have pointed out this is not a solely English problem but I believe this is exacerbated with English men due to the "lad" culture adopted by so many.

Drinking/drug use is a major issue, too often the aim is to "get pissed" and the event is planned based on that. This is not unique to football or indeed to certain social demographics. But it is definately prominent in English culture. People often grade the enjoyment of an event based on how drunk they will get. E.G. "It's my birthday Friday, I'm gonna get wrecked" "last night was so good, I was blindo" ...etc.

I've followed united for over 25 years and at numerous big games I've known various friends and fellow match goers (from all walks of life and professions I might add) adopting this sort of mentality. This is what fuels the major flare ups we see, as large groups of people lose control/inhibitions through intoxication. Then due to number's decend into mob culture where the lowest common denominator becomes the acceptable norm.

I do agree with many on here that this is a minority issue however the scale makes the minority an issue. Compared to other sports football has more participants. At the major events wether at national level or when one (or more) of the mega clubs are involved these incidents will appear.
 

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There are countries with worse.

I'm not english, but to think England is the worst, seems stupid....

I've seen worse stuff in Croatia,Turkey,Brazil, Argentina,Colombia,Serbia, and such.

Maybe i would say that England might be the worst of all developed countries, even though dutchs ultras are pretty close...but that's it.
You fecking ignorant idiot.
 

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“England fans” is a pretty blanket statement. You’re putting together millions of people who are all very different just because of one thing they have in common.

It’s really no different to the “black/white people” arguments you see all the time about social issues.

Some England fans are dick heads, most aren’t.
 

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Now that the dust has settled, I think the worst things that happened were:
  1. Littering: your fellow brits really litter a lot, and that's coming from someone who lives in Portugal, where the population is a bit carelless with trash.
  2. Storminng the stadium without tickets: this is really inexcusable from someone organising a major event like this. It was a total irresponsable planning by both authorities, FA, governing bodies, etc. Now in the middle of all this thank God most of those stormers were not armed, or carrying explosives.
  3. Authorities passivity with crowds vandalizing cars and stores: the riot police just stand there watching.
There were no casualties and the major problems were vandalism, littering and online abuse. I think overall it went better than almost every other country.
 
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English society has some serious problems.

There's a lot of hate and bitterness in England and that fire has been stoked by Johnson, Farage et al. And is now out of control.

Things are going to have to get much worse before England is ready to reflect and change.
 

Wilt

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English society has some serious problems.

There's a lot of hate and bitterness in England and that fire has been stoked by Johnson, Farage et al. And is now out of control.

Things are going to have to get much worse before England is ready to reflect and change.
Farage and Johnson weren’t around in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s when the football hooliganism was far worse than it is today.