England squad (Games against Bulgaria and Kosovo)

Jimmy Skitz

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To get him in the squad, see how his personality fits in the group etc? Southgate said after selecting him that he didn't really know how to fit him in whilst Mount was a natural fit for the system.
if you can't work out how to fit someone like Maddison into a 433 when his club team is literally playing the same system then you should resign as you are clearly too dumb to be a manager
 

SquishyMcSquish

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I've said it a lot but I don't rate Eriksen. Never have. Maddison is already better for me.
Ah well, that's your opinion I guess.

But Eriksen scores more, assists more, is a better finisher (on both feet, unlike Maddison) and they're both similar in terms of their passing range.

I rate Maddison, but I think you'll struggle to find even some hardcore Leicester fans who think he's already better than Eriksen. If that was the case then there's no way Southgate could even dream of leaving him out.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Jimmy Skitz

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RochaRoja

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Ah well, that's your opinion I guess.

But Eriksen scores more, assists more, is a better finisher (on both feet, unlike Maddison) and they're both similar in terms of their passing range.

I rate Maddison, but I think you'll struggle to find even some hardcore Leicester fans who think he's already better than Eriksen. If that was the case then there's no way Southgate could even dream of leaving him out.
Saying Maddison is better than Eriksen pretty much invalidates any opinion you may have on the guy tbh.

It's Rashford > Mbappe levels of delusion.
 

SquishyMcSquish

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if you can't work out how to fit someone like Maddison into a 433 when his club team is literally playing the same system then you should resign as you are clearly too dumb to be a manager
:lol: Weird isn't it.

Not to mention I bet Alli will go straight in to the lineup (southgate seemed to be able to force him in pretty comfortably) when he's back/in some kind of form, and he plays more advanced than Maddison does. And he found time to bring Mount in to the game who as far as I'm aware has been playing as the most advanced midfielder in a 4-2-3-1 for Chelsea this season.

The 'doesnt fit in to the system' bullshit is just that. Southgate clearly just doesn't rate him that highly for whatever reason. Time will tell whether he's right on that or not.
 

Yagami

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Maddison when playing in a 3 is often sitting deeper allowing Tielemans to bomb on, he is very tactically aware and when in the role doing just go forward and leave the side exposed, if Southgate doesn't rate him fine, but say that and don't select him and don't make up crap excuses for it
Yeah, he was just all round impressive as a CM, and I was already impressed with him as a LW who'd cut in and playmake like how Nasri and D.Silva used to do together at City, too.

I thought he built a good understanding with Maguire, Chillwell and occasionally Barnes down your left last year as a CM. Replace Barnes with Sterling and England's left could cause so much havoc, never mind us just being lethal in general with Maddison playmaking behind Kane, Sterling and one of Rashford/Sancho.
Ah well, that's your opinion I guess.

But Eriksen scores more, assists more, is a better finisher (on both feet, unlike Maddison) and they're both similar in terms of their passing range.

I rate Maddison, but I think you'll struggle to find even some hardcore Leicester fans who think he's already better than Eriksen. If that was the case then there's no way Southgate could even dream of leaving him out.
Oh, I definitely know I'm in the minority in regards to that opinion and that's completely fair and understandable.

Yes, Eriksen has better stats, but Maddison's general play is just a lot better for me. I love how good he is at resisting pressing opposition with his excellent close control, ball shielding, and dribbling.
 

roonster09

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To get him in the squad, see how his personality fits in the group etc? Southgate said after selecting him that he didn't really know how to fit him in whilst Mount was a natural fit for the system.
Fair enough if he doesn't rate him as highly as others, just that excuses/reasons for why he didn't play look bit weak.

Can't blame him too much though, by far the best English NT manager I have seen or remember.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Saying Maddison is better than Eriksen pretty much invalidates any opinion you may have on the guy tbh.

It's Rashford > Mbappe levels of delusion.
Eriksen is in the prime of his career. When he joined Spurs around the age Maddison is now his output for the first couple of seasons was around the same as Maddison's was in his first PL season. Players develop and get better as they get older.

@Jimmy Skitz

I'll take your word for it on the formation.
 

Yagami

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Saying Maddison is better than Eriksen pretty much invalidates any opinion you may have on the guy tbh.

It's Rashford > Mbappe levels of delusion.
Not really...

Rashford, as much as I like and rate him, hasn't terrorized teams the way M'bappé has.

Maddison last year created more chances in the PL than Pogba, De Bryune, D.Silva and Eriksen, and he was playing in a struggling team under Puel for the most part, too.

Not to mention that as well as those chances created, he scored some bangers, too, and his general play was, to me, more impressive than Eriksen's. He looked like a PL veteran in his debut season.
 

roonster09

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Someone should create video of all the chances created by Maddison. IIRC his average xA per chance created was low. Looks like headers won from set pieces.
 

Yagami

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Fair enough if he doesn't rate him as highly as others, just that excuses/reasons for why he didn't play look bit weak.

Can't blame him too much though, by far the best English NT manager I have seen or remember.
Yeah, I don't wanna harp too much on Southgate. Regardless of his decision on Maddison he's done (and still doing) a great job!
Someone should create video of all the chances created by Maddison. IIRC his average xA per chance created was low. Looks like headers won from set pieces.
Still, we as United fans know a good set piece taker is important! :D
 

roonster09

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Yeah, I don't wanna harp too much on Southgate. Regardless of his decision on Maddison he's done (and still doing) a great job!

Still, we as United fans know a good set piece taker is important! :D
Yeah, I know good set piece taker is worth a lot to the team but any header won is counted as a chance created. That's the problem with these chances created stats, especially for set piece takers.
 

SquishyMcSquish

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Eriksen is in the prime of his career. When he joined Spurs around the age Maddison is now his output for the first couple of seasons was around the same as Maddison's was in his first PL season. Players develop and get better as they get older.

@Jimmy Skitz

I'll take your word for it on the formation.

The argument is that Maddison>Eriksen right now though, not what potential Maddison has. Whilst I think he has great ability, here and now Eriksen is a much more polished player than he is.

@Yagami I respect your opinion and that's entirely fair, but whilst Maddison is definitely the more exciting dribbler and a better set piece taker, I don't think he takes anything else over Eriksen right now. And if we're talking bangers then we all know what Eriksen is capable of in that regard.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Someone should create video of all the chances created by Maddison. IIRC his average xA per chance created was low. Looks like headers won from set pieces.
He was 9th in xA in the Premier League last season though, one ahead of........Eriksen in 10th :). Eriksen had more assists by virtue of playing with players like Kane which enabled him to comfortably outperform his xA.
 

Yagami

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Yeah, I know good set piece taker is worth a lot to the team but any header won is counted as a chance created. That's the problem with these chances created stats, especially for set piece takers.
True, mate. Even if he just passed it to someone next to him from far out and they have a lash counts so it can be misleading, granted!

Still, the games I watch of Leicester he really is a creative player. England's best at the moment, imo.
 

Yagami

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The argument is that Maddison>Eriksen right now though, not what potential Maddison has. Whilst I think he has great ability, here and now Eriksen is a much more polished player than he is.

@Yagami I respect your opinion and that's entirely fair, but whilst Maddison is definitely the more exciting dribbler and a better set piece taker, I don't think he takes anything else over Eriksen right now. And if we're talking bangers then we all know what Eriksen is capable of in that regard.
Yeah, that's fair, mate.

For me, it just comes down to personal preference from what I like to see in a CM which is why I'm not saying my opinion is fact or anything, and can see why people don't agree which is definitely understandable.
 

roonster09

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True, mate. Even if he just passed it to someone next to him from far out and they have a lash counts so it can be misleading, granted!

Still, the games I watch of Leicester he really is a creative player. England's best at the moment, imo.
Yeah, I like him. He is very talented player. It's just that stats abuse is too much when it comes to Maddison. Most chances created should be considered with other stats to give better context.
 

roonster09

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He was 9th in xA in the Premier League last season though, one ahead of........Eriksen in 10th :). Eriksen had more assists by virtue of playing with players like Kane which enabled him to comfortably outperform his xA.
Yeah, not saying he isn't good player. Obviously he is. Just that people should calm down with "most chances created" stat whenever Maddison is discussed. Most don't know that any header won by attacker from set pieces is a chance created, doesn't matter how good or bad the set piece is.
 

Yagami

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Yeah, I like him. He is very talented player. It's just that stats abuse is too much when it comes to Maddison. Most chances created should be considered with other stats to give better context.
The reason I was so impressed with said stat was because I thought De Bryune and D.Silva would be way ahead of everyone when you factor in how good both are, how creative in general they are, and how they (City) seemingly have 20-30 shots a game regardless of opposition! Though that probably isn't true, it sure does feel like they have that many shots.
 

RochaRoja

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Eriksen is in the prime of his career. When he joined Spurs around the age Maddison is now his output for the first couple of seasons was around the same as Maddison's was in his first PL season. Players develop and get better as they get older.
Nah, Eriksen scored 10 and assisted 12 in his first season at Spurs despite playing the majority of the season on the left of a flat midfield four. Maddison's stats are inferior even though he played a more offensive role. He's been the superior player by far at every stage of his career.
 

roonster09

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The reason I was so impressed with said stat was because I thought De Bryune and D.Silva would be way ahead of everyone when you factor in how good both are, how creative in general they are, and how they (City) seemingly have 20-30 shots a game regardless of opposition! Though that probably isn't true, it sure does feel like they have that many shots.
Tbf to KdB, he barely played last season.
 

Treble

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Maddison didn't impress in the U21 Euros in June. Foden looked better than him. To present him as a creative genius is premature. Very good and promising player but still a long way to go before being compared to the top creative players in the league, imo.
 

Yagami

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Tbf to KdB, he barely played last season.
You're right! I completely forgot about his injury problems as I try to avoid City when they're not facing us as it's depressing how good they are :lol:
 

RochaRoja

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Not really...

Rashford, as much as I like and rate him, hasn't terrorized teams the way M'bappé has.

Maddison last year created more chances in the PL than Pogba, De Bryune, D.Silva and Eriksen, and he was playing in a struggling team under Puel for the most part, too.

Not to mention that as well as those chances created, he scored some bangers, too, and his general play was, to me, more impressive than Eriksen's. He looked like a PL veteran in his debut season.
Honestly, if he was half as good as he's billed to be he wouldn't be at Leicester right now (and would be able to get on the pitch for England).
 

Jimmy Skitz

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England rely on set pieces, I wonder if having someone with exceptional delivery might be of benefit?
 

Classical Mechanic

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Nah, Eriksen scored 10 and assisted 12 in his first season at Spurs despite playing the majority of the season on the left of a flat midfield four. Maddison's stats are inferior even though he played a more offensive role. He's been the superior player by far at every stage of his career.
Where did you get those stats from?

First season he got 15 goals and assists combined and second season he got 12. I'm talking PL obviously because that's the high level competition they both play in.

Maddison got 14 combined last season.
 

Yagami

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Honestly, if he was half as good as he's billed to be he wouldn't be at Leicester right now (and would be able to get on the pitch for England).
Fair enough if you disagree, mate.

Leicester are a good team, though, and I think some of the big teams were looking at him the window just gone as well? I remember us being linked to him a fair bit, but I don't think Leicester were ever going to sell this season unless, like Maguire, the fee was too big to turn down.
 

RochaRoja

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Fair enough if you disagree, mate.

Leicester are a good team, though, and I think some of the big teams were looking at him the window just gone as well? I remember us being linked to him a fair bit, but I don't think Leicester were ever going to sell this season unless, like Maguire, the fee was too big to turn down.
It's kind of interesting really. Before he went to Leicester, big teams looked at him and decided not to sign him, a year later the same thing happens. Southgate looks at him and doesn't give him a cap.

Alarm bells would be going off in Souness's head if the lad was a few shades darker.
 

GenZRed

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I'm not sure if Phil Foden would be good enough for England seniors right now. He hasn't had enough of first team football to justify his inclusion. Considering that Maddison can't seem to get into the squad as well, which is weird since he certainly seems to be a top player. He is much more experienced at this level then Mason Mount anyway.
 

1966

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You make some good points about Winks' regression into a more conservative player, too. The bits about him being a perfectionist in regards to his stats and the toll his injury problems may have had on him especially.

Again, I liken him back to Cleverley. He was someone who favoured a high pass completion stat (as seen by some interviews he gave as a United player when defending his style of play), and also seemed to lose something about him after an injury away to Bolton in 11/12, and some successive ones the same season that kept him out for most of said season.

Before the Kevin Davies tackle, he was a really progressive CM those first few games and, during his loans to the likes of Wigan and Watford, he was pretty much an attacking midfielder or winger rather than a CM, and seemed to contribute well to said teams attacks.

I liked Cleverley but Winks is obviously a more natural footballer and, in general, just better, but his issues in regards to becoming a conservative player really does remind me of Tom. I digress, though!
Sorry for the late reply. I've only just noticed this post. But the parallel you draw with Cleverley seems reasonable to me.

As someone who follows the PL in general without supporting a particular club, I think you'd know a lot more about Cleverley's career trajectory than me, especially towards the beginning, but what I do know tracks with what you've said here.

And cheers, lad.
 

1966

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Yep, Kosovo is a very attacking team, whom at the same time is quite vulnerable at the back. This works well when we play against teams which are more or less our level (the other teams in the group), but I cannot see it at all working against England whom have a much higher quality squad.

Also, it doesn't help that some of our best players are missing, making this mission even more impossible.
Sorry I didn't reply to this at the time.

I hope you enjoyed the international break and took pleasure in at least the performance against us. I know we broke your phenomenal unbeaten streak but scoring 3 against England - giving the noisy supporters plenty to celebrate - and forcing a team of our stature into wasting time at the end of the match must've been very heartening.

Your team came to play and play they did! They're really more than the sum of their parts, especially when you find out the kind of club teams they play for. They played with a fantastic urgency and desire and passion -- the kind of thing we could use some more of. They didn't know when they were beaten and continued to play football at 5-1 down (I had an inkling that you would go more conservative away against us, despite all the promises to the contrary, but no).

It was an impressive performance, which in turn made it a highly entertaining game -- the best game of our qualifying group so far. It was somewhat ironic coming immediately after I posted a long thesis on why England will never be entertaining in qualifiers to people who don't care enough. Turns out the matches can be very interesting, even for neutrals, when the opposition is right.

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to the away fixture now and expect it to be a genuine challenge. :)

(On a sidenote, it was nice to see all the appreciative Kosovo fans in Southampton who were excited but grateful to England and the UK in general for obvious reasons)