English coaches/tacticians

[Suedesi]

Just occurred to me reading over the Gareth Southgate thread - how unusual it is that England have not produced any world class coaches/tacticians (Bobby Robson aside) for as long as I can remember.

In a time when Italy have produced Arrigo Sacchi, Giovanni Trappatoni, Marcello Lippi, Antonio Conte, Max Allegri, Roberto Mancini etc -
Spain Pep Guardiola, Luis Aragones, Vicente Del Bosque, Luis Enrique, Unai Emery etc
Germany - Jupp Heynckes, Ottmar Hitzfeld, Juergen Klopp, Jogi Low, Hansi Flick, Thomas Tuchel, Julian Nagelsmann etc -
Portugal - Jose Mourinho, Fernando Santos
France - Aime Jacquet, Arsene Wenger, Zinedine Zidane, Didier Deschamps etc -

I can't think of any English coaches that stands out or has achieved anything meaningful in the last 30 years - why is that?

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Sean Dyche

 

[adexkola]

Pulis
Big Sam

 

[Maurice Setters Training]

Venables was up there as a good tactician IMO- albeit not cutting edge.

 

[48 hours]

Didn’t Rio think Hoddle was a masterful coach?

 

[V.O.]

Pulis
Big Sam

Can't even claim Pulis. He's Welsh.

 

[Red_toad]

Just occurred to me reading over the Gareth Southgate thread - how unusual it is that England have not produced any world class coaches/tacticians (Bobby Robson aside) for as long as I can remember.

In a time when Italy have produced Arrigo Sacchi, Giovanni Trappatoni, Marcello Lippi, Antonio Conte, Max Allegri, Roberto Mancini etc -
Spain Pep Guardiola, Luis Aragones, Vicente Del Bosque, Luis Enrique, Unai Emery etc
Germany - Jupp Heynckes, Ottmar Hitzfeld, Juergen Klopp, Jogi Low, Hansi Flick, Thomas Tuchel, Julian Nagelsmann etc -
Portugal - Jose Mourinho, Fernando Santos
France - Aime Jacquet, Arsene Wenger, Zinedine Zidane, Didier Deschamps etc -

I can't think of any English coaches that stands out or has achieved anything meaningful in the last 30 years - why is that?

Clough did wonders at Forest.
And lets not forget Paisley, he was an amazing manager for the vermin.
Are we only classing coaches as world class if they win the champions league?

 

[Berbaclass]

Potter?

 

[Green_Red]

1. Not being given the opportunity to succeed at the very top
2. A fethishisation with continental managers in the Premier League (see point 1)
3. Lack of international opportunities - English clubs will happily hire managers from abroad but you rarely see English managers being hired by clubs on the continent
4. Lack of English players plying their trade outside of the English leagues, limiting their exposure to different tactical approaches
5. Language - compounds points 3 and 4. How many English players/managers speak multiple languages? Compare that that to Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Spanish and German players who often speak multiple languages. I think it has an impact on clubs on the continent looking at English players.

If you consider British managers.
The names Busby, Ferguson, Shankley, Paisley, Stein and Clough would sit nicely amongst any of the top European managers and collectively have probably achieved more than any other European manager collection.

That would be interesting to see, which country ranks highest in terms of European Cup winning managers, I would bet Britain is close, if not at the top.

 

[Suedesi]

Clough did wonders at Forest.
And lets not forget Paisley, he was an amazing manager for the vermin.
Are we only classing coaches as world class if they win the champions league?

Fair enough - those two were great, but that's going back 40 years.

 

[Lay]

David Moyes set British coaches back by 20 years

 

[Physiocrat]

1. Not being given the opportunity to succeed at the very top
2. A fethishisation with continental managers in the Premier League (see point 1)
3. Lack of international opportunities - English clubs will happily hire managers from abroad but you rarely see English managers being hired by clubs on the continent
4. Lack of English players plying their trade outside of the English leagues, limiting their exposure to different tactical approaches
5. Language - compounds points 3 and 4. How many English players/managers speak multiple languages? Compare that that to Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Spanish and German players who often speak multiple languages. I think it has an impact on clubs on the continent looking at English players.

If you consider British managers.
The names Busby, Ferguson, Shankley, Paisley, Stein and Clough would sit nicely amongst any of the top European managers and collectively have probably achieved more than any other European manager collection.

That would be interesting to see, which country ranks highest in terms of European Cup winning managers, I would bet Britain is close, if not at the top.

Good post

 

[Trequarista10]

Think England were a bit behind tactically during the 90s and early 2000s, so I don't think we'll see a top English manager until the players who began their careers post 2005-2010 go into management. The players whose grounding in the game wasnt centred around getting stuck in and showing desire, 442, getting wide and in behind and balls into the box.

Lampard possibly a bit too early to be in that demographic but has shown more potential than other young English managers, so he may come good if he gets another gig. This an assumption based largely on the fact he's a bit brighter than the average English footballer though.

Didn’t Rio think Hoddle was a masterful coach?

Quiet a few players have spoken highly about Hoddle, I'm sure Scholesy said he was the best England manager in terms of getting to team to play in a certain style.

 

[redshaw]

Perhaps top people get involved in other areas of business and sport. F1 has seen the best come from England.

It's not just the last 30 years, a small country of 6 million on these shores have produced the best. Where would club football on these shores be without Alex Ferguson, Stein, Busby, Shankly, Dalglish, George Graham.

England should've produced a lot more managers/coaches going back 60-70 years, there's been Clough and Paisley, they rarely come through probably down to a myriad of societal reasons and how different other large European nations are to England and it's lack of technical aspects in the working class player/coach game.

 

[SirReginald]

David Moyes set British coaches back by 20 years

While all other points raised are valid. I think this is something that’ll sit in the backs of clubs minds.

Moyes was always seen as being the best British manager available at the time or at least had the most experience in being largely successful for the club he was at. Yet some players have spoken about Man Utd players feeling bigger than the manager because he hadn’t one anything.

So Arsenal or Spurs get in Dyche. About the level they’re at. Same thing would probably happen. Not to mention Moyes did not play “attractive” football and tended to go route 1 to Fellaini didn’t help either.

 

[el_loco_bielsa]

Because there is a potent strain of anti-intellectualism which runs through the core of footballing culture in this country.

The tacticians with brains went off to play, coach, and strategise in different sports - formula 1, cycling, tennis, rugby, cricket - whilst football was left with all the brawn.

It’s why Graeme le Saux was mocked as being gay for reading the guardian and hodgson drew derision for mentioning in interest in Zweig and Joseph Roth’s novels. It’s not and has never been the done thing in football to point out that you might find a book to be something of interest.

It’s the main reason why we’ve had such a paucity of tacticians, tactical thinking, theorising, developing schools of thought in football.

Why do you need tactics when you can just train boys to bulk up, run fast, tackle hard, lump the ball, do Roy of the rovers type individualistic stuff instead of thinking about how to maximise the potential of 11 men playing as a collective?

Fortunately that is changing due to the globalisation of the English game since the advent of the premiership and the influx of foreign coaches. We’ve still got a way to go towards developing our own thinkers though.

 

[FootballHQ]

Venables was up there as a good tactician IMO- albeit not cutting edge.

In 80s you had him at Barca, Toshack at Real Madrid and Howard Kendall was also at Bilbao for a season. And a few more English/british managers lower down foreign leagues. Than early to mid 90s Sir Bobby Robson had good success at PSV and in Portugal and also did fine at Barca considering their standard weren't as high as today and he was also following Cruyff so bit like having to follow SAF.

Nowadays no British coach bar Brendan Rodgers would even get on the shortlist of a major euro team imo. Few factors, lack of language skills to come in and hit it off immediately (pretty sure Tuchel was fluent in French when he took over at PSG for example). High profile recent failures like Moyes and Neville that have put La Liga teams off at least. No idea who was last Brit to manage in Serie A, Platt at Sampdoria?! That lasted about 5 games as he wasn't even qualified IIRC. Add in lazy nature of tactics in this country which isn't that big a thing still compared to how its scrutinised in Italy and Spain and so inflexible and easy to defend against teams once you get to top level are produced.

I do think there are managers who could do o.k at mid range european teams if given the chance in the future. Rodgers for sure could manage top 6 team in another country and likes of Howe, Dean Smith and Graham Potter could do alright with the football their teams produce. Big issue I have with Smith here is he's just too slow to make tweaks and changes in second halves when we start to lose dominance of the game and so we just have to sit back and defend for 15-20 minutes. Too much just relying on the first 11 out there and hoping they'll solve it. In recent times the europa league final and euros final from other week perfect examples, Mancini made a radical change on 55 minutes to save the game and Southgate completely failed to respond and not for the first time in a major match so that's the difference.

One question I'd actually pose, how would Alex Ferguson have done abroad if he'd been tempted away in late 90s/early 2000s? Got Man. United like no one else since Busby which made vast majority of players play above 100% and see him as father figure, would that have worked at other major european clubs or would having to say it in another language hinder it? Think he admitted he wasn't the greatest tactician himself so that might've been another thing exposed and he rightly concluded Man. United was simply the perfect club for his style of management although he did very well to adapt with different generations of players. Brian Clough managing abroad would've been hugely interesting aswell but suspect he'd have run into same issues.

 

[FootballHQ]

Didn’t Rio think Hoddle was a masterful coach?

Trouble is Hoddle has really lived on his England spell. Since he left that in 1999 he did alright at Southampton, flopped in his Spurs homecoming and then was useless at Wolves when they were spending big to try to get back up to premier league. So from those clubs no real indication he'd have been an amazing manager abroad, did he even learn French for when he played at Monaco?

 

[FootballHQ]

Clough did wonders at Forest.
And lets not forget Paisley, he was an amazing manager for the vermin.
Are we only classing coaches as world class if they win the champions league?

Nah too high a bar. But Emery was laughed out of Arsenal at the end so good gauge would be....could any British manager appointed last summer achieved what he did at Villareal? 7th and europa cup win. Given Moyes was at Real Sociedad a few years back....they've also for last two years finished top 6 in La Liga and won Copa Del Rey so again could any Brit do that? Neville disaster at Valencia suggests not and that's what is putting teams off.

It will be a very very very long time before we see someone from these shores manage Real Madrid or Barca again or one of the big ones in Italy. Mind you Hodgson did manage Inter in mid 90s and they appointed Frank De Boer a few years back so never know...

 

[Eplel]

It's mostly due to the over-appreciation of the "physical game". Most managers have to resort to a system that values speed, durability and toughness, over technical skill, smart formation and movement. A lot of teams historically go overboard with this (QPR for example), forcing everyone else along with them, and England ended up being 10-15 years behind when it comes to top managers, with a few exceptions of course.

 

[Rajiztar]

For me tactics is easy and understood the best tacticians and their method of play is easy too with overwhelming videos nowadays. Then why should English tacticians look inferior to others.

For me football tacticians should have the ability to make players to play the way they want them to play.

What make saf pep Klopp flick prime Jose ancelotti to set them apart from their counterparts are their ability to make players the way they wanted to play from training ground to actual football matches.

Nobody would have convinced me three years ago liverpool will win cl or pl in next two seasons. He improved the belief in squad they could win anyone and repeatedly proved his way of playing worked and players just followed him and won those titles.

Jose lost the dressing room recent times in his managerial career so he failed miserably. I am not convinced yet as he is outdated as manager.

For all new managers they start to win quickly always important. If they not able to win matches it will become harder to convince players to play according to their game plan.

Tuchel said after few games at chelsea it will be always helpful to convince players if winning rather than losing games after games.

Potter, howe both looked like very good managers. Hope they will get better jobs sooner to prove themselves. I am not giving up on Lampard either. He will come back strong too in my opinion.

 

[giorno]

England's produced plenty of great tactical minds - it's just that those great tactical minds tended to think outside the box, and so were pushed out of england, because there is nothing the english love more than tradition

Personally i think it's a failure of english football that spurs went a month searching for a manager and never once thought of Wilder or Potter. This current trend is a remnant of the post heysel, when english football fell massively behind and it took a frenchman from alsatia to bring it into the modern age. At which point, everybody kind of copied arsenal(with the exception of United, whose manager was great, winning, and smart enough to just evolve himself)

There's a number of perfectly capable english managers around right now, they're just not getting chances at top clubs because those clubs are too rich and too powerful to be dislodged from their perch, and when they need a new manager, they can just go and pick up a recent CL winner, a far easier hiring to make than bet on someone like Potter

 

[Forevergiggs1]

David Moyes set British coaches back by 20 years

Dos, tres, cuatro times.

 

[tjb]

1. Not being given the opportunity to succeed at the very top
2. A fethishisation with continental managers in the Premier League (see point 1)
3. Lack of international opportunities - English clubs will happily hire managers from abroad but you rarely see English managers being hired by clubs on the continent
4. Lack of English players plying their trade outside of the English leagues, limiting their exposure to different tactical approaches
5. Language - compounds points 3 and 4. How many English players/managers speak multiple languages? Compare that that to Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Spanish and German players who often speak multiple languages. I think it has an impact on clubs on the continent looking at English players.

If you consider British managers.
The names Busby, Ferguson, Shankley, Paisley, Stein and Clough would sit nicely amongst any of the top European managers and collectively have probably achieved more than any other European manager collection.

That would be interesting to see, which country ranks highest in terms of European Cup winning managers, I would bet Britain is close, if not at the top.

I call nonsense on that. Why have Scottish managers been successful then? Truth is, the portuguese and french managers don't have the liberty of having renowned teams so face a lot more difficulty in proving they can coach. English managers have that platform and have consistently failed to showcase the requisite skills needed for top teams to give them a look. Its their job to learn different languages, its their job to ingratiate themselves with their boards and players, its their job to advertise for both local and foreign opportunities. Further to this, Premier League seek those managers out because the English managers that do ply their trade in the league have shown little imagination in their tactics. Even when 442 was king, managers like Fergie used to use it with specific tenets that allowed it to be succesful. Eg. in Cantona's team, he dropped a bit deeper to connect with the midfield. In the treble team, Giggs and Beckham were more in like with Scholes and actually provided possession support rather than simply spreading wide. In that same era, there were managers that simply stuck any two strikers they had together in the name of having a 442. In what world does playing Owen with Shearer for example, make sense.

 

[Cheimoon]

1. Not being given the opportunity to succeed at the very top
2. A fethishisation with continental managers in the Premier League (see point 1)
3. Lack of international opportunities - English clubs will happily hire managers from abroad but you rarely see English managers being hired by clubs on the continent
4. Lack of English players plying their trade outside of the English leagues, limiting their exposure to different tactical approaches
5. Language - compounds points 3 and 4. How many English players/managers speak multiple languages? Compare that that to Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Spanish and German players who often speak multiple languages. I think it has an impact on clubs on the continent looking at English players.

I don't think this is very convincing or explains much.

• #1 is an observation, not an explanation - and indeed the starting point of the thread, which asked why this situation exists.
• #2 suggests it's just lazy thinking, but I don't buy that. Why would that be the case, while there is also this 'unsure until proven in the EPL' narrative?
• #3 is just not true. There are plenty of opportunities abroad. The issue rather seems to be that English managers aren't interested in them. I am not sure why but possibly partly because few do that and so there is little precedent; and possibly because the Championship and League One are still at a fairly high level, well paid, and popular, so there is less incentive to go elsewhere.
• #4 is similar to #3, but I don't know why it matters here - especially since English players have been exposed to different styles in the EPL since the 90s now.
• #5 to me seems nonsense. Lots of players speak English and many clubs have international squads, so language skills aren't a big issue for anglophone managets. Plus, if they are, then why do managers from other countries coach outside their own country (and not in England)? Also, there is no strong tradition of learning foreign languages outside a few countries (Benelux, Scandinavia, Finland), so England isn't at a relative disadvantage there.

 

[Suedesi]

I find it bizarre that the greatest club competition in the world has no English managers / head coaches at all.

The CL teams this season are managed by Germans, Italians, French, Spaniards, Portugeezers, Dutch, Russians, Ukrainians, Argentinians, even Americans (plural), but no Englishmen.

We can go back a few years and I can't think of many Englishmen playing their trade at the highest club competition in the world (Fat Frank? who else?)

What a sad indictment to the lack of tactical minds in the country.

 

[golden_blunder]

The likes of Potter and other young coaches are around but most teams in the PL recycle the same names when a position becomes available

 

[Mickson]

You just have to look at dinosaurs here, patterns of play don't exist, seem to be something British people say a lot. I do think there are some up-and-coming managers with a tactical nouse, and a drive to learn and develop. Graham Potter (although not that young but still), Russell Martin, Scott Parker for example. I think it's coming but England is a little late to the ball.

 

[do.ob]

Looking in from the outside it just seems like English football culture is a bit simple, reactionary and full of itself.
I think this became especially clear in Pep's first season. The way everything seems to begin and end with the number of trophies someone has won and a certain disregard for style and vision, in the sense that coaches can get away with relying on their expensive players bailing them out with individual moments.
It's not like public discourse happens on an academic level in other countries, but maybe they are more open to ideas from abroad and more demanding of their coaches.

 

[11101]

It takes 20 odd years for a player to filter through to being a manager. Think what English players were like 20 years ago. Boot it long to the big man isn't a particularly successful tactic these days and they had very little exposure to anything else as players, so they don't have a great understanding of anything else now either.

Give it another 10 or so years and we should see some good English managers coming through. There are supposed to be some good coaches around now but they need more time to make it to the top jobs.

 

[The Boy]

The likes of Potter and other young coaches are around but most teams in the PL recycle the same names when a position becomes available

I agree with this, the amount of teams that have gone for Bruce, Big Sam, Mark Hughes (obvs Welsh) or Hodgson etc because they are premier league proven is shameful, I think there's been a real lack of imagination on the part of chairmen and boards because they are so scared of failure.

I love the fact that Brighton has often gambled with young upcoming managers under Tony Bloom, with Poyet and Potter just two examples, it doesn't always work out though as Sami Hyypia demonstrated, but more often than not it's worked out for us.

I do think it is beginning to change, Viera at Palace for example or Frank at Brentford, but the cost of relegation is a massive fear factor and really encourages boards to go with perceived safe and boring options.

 

[FootballHQ]

Saw my post above and forgot to mention one other thing (it won't be another essay this time I promise).

Foreign ownership.

When you have ownership that isn't local they're more likely to scour continent for latest up and coming manager or already established one. Even likes of Real Madrid and Barca in last 20 years have appointed more local managers than premier league top clubs.

Abramovich only appointed one British manager in his 20 years and that was obviously one of his favourite players. Man. United not going back to that option in a hurry after Moyes. Liverpool owners did give Rodgers a chance so perhaps they'll go for domestic option post Klopp so likes of Potter might be in the frame. Inevitably Gerrard will get it one day.

One to watch might be Manchester City actually. I've read it a few times in the past their owners and Tixi rate Brendan Rodgers very highly and apparently he was one of the options if Pep hadn't decided to come so given he's done well at Leicester that would be interesting option if he leaves in next year or two.

There's certainly a blockage at top end of premier league compared to other euro leagues that still give good chances to local coaches. Sevilla usually appoint Spanish coaches, same for Villareal and while Valencia have underachieved lately they're still a massive club in Spain and gave Bordalas a shot after some great work at Getafe.

In Italy Pioli been kept on at AC Milan despite not winning much in his career. They also have Giampaolo a few years back who was total disaster. And Bayern given Flick and Nagalsmann chances.

 

[FootballHQ]

I agree with this, the amount of teams that have gone for Bruce, Big Sam, Mark Hughes (obvs Welsh) or Hodgson etc because they are premier league proven is shameful, I think there's been a real lack of imagination on the part of chairmen and boards because they are so scared of failure.

I love the fact that Brighton has often gambled with young upcoming managers under Tony Bloom, with Poyet and Potter just two examples, it doesn't always work out though as Sami Hyypia demonstrated, but more often than not it's worked out for us.

I do think it is beginning to change, Viera at Palace for example or Frank at Brentford, but the cost of relegation is a massive fear factor and really encourages boards to go with perceived safe and boring options.

These are only clubs that want to stay up though. Think point is more top end of the game. Chelsea appointing one British manager in 20 years of Abramovich reign says it all. When they appointed likes of Big Phil, AVB, Sarri etc there were probably some decent domestic options around.

Is appointing Big Sam any more lazy than Man. United appointing Van Gaal for example?

 

[tomaldinho1]

The likes of Potter and other young coaches are around but most teams in the PL recycle the same names when a position becomes available

Aside from the obvious language issue (many European coaches learn English whereas very few English coaches learn a major European language). Potter is the perfect example of how fecked the system is to be honest. Went abroad, did amazingly in Sweden (three promotions, cup win, even got through to KO in EL with a proper minnow team) but because he is not an ex-player (Ole, Lampard, Arteta etc.) from a big club he went to Swansea, then got poached by Brighton.

Contrast that to Arteta - zero experience - straight into an underperforming but big club, essentially got the job off the back of being assistant to Pep. Lampard had a decent spell in the Championship but instead of going somewhere like Brighton he also goes straight into a big CL club, Ole went to Cardiff (which in isolation makes more sense when you look at Potter's trajectory albeit he went straight into the PL not Championship as Potter did) but somehow that enhanced Ole's reputation and he returned to Molde, won nothing in his 2nd stint but then goes straight into United. Eddie Howe is another English one - look at his promotions and performance with B'mouth, now his stock seems lower than ever yet he's had more games in management than any of the above three and probably the 'best' career overall when you put it into context.

In truth, all clubs talk a good game about 'attacking football' but the reality is from top to bottom you can count on one hand managers who are hired and actually play offensive football (Bielsa at the extreme end, Pep & Klopp) then you have guys like Lage, Potter, Frank who look like they are trying to play offensively but obviously have a quality/depth issue. The rest broadly fit into an attack against weaker teams/counter against equal or stronger teams approach with many now adding pressing to their arsenal and then, right at the bottom of the defensive pile, lonesome Nuno. If a club's default stance is risk mitigation and wanting a manager who is going to provide stability and isn't a risk taker, it's no wonder we've seen guys like Benitez, Moyes, Bruce, Nuno move between PL clubs because you know what you're getting and as an owner you avoid any shocks.

 

[do.ob]

These are only clubs that want to stay up though. Think point is more top end of the game. Chelsea appointing one British manager in 20 years of Abramovich reign says it all. When they appointed likes of Big Phil, AVB, Sarri etc there were probably some decent domestic options around.

Is appointing Big Sam any more lazy than Man. United appointing Van Gaal for example?

Wanting to stay up doesn't mean you have to go for a Dinosaur though. For example the coaching careers of Klopp, Tuchel and Nagelsmann all took off when small clubs in critical situations put their trust in them. There is obviously value in experience, but being one step ahead of the competition tactically can be much more valuable.

 

[André Dominguez]

Aside from the obvious language issue (many European coaches learn English whereas very few English coaches learn a major European language). Potter is the perfect example of how fecked the system is to be honest. Went abroad, did amazingly in Sweden (three promotions, cup win, even got through to KO in EL with a proper minnow team) but because he is not an ex-player (Ole, Lampard, Arteta etc.) from a big club he went to Swansea, then got poached by Brighton.

Contrast that to Arteta - zero experience - straight into an underperforming but big club, essentially got the job off the back of being assistant to Pep. Lampard had a decent spell in the Championship but instead of going somewhere like Brighton he also goes straight into a big CL club, Ole went to Cardiff (which in isolation makes more sense when you look at Potter's trajectory albeit he went straight into the PL not Championship as Potter did) but somehow that enhanced Ole's reputation and he returned to Molde, won nothing in his 2nd stint but then goes straight into United. Eddie Howe is another English one - look at his promotions and performance with B'mouth, now his stock seems lower than ever yet he's had more games in management than any of the above three and probably the 'best' career overall when you put it into context.

In truth, all clubs talk a good game about 'attacking football' but the reality is from top to bottom you can count on one hand managers who are hired and actually play offensive football (Bielsa at the extreme end, Pep & Klopp) then you have guys like Lage, Potter, Frank who look like they are trying to play offensively but obviously have a quality/depth issue. The rest broadly fit into an attack against weaker teams/counter against equal or stronger teams approach with many now adding pressing to their arsenal and then, right at the bottom of the defensive pile, lonesome Nuno. If a club's default stance is risk mitigation and wanting a manager who is going to provide stability and isn't a risk taker, it's no wonder we've seen guys like Benitez, Moyes, Bruce, Nuno move between PL clubs because you know what you're getting and as an owner you avoid any shocks.

Happens in many countries: Vitor Pereira (who is now managing Fenerbahce at Turkey) never got a second chance at a top club at Portugal, despite being a brilliant manager, even though he is very stubborn on playing his way or no way, though.

 

[The Corinthian]

World class Scottish managers should be in the OP.

Busby, Ferguson, Stein, Shankly, Dalglish, Graham

 

[tomaldinho1]

Happens in many countries: Vitor Pereira (who is now managing Fenerbahce at Turkey) never got a second chance at a top club at Portugal, despite being a brilliant manager, even though he is very stubborn on playing his way or no way, though.

I guess difference with Portuguese coaches is Jose, AVB, Nuno, Lage etc. all have got big jobs in the PL and all learned English. Maybe Nuno is an outlier as I think he brought Wolves up from the Championship. Now name me the English managers in Liga NOS, Serie A, LL etc.

 

[stefan92]

Wanting to stay up doesn't mean you have to go for a Dinosaur though. For example the coaching careers of Klopp, Tuchel and Nagelsmann all took off when small clubs in critical situations put their trust in them. There is obviously value in experience, but being one step ahead of the competition tactically can be much more valuable.

Also it means you can start your career. The mentioned coaches did get a shot at coaching small Bundesliga teams after coaching their youth (Nagelsmann, Tuchel) or directly stepping up from being a player (Klopp). And then big clubs went for them.

Small clubs always recycling the same names means there is no way to establish yourself in a league. That's why DoF like Heidel are absolutely crucial for the football culture of a country (he made Klopp and Tuchel Bundesliga coaches for Mainz, currently Bo Svensson seems a great talent who managed the biggest comeback ever after half a season was played)

 

[André Dominguez]

I guess difference with Portuguese coaches is Jose, AVB, Nuno, Lage etc. all have got big jobs in the PL and all learned English. Maybe Nuno is an outlier as I think he brought Wolves up from the Championship. Now name me the English managers in Liga NOS, Serie A, LL etc.

Bobby Robson was the last sucessful name I can remember here in PT. How many english managers would actually trade managing a small Serie A/La Liga/Ligue 1/ Liga BPI side for even League One/SPL football? They can also send an email to the club saying they're interested in the place. I remember Rodgers had offers from Spain but preferred to continue at Celtic.

Here at Benfica / Porto / Sporting we had managers from several nationalities: dutch, ex-jugoslavian, spanish, italians, british (Toschack, Robson, Souness), brasilians, etc. Moyes actually coached in Spain and McLaren won a dutch league and managed Wolfsburg.