Eredivisie 2020-21

LovelyLittlePanda

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If you can name a nationality where the opposite is true, I'll give you a life time supply of gold stars.
Probably been disappointed too many times by overhyped Dutch/Eredivisie players. D'you reckon he bought into the Clasie hype?
 

KirkDuyt

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Probably been disappointed too many times by overhyped Dutch/Eredivisie players. D'you reckon he bought into the Clasie hype?
Hahaha, Clasie, I can't believe a premier league side bought him.

Maybe they can buy Toornstra next. Though I'm a big fan of Jens, mind.
 

Lay

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I'd play him instead of Antony in a heartbeat. But different strokes eh.

Also, being good at Utrecht and being good at Feyenoord is hardly the same thing.

Haller was also good at Utrecht by the way.
Isn’t Antony meant to be an amazing talent?
 

LovelyLittlePanda

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Isn’t Antony meant to be an amazing talent?
He's talented, but inconsistent and goes invisible a lot. Right now, you'd always play the Feyenoord cnut in a must-win situation.

Also everyone in the Eredivisie is an amazing talent. Stop questioning our business model.
 

KirkDuyt

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He's talented, but inconsistent and goes invisible a lot. Right now, you'd always play the Feyenoord cnut in a must-win situation.

Also everyone in the Eredivisie is an amazing talent. Stop questioning our business model.
:lol:

Someone promote this guy, we need more Feyenoord people in here. We're red too you know.
 

KirkDuyt

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Robben finally made an appearance again for Groningen after being out for like 5 months. Where he gets the motivation to keep coming back is amazing. Especially since it's for a side which will never win anything.

Still looks as happy to be on the pitch as a 16 yr old making his debut. My hero.
 

Cheimoon

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Robben finally made an appearance again for Groningen after being out for like 5 months. Where he gets the motivation to keep coming back is amazing. Especially since it's for a side which will never win anything.

Still looks as happy to be on the pitch as a 16 yr old making his debut. My hero.
Would be nice if he helped Groningen get EL playoffs qualification. Is he planning to continue next year?

Also, you should ask for your username to be changed to RrjenAobben.
 

KirkDuyt

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Would be nice if he helped Groningen get EL playoffs qualification. Is he planning to continue next year?

Also, you should ask for your username to be changed to RrjenAobben.
:lol:
 

Cheimoon

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Ajax beat Vitesse 2-1 in the cup final today. (There is only one cup in the Netherlands.) They got the winner in injury time after a late Vitesse red card, but apparently it was deserved given the match as a whole.

I can't really get myself to like Vitesse: too much drama since the 90s or so and I'm not really allowed to, having studied in Nijmegen (not that I have much affinity with NEC though). But I'd basically prefer anyone over Ajax, given the hold they are building over Dutch football, and how that's only likely to increase now they've started to spend their money on salaries to keep key players and on adding some established players to their squad. I worry they'll become the Bayern of the Eredivisie (which they've never really been). I guess the hope against that would be that they mess up the Ten Hag replacement after his departure (which I'd expect this or next summer; Bayern if they can't get Nagelsmann?), PSV catch up (who just raised a lot of additional money and now need to get their act together), and/or Feyenoord or AZ are consistent enough over a full season.
 

BrilliantOrange

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Ajax beat Vitesse 2-1 in the cup final today. (There is only one cup in the Netherlands.) They got the winner in injury time after a late Vitesse red card, but apparently it was deserved given the match as a whole.

I can't really get myself to like Vitesse: too much drama since the 90s or so and I'm not really allowed to, having studied in Nijmegen (not that I have much affinity with NEC though). But I'd basically prefer anyone over Ajax, given the hold they are building over Dutch football, and how that's only likely to increase now they've started to spend their money on salaries to keep key players and on adding some established players to their squad. I worry they'll become the Bayern of the Eredivisie (which they've never really been). I guess the hope against that would be that they mess up the Ten Hag replacement after his departure (which I'd expect this or next summer; Bayern if they can't get Nagelsmann?), PSV catch up (who just raised a lot of additional money and now need to get their act together), and/or Feyenoord or AZ are consistent enough over a full season.
There is a lot of this going on, but I really - ok, Im an Ajax fan but Im also very much in favor of a strong competitive Eredivisie overall - thing this worry is a bit exaggerated.

The major difference is that for good players Ajax and the Eredivisie isnt their end-goal, unlike Bayern in the Bundeslige. Bayern can consistently outplay their competition because they can almost always keep their top-players at the club (Robben, Muller, Ribery, Lewa, Kimmich, Neuer etc etc). This allows them to build further on a team. For Ajax its very different. Just like any other Dutch club, we will lose our best players when they start to thrive, which means you need to start rebuilding after basically every good year. And yes ofcourse there is then a big budget to get replacements, but incoming transfers will always remain a hit and miss.. And even the hits wont always be immediate hits and might need time to adjust...

So ofcourse the financial situation favors Ajax, but because of the level of the Eredivisie (and still the gap in finance with top-tier Europe) key players will continue to leave Ajax on yearly basis. This makes the Bayern worry/comparison very exaggerated if you ask me...
 

KirkDuyt

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There is a lot of this going on, but I really - ok, Im an Ajax fan but Im also very much in favor of a strong competitive Eredivisie overall - thing this worry is a bit exaggerated.

The major difference is that for good players Ajax and the Eredivisie isnt their end-goal, unlike Bayern in the Bundeslige. Bayern can consistently outplay their competition because they can almost always keep their top-players at the club (Robben, Muller, Ribery, Lewa, Kimmich, Neuer etc etc). This allows them to build further on a team. For Ajax its very different. Just like any other Dutch club, we will lose our best players when they start to thrive, which means you need to start rebuilding after basically every good year. And yes ofcourse there is then a big budget to get replacements, but incoming transfers will always remain a hit and miss.. And even the hits wont always be immediate hits and might need time to adjust...

So ofcourse the financial situation favors Ajax, but because of the level of the Eredivisie (and still the gap in finance with top-tier Europe) key players will continue to leave Ajax on yearly basis. This makes the Bayern worry/comparison very exaggerated if you ask me...
Yeah, this an accurate assessment if you ask me. Ajax has always been the biggest club in The Netherlands, usually followed by PSV who outperform Ajax here and there, but usually have to be content to be number 2. However, the gap will never be insurmountable, because of the league we play in. Ajax will forever be hamstrung by our shit league. Honestly, the only way for them to really become the Bayern of the Netherlands is ironically if they join an international league :)
 

Cheimoon

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I don't disagree, but the wealth gap between Ajax and the rest is growing, and Ajax is starting to use that now in a way it didn't before. They used to rely more on youth and buying promising young players, which I think is more hit and miss than there new approach to also buy some established players, like they did with Tadic, Blind, and Haller. Even PSV won't be able to keep up with that, and everyone else is further behind. I don't think Ajax will become quite as far off the rest as Bayern in the BL right now, but I do think the gap is widening. Hope you're right and I'm exaggerating though.
 

KirkDuyt

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I don't disagree, but the wealth gap between Ajax and the rest is growing, and Ajax is starting to use that now in a way it didn't before. They used to rely more on youth and buying promising young players, which I think is more hit and miss than there new approach to also buy some established players, like they did with Tadic, Blind, and Haller. Even PSV won't be able to keep up with that, and everyone else is further behind. I don't think Ajax will become quite as far off the rest as Bayern in the BL right now, but I do think the gap is widening. Hope you're right and I'm exaggerating though.
Which they also financed by selling the likes of De Ligt, De Jong, Ziyech and Vd Beek for huge sums of money. Ajax are great at growing young players, but a De Ligt or De Jong isn't common and unless they can somehow consistently produce this kind of talent the money isn't a consistent guarantee, because even if Ajax can buy Tadic, Blind and Haller, the gap to Europe's elite is humongous and Ajax are currently still at a stage where getting through the CL group stage is quite a big achievement.

Either way I ofcourse also hope it isn't through due to my affiliation, but it wouldn't surprise me if at least PSV can keep up a little bit. They just have to fire the silly German.
 

Cheimoon

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Which they also financed by selling the likes of De Ligt, De Jong, Ziyech and Vd Beek for huge sums of money. Ajax are great at growing young players, but a De Ligt or De Jong isn't common and unless they can somehow consistently produce this kind of talent the money isn't a consistent guarantee, because even if Ajax can buy Tadic, Blind and Haller, the gap to Europe's elite is humongous and Ajax are currently still at a stage where getting through the CL group stage is quite a big achievement.

Either way I ofcourse also hope it isn't through due to my affiliation, but it wouldn't surprise me if at least PSV can keep up a little bit. They just have to fire the silly German.
Yeah, true - they're jeopardizing their main source of revenue by buying established player and making the path into the first team more difficult.
 

Cheimoon

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I also wanted to bring up Willy van der Kuijlen here, who died aged 74 this week. He's a PSV legend who the all-time top scorer of the Eredivisie with 308 goals in 528 matches - an insane number that will likely never be equalled. (Shearer is top at 260 for the EPL, but Gerd Müller even tops Van der Kuijlen with 365 in the Bundesliga.) He is probably less known internationally because he barely featured for the Dutch national team - mostly because he didn't get along with Ajax players (he didn't like Amsterdammers, he said), and opted out early. Here is an article in English that I found (link):

The Eredivisie’s all-time record goalscorer, Willy van der Kuijlen, has died at the age of 74, his former club PSV Eindhoven has announced.

Van der Kuijlen played for the Eindhoven club for 18 seasons between 1964 and 1981, scoring 308 times in 528 matches. He also scored three league goals for his only other professional club, MVV Maastricht.

Born in Helmond, Van der Kuijlen caught the eye of PSV’s scouts while playing for his home town amateur club HVV. He signed professional terms as a 17-year-old and stayed loyal to PSV throughout his career, rejecting offers from clubs including Real Madrid.

In a statement on its website, the club said: ‘As a two-footed player he will always be remembered for his technical skills, but above all for his goal-scoring prowess. Willy van der Kuijlen is and will be Mister PSV, forever.’

Van der Kuijlen’s international career was limited to 22 caps and seven goals, partly because of a difficult relationship with his contemporary, Johan Cruyff. Despite being Eredivisie top scorer three times he was not included in the squads for the 1974 and 1978 World Cup tournaments.

At PSV he won three league titles, two Dutch cups and the UEFA Cup in 1978. A statue in his honour was erected outside the Phillips Stadium in 2004.
 

KirkDuyt

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I also wanted to bring up Willy van der Kuijlen here, who died aged 74 this week. He's a PSV legend who the all-time top scorer of the Eredivisie with 308 goals in 528 matches - an insane number that will likely never be equalled. (Shearer is top at 260 for the EPL, but Gerd Müller even tops Van der Kuijlen with 365 in the Bundesliga.) He is probably less known internationally because he barely featured for the Dutch national team - mostly because he didn't get along with Ajax players (he didn't like Amsterdammers, he said), and opted out early. Here is an article in English that I found (link):
Yeah, him and Jan van Beveren were bullied out by the Ajax and Feyenoord contingent, they didnt like Brabanders and PSV specifically.
 

Cheimoon

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It's Feyenoord - Ajax tomorrow, and the past days, two firework bombs have gone off at Feyenoord bars in Rotterdam, and last night one at an Ajax bar in Amsterdam as well. Feyenoord fans also attacked the police when they were checking fans for fireworks when they were visiting their team's final pre-match training.

They're a lovely bunch enjoying a healthy rivalry. Not.

Ajax won the title last weekend btw, while Feyenoord is in slump right now. I suppose ate least they can try and win the fan battle... (Not that either side will ever look good in this. It's been toxic shit from both sides since forever.)
 

KirkDuyt

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It's Feyenoord - Ajax tomorrow, and the past days, two firework bombs have gone off at Feyenoord bars in Rotterdam, and last night one at an Ajax bar in Amsterdam as well. Feyenoord fans also attacked the police when they were checking fans for fireworks when they were visiting their team's final pre-match training.

They're a lovely bunch enjoying a healthy rivalry. Not.

Ajax won the title last weekend btw, while Feyenoord is in slump right now. I suppose ate least they can try and win the fan battle... (Not that either side will ever look good in this. It's been toxic shit from both sides since forever.)
Yeah, fantastic isnt it. I can't wait until my son is older so we can go vandalize stuff and beat up police officers together.
 

Cheimoon

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Yeah, fantastic isnt it. I can't wait until my son is older so we can go vandalize stuff and beat up police officers together.
Spoken like a true Feyenoorder! ;)

It's sad how hooliganism hasn't really disappeared in the Netherlands. I think it's mostly Ajax-Feyenoord now though - although De Graafschap fans just attacked journalists, and it's just luck that Vitesse and NEC aren't in the same league now.
 

KirkDuyt

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Spoken like a true Feyenoorder! ;)

It's sad how hooliganism hasn't really disappeared in the Netherlands. I think it's mostly Ajax-Feyenoord now though - although De Graafschap fans just attacked journalists, and it's just luck that Vitesse and NEC aren't in the same league now.
Yeah, it's a shame. Though Feyenoord and Ajax is the most violent rivalry, Den Haag also has a core of scum as do the psv fans with their pro zwarte piet protests last year.

The attacking journalists is also an effect of the wider trend among some movements to dub journalists the enemy of the people I think.
 

Cheimoon

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Yeah, it's a shame. Though Feyenoord and Ajax is the most violent rivalry, Den Haag also has a core of scum as do the psv fans with their pro zwarte piet protests last year.

The attacking journalists is also an effect of the wider trend among some movements to dub journalists the enemy of the people I think.
Yeah, that journalist thing might be separate, I was thinking about the COVID-19 context as well. But as you say, more generally, Dutch supporter groups tend to not really showcase the best of humanity.
 

KirkDuyt

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Old man Robben showing he still got it with 2 nice assists. Which he celebrated about as happily as his CL final winner. Endearing to see really.
 

Blackwidow

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Old man Robben showing he still got it with 2 nice assists. Which he celebrated about as happily as his CL final winner. Endearing to see really.
He nearly cried in the interview after the match. Does somebody have videos/gifs of the goals?
 

GhastlyHun

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Old man Robben showing he still got it with 2 nice assists. Which he celebrated about as happily as his CL final winner. Endearing to see really.
He's come back once again, the madman. Really touching to see how much it still means to him to get on the pitch and put in a good performance after all he's won in his career.
 

KirkDuyt

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He's come back once again, the madman. Really touching to see how much it still means to him to get on the pitch and put in a good performance after all he's won in his career.
Pundits are clamoring to select him for the Euro's now. Painfully, I think he's still easily as good as the alternatives seeing the likes of Stengs, Babel and Promes beibg some of the contenders.
 

Cheimoon

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Pundits are clamoring to select him for the Euro's now. Painfully, I think he's still easily as good as the alternatives seeing the likes of Stengs, Babel and Promes beibg some of the contenders.
He has even said now that he's available if they want him!
 

BlackShark_80

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Ajax will melt the league trophy and give 42,000 pieces to each season ticket holder as a thank you for their support this season.
 
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Cloud7

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Ajax will melt the league trophy and give 42,000 pieces to each season ticket holder as a thank you for their support this season.
This is a cool idea. I like it.

In before others come in and call it cringey
 

BrilliantOrange

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Below the Team of the Year according to Voetbal International, a serious quality Dutch media platform. Its based on the highest average rating per game per position over the whole season, with a minimum of matches played over the year.

Remko Pasveer - Vitesse

Denzel Dumfries - PSV
Richedly Bazoer - Vitesse (#1 poty)
Daley Blind - Ajax
Owen Wijndal - AZ (#3 poty)

Ryan Gravenberch - Ajax
Davy Klaassen - Ajax
Teun Koopmeiners - AZ

Antony - Ajax
Donyell Malen - PSV
Dusan Tadic - Ajax (#2 poty)

Seem there were quite some performing left backs this year. Both Philip Max (PSV) and Nico Tagliafico (Ajax) ended up higher in the ratings than for example Pasveer, Antony and Dumfries, but werent in the team because Owen Wijndal took their spot.

Other players who just didnt make the cut, but ended with high ratings: Perr Schuurs (Ajax), Olivier Boscagli (PSV), Ibrahim Sangare (PSV), Kenneth Paal (PEC Zwolle), Ko Itakura (FC Groningen), Jacob Rasmussen (Vitesse), Jesper Karlsson (AZ), Abdou Harraoui (Sparta), Bruno Martins Indi (AZ), Jordan Teze (PSV).

Players who performed underwhelming compared to their status: Myron Boadu (AZ), Calvin Stengs (AZ), Steven Berghuis (Feyenoord)(deep lows), David Neres (Ajax), Oussama Tannane (Vitesse).

Players who definitely made positive impact, but didnt play enough matched to have an end of year rating: Jurrien Timber (Ajax), Devyne Rensch (Ajax), Cody Gakpo (PSV), Lisandro Martinez (Ajax), Edson Alvarez (Ajax), Andre Onana (Ajax), Mario Gotze (PSV)

URL to the article:
https://www.vi.nl/nieuws/bazoer-blijft-wijndal-en-tadic-voor-en-is-vi-speler-van-het-jaar

 

Cheimoon

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That's not such a bad team. Stick in two of Gakpo, Berghuis, and Stengs for Antony and Tadic, and you could take them to the Euros. I wonder how they'd do there.
 

AjaxCunian

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I think only Frenkie and Wijnaldum would be a huge miss against most teams. Blind and Bazoer would be too weak vs the bigger sides defensively.
 

KirkDuyt

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Below the Team of the Year according to Voetbal International, a serious quality Dutch media platform. Its based on the highest average rating per game per position over the whole season, with a minimum of matches played over the year.

Remko Pasveer - Vitesse

Denzel Dumfries - PSV
Richedly Bazoer - Vitesse (#1 poty)
Daley Blind - Ajax
Owen Wijndal - AZ (#3 poty)

Ryan Gravenberch - Ajax
Davy Klaassen - Ajax
Teun Koopmeiners - AZ

Antony - Ajax
Donyell Malen - PSV
Dusan Tadic - Ajax (#2 poty)

Seem there were quite some performing left backs this year. Both Philip Max (PSV) and Nico Tagliafico (Ajax) ended up higher in the ratings than for example Pasveer, Antony and Dumfries, but werent in the team because Owen Wijndal took their spot.

Other players who just didnt make the cut, but ended with high ratings: Perr Schuurs (Ajax), Olivier Boscagli (PSV), Ibrahim Sangare (PSV), Kenneth Paal (PEC Zwolle), Ko Itakura (FC Groningen), Jacob Rasmussen (Vitesse), Jesper Karlsson (AZ), Abdou Harraoui (Sparta), Bruno Martins Indi (AZ), Jordan Teze (PSV).

Players who performed underwhelming compared to their status: Myron Boadu (AZ), Calvin Stengs (AZ), Steven Berghuis (Feyenoord)(deep lows), David Neres (Ajax), Oussama Tannane (Vitesse).

Players who definitely made positive impact, but didnt play enough matched to have an end of year rating: Jurrien Timber (Ajax), Devyne Rensch (Ajax), Cody Gakpo (PSV), Lisandro Martinez (Ajax), Edson Alvarez (Ajax), Andre Onana (Ajax), Mario Gotze (PSV)

URL to the article:
https://www.vi.nl/nieuws/bazoer-blijft-wijndal-en-tadic-voor-en-is-vi-speler-van-het-jaar

Calling Steven Berghuis performance underwhelming is crazy. He's the 2nd most productive player in the league after Tadic whilst playing for an abominal side. I know it's based on player ratings, but he's much better than Antony. And yes Im biased, same difference.

An even more offensive omission and evidence that a team of the year based on player ratings is rubbish is the lack Giakoumakis. Has there ever been a league topscorer who played for the worst team in the league? That's a monumental achievement. Sure, Malen is probably a better footbal player, but leaving him out is just criminal.

And yes, it's based on ratings I know.
 

BrilliantOrange

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Calling Steven Berghuis performance underwhelming is crazy. He's the 2nd most productive player in the league after Tadic whilst playing for an abominal side. I know it's based on player ratings, but he's much better than Antony. And yes Im biased, same difference.

An even more offensive omission and evidence that a team of the year based on player ratings is rubbish is the lack Giakoumakis. Has there ever been a league topscorer who played for the worst team in the league? That's a monumental achievement. Sure, Malen is probably a better footbal player, but leaving him out is just criminal.

And yes, it's based on ratings I know.
Haha I agree..

I only mention Berghuis as underperforming based on this average ratings.. Feyenoord without Berghuis is shambles and statistically Berghuis was involved with 30 goals this season.. Not sure how come this rating of his is so low..

And I also agree with Giakoumakis.. Scoring 26 goals for VVV is an absolute huge achievement..

I think based on end-of-season impact and the impact on the team/league the both Giakoumakis and Berghuis should be in there in stead of Antony and Malen.

Antony is a great prospect who has shown flashes of brilliance, but both his actual numbers (goals/assists) plus his impact on his team is far below what Berghuis did this year..
 

KirkDuyt

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Haha I agree..

I only mention Berghuis as underperforming based on this average ratings.. Feyenoord without Berghuis is shambles and statistically Berghuis was involved with 30 goals this season.. Not sure how come this rating of his is so low..

And I also agree with Giakoumakis.. Scoring 26 goals for VVV is an absolute huge achievement..

I think based on end-of-season impact and the impact on the team/league the both Giakoumakis and Berghuis should be in there in stead of Antony and Malen.

Antony is a great prospect who has shown flashes of brilliance, but both his actual numbers (goals/assists) plus his impact on his team is far below what Berghuis did this year..
Well it's as you noted. Berghuis has played a few absolute stinkers that drag his average rating down. And he was send of twice.

I wonder if Giakoumakis will ever replicate this season or wheter he will be the new, Afonso Alves / Vlemminckx