Eredivisie 2022/23

Cheimoon

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These threads are starting to pop up, so I'd better be quick before I lose my thread starter status! (And what great use did I make of it last season!)

So, what's happening in the Netherlands? Obviously, Ajax took last year's title, meaning they've qualified directly for the Champions League group stage. Having come second (while they also won the cup), PSV enters it in the third qualifying round. Feyenoord will be in the EL group stage, while Twente and AZ (as European play-offs winners) are entering the qualifying rounds of the Conference League, and will be looking to play a gazillion matches only to be outfoxed by an Italian or Spanish club in the finals. At the bottom, PEC Zwolle, Willem II, and Heracles (as relegation play-offs losers) got relegated to the Eerste Divisie, to be replaced this year by Emmen, Volendam, and Excelsior.

PosTeamPldWDLGFGAGDPtsQualification or relegation
1Ajax (C)3426539819+7983Qualification to Champions League group stage
2PSV Eindhoven3426358642+4481Qualification to Champions League third qualifying round
3Feyenoord3422577634+4271Qualification to Europa League group stage[a]
4Twente3420865537+1868Qualification to Europa Conference League third qualifying round
5AZ (O)3418796444+2061Qualification to European competition play-offs
6Vitesse34156134251−951Qualification to European competition play-offs
7Utrecht341211115146+547Qualification to European competition play-offs
8SC Heerenveen34118153750−1341Qualification to European competition play-offs
9Cambuur34116175370−1739
10RKC Waalwijk34911144051−1138
11NEC34108163852−1438
12Groningen3499164155−1436
13Go Ahead Eagles34106183751−1436
14Sparta Rotterdam34811153048−1835
15Fortuna Sittard34105193667−3135
16Heracles Almelo (R)3497183349−1634Qualification to Relegation play-offs
17Willem II (R)3496193257−2533Relegation to Eerste Divisie
18PEC Zwolle (R)3476212652−2627Relegation to Eerste Divisie

In terms of predictions, everything is up in the air for this year. Ajax obviously lost Ten Hag, and may also be losing all of Mazraoui and Gravenberch (Bayern), Onana (Inter), Haller (Dortmund), Timber, Anthony, Martinez (all to United? why not!), Brobbey, and Ihattaren (end of loan; might be bought or renewed?). The only big name coming in that I've heard about is Bergwijn from Spurs. Some of that remains to be confirmed, Onana wasn't playing anymore anyway, and Ajax always have a great academy and scouting network; but still, that's a lot of quality gone, plus a relative unknown in their new coach, Alfred Schreuder. So let's see how that will play out.

Similarly, PSV lost their coach Roger Schmidt and replaced him with Ruud van Nistelrooij in his first top-flight job. They have also lost Mario Götze (Frankfurt), Bruma (Besiktas), and may be without Zahavi, Sangaré, and Gakpo by the end of the transfer window. In turn, they are signing Walter Benítez from Nice in hopes of geting their first reliable goalkeeper since... Waterreus?, and are looking to bring Luuk de Jong back. Not as wild as Ajax maybe, but all remains to be seen here as well.

Feyenoord then? At least they got continuity at the top with Slot starting his second season, which I think is their greatest asset. I don't know too much about most of their confirmed and rumoured transfers, but certainly Cyriel Dessers returning to Genk will be a big loss for them. And as always, Feyenoord are severely strapped for cash, so they can't sign big names and will probably again have a relatively thin squad. For them to win the league, there would have to be a significant drop in performance from both PSV and Ajax, I think.

If PSV and Ajax do drop off and Feyenoord can't capitalize on it, then we can start looking at the subtop. I expect Twente's season to have been a flash in the pan, so I would rather be looking at AZ and Vitesse for any challenge to the top 3. Vitesse is the Dutch Neverkusen though (and of lesser status; even if they did win the cup in 2017), and even though I rate AZ's coach Pascal Jansen irrationally high, they'd have to make a pretty big step up. On the other hand, part of their issue last year was longer periods where they were losing a lot of points, so if they can reduce that (and again, if the top 3 aren't very consistent), maybe they can be competitive.

That's potentially pretty exciting, and so is the bottom of the league, for those interested. Or maybe it's rather very unexciting, cause it seems to me that there's so much poor quality in the league that literally half its clubs will go into the season worrying that they might be part of the relegation battle. I would expect this to apply for all of Cambuur, Emmen, Excelsior, Fortuna Sittard, Go Ahead Eagles, NEC, RKC, Sparta, and Volendam. (Yep, that makes 9!) If I'd have to bet, I'd put Volendam, Excelsior, and RKC in the bottom spots, but who knows really.

So, what do we think!
 
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do.ob

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How does Eredivisie plan to survive without the star power of Mario Götze?
 

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Ajax might lose Martinez, Timber is definitely staying. Martinez could be replaced by Blind adequately. Wijndal would then likely replace Blind.

Onana, and Haller arent huge losses especially if Brobbey and Bergwijn are signed.

Antony is likely to stay though, can't see anyone paying about 80 million euro's for him. Ajax is not selling him for 40 million pounds, forget about that.

Gravenberch and Mazraoui are huge misses but Taylor/Kudus can well replace the first, Rensch doesnt look up for it to replace Mazraoui. I'd give more chance to Regeer who's very similar in style and qualities.

I think Ajax will be fine.
 

Cheimoon

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How does Eredivisie plan to survive without the star power of Mario Götze?
It's funny, it was such big news when he joined, it was considered a real coup for PSV. And then that fizzled out, and now he's leaving and I don't think it's a considered very important anymore.

Not that he's been a disappointment, but just not a real Eredivisie superstar.
Ajax might lose Martinez, Timber is definitely staying. Martinez could be replaced by Blind adequately. Wijndal would then likely replace Blind.

Onana, and Haller arent huge losses especially if Brobbey and Bergwijn are signed.

Antony is likely to stay though, can't see anyone paying about 80 million euro's for him. Ajax is not selling him for 40 million pounds, forget about that.

Gravenberch and Mazraoui are huge misses but Taylor/Kudus can well replace the first, Rensch doesnt look up for it to replace Mazraoui. I'd give more chance to Regeer who's very similar in style and qualities.

I think Ajax will be fine.
I can see that, but it's a pretty optimistic scenario; it basically assumes the departures aren't as massive and every replacement easily lives up to their potential. I'm not saying that's impossible, but I think there's a bit more risk than that.
 

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Cambuur in a relegation battle? We're going to win the league man! :)
 

AjaxCunian

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It's funny, it was such big news when he joined, it was considered a real coup for PSV. And then that fizzled out, and now he's leaving and I don't think it's a considered very important anymore.

Not that he's been a disappointment, but just not a real Eredivisie superstar.

I can see that, but it's a pretty optimistic scenario; it basically assumes the departures aren't as massive and every replacement easily lives up to their potential. I'm not saying that's impossible, but I think there's a bit more risk than that.
I am not saying Ajax will be equally as good in all positions, but that the squad is rather good enough to compete in Europe and win the league.
 

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Ajax seems to have replaced ten hag well. I would bet on them defending their title successfully. It will be interesting to see what psv will make of their campaign with Ruud at the helm.
 

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Cambuur in a relegation battle? We're going to win the league man! :)
:)

I have to say I was really surprised with Cambuur, Go Ahead, and NEC this year. I just don't see it long-term - I expect them to do an Emmen and be much further down the table next season. How are they doing over the summer?
 

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Tannane to NEC. Wonder how many matches with flashes of brilliance before the inevitable trouble starts
 

Daslogisch

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How does Eredivisie plan to survive without the star power of Mario Götze?
He's going down more like one of the biggest disappointments the Eredivisie has ever seen. But that's also down to PSV's announcement when they signed him as 'the world champion coming to The Netherrlands'. Not saying he was absolute garbage, which he wasn't. But he was underwhelming for the status that he brought with him. For a player with his resume he should have carried PSV, but besides 2 or 3 matches in which he showed his class he was pretty much invisible for the remainder of the time. Players like Gakpo and Madueke had a far bigger influence on the team and last season Sangare as well. PSV won't miss him.

As for the Eredivisie next year, it will be the chance for mainly PSV and Feyenoord to break Ajax' stranglehold. Ajax still has the highest budget, but with a new coach coming in and a lot of player changes, this is where the opportunity for the other teams are. PSV has the advantage that they will keep most of their team and Feyenoord will at least keep their coach (which is their best asset).

In Holland they are fast to say that Ajax is dominating like Bayern is in Germany but that's a total non-comparison because Ajax's financial dominance over the competitors is not nearly the same. Ajax may have the biggest budget, but they are not able to buy the best players from their biggest rival (like Bayern). Moreover, in NL only the champion qualifies for Champions League. If Ajax miss out one time, Ajax may be forced to take a step down on wages and go for a longer term rebuild where that will open the possibility for the team that does qualify to intensify spending. The tables can quickly even out then (I won't say 'turn' because Ajax will be able to keep up for at least a few years even without CL).

Anyhow, I think next year will be very interesting. PSV also has a new coach, but looks likely to keep their team together. Although there is interest for Sangare and Gakpo, I think PSV might be able to hold them for another year. Also for WC purposes (they are guaranteed starters, whereas you never know that after a transfer). If PSV qualify for CL through the qualifying they might be able to get some decent strengthening in the squad. Feyenoord has less financial possibilities, but they have the best coach. If they can get a better team than they had last year, they might really have a chance as I expect Ajax to have a less smooth season. I don't think with the rebuild Ajax will win the league with 85-90 points. I think it's more likely that Ajax will struggle more and end up around 80 points, which leaves possibilities for the others to do better.
 

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Guess @Daslogisch has me on ignore - basically repeating the entire OP and my Götze post. :) At least he/she agrees with me on most points - but well, da's logisch. badum-tish
 

ArjenIsM3

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:)

I have to say I was really surprised with Cambuur, Go Ahead, and NEC this year. I just don't see it long-term - I expect them to do an Emmen and be much further down the table next season. How are they doing over the summer?
Yeah they play entertaining football at least. I must admit I'm not a real fan but I do wish them the best. I grew up in and around Leeuwarden and I've been to games several times but I've also been to Heerenveen a few times due to my grandpa being a fan of theirs and one of my best friends when I was a kid being a season ticket holder. Not recently though. I'm not "anti Fries". I actually like that they sing the Frisian anthem (even though I don't speak Fries, only understand it). But I did not like the ambiance in the Heerenveen stadium much. Too dull. That's better at Cambuur. So I wish them both the best. If I had to choose it would probably be Cambuur though.

Transfer wise I think they've got a promising attacker on loan from Utrecht in Remco Balk and they're also looking at Boussaid. I heard they're looking at Thomas van den Belt from PEC as well. Apart from that I don't know. I believe they're still working on financing the new stadium as well. I know they did find an investor willing to invest a few million so that's looking good but I don't know if it's done or if they still need more.
 

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I was joking about Götze, because wherever he goes there's a huge media hype initially and then, over time, more and more people admit/realize that he's just not a flashy or dominating player anymore. Even now there seems to be similar stuff happening at Frankfurt.
 

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Lots of movement now. Bergwijn's transfer from Spurs to Ajax is apparently nearly done, PSV are signing Luuk de Jong (replacing for Zahavi), and have also gotten Til from Spartak Moscow instead of Feyenoord.

That last one is unfortunate really, it just shows how far Feyenoord have fallen down the pecking order. Nothing new of course, but you can barely speak of the 'grote drie' (big three) anymore. And of course, Feyenoord have no choice but to shop in the bargain department again. It's not great for competition.
 

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Feyenoord have now already lost Dessers, Til, and Malacia, as well as Nelson and Linssen. That's a lot of gaps to fill around the squad. What do you think, @KirkDuyt, @therealtboy?
 

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Feyenoord have now already lost Dessers, Til, and Malacia, as well as Nelson and Linssen. That's a lot of gaps to fill around the squad. What do you think, @KirkDuyt, @therealtboy?
You're forgetting our best player, Sinisterra, who went to Leeds. Also, Leicester have come back with another shot at Kokcu. It's more money than we have ever made, but I doubt we can replace em all with players of similar quality.

Mostly goes for Sinisterra and Malacia though. I have some hope Kokcu will stay and Til, Dessers and Linssen are average players who had a great season. Nelson is fast, but that's all really. I don't rate him.

Psv have done some great business though and Ajax can afford to pay over 30 million for one player so they may as well play in a different league.
 

Thoms

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PSV is looking really strong this year. It’s going to be an exciting year in the Eredivisie!
 

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Feyenoord have now already lost Dessers, Til, and Malacia, as well as Nelson and Linssen. That's a lot of gaps to fill around the squad. What do you think, @KirkDuyt, @therealtboy?
Sinistera is the most important loss, Til and Linssen did well but their production can be replaced and Antonucci and Taabouni should do this. Great free signings for us. I’m most excited about Mats Wieffer from Excelsior and Danilo Perreira signed free from Ajax. We’ve made a lot this transfer window in incomings and spent basically nothing but added good talent. If Kokcu goes it’s a blow but Kang In Lee from Valencia is rumored to be coming in as his replacement and he’ll do really well in this league.
 

Cheimoon

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You're forgetting our best player, Sinisterra, who went to Leeds. Also, Leicester have come back with another shot at Kokcu. It's more money than we have ever made, but I doubt we can replace em all with players of similar quality.

Mostly goes for Sinisterra and Malacia though. I have some hope Kokcu will stay and Til, Dessers and Linssen are average players who had a great season. Nelson is fast, but that's all really. I don't rate him.

Psv have done some great business though and Ajax can afford to pay over 30 million for one player so they may as well play in a different league.
Sinistera is the most important loss, Til and Linssen did well but their production can be replaced and Antonucci and Taabouni should do this. Great free signings for us. I’m most excited about Mats Wieffer from Excelsior and Danilo Perreira signed free from Ajax. We’ve made a lot this transfer window in incomings and spent basically nothing but added good talent. If Kokcu goes it’s a blow but Kang In Lee from Valencia is rumored to be coming in as his replacement and he’ll do really well in this league.
Ah, I had not noticed the Sinisterra situation. Not confirmed yet, right? But close enough then, I guess.

I agree, they're not all top-quality players, but that's a fair bunches of starters or their first back-ups leaving, and the replacements are all people that have yet to show they can make the ste up to Feyenoord (if I'm not mistaken). I hope it works out, since I want as many clubs as possible to be competitive - it just looks like a lot of uncertainty to me.

But then PSV and Ajax have that also, especially on the coaching side, so what can you say, really.
 

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@therealtboy Antonnuci had a clause in his contract that he would go up with Volendam for another season if they got promoted.

@Cheimoon Ihattaren's loan was for 1,5 seasons.

As for PSV, I'm amazed Sangare hasn't been sold yet. I'm hoping Ruud will slowly transform Gakpo into a CF.
 

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Isn't Ajax miles ahead of anyone else in the Netherlands? Ruud comes across as a youth coach to me in the interview I read. Wouldn't have high expectations for him.
 

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Not quite, although CL Ajax would be miles ahead, but for some reason last few seasons they couldn't do it consistently in the Eredivisie.
And the Eredivisie isn't as weak as people seem to think. Slowly creeping up the rankings. 6th league so far. But Ligue 1 isn't that far off now.
 

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Isn't Ajax miles ahead of anyone else in the Netherlands? Ruud comes across as a youth coach to me in the interview I read. Wouldn't have high expectations for him.
What Terranova said. People keep talking about the Eredivisie as if Ajax are like Baynet in the Bundesliga, but it's nothing like that. In fact, PSV has more titles since 2000. (Or did Ajax equalize them now?)

The Eredivisie is at risk of becoming an Ajax-PSV duopoly perhaps, but I don't see that last. Neither can hang on to their talents (coaches and players), and replacing them is always a risk. Ajax had things come together very nicely the past few years, but I'd expect a few rougher years ahead for them. (That might also be wishful thinking. :D )
 

do.ob

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What Terranova said. People keep talking about the Eredivisie as if Ajax are like Baynet in the Bundesliga, but it's nothing like that. In fact, PSV has more titles since 2000. (Or did Ajax equalize them now?)

The Eredivisie is at risk of becoming an Ajax-PSV duopoly perhaps, but I don't see that last. Neither can hang on to their talents (coaches and players), and replacing them is always a risk. Ajax had things come together very nicely the past few years, but I'd expect a few rougher years ahead for them. (That might also be wishful thinking. :D )



The relative differences look pretty much like Bundesliga though and eventually that should translate to the pitch as well.
 

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The relative differences look pretty much like Bundesliga though and eventually that should translate to the pitch as well.
Yeah, but I think that's been the case for quite a while already. In principle, the Overnames approach (start spending some of that enormous cash inflows to have a sustained strong CL presence) should be making the financial gap count for Ajax; but we're a few seasons further now and it still hasn't happened. Maybe it's because Ajax in the Eredivisie can't attract the sort of bigger talent required to make the next step? And now with Overmars and Ten Hag gone, it remains to be seen if decision-making at Ajax will improve or get worse.

But yeah, I suppose an argument could be made that Ajax have actually been underperforming in the league, given their financial strength.
 

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Yeah, but I think that's been the case for quite a while already. In principle, the Overnames approach (start spending some of that enormous cash inflows to have a sustained strong CL presence) should be making the financial gap count for Ajax; but we're a few seasons further now and it still hasn't happened. Maybe it's because Ajax in the Eredivisie can't attract the sort of bigger talent required to make the next step? And now with Overmars and Ten Hag gone, it remains to be seen if decision-making at Ajax will improve or get worse.

But yeah, I suppose an argument could be made that Ajax have actually been underperforming in the league, given their financial strength.
I don't quite agree. Ajax has dominated the last few seasons. Overmars' approach has clearly worked. Ajax has achieved things in Europe that no one in the Netherlands thought was possible even 7/8 years ago. In the Dutch League Ajax has dominated and has been on top of the league for the vast majority of the last 3/4 seasons. But a total domination like Bayern in Germany is just not realistic at all. The situations aren't comparable.

A reason for that is in the question that you put in bold. Ajax indeed can't dominate more than Ajax do right now because it can't attract better players and most importantly it can't keep it's players. The comparison in the Netherlands with Bayern was always a farfetched one. Ajax can't buy PSV's best players. Although Ajax have now bought Bergwijn for a much bigger amount than I thought was ever possible, PSV will still sell its best players for more. Moreover, even if Ajax could afford PSV's best players, they wouldn't go to Ajax. For example Gakpo now won't leave PSV to join another Dutch team. He'll be looking to go to a bigger league.

Hence Ajax is not in the possibility to get the best players from PSV. Since there's a decent possibility that The Netherlands will have 2 CL places in the near future, that is also in the advantage of the other clubs. Even if they don't beat Ajax, they'll be in a place where they can get hold of the huge CL money as well. This will give them an opportunity to get closer to Ajax and therefore it'll make it even more difficult for Ajax to buy the best players from the other teams directly.

This, together with the fact that Ajax can't keep its best player s therefore is kind of in a permanent rebuilding state, make that Ajax is in a totally different situation from Bayern. Bayern gets a good team and can keep most of the core together for 10 years, getting one or two great additions every now and then. If neciserry they get them from their biggest domestic rivals. Ajax's situation is very different. You can have a big advantage over your biggest competitor, but if you have to rebuild every year, you won't get that far away. At some point Ajax is going to make a few errors in trying to replace players that are sold. It's a matter of time before rivals are going to profit from that.

Besides this, the easier league actually makes it more difficult for Ajax to dominate. Even if PSV have like 30 or 40% less money to spend on the team compared to Ajax, they still should be able to field a team that's dominant on all the other teams. Meaning if PSV do a good job themselves, they shouldn't lose many points against others. That's a big difference again with the German league for example, where Dortmund's edge over the other teams is relatively small. They can lose points almost every week. Ajax is way ahead of the rest of the league, but in the end of the day so is PSV. Therefore if PSV do a decent job, they can be very close in the league and putting the pressure on Ajax consistantly.

The difference in financial possibilities between Ajax and PSV are more visible in Europe than in ED, because Ajax can get players that are better equipped for the level required at European stage. In the Eredivisie PSV is also miles ahead of the rest and therefore in the Eredivisie the difference isn't that big and Ajax really can't afford that much missteps unless PSV make a mess of it themselves.
 

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We can see Ajax addressing the issue of their high player turnover though:

18/19: €30m on Blind and Tadic
19/20: €15m on Promes
20/21: €34m on Haller and Klaassen
21/22: €5m on Berghuis
22/23: €30m on Bergwijn

Quite a bit of money spent on those players and all of them were probably supposed to stay long term and create a stable spine.
 

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Besides this, the easier league actually makes it more difficult for Ajax to dominate. Even if PSV have like 30 or 40% less money to spend on the team compared to Ajax, they still should be able to field a team that's dominant on all the other teams. Meaning if PSV do a good job themselves, they shouldn't lose many points against others. That's a big difference again with the German league for example, where Dortmund's edge over the other teams is relatively small. They can lose points almost every week. Ajax is way ahead of the rest of the league, but in the end of the day so is PSV. Therefore if PSV do a decent job, they can be very close in the league and putting the pressure on Ajax consistantly.
this is basically the main actual point worth making here.

Unless we could somehow bring the rest of the eredivisie closer to PSV's (financial) level then it doesn't matter how good we are, PSV will always be somewhat close in terms of league points
 

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I don't quite agree. Ajax has dominated the last few seasons. Overmars' approach has clearly worked. Ajax has achieved things in Europe that no one in the Netherlands thought was possible even 7/8 years ago. In the Dutch League Ajax has dominated and has been on top of the league for the vast majority of the last 3/4 seasons. But a total domination like Bayern in Germany is just not realistic at all. The situations aren't comparable.

A reason for that is in the question that you put in bold. Ajax indeed can't dominate more than Ajax do right now because it can't attract better players and most importantly it can't keep it's players. The comparison in the Netherlands with Bayern was always a farfetched one. Ajax can't buy PSV's best players. Although Ajax have now bought Bergwijn for a much bigger amount than I thought was ever possible, PSV will still sell its best players for more. Moreover, even if Ajax could afford PSV's best players, they wouldn't go to Ajax. For example Gakpo now won't leave PSV to join another Dutch team. He'll be looking to go to a bigger league.

Hence Ajax is not in the possibility to get the best players from PSV. Since there's a decent possibility that The Netherlands will have 2 CL places in the near future, that is also in the advantage of the other clubs. Even if they don't beat Ajax, they'll be in a place where they can get hold of the huge CL money as well. This will give them an opportunity to get closer to Ajax and therefore it'll make it even more difficult for Ajax to buy the best players from the other teams directly.

This, together with the fact that Ajax can't keep its best player s therefore is kind of in a permanent rebuilding state, make that Ajax is in a totally different situation from Bayern. Bayern gets a good team and can keep most of the core together for 10 years, getting one or two great additions every now and then. If neciserry they get them from their biggest domestic rivals. Ajax's situation is very different. You can have a big advantage over your biggest competitor, but if you have to rebuild every year, you won't get that far away. At some point Ajax is going to make a few errors in trying to replace players that are sold. It's a matter of time before rivals are going to profit from that.

Besides this, the easier league actually makes it more difficult for Ajax to dominate. Even if PSV have like 30 or 40% less money to spend on the team compared to Ajax, they still should be able to field a team that's dominant on all the other teams. Meaning if PSV do a good job themselves, they shouldn't lose many points against others. That's a big difference again with the German league for example, where Dortmund's edge over the other teams is relatively small. They can lose points almost every week. Ajax is way ahead of the rest of the league, but in the end of the day so is PSV. Therefore if PSV do a decent job, they can be very close in the league and putting the pressure on Ajax consistantly.

The difference in financial possibilities between Ajax and PSV are more visible in Europe than in ED, because Ajax can get players that are better equipped for the level required at European stage. In the Eredivisie PSV is also miles ahead of the rest and therefore in the Eredivisie the difference isn't that big and Ajax really can't afford that much missteps unless PSV make a mess of it themselves.
I think I would see it differently. Ajax had not been that dominant domestically. Yes, they've won the league a lot recently, but AZ could easily have won it in the pandemic season and PSV has stayed close otherwise. Another factor is that Ten Hag is a brilliant coach, which helps Ajax's results. Without that, an ajax championship is not guaranteed at all (and wasn't even last year). Much more has to come together for Bayern to risk not coming first. So Ajax is not nearly as far ahead domestically as Bayern in Germany.

I know you said that's because the league is so poor that PSV can easily rack up its points as well, but it doesn't seem much easier than Germany's to me. It's all relative, and the Dutch subtop isn't much further off Ajax and PSV than the German subtop off Bayern and Dortmund. They can both compete if things come together (like Feyenoord and AZ).

Also, Bayern doesn't often buy Dortmund's best players, that's actually pretty rare. But both PSV and Ajax can similarly buy players from every team below them - including Feyenoord these days.

I agree that Ajax has made a big difference in Europe in recent years, and that is likely due to the Overmars approach, but I'd like to see what happens without a Ten Hag before putting that all on Overmars.

To me, the key issue for Ajax (and for PSV in being unable to run away with things either) rather remains what you have in your third paragraph: they can't get the really good players, and the level they can get (or comes through their academy) isn't enough to really run away with things in the Netherlands - or the player leaves again next season for bigger things. While in Germany, Bayern can get big stars and keep them, while every other club (including Dortmund) will always lose its biggest stars to Spain and England.

It's like Bergwijn: he's pretty good and all that, but he won't destroy the Eredivisie (nor European top opposition) - which in the Eredivisie you'd kinda expect for that kind of fee. But then Ajax can only get bigger stars internationally, and that market is too expensive even for them. So they end up with good but not really good players, and cannot truly make their financial muscle count. (Which then maybe isn't their fault. I'm sure I'm starting to contradict myself somewhere here. :) )
 
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Daslogisch

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I think I would see it differently. Ajax had not been that dominant domestically. Yes, they've won the league a lot recently, but AZ could easily have won it in the pandemic season and PSV has stayed close otherwise. Another factor is that Ten Hag is a brilliant coach, which helps Ajax's results. Without that, an ajax championship is not guaranteed at all (and wasn't even last year). Much more has to come together for Bayern to risk not coming first. So Ajax is not nearly as far ahead domestically as Bayern in Germany.

I know you said that's because the league is so poor that PSV can easily rack up its points as well, but it doesn't seem much easier than Germany's to me. It's all relative, and the Dutch subtop isn't much further off Ajax and PSV than the German subtop off Bayern and Dortmund. They can both compete if things come together (like Feyenoord and AZ).

Also, Bayern doesn't often buy Dortmund's best players, that's actually pretty rare. But both PSV and Ajax can similarly buy players from every team below them - including Feyenoord these days.

I agree that Ajax has made a big difference in Europe in recent years, and that is likely due to the Overmars approach, but I'd like to see what happens without a Ten Hag before putting that all on Overmars.

To me, the key issue for Ajax (and for PSV in being unable to run away with things either) rather remains what you have in your third paragraph: they can't get the really good players, and the level they can get (or comes through their academy) isn't enough to really run away with things in the Netherlands - or the player leaves again next season for bigger things. While in Germany, Bayern can get big stars and keep them, while every other club (including Dortmund) will always lose its biggest stars to Spain and England.

It's like Bergwijn: he's pretty good and all that, but he won't destroy the Eredivisie (nor European top opposition) - which in the Eredivisie you'd kinda expect for that kind of fee. But then Ajax can only get bigger stars internationally, and that market is too expensive even for them. So they end up with good but not really good players, and cannot truly make their financial muscle count. (Which then maybe isn't their fault. I'm sure I'm starting to contradict myself somewhere here. :) )
You are indeed kind of contradicting yourself and kind of agreeing with me, despite saying you disagree. ;)

I think we are pretty much on the same page, although in my opinion the difference between Ajax/PSV and the rest in NL is much bigger than between Dortmund and the others in Germany. In Germany Bayern really has easy games against most opposition, whereas Dortmund/Leipzig/Leverkusen can easily lose points against relegation teams. That is not really the case in NL.

Whether Bayern buys Dortmunds players often or not is just a matter of perspective. They've bought Gotze, Hummels, Lewandowksi not too long ago when they were Dortmund's best players at a time that Dortmund was giving them serious competition. For me that's quite often. Bayern has shown that they're capable of doing it. Ajax can't do that and I don't believe Ajax will ever get there.

Of course Ten Hag has had a big influence as well and I'd be surprised to see Ajax just continue like the past few years. Ten Hag is a very good coach. Schreuder has to prove himself. I'm fully expecting Ajax to not reach the same heights as in recent 4 years. Of course in NL Ajax can still win the league. Ajax have done so many times before Ten Hag and will do many times after him. The European performances were quite unique (in modern football) and that won't be easily repeated I suspect.
 

do.ob

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Do Ajax need to buy top stars to dominate the league? If they buy a bunch of €20+m players while PSV has to play with €10m players that should suffice if they do their job well. After all, every issue that Ajax have with their squad building also applies to them, only that they can sell and buy for more money.

I'm not saying anything is lost, but Bayern weren't that dominant 10 years ago either. Being the only team that gets CL money and the only team that can consistently sell for CL prices should get them a little bit further ahead with every year they can keep this up, until eventually they are so far ahead, that the quality is enough to win when things aren't fully going according to plan.

Modern football has become very much "rich get richer".
 
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Cheimoon

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You are indeed kind of contradicting yourself and kind of agreeing with me, despite saying you disagree. ;)
Im purposefully not reading back everything I've written so far. :D
I think we are pretty much on the same page, although in my opinion the difference between Ajax/PSV and the rest in NL is much bigger than between Dortmund and the others in Germany. In Germany Bayern really has easy games against most opposition, whereas Dortmund/Leipzig/Leverkusen can easily lose points against relegation teams. That is not really the case in NL.
I'm just not sure about that. PSV and Ajax both had league seasons that are close to optimal, but still each had a period where they were dropping points to all kinds of teams. That'll only be worse with less good coaches. I think you overestimate the quality of the bottom half of the BL, or underestimate that in the Eredivisie.
Whether Bayern buys Dortmunds players often or not is just a matter of perspective. They've bought Gotze, Hummels, Lewandowksi not too long ago when they were Dortmund's best players at a time that Dortmund was giving them serious competition. For me that's quite often. Bayern has shown that they're capable of doing it. Ajax can't do that and I don't believe Ajax will ever get there.
That's the usual argument, but in reality, it's been a while since that actually happened with Bayern and Dortmund. But yes, it remains possible, more than Ajax-PSV transfers.
Of course Ten Hag has had a big influence as well and I'd be surprised to see Ajax just continue like the past few years. Ten Hag is a very good coach. Schreuder has to prove himself. I'm fully expecting Ajax to not reach the same heights as in recent 4 years. Of course in NL Ajax can still win the league. Ajax have done so many times before Ten Hag and will do many times after him. The European performances were quite unique (in modern football) and that won't be easily repeated I suspect.
Ajax actually had a four-year gap before Ten Hag, and a six-year gap before De Boer. So as much as I agree that they always can win the league, it's not that obvious that they will win it. However...
I'm not saying anything is lost, but Bayern weren't that dominant 10 years ago either. Being the only team that gets CL money and the only team that can consistently sell for CL prices should get them a little bit further ahead with every year they can keep this up, until eventually they are so far ahead, that the quality is enough to win when things aren't fully going according to plan.

Modern football has become very much "rich get richer".
I absolutely agree with this point, which also means that 5 or 15 years ago (Ajax's previous dry spells) don't matter much anymore, as the financial balance keeps shifting in Ajax's favour. (And to a lesser extent in PSV's, since they also get more European money than anyone else - but much less than Ajax.)

As for your other argument, @do.ob - I think the players Ajax can buy are absolutely a level above what other clubs can get, but just not enough to steamroller the league.
 

VanDeBank

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I'm still giving the title to Ajax. I just don't rate that PSV defense and I'm always skeptical of goal scorers turned managers.

Feyenoord on the other hand look awful. Apart from Dilrosun they don't have any firepower in that front 4. I wouldn't be surprised if AZ or Twente finish above them.
 

Rozay

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Think there’s good money to be had on PSV taking it next season.
 

Daslogisch

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Think there’s good money to be had on PSV taking it next season.
It's definitely worth a bet, but if you take it, I hope you lose it.;)

Obviously Ajax is the favourite with all the money coming in and the amount spent. Nevertheless there are a lot of changes. A new team has to be built. Especially the midfield concerns me and the manager has to convince me as well. PSV could have a real shot this year, if RvN turns out a decent manager.

At least with players like Blind, Tadic and Klaassen there's some club culture left. Players that understand how the club works and have the right winning mentality. They should still be dominant enough in the dressing room to create a new winning mentality and culture between all these new players. The coach is going to need it to get things on the right track within an acceptable amount of time.
 

ArjenIsM3

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It's definitely going to be an interesting season with all the big teams having had major changes. They all need to rebuild and we'll see who does it best. I agree Feyenoord don't look like a contender unless both Ajax and PSV have a major meltdown.
 

Rozay

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I'm still giving the title to Ajax. I just don't rate that PSV defense and I'm always skeptical of goal scorers turned managers.

Feyenoord on the other hand look awful. Apart from Dilrosun they don't have any firepower in that front 4. I wouldn't be surprised if AZ or Twente finish above them.
I think the signing of Branthwaite will be a masterstroke in defence for PSV. I’ve been very impressed with him, and hope he’s a player we have an eye on for the future.
 

Graveyard

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That Ajax side is so far ahead of the other teams in terms of football heritage. That is the only team that knows what it takes to win titles.
 
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