Erik ten Hag | 100k a day, who is the real loser, heh ?

Zehner said:
That's debatable to say the least. I say the reasonable thing to do as the manager holding the record for the earliest sacking in history would be to reflect if I did something wrong. But he's hiding behind the fact that he was fired this early, basically claiming there is no scenario in which this could make sense.
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I'm sure he will also reflect internally as to what he could have done differently. But he will also have the belief that he would have gotten things on the right track if given more time and will more than likely have a different perspective on some of the things that have been leaked.

Do I think he would have been successful? No but I would have said the same thing the moment he was hired. But he is right to argue his corner.
 
I'm far from a Ten Hag fan, but sacking after 2 days in those circumstances is a bonkers, and the whole media leaks that have come since just sound like a witch hunt and spin. The worst manager in 20 years quote smacks of massive recency bias and is probably completely fabricated.

But good for him, financially. :)
 
Rooney in Paris said:
I'm far from a Ten Hag fan, but sacking after 2 days in those circumstances is a bonkers, and the whole media leaks that have come since just sound like a witch hunt and spin. The worst manager in 20 years quote smacks of massive recency bias and is probably completely fabricated.

But good for him, financially. :)
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I'm sure a bit of that is a media spin. But nothing that was reported by the media feels out of place, everything fits issues that were publicly visible.

The worst in 20 years... well, the combination of overstepping his competencies and not preapring the team properly at least feels unique.

Leverkusen had some shit managers over the years, but more in the "Moyes at United" category - just people who obviously were not ready for a top 4 team.

I can't remember any of those being an egomaniac like EtH appeared to be there.

So it's believable that he stands out in people's memories. Maybe unjustified, but I can absolutely see where this is coming from.
 
2 games?

Yes I understand, Leverkusen saw a lot of things behind the scenes, and if their version of things is completely accurate, no point holding onto EtH longer than necessary.

I just question their version of events. I'd have to hear from players and staff to believe that someone who they interviewed and shook hands with regarding the situation on ground, became someone else overnight.

I'm inclined to believe that EtH was unwilling to accept the squad attrition and made things untenable internally to the point that the board believed he was stepping out of line. Not that he was incapable of fulfilling the basic responsibilities of a coach.

Happy to be convinced otherwise if morepeople come out
 
OverratedOpinion said:
I'm sure he will also reflect internally as to what he could have done differently. But he will also have the belief that he would have gotten things on the right track if given more time and will more than likely have a different perspective on some of the things that have been leaked.

Do I think he would have been successful? No but I would have said the same thing the moment he was hired. But he is right to argue his corner.
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We agree that he shouldn't have been hired. I gave him the benefit of the doubt because I had trust in Rolfes but it is obvious he screwed up and didn't do the necessary background check/ignored the red flags. Anyway, I don't think ten Hag is doing himself a favor with this statement. Rolfes openly admits his mistake and avoids criticizing ten Hag directly and that reasonates very well with the public while ten Hag criticizes the our management and at least publicly doesn't take responsibility.
 
adexkola said:
Not that he was incapable of fulfilling the basic responsibilities of a coach.

Happy to be convinced otherwise if morepeople come out
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Of course it is difficult to see what could be a media campaign and what is the truth, do I'll stick to an example that we all could see on the pitch to show his problems:

In Bremen they got awarded a penalty. Palacios wanted to take that and post match EtH claimed that he had decided that Palacios was the destined penalty taker.

However in that moment Schick wanted to take the penalty as well, so there was a discussion on the pitch. And the captain (Andrich) settled it and decided Schick should take it (which he did and converted).
In his post match interview Andrich stated that there was no order decided by EtH about who should take penalties.

So it looks like Palacios himself is the only one who was told that he should take penalties by ETH, not even the captain knew that. And Andrich further complained that everybody was doing his own thing, they weren't acting as a team (which was obvious when watching their abysmal performance).

If this kind of communication issue as made visible by the penalty was typical for EtH's style of coaching than it is no wonder that the players lost confidence in him. Nobody seemed to know what others should do on the pitch and they all played like that. And that's worrying.

It's a huge rebuild, it's loads of new players, nobody would have complained if the timings of run or passes would still be off or similar issues. But not giving this new team structure was a huge mistake by EtH.
 
Zehner said:
We agree that he shouldn't have been hired. I gave him the benefit of the doubt because I had trust in Rolfes but it is obvious he screwed up and didn't do the necessary background check/ignored the red flags. Anyway, I don't think ten Hag is doing himself a favor with this statement. Rolfes openly admits his mistake and avoids criticizing ten Hag directly and that reasonates very well with the public while ten Hag criticizes the our management and at least publicly doesn't take responsibility.
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Who do you reckon is next up anyway?

Is Marco Rose not highly rated in Germany? He seems to be quite young and have a very decent record but I never really hear his name.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
I'm far from a Ten Hag fan, but sacking after 2 days in those circumstances is a bonkers, and the whole media leaks that have come since just sound like a witch hunt and spin. The worst manager in 20 years quote smacks of massive recency bias and is probably completely fabricated.

But good for him, financially. :)
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Still daft but it was two months rather than two days. I'd guess him and the higher ups there had some big disagreements in that time.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
I'm far from a Ten Hag fan, but sacking after 2 days in those circumstances is a bonkers, and the whole media leaks that have come since just sound like a witch hunt and spin. The worst manager in 20 years quote smacks of massive recency bias and is probably completely fabricated.

But good for him, financially. :)
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They are obviously leaking stuff to the press to justify the sacking. But that doesn’t mean those things aren’t true and not the reason for the sacking. If they would have to fabricate everything, they wouldn’t have any reason to sack him in the first place.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Who do you reckon is next up anyway?

Is Marco Rose not highly rated in Germany? He seems to be quite young and have a very decent record but I never really hear his name.
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I don't really rate the current generation of German coaches. At least not the ones available. Rose would be the save choice but I'd prefer a bit more visionary. High risk, high reward. The worst situation for me is when you're stuck with a coach whose results are too good to be sacked but not entirely convincing either so when there's finally a good option on the market (Fabregas, Hoeneß or Huerzeler e. g.), you have to let it pass.

If I had to choose, I'd go for Arbeloa. Still flies a bit under the radar, doesn't really have a perspective at Real because of Alonso and plays possession football. I'd be very happy with Xavi as well.
 
The "leaks" just sound purposely made up.

No one at the club had some kind of discussion or pole on who the worst manager of the last 15 years was, and even if they did what a bunch of absolute weirdos.

Sounds more like he walked into a terrible environment and called it out for what it was. So probably the expectations/aims didn't align in the first place and no one bothered to check or make that clear before they hired him.
 
Zehner said:
I don't really rate the current generation of German coaches. At least not the ones available. Rose would be the save choice but I'd prefer a bit more visionary. High risk, high reward. The worst situation for me is when you're stuck with a coach whose results are too good to be sacked but not entirely convincing either so when there's finally a good option on the market (Fabregas, Hoeneß or Huerzeler e. g.), you have to let it pass.

If I had to choose, I'd go for Arbeloa. Still flies a bit under the radar, doesn't really have a perspective at Real because of Alonso and plays possession football. I'd be very happy with Xavi as well.
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I read that Xavi is not interesting in returning to football.

It will be interesting who takes the job on because its quite uncertain what Leverkusen's targets will be.

They were happy to let go their best players and the players brought in will need time to gel together, not knowing how many of them will be good.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
I'm sure he will also reflect internally as to what he could have done differently. But he will also have the belief that he would have gotten things on the right track if given more time and will more than likely have a different perspective on some of the things that have been leaked.

Do I think he would have been successful? No but I would have said the same thing the moment he was hired. But he is right to argue his corner.
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When you're sacked after two games, it isn't a case of getting things on the right track with enough time. You're employer is saying that, in their opinion, you are wholly unsuited to the job.
 
Zehner said:
I don't really rate the current generation of German coaches. At least not the ones available. Rose would be the save choice but I'd prefer a bit more visionary. High risk, high reward. The worst situation for me is when you're stuck with a coach whose results are too good to be sacked but not entirely convincing either so when there's finally a good option on the market (Fabregas, Hoeneß or Huerzeler e. g.), you have to let it pass.

If I had to choose, I'd go for Arbeloa. Still flies a bit under the radar, doesn't really have a perspective at Real because of Alonso and plays possession football. I'd be very happy with Xavi as well.
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Arbeloa would be fun, very little experience with a totally new squad but Alonso didn't have experience either so who knows.
 
Nonsensical media briefing by Leverkusen. Seems like Ten Hag objected the attrition of the team and got the boot for trying to stand in the way of getting some money.
 
noodlehair said:
The "leaks" just sound purposely made up.
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They don't. They fit very well what everybody could see in games, press conferences and interviews.
noodlehair said:
No one at the club had some kind of discussion or pole on who the worst manager of the last 15 years was, and even if they did what a bunch of absolute weirdos.
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Why wouldn't they? People do rankings all the time. Sure it would not have been a formal poll, but when things go wrong in a business the employees will talk about that and that can be leaked to the media.
noodlehair said:
Sounds more like he walked into a terrible environment and called it out for what it was.
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Unlikely. Before EtH Leverkusen was always seen as a boring, calm and rational club. We are not talking about known snakepits like Schalke here.
noodlehair said:
So probably the expectations/aims didn't align in the first place and no one bothered to check or make that clear before they hired him.
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This has to be true in some way.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Why not me.

I'd honestly be so good at being a shit football manager. I'd have an absolute breakdown in the first press conference, blame the players for everything. I'd literally cry in the touchline if it helped.
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Can you squat with your head in your hands?
 
stefan92 said:
They don't. They fit very well what everybody could see in games, press conferences and interviews.

Why wouldn't they? People do rankings all the time. Sure it would not have been a formal poll, but when things go wrong in a business the employees will talk about that and that can be leaked to the media.

Unlikely. Before EtH Leverkusen was always seen as a boring, calm and rational club. We are not talking about known snakepits like Schalke here.

This has to be true in some way.
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People don't sit around ranking all their bosses from the last 20 years and then go around conducting some kind of poll with all the other employees. No one does this, ever. For a start almost no one would have been there during that whole time.

It's just ridiculous made up nonsense which in turn casts severe doubt over the legitimacy of the rest of the "leak"
 
stefan92 said:
They don't. They fit very well what everybody could see in games, press conferences and interviews.

Why wouldn't they? People do rankings all the time. Sure it would not have been a formal poll, but when things go wrong in a business the employees will talk about that and that can be leaked to the media.

Unlikely. Before EtH Leverkusen was always seen as a boring, calm and rational club. We are not talking about known snakepits like Schalke here.

This has to be true in some way.
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They were also never seen as a successful club. And now finished first and second in consecutive seasons, might have changed them
 
stefan92 said:
Of course it is difficult to see what could be a media campaign and what is the truth, do I'll stick to an example that we all could see on the pitch to show his problems:

In Bremen they got awarded a penalty. Palacios wanted to take that and post match EtH claimed that he had decided that Palacios was the destined penalty taker.

However in that moment Schick wanted to take the penalty as well, so there was a discussion on the pitch. And the captain (Andrich) settled it and decided Schick should take it (which he did and converted).
In his post match interview Andrich stated that there was no order decided by EtH about who should take penalties.

So it looks like Palacios himself is the only one who was told that he should take penalties by ETH, not even the captain knew that. And Andrich further complained that everybody was doing his own thing, they weren't acting as a team (which was obvious when watching their abysmal performance).

If this kind of communication issue as made visible by the penalty was typical for EtH's style of coaching than it is no wonder that the players lost confidence in him. Nobody seemed to know what others should do on the pitch and they all played like that. And that's worrying.

It's a huge rebuild, it's loads of new players, nobody would have complained if the timings of run or passes would still be off or similar issues. But not giving this new team structure was a huge mistake by EtH.
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Very insightful thank you. And I could see EtH doing something like this.

The sudden sack is jarring... Like others have mentioned, based on what we are privy to (results on the pitch), not much to suggest he is doing an awful job

But at the end of the day if Leverkusen feels he's not the right fit then no point keeping on. He gets his severance and can look elsewhere for a job. No harm no foul.
 
Daydreamer said:
Yeah, but when your employer thinks you're wholly unsuitable for the job they're employing you for, your disagreement, while understandable, is fairly irrelevant.
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Sure but it's relevant to the point that I was discussing when you quoted my post which was how he's responded to it.
 
hellhunter said:
They were also never seen as a successful club. And now finished first and second in consecutive seasons, might have changed them
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I don't think we changed. We've always prioritized right decisions over popular ones. For instance, we sacked Heiko Herrlich after he won two games in a row and was close to (or even on course for) the top 4 which many journos found scandalous. But Herrlich was a bad coach and the step was necessary. On the contrary, we kept Roger Schmidt around much longer than the media expected us to because we believed he could turn it around. It's always been a part of our identity that we don't give in to the usual mechanisms in football just because.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Sure but it's relevant to the point that I was discussing when you quoted my post which was how he's responded to it.
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I’m aware. @Zehner said that his response shows a lack of self-reflection, which I agree with. And if ETH’s response is based on the idea that he needed more time, as you suggested, then both he and you seemingly fundamentally misunderstand why he was dismissed.

The shortest tenure in a league’s history isn’t due to a club’s impatience. It’s them believing that they made a mistake in hiring you in the first place (for whatever reason) and rectifying it immediately.
 
matsdf said:
Let's see how the season pans out first...
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That's completely irrelevant.

He managed to irremediably alienate both the board and the squad in a matter of weeks to the point where the club decided that cutting ties was the best solution.

You can rightly question the decision to hire him, which was mental, especially when coming after Xabi Alonso's successful tenure, not the fact that Leverkusen decided to immediately nip the problem in the bud.
 
German posters: We can read German, have access to German media, know the Bundesliga and how clubs are run here.

Utd fans after witnessing ETH's 2 and half years: Yeah but no one has literally has come out and said it, could be media faff init.
 
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Daydreamer said:
I’m aware. @Zehner said that his response shows a lack of self-reflection, which I agree with. And if ETH’s response is based on the idea that he needed more time, as you suggested, then both he and you seemingly fundamentally misunderstand why he was dismissed.

The shortest tenure in a league’s history isn’t due to a club’s impatience. It’s them believing that they made a mistake in hiring you in the first place (for whatever reason) and rectifying it immediately.
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He was sacked because they decided he was the wrong man. My point was that his response was reasonable based on the limited time, upheaval at the club and the fact that despite me not rating him, he has proven to be a successful manager so far.

Since this is the third time that someone has responded to my message as if I had said he deserved to keep his job rather than what I actually said. I will answer that.

I think he's a bang average manager, I think that they never should have hired him. But they did and I think a lot of the leaks are intentionally one sided and quite dubious. Average manager, placed in a bad position by the club. The decision to sack him was the most sensible decision but they have also wasted his time and helped to further damage his reputation by employing a coach who they never really believed in and now going on a campaign of leaking crap.

Shitty situation all round.
 
HTG said:
Who cares what he’s won elsewhere? It wasn’t working at Leverkusen. That’s enough for them.
They saw the way he prepared his team and apparently found his approach to be lacking. A lot. The players too. He seems to have clashed with his bosses and wanted to explain to them how to do their jobs. He was acting like a manager similar to the English approach, when the club hired him as a coach, typical for most clubs in Europe.
It didn’t fit. It doesn’t matter if he was ten Hag, Pep or SAF himself. If it doesn’t work, there’s no good reason to continue.

I really don’t see why that’s so outlandish. Sure, they shouldn’t have hired him in the first place. But your insistence that they should have kept working with a manager, who they had already lost trust in, were apparently arguing with and found to lack in competence does not make sense to me. They deemed these things unredeemable and moved on. Giving a manager time for the sake of giving him time, doesn’t achieve anything other then a dysfunctional team.
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That is of course all stuff we've been briefed from the club through kicker.
Obviously these are sufficient reasons for his sacking, and as you say, if the club decides it's not working, that is that.
However whether these reason are actually true, i.e. who is actually lacking the competence between the two sides, is another story.
 
noodlehair said:
People don't sit around ranking all their bosses from the last 20 years and then go around conducting some kind of poll with all the other employees. No one does this, ever. For a start almost no one would have been there during that whole time.

It's just ridiculous made up nonsense which in turn casts severe doubt over the legitimacy of the rest of the "leak"
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Some people have been working there this long for sure. Just have two of them have this dialogue: "Can you remember a coach this bad?" - "No, it's the worst I've ever seen".
Than tell that your journalist friend who you know because you work for the club for many years and he does cover the club for years.

And there you go, a "leaked ranking" of EtH as the worst coach of the past two decades. I reall, don't see why this would be ridiculous?
 
OverratedOpinion said:
He was sacked because they decided he was the wrong man. My point was that his response was reasonable based on the limited time, upheaval at the club and the fact that despite me not rating him, he has proven to be a successful manager so far.

Since this is the third time that someone has responded to my message as if I had said he deserved to keep his job rather than what I actually said. I will answer that.

I think he's a bang average manager, I think that they never should have hired him. But they did and I think a lot of the leaks are intentionally one sided and quite dubious. Average manager, placed in a bad position by the club. The decision to sack him was the most sensible decision but they have also wasted his time and helped to further damage his reputation by employing a coach who they never really believed in and now going on a campaign of leaking crap.

Shitty situation all round.
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The problem with his statement is that he talks about things that weren't an issue, but ignores the publicly stated issues. This is why it reads as a try to deflect any criticism.

He does nothing to defend himself against the accusations in that statement, so what does he hope to achieve with it?
 
FortunaUtd said:
That is of course all stuff we've been briefed from the club through kicker.
Obviously these are sufficient reasons for his sacking, and as you say, if the club decides it's not working, that is that.
However whether these reason are actually true, i.e. who is actually lacking the competence between the two sides, is another story.
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Of course. But those are very plausible reasons and they fit into what we saw on press conferences and the like. I expect them to exaggerate a bit. But otherwise I see no reason not to believe them.
 
stefan92 said:
The problem with his statement is that he talks about things that weren't an issue, but ignores the publicly stated issues. This is why it reads as a try to deflect any criticism.

He does nothing to defend himself against the accusations in that statement, so what does he hope to achieve with it?
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I think he touches on it when he mentions the lack of trust.

The initial statement immediately after being sacked isn't the time to go point by point and combat a bunch of leaks. He may choose to address those at a later date but that absolutely wasn't the time.
 
FortunaUtd said:
That is of course all stuff we've been briefed from the club through kicker.
Obviously these are sufficient reasons for his sacking, and as you say, if the club decides it's not working, that is that.
However whether these reason are actually true, i.e. who is actually lacking the competence between the two sides, is another story.
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It's not just Kicker though. Bild and WDR reported the same, and without referencing Kicker as their source. And it fits in with the public statements we have seen by players and EtH.
Playing that down as it just being the club briefing with dubious veracity is a rather questionable take.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
I think he touches on it when he mentions the lack of trust.
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But he doesn't mention anything about why he wasn't trusted. But it's a bit of a weird situation, there must have been a base originally why he was even hired.
OverratedOpinion said:
The initial statement immediately after being sacked isn't the time to go point by point and combat a bunch of leaks. He may choose to address those at a later date but that absolutely wasn't the time.
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That's true. I think he should have kept his statement even shorter.
 
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