Cut the shit out, both of you. Neither of you are. Just Lucky is.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Hey, a lot of people are saying crazy shit in here. That can’t be denied. It’s mental and everyone knows it. They should stay at Twitter as it’s just toxic behaviour and nothing good coming out of it.
What's with Arsenal trying to build a pantheon of God references
Odin, Asgard, Jesus.
I'm not panicking over ETH, but..........It occurs to me that we might be seeing a fundamental Manchester United problem. I feel like Ed Woodword has never left. There's this aura of "we can do things that no one else would even think of!" and so far this season, we're reeking of it.
In hindsight, why would he have OK'd bringing in a brand new, untested-in-the-PL manager when there was such an overturn expected in the players? I'm afraid it's hubris, the idea that "we're Man Utd" and we didn't want to be ordinarily competent and hire Conte or someone similar. We want to be special.
Competence would be really nice to see occasionally.
In hindsight, why would he have OK'd bringing in a brand new, untested-in-the-PL manager when there was such an overturn expected in the players? I'm afraid it's hubris, the idea that "we're Man Utd" and we didn't want to be ordinarily competent and hire Conte or someone similar. We want to be special.
Competence would be really nice to see occasionally.
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Give your head a wobble and move on.
Wonderful rebuttal. Onto the ignore list you go.
This topic is hilarious.. or sad.
During the whole summer:
90% full support, long term ideal manager
10% not their choice / want to wait and see and demand instant success
After 1 loss:
10% full support
90% want short term success, can't handle a loss and demand quick changes.
It's laughable. I hear terms like 'I still support him... BUT.' or 'this is just constructive critisizm'. All nonsense. This is not full support. Either you support the manager, or you don't. No manager will ever line up the exact 11 players that you want every time. No manager will make perfect subsitutions. I bet even SAF many times started one or more players that weren't part of the ideal 11 of the vast majority. That's because coaches have their own ideas and they see qualities in players that the vast majority doesn't see. I guess that's why the managers are the managers.
All those people who said all summer that they completely backed the manager, they should really shut up now. You back the manager right? Why did you back him? Because you believe in his ideas long term I can only assume. Then just shut up after one fecking loss. Of course you can be dissappointed, but you shouldn't start critisizing after one match if you're really behind the manager. Then you are no better than all the people who were doubting in the first place. At least they were doubting it already in the first place. Full support means you shut up for a few months before you start going on about formations, players started and substitutions. No manager will ever get that right according to the majority of fans (of any club). Full support also means you shut up for the first few months and give the manager time. After a few months is when you judge the progress.
'I am completely behind EtH, but he really shouldn't play McFred anymore'
'I am completely behind EtH, but he really can't let Rashford be on the pitch for more than 30 minutes'
'I am completely behind EtH, but if he doesn't move on from FdJ I really start to doubt him''
'i am completely behind EtH, but Eriksen as a false 9 really makes me doubt his tactics'.
Unconditional support. Completely behind the manager.. right.
Some of the points of critisizm raised may be fair, but just wait it out a while and see where it all goes. I can see that Eriksen as a false 9 might not work, I can see that McFred might eventually not work, I can see that him only going after players he knows might not work. But first give it time. You've played counterattacking football for what, 5/6 years? Then you bring EtH to play wonderball and you expect everything to change in a few weeks. Of course he won't change McFred in Xavi and Busquets in a month. Who knows what he can do with them in 4 or 5 months though. This is not FM people. I've said it in several transfertopics this summer, you don't have unlimited cash. Some of you seem to think United can just get rid of everyone and buy everyone they want. Besides the fact that elite players don't want to be here, you also simply don't have the cash to just buy 10 players.
ETH has to work with these players. Maybe he is holding out too long for FdJ. ETH already said though, I want the right player, not just a player. Maybe therefore you'll be stuck with McFred. You are however all forgetting two things. You can't sign elite players unless they're in some kind of situation like FdJ or Eriksen. This means the alternatives to FdJ are not going to be elite players. They are going to be second rate players as well. None of these second rate players are used to Ten Hag ball. Alternatives mentioned like Tielemans and Neves have played counterattacking football as well in the past few years with their teams. So in ETH's mind, why would he spend 40m on a second rate player that then also needs to adjust a lot to what he wants to see? From that perspective, it's even quite smart not to do it and just see what he can do with the available material. But he won't change that into something great in a few weeks.
For those who had doubts about him since the beginning, fair play. But all those people who were over the moon when you signed him and said you were completely behind the manager. Now is the time to show and not just now but the next like 12 months regardless of the situation. If your 'completely behind the manager' get's a (big) knock because of a chosen formation, a few subsitutions or one or two bad games, your unconditional support is pretty worthless.
During the whole summer:
90% full support, long term ideal manager
10% not their choice / want to wait and see and demand instant success
After 1 loss:
10% full support
90% want short term success, can't handle a loss and demand quick changes.
It's laughable. I hear terms like 'I still support him... BUT.' or 'this is just constructive critisizm'. All nonsense. This is not full support. Either you support the manager, or you don't. No manager will ever line up the exact 11 players that you want every time. No manager will make perfect subsitutions. I bet even SAF many times started one or more players that weren't part of the ideal 11 of the vast majority. That's because coaches have their own ideas and they see qualities in players that the vast majority doesn't see. I guess that's why the managers are the managers.
All those people who said all summer that they completely backed the manager, they should really shut up now. You back the manager right? Why did you back him? Because you believe in his ideas long term I can only assume. Then just shut up after one fecking loss. Of course you can be dissappointed, but you shouldn't start critisizing after one match if you're really behind the manager. Then you are no better than all the people who were doubting in the first place. At least they were doubting it already in the first place. Full support means you shut up for a few months before you start going on about formations, players started and substitutions. No manager will ever get that right according to the majority of fans (of any club). Full support also means you shut up for the first few months and give the manager time. After a few months is when you judge the progress.
'I am completely behind EtH, but he really shouldn't play McFred anymore'
'I am completely behind EtH, but he really can't let Rashford be on the pitch for more than 30 minutes'
'I am completely behind EtH, but if he doesn't move on from FdJ I really start to doubt him''
'i am completely behind EtH, but Eriksen as a false 9 really makes me doubt his tactics'.
Unconditional support. Completely behind the manager.. right.
Some of the points of critisizm raised may be fair, but just wait it out a while and see where it all goes. I can see that Eriksen as a false 9 might not work, I can see that McFred might eventually not work, I can see that him only going after players he knows might not work. But first give it time. You've played counterattacking football for what, 5/6 years? Then you bring EtH to play wonderball and you expect everything to change in a few weeks. Of course he won't change McFred in Xavi and Busquets in a month. Who knows what he can do with them in 4 or 5 months though. This is not FM people. I've said it in several transfertopics this summer, you don't have unlimited cash. Some of you seem to think United can just get rid of everyone and buy everyone they want. Besides the fact that elite players don't want to be here, you also simply don't have the cash to just buy 10 players.
ETH has to work with these players. Maybe he is holding out too long for FdJ. ETH already said though, I want the right player, not just a player. Maybe therefore you'll be stuck with McFred. You are however all forgetting two things. You can't sign elite players unless they're in some kind of situation like FdJ or Eriksen. This means the alternatives to FdJ are not going to be elite players. They are going to be second rate players as well. None of these second rate players are used to Ten Hag ball. Alternatives mentioned like Tielemans and Neves have played counterattacking football as well in the past few years with their teams. So in ETH's mind, why would he spend 40m on a second rate player that then also needs to adjust a lot to what he wants to see? From that perspective, it's even quite smart not to do it and just see what he can do with the available material. But he won't change that into something great in a few weeks.
For those who had doubts about him since the beginning, fair play. But all those people who were over the moon when you signed him and said you were completely behind the manager. Now is the time to show and not just now but the next like 12 months regardless of the situation. If your 'completely behind the manager' get's a (big) knock because of a chosen formation, a few subsitutions or one or two bad games, your unconditional support is pretty worthless.
This x10.
100% behind Ten Hag nothing i have seen has anything to do with him. RR was not given a penny in jan transfer where we all thought they were saving it for new manager. Reality has struck home and all fans need to wise up to that we are being mismanaged by the board and levels beneath. We can't complete a transfer without as lengthy media drama so its not looking good if we are after a juventus reject and a veteran austrian who is trouble where ever he goes. Finally what's all the media negativity on Martinez from size to performance its ridiculous whist ignoring Maguires failing. Martinez's is bigger than another argentinian Mascherano and he didn't have much of a shabby career.
Well said. Deserves an own thread, because this thread is horrific.
I hold that Brighton are not a great club, certainly not in the same category of greatness as Arsenal and Spurs, and certainly not in the category of City and Liverpool. But yes of course what Potter has achieved at Brighton is "great", but the side he put out yesterday should not have resulted in anything but a win for us.
That we are already underachieving under ETH is understandable given that we're only a month into his tenure, as you rightly point out, but it was our mistakes and not Brighton's greatness that cost us three points yesterday. I think we're in agreement on the substance of this point and we can leave semantic differences aside.
You don’t just go from Antony and Nunez to Arnautovic there’s obviously been a situation where he’s been told they don’t have the money for a attacker or something along those lines.
I mean same with Rabiot he’s been on the transfer list since June we could have signed him anytime
Nobody gets unconditional support. This isn't a cult like RAWK where the manager can do no wrong and any criticism results in a ban. Even SAF got criticized here at times for baffling team selections and tactics.
As with any manager, there will be good times and bad times, and there's nothing wrong with having an honest and open discussion about both.
Also, as I've pointed out multiple times, the vast majority of criticism in here is aimed at the club hierarchy for undermining the manager yet again. ETH is not a DOF and shouldn't be expected to be one. He is a world class coach, and that's what his job responsibility should be.
This is how connected people from other sports view us. He has a hell of a job:
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Too late in the market now. Who will sell their key players this late? We are going to get players like Rabiot, Arnautovic and that betis guy.
Unbelievable that none of the coaches, DoF, any remaining intelligent staff and Fletcher thought of replacing Fred and McT in last three months. One defeat and all their plans collapsed like house of cards.
Unbelievable that none of the coaches, DoF, any remaining intelligent staff and Fletcher thought of replacing Fred and McT in last three months. One defeat and all their plans collapsed like house of cards.
There are no intelligent staff.
Murtough and Fletcher would struggle to make an omelette if you gave them 50 frying pans and 5000 eggs.
Not being funny but this is bollocks. Signing Ronaldo has nothing to do with Sancho, unless whoever that is thinks Sancho is a striker.
Do you believe the latter are players he’s deviated from perceived pattern for or players the club have pulled out of their arse, seriously?
That he’s scoured Europe’s best and brightest and come up with Arnautovic and Rabiot?
By most (all) accounts, he’s been after Antony, De Jong and players of a similar ilk that even if you don’t outright agree with, you can see why there would be a belief they can enhance the team. By contrast, we’re now scraping as many barrels as we can turn over, seemingly.
We’re not even scattergunning good players; I don’t think ten Hag has a single thing to do with that - his options are dross or face certain calamity by sticking with what has let us down time and time again. As underwhelming as a Rabiot is, he still walks into our midfield, which is the damning indictment of how bad it is, not how good he is.
If he doesn’t have the constitution to politic and grit his teeth, he may well walk from this job before being pushed if the club don’t sort their shit out.
No it isn’t bollocks. If you don’t think Ronaldo fundamentally changes how a team plays you’re in cuckoo land. As mitten has reported numerous times - the coaching staff didn’t have a fecking scooby he was arriving - he just turned up one day and they were told to incorporate him. No other top team would do that.
The owners and Arnold deserve him to walk in tomorrow and resign, he's getting screwed harder than any past manager and he's quite possibly the best one post Fergie we've had
But I can't even believe that EtH thinks those two are better than what we have in youth set up that he took on tour. And I can't believe there's nobody available at a level between Antony/Nunes and Rabiot/Arnautovic.
The rationale that EtH worked with Arnautovic before is scary. It's a nightmare frankly.
Yeah I do agree it’s all very bizarre. I don’t know how the hell we go from FdJ to Rabiot and from Antony to Arnautovic.
Like I’ve said in another thread we’ve had 10 years of shit but all this is a new low even for us. It feels like the curtain has been pulled back and we can all clearly see the club are absolutely clueless, we knew it but they always gave us a bit of hope…. this summer we don’t even have the hope it’s just plain to see how badly run we are.
Putting it out there that ETH will walk before the end of the season. I generally believe this summer has been that bad he will feck off. Conte would have walked by now.
I don't think supporters asking to sack ETH after one game. Did you write entire long post assuming that! That would be absurd at highest level. Or are you suggesting supporters should not criticise the manager for playing wrong players, taking them through a depressing match and losing 3 points in the process? Basic logic says people will ask questions, criticise. Yes, some may go overboard but given a painful decade of incompetence I will cut some slack to the poor supporters who are standing with the club regardless. They deserve more. Even from a new manager.
Lecturing supporters for criticising the manager after such a dreadful football and loss is unfair.
Renato Sanches, Fabian Ruiz, Vitinhia, Bissouma, Sangare, Kamara, Palhlinha, Parades, Neves, Tielemans all are / were available this summer and our back up for De Jong…. is Rabiot? The board is absolutely clueless but Ten Hag isn’t free of blame for sanctioning this silly move.
From’t old Twitter
From’t old Twitter
Nobody with someone to answer to can be afforded unconditional support (hell waiting a few months is conditional support). This is a football manager, not a cult leader. Yes, it's early, but I don't see anyone saying sack him yet. They are concerned about the transfer targets and lineup after the first match.
Ridiculous isn’t it?
Criticising the window for being too little too late is absolutely fair enough. Finding fault with the few players we have managed to bring in is completely uncalled for.
What’s particularly annoying is people moaning about Malacia being an unnecessary “backup”. Did people not watch Shaw jogging around looking completely uninterested yesterday?
I wonder if he is just handcuffed. I refuse to think he wants these signings
”This is your lot or nothing at all.” Which option do you think he should choose?
Signing anybody isn't a solution. If all options are shit, I'll prefer giving some youngsters a chance. Not like anyone is expecting anything from the club this season.
Depressing. ETH is just being setup to fail.
Like i said a week ago if he's not a miracle maker we'll be out of top 4 race by end of December.
It's absolutely insane how the board doesn't realize how shit some of the players are.
It's absolutely insane how the board doesn't realize how shit some of the players are.
There’s nothing new around here. More often than not, people here on the Caf were usually exasperated by SAF’s team selections.
I’ll never forget Scholesy’s legendary “even if we win 100-0 it was the wrong selection” rant. It sits high up in the RedCafe pantheon of legendary moments. At least Scholesy attacked the space, though.
If only we’d realised back then how bad our fall from grace would be.
You put kids in too early and there is a strong likelihood of ruining them. Using them sporadically and in a calculated manner where they can be taken out of the team for their own good is always the preferred method.
As much as I’d like to see some of them get their chances, relying on them is an absolute no-no and that’s where we’re at right now given some of our starters are not fit to be starters. For all the flack that can be heaped upon Rabiot, he’s a better player than McTominay and would claim a spot on our starting xi - we’re at the stage where a manager is going to be desperate for solid, dependable options, which most kids simply aren’t and cannot be until they are truly ready for the rigours of first team football, and by that, we’re talking more about the mental side of the game and the pressures and demands.
We really need to stand by ETH, we can’t just turn on him quickly, while we all know the board are constantly fecking up. All the other managers we hired after SAF were able to spend a lot more than 55m (so far), I don’t think we can really judge him accurately until we see where we are at by the end of the season. I know the emotions are high and rightly so, because everyone is fed up after 9 years of no premier league trophy, but we should stand by ETH and give him time to implement his style.
Excellent post.
Don't want to use this word, but some of the stuff since yesterday has been highly embarrassing.
Actually dreading the chat if we lose the next 2 matches.
Who's rationale is that? Cause as far as I can tell, Ten Hag worked with Arnautovic only before 2010, when he was Assistant Coach at Twente. That's quite a while ago...
Largely disagree with this post.
At every club, evaluation of performance starts with day one on the job. It’s no different in real life jobs. If you flip burgers, but you are constantly burning one side, your manager will talk to you, even on the first day. I don’t understand why Ten Hag is above criticism, even this early in the season. His fingerprints are all over this transfer window, these are his players. He made the decision to spend in non-critical areas, ignoring priorities like RB and DM to buy another CB and a back up LB. He has decided to stay the course with FDJ, despite the fact that the transfer is incredibly complicated. He should have moved for another DM 6 weeks ago.
Secondly, I feel we can question his tactics, his substitutions, whatever, and still support him. I don’t think he should be sacked! I do think he and the squad were not well prepared for Brighton, or he underestimated them. This is the Premier League. Even small clubs have quality players and full internationals. Very different from mid table clubs in the Eredivise.
I’m less concerned about results, more concerned about performances. If we had controlled the game from start to finish, had many chances, but couldn’t finish, okay, fine. But that wasn’t the case and there were large periods of the game where Brighton looked to be the better squad Because they were out-playing us.