Eriksen and Martial

Desert Eagle

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We'd be lucky if both make 10 appearances combined from now till the end of the season. Expect nothing from both, if we're lucky we might get a couple good games each.
 

kouroux

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Martial should be back for the final and Eriksen in 4/5 weeks.

What difference to the run in can the two make?

Feels like we’ve yet to really see a full strength squad this season. One comes back, another drops out.

When you look at getting these two back, along with the return of Sancho and the additions of Sabitzer and Weghorst, you have to say we do have an interesting variety of options across the pitch.
Eriksen not much at all because by then I doubt the manager would wanna play him that much and we'd be in the most important games of the season
Martial, (a massive) IF he can stay fit, has a good role to play IMHO
 

Santoryo

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In theory it should make us stronger but I'm not expecting Martial to remain fit.
 

2Injurytimegoal

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I am sorry but Martial shouldn't be near anywhere to this team, he don't have the desire, very low work rate, rather give Pellstri or even play WW as a number 9.
 

Borys

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I've come to peace with the fact Martial is gone for the season. It's a coping mechanism. Any game he plays is really a bonus. And he's might and day compared to Weghorst.

Eriksen... Well that is a mystery. We don't seem to struggle in midfield, we seem stronger in second half as well. Actually he would make us more suspect defensively in the last 5 games (as they were all very intense). But we will miss him against weaker teams.

I am a bit surprised how well we're doing without Eriksen.
 

Sandikan

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Read this as Martial being available for the Europa final for a minute!!

Thought that was a pretty bleak prediction of when he'll be back, though you wouldn't be that surprised.
But did think it was a bit presumptuous bearing in mind we're still about 12 rounds off the final.
 

ROFLUTION

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Eriksen... Well that is a mystery. We don't seem to struggle in midfield, we seem stronger in second half as well. Actually he would make us more suspect defensively in the last 5 games (as they were all very intense). But we will miss him against weaker teams.

I am a bit surprised how well we're doing without Eriksen.
That’s a lazy interpretation and something you cant know for sure.

Could also go the other way with him being better than Sabitzer.
 

ROFLUTION

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Weird lack of appreciation on the caf for Eriksen.
Lazy scapegoatism.

When you look for theoretical situations that cant be proven to bash a player then that’s just what it is. “Would we beat Barcelona with him? Would we lose more points in the last 5?”

No one on earth can tell. Why the need to bash him? Next up: Eriksen will be thrown into the conversation of either Newcastle or Liverpool. Someone will find a way.
 

Borys

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That’s a lazy interpretation and something you cant know for sure.

Could also go the other way with him being better than Sabitzer.
Well it's all speculation isn't it? That's the point of commenting here. I've seen teams running around Eriksen easily, what Fred gives us is that more secure midfield. We lose something else that only Eriksen offers on the ball, but still we've not been struggling for goals lately.
I don't get the Sabitzer comment. Sabitzer played DM so far for us. We don't even know how good he is in Eriksen position.

It's not bashing Eriksen, just recognising Fred stepped up and he's been doing really well job when paired with Casemiro.
 

Roane

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Isn't the issue with Martial that he had some injury under Ole that didn't get treated or was misdiagnosed which has resulted in him being a crock when on loan and since coming back?

I'm sure I read that this continuous breaking down was linked to something from then.
 

DarkXaero

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Fred's a good option off the bench. If eriksens fit, he starts over Fred.

Hilarious this is even being debated. Fred's been terrible up until the 2nd half today and suddenly he's a better option than eriksen. Nonsense.
This is nonsense actually.
 

kthanksbye

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Genuine question. Do we eliminate Barcelona if it was Eriksen instead of Fred in both legs?
Don't thin Wout plays if Eriksen is available, pretty sure Case Fred and Erisken play in midfield and we have more control of the game and create more chances. I'd say we'd have beaten them.
 

ROFLUTION

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Well it's all speculation isn't it? That's the point of commenting here. I've seen teams running around Eriksen easily, what Fred gives us is that more secure midfield. We lose something else that only Eriksen offers on the ball, but still we've not been struggling for goals lately.
I don't get the Sabitzer comment. Sabitzer played DM so far for us. We don't even know how good he is in Eriksen position.

It's not bashing Eriksen, just recognising Fred stepped up and he's been doing really well job when paired with Casemiro.
But among the 5 games you refer to wasnt with Fred next to Casemiro for the league games. It was a Fred that got run over by Leeds and couldnt put a foot right in many moments. Sabitzer did okay, but not much suggests Eriksen would be worse. So if we’re gonna speculate at least do it with nuances and not based on two great halves against Barcelona.

Eriksen would also move Wout out probably and then we’d probably hold on to position more / play faster, but no one can say these things with certainty. That’s my hatch. A lot of people just claims these things with certainty over Eriksen. He’s been great this season, so why the need to conclude all sort of doomsday theoretical scenarios with him?
 

Glorio

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they arent the same player at all, no point in comparing them. Its like saying Bruno is far better than McTominay.
They play the same position though, Bruno and McTominay don't, so you can definitely make a direct comparison, and Martial is light-years ahead of Wout
 

Borys

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But among the 5 games you refer to wasnt with Fred next to Casemiro for the league games. It was a Fred that got run over by Leeds and couldnt put a foot right in many moments. Sabitzer did okay, but not much suggests Eriksen would be worse. So if we’re gonna speculate at least do it with nuances and not based on two great halves against Barcelona.

Eriksen would also move Wout out probably and then we’d probably hold on to position more / play faster, but no one can say these things with certainty. That’s my hatch. A lot of people just claims these things with certainty over Eriksen. He’s been great this season, so why the need to conclude all sort of doomsday theoretical scenarios with him?
You seem to be very defensive with all this "it's not certain", "theoretical scenarios" - I don't see why, it's not like I'm bashing Eriksen here am I? Do I need to add to every post that I rate him very high on the ball and he's been crucial to our success this season?

Anyway, it's more about appreciation for how good Fred has been while Eriksen is out. So let's talk about facts.
Last games that Fred started since Eriksen got injured:
1. vs Barcelona, paired with Casemiro, goal, win 2-1
2. vs Leicester, paired with Sabitzer, assist, win 3-0
3. vs Barca, paired with Casemiro, assist, draw 2-2
4. vs Leeds, paired with Sabitzer, win 2-0
5. vs Leeds, paired with Sabitzer, draw 2-2
6. vs Crystal Palace, paired with Casemiro, win 2-1
7. vs Nottingham forest, paired with Casemiro, goal, win 2-0

Prior to that, he started only 2 games in EPL (2-1 win vs City, and 2-0 win vs Tottenham where he got a goal). In all games he started this season (15) he's got 3G+2A. In whole season he's on 5G+2A. Eriksen is on 2G+9A (playing 40% more minutes more compared to Fred).

Eriksen has been doing outstanding job for a natural Attacking Midfielder playing in midfield. But kudos to Fred who is also contributing when called. There is no debate over which one of Eriksen and Fred are better on individual level, however there should certainly be a debate on who is a better fit for the team in midfield role. I hope we add Sabitzer to that debate soon as well.

I think it's pretty clear now that Casemiro is the key player to our success in midfield, I'm just glad that we have options to pair him with. The only "speculation" worth discussing is if Eriksen would make make us better in the games we drew. Since we lost points in those because we conceded 2 goals in each, and both were very intense end-to-end games where Eriksen weaknesses off the ball are most exposed, I will "speculate" that we were better with Fred there. After all it's not a debate which one of them are better defensively. Just like it's not a debate which one is better on the ball.

disclaimer, just to make sure: I do rate Eriksen very high, I love watching him play football, and he does make us better on the ball, but he is not perfectly suited to 2 man midfield in high intensity games where there's a lot of defending to do and we've seen that issue already.

We have not suffered yet because of lack of Eriksen. I would imagine that might change when we play a team that is dropping deep and we need that extra creativity, shot from distance, a spark. But so ETH has done very well with considering his options in midfield.
 

DWelbz19

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AM9 is coming back to full fitness and will win us the Europa and the PL
 

Lee565

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Problem is martial will be injured again after 2 matches
 

Jeffthered

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Martial isn't even reliable on the rare occasions when he's fit. I wouldn't be banking on anything from him after weeks out.
Martial has had another 'Martial' season.. dominated by injuries, when he is fit he rarely shows it, lacks consistency, scores a few goals, one or two look very lovely. No great impact at all.

We would all welcome a Martial return that reflects the ETH attitude, but I haven't seen it. I think he'll make little difference, hope he can prove us wrong.

Ericksen coming back will be fantastic. Fantastic.
 

bosnian_red

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If Martial is fit to be on the bench in the final than that's nice for his 1 match availability to be now. But generally I'm not going to count on him to be fit for more than 1 game. He's basically not an option.

Eriksen probably won't play any serious part unless we make it to the end of the cups.
 

DWelbz19

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Isn't the issue with Martial that he had some injury under Ole that didn't get treated or was misdiagnosed which has resulted in him being a crock when on loan and since coming back?

I'm sure I read that this continuous breaking down was linked to something from then.
He claimed in an interview in France that he played for 3-4 months under Ole under injury - to the point where he couldn’t sprint properly. That then led to his massive spike downward in form, and why he ended up on loan
 

redcucumber

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Fred's a good option off the bench. If eriksens fit, he starts over Fred.

Hilarious this is even being debated. Fred's been terrible up until the 2nd half today and suddenly he's a better option than eriksen. Nonsense.
:houllier: Fred has been terrible up until the 2nd half of today's game?! C'mon.. I know we all have our preconceived ideas and biases that we struggle to overcome, but you're being silly.
He claimed in an interview in France that he played for 3-4 months under Ole under injury - to the point where he couldn’t sprint properly. That then led to his massive spike downward in form, and why he ended up on loan
Ouch. If true (and it's not just Martial trying to reapportion responsibility for his own ailing body), that's a seriously damaging indictment of Ole as manager and as a custodian of these young players. You can accept tactical and man management deficiencies, but forcing players into dodgy physical situations by forcing them to play through injury is significant negligence. Something similar was said of Rashford during Ole's time here, but it's very difficult to know as surely the players themselves are pushing to play, medical team will sign off etc. Sad situation, though, as Martial could have been something special (saying that his lack of application has always been a mark against him as well, which has little to do with injury).
 

RORY65

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The Europa League final?

I’d take a one-legged Tony over Wout any day of the week and twice on (final day) Sunday.
This season has been really frustrating for him, apparently he looked really sharp in pre-season and although he probably was never going to be reliable enough to be the long-term option he could have had a big season for us (I thought he was great when he came on against Liverpool). We're coming up to March and he's not yet played 10 league games, even if he gets fit now he's playing catch up in terms of sharpness but at least having another option could be useful given how congested our schedule will continue to be.
 

Siorac

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Yes of course Bruno and McTominay "different players", but there's nothing that McTominay does or can possibly ever do that comes anywhere close to what Bruno does on a regular basis."
Well if we ever need a makeshift CB I'd rather have McTominay over Bruno there. But that's about it.
 

MadDogg

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Ouch. If true (and it's not just Martial trying to reapportion responsibility for his own ailing body), that's a seriously damaging indictment of Ole as manager and as a custodian of these young players. You can accept tactical and man management deficiencies, but forcing players into dodgy physical situations by forcing them to play through injury is significant negligence. Something similar was said of Rashford during Ole's time here, but it's very difficult to know as surely the players themselves are pushing to play, medical team will sign off etc. Sad situation, though, as Martial could have been something special (saying that his lack of application has always been a mark against him as well, which has little to do with injury).
From what Martial said, he was ok with playing through the injury as the team needed him. But when he was struggling to do so and his form was plummeting, he felt like Ole left him out to dry and didn't defend him and state that he was playing through injury. The fans and media just turned on him and said he was terrible and lazy, not knowing there was a reason he was struggling and that he was doing the best he could at the time.
 

Ramshock

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They play the same position though, Bruno and McTominay don't, so you can definitely make a direct comparison, and Martial is light-years ahead of Wout
They don't really though do they? Martial for most of his career has been on the left. They both can play centre forward yes but so can Rashford however they are different players for different systems and in no way comparable.
 

OverratedOpinion

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Well we do know if Martial can string a run of fitness together for a couple of months that he can score a lot of goals. I am not hopeful it will happen based on the last couple of years but if it does then it'll be a great help.

Hopefully Sabitzer picks up his performances (not that he has been bad) and we can ease Eriksen back in.
 

Zlatattack

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I don't expect Martial to be match fit very often, but i'd love to see him fit again. He offers so much more than wghorst.

We shouldn't rush Eriksen back, but once he's back he'll add creativity to the midfield and give us some good options.
 

Glorio

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They don't really though do they? Martial for most of his career has been on the left. They both can play centre forward yes but so can Rashford however they are different players for different systems and in no way comparable.
Right now and for the past 2 full seasons at least, Martial and Wout have been primarily CFs, that's their position. Martial might have been a LW in the past but those days are long gone.

The way they approach the game may be different, but they play the same position. And if that's the case, they can definitely be compared holistically in terms of what they give the team as strikers.

It's a simple Q, who is the better CF between Wout and Martial?
 

Hughie77

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Can't see Eriksen being fit in 4 to 5 weeks?. Martial seems to break down after every time he plays from his previous injuries if we can get 30mins out of him on Sunday if needed all well and good, can't see it myself. Imo Eriksen will be out till end of season
 

Ramshock

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Right now and for the past 2 full seasons at least, Martial and Wout have been primarily CFs, that's their position. Martial might have been a LW in the past but those days are long gone.

The way they approach the game may be different, but they play the same position. And if that's the case, they can definitely be compared holistically in terms of what they give the team as strikers.

It's a simple Q, who is the better CF between Wout and Martial?
Sigh okay tiny brain. Player A is better than player W. Good for you..heres a cookie.
 

Oldyella

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Read this as Martial being available for the Europa final for a minute!!

Thought that was a pretty bleak prediction of when he'll be back, though you wouldn't be that surprised.
But did think it was a bit presumptuous bearing in mind we're still about 12 rounds off the final.
I'm sure by the time that final comes around, if we make it, we would still be discussing if he might be fit or not, just not from this injury, but the next couple he gets between now and then
 

Glorio

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Sigh okay tiny brain. Player A is better than player W. Good for you..heres a cookie.
Unnecessary juvenile tone there. It always intrigues me how folks quickly descend to snide comments and insults because of a frankly mild debate. :houllier:

There's been no bad blood in this debate so far, we just hold different views and I was articulating mine further after your response with my reasoning. We could just agree to disagree like adults and go our separate ways, it's allowed.