I understand where you're coming from.
Ethan Laird
- Thread starter Adnan
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Imagine if Liverpool had sent TAA to the Championship to 'iron out his flaws'.
TAA is a generational talent tbf. Laird might be a similar category, but we've just bought a £50m RB who also needs a lot of game time to develop.
If we applied the "game is still full of errors - needs to go to the championship" yardstick everytime a young player (in this case, clearly a very talented one) came through, we would've loaned the lot of them over the years.
Sorry, I'm talking more about the suggestion that Williams should've spent time on loan to be honest.
He might not be as gifted but that's no disgrace - he's a big talent in his own right and has been highly regarded for some time. The fact he's edging an England international towards the bench means he's more than capable of going straight into the team and flourishing.
If we're going to loan out any of our full backs I'd probably just loan Dalot out at this point, Laird's had the slight benefit of weekly U23 football and youth football for the last few years which has allowed him to develop his game. Dalot, on the other hand, has had much more limited game time in any capacity and it's unlikely he's kicked on, although it's hard to say where he is in his development due to his constant injuries.
The game is harsh. They’re not my children or friends, just saying it as I see it. Under normal circumstances, Williams would not be our first choice LB by now. There are teenagers in world football where, even if you have a competent first teamer, they will put legitimate pressure on them for their shirt. Williams is not one of those teenagers, and Shaw isn’t one of those competent first teamers. If Shaw was the player we expected him to be, at 24 now, Williams would not seriously be fighting him for first choice now. Trent took Clyne’s spot, Clyde who was a competent international full back himself. Trent is that good, as you should have to be to be a regular at his age.
Nobody is saying Williams is useless. Him going on loan isn’t punishment, it’s for his development, but typically our mollycoddling youth besotted fans can see no wrong with our kids
Dalot has played more football over the last 2.5 season and at a far higher level. Laird has spent a considerable amount of time injured and playing no football.
I agree Dalot should be loaned out though.
Or we’d have just said ‘game is full of errors therefore they will be an understudy for now’, as is normal in football with 18/19 year olds at top clubs, unless they are amongst the best young talents in the game. If they are not, and they find themselves as regulars in the first team, then the senior who is supposed to be ahead of them is clearly not good enough for the club, as is the case here.
Going on loan is no disgrace either. It’s football. Reece James is a bigger talent than Williams and was sent to play regular football to develop his game to a level where he was not only a promising young player (woo, let’s all clap for you, you have talent), but a player good enough to play for Chelsea.
If we slip into this habit of niceties with our young players we will simply keep falling behind.
Is Williams anywhere close to being in the conversation for the best LB in the PL? No. For HIS standard, that is perfectly fine for now (insert mitigation about his age, experience etc. We get it). But for OUR standards, a team who wants to be the best, why is it fine to have a first choice LB who is not amongst the best in the league? Because we don’t want to be harsh, great kid etc? Nothing wrong with him doing a year in the Championship so that he can come back genuinely good enough. Perhaps he’s good enough to be Bristol City’s LB right now but not United’s.
The Trent you speak of still has errors in his game yes, but is also in a position to call himself one of the best in his position in the league RIGHT NOW. That’s why he should not be on loan, but developing in the Liverpool team.
Trent's game is also full of defensive errors, he just has a better environment to get away with it. I do agree that some players may benefit going out on loan if they haven't fully made the step up to first team football, like Chong, Gomes, Garner, etc. Williams has already broken through and as long as he is learning, is far better doing it with us than some championship team that doesn't care about his development and just needs results.The game is harsh. They’re not my children or friends, just saying it as I see it. Under normal circumstances, Williams would not be our first choice LB by now. There are teenagers in world football where, even if you have a competent first teamer, they will put legitimate pressure on them for their shirt. Williams is not one of those teenagers, and Shaw isn’t one of those competent first teamers. If Shaw was the player we expected him to be, at 24 now, Williams would not seriously be fighting him for first choice now. Trent took Clyne’s spot, Clyde who was a competent international full back himself. Trent is that good, as you should have to be to be a regular at his age.
Nobody is saying Williams is useless. Him going on loan isn’t punishment, it’s for his development, but typically our mollycoddling youth besotted fans can see no wrong with our kids
I didn't actually realise Dalot had played more, to be fair. I know they both had their injury issues but for some reason I figured Dalot's kept him out for longer.
Clyne wasn't a better fullback than Shaw. His game was full of errors himself, just as it is with an international fullback like Shaw. TAA's game is still not without errors, and it especially wasn't when he first arrived. His potential and talent gave him the chance, the fact he took his chance and performed better than Clyne for the most parts made sure he cemented his place. It is very similar to the scenario we're seeing with Williams and Shaw to be fair. Very similar.
Isn't this thread about Laird anyways?
I get what you're saying, and the lack of depth and planning has exposed this issue with 2 kids who I think would've benefited from your loan suggestion i.e. Gomes and Chong.They would clearly have benefited from a season of regular football. They're currently not ready to be starters or the "understudy" as you put it.
I disagree with Williams though. At the very least he is most certainly capable of playing the understudy role and therefore doesn't need the benefit of being loaned to the Championship. The fact that he finds himself in the first-team ahead of Shaw makes him the lucky recipient of having a sub-standard first-team player ahead of him (lucky for him, not so much for the club). Agreed that he's nowhere near being the best LB in the league, but he absolutely has a role to play in this squad and not on loan somewhere else - whether that be as a backup to a shiny new LB that isn't Shaw or not should be the question.
*Edited to include quotes
While I don't disagree, when he's our best choice right now (and I honestly think he is) he needs to be here. If he's playing regularly here he'll get more from it that playing regularly or maybe bench warming elsewhere.
It all depends on how much game time players are getting on loan or at home. If Greenwood was getting no game time this season it would have been a missed oppertunity for him to have had a loan as it is he's getting a sensible amount of minutes and is taking his chances well. Arguably you could say that the likes of Chong and Gomes with way less minutes could have done with going on loan.
Trent is the best in the league in his position, despite his errors. If he was not, and just ‘promising’ or ‘talented’, he’d have no business being Liverpool’s first choice RB right now.
Williams broke through due to him being next in line, when nobody else is available. That’s not an achievement in itself. We want him to be breaking through under circumstances in which he will be putting in performances that are outdoing an already good enough first choice. That is what is happening with Greenwood slowly, and will likely continue over the next couple of years until he takes Martial’s position. I predict Laird will break into the team at some point, and that would not be because Wan Bissaka is useless. It would be because he can’t be kept back any more. Williams has gotten in through the back door, which for him personally, is fantastic, but for us, just leaves us in a position where we have a regular LB who is currently not good enough to be our regular LB. if he were, he’d be amongst the best LBs in the league, as Manchester United’s first choice should surely be in the top 5 or 6 left backs, no?
I agree that he should be here now. In my first post, I stated that ‘if our LB situation wasn’t so dire, he’d be on loan now’. The fact that we have found ourselves in a position where we absolutely need him right now, and starting weekly at that, is not ideal. That’s all.
If Shaw was fit, under normal circumstances, Williams would probably be preparing to go on loan this month, at least but for Young’s departure. We’d likely want to have Shaw and Young as regular options at LB, and if that were the case, I doubt Williams would have simply forced his way past them by now. He’d likely go on loan and come back better for it. United fans are (understandably) so protective of anything young from the academy. It’s not an insult for a good 19 year old LB to go on loan. The idea is simple - he is too good for reserves, but not good enough to be a regular here yet, and we are already adequately covered in his role, as all good teams would hope to be. Let him come back ready. Unless you’re Mason Greenwood, who is one of the best in the world, and can force your way into the team on merit at 17. But it isn’t to be the norm to just keep putting kids from the academy into the first team when they are not ready to be amongst the best in their roles yet. That will naturally only lead to us not having one of the best teams.
We should have loaned Rashford out to the championship too, after the 1st season. Come to think of it, Martial too. And Greenwood next season. They would have developed into United quality players by now.
Laird and Dalot are going to get more football now Young is gone. This is the season to be trying these players out. At least In laird and Gomes cases bringing them on at the end of home matches we are winning. EL matches etc. Take them on tour and then decide for next season. I’d rather loan out Dalot than laird at this point too. Dalot needs to play more at his age and we spent a lot of money on him. I’d loan him back to Portugal for the second half of the season if sporting would have any use for him. I am aware we are pretty bare at the WB position but out of the 2 he’s the one I’d loan this season
No shame in a loan, quite a few quality players have developed from them.
Oh absolutely. Williams is in becase of Shaws issues and had now given the manager a decision to make becase of the way he's taken his chances. Seeing him bursting into the oppo box and winning penalties has been rather refreshing but its basically all becase Shaw hasn't been fit.
On the flip side, if we can end up with a team filled with the likes of Rashford, Greenwood, Williams, Laird, McT, Tuanzebe etc that are playing on merit week in week out, it can only bode well for the next few years.
I’d argue that playing regularly for a good side in the Championship is a better loan experience than playing in the Premier League - often in and out of a side that is fighting it out in the bottom half.
Mount and Abraham are starting week in, week out at fourth-placed Chelsea. Last season, they were given the luxury of having the responsibility to spearhead a promotion chase. They get a flavour of (relative) success. It’s a significantly more appropriate loan deal.
Laird, or Williams, wouldn’t be above it. The latter is needed here right now, obviously.
Mount and Abraham are starting week in, week out at fourth-placed Chelsea. Last season, they were given the luxury of having the responsibility to spearhead a promotion chase. They get a flavour of (relative) success. It’s a significantly more appropriate loan deal.
Laird, or Williams, wouldn’t be above it. The latter is needed here right now, obviously.
No shame at all. I have always believed Redcafe members understand football better than ignoramus managers like LVG, Mourinho and Ole.
As talented as he is, still think Ethan Laird is behind Timbo and Diogo Dalot if we need to 'spell' AWB over the coming months.
Yea, I mean, given current circumstances, I am happy Williams is here now. But I do accept that it means that LB is yet another position we can say we don’t have a current top class player in presently. They start to add up, and at a point, you simply can’t expect too much of the team anymore.
I personally doubt we’d have all of the players you mentioned in the first XI. I mean, it’s possible, but then we won’t be back to our ‘glory days’ with such a team. I don’t think 3 of the 6 you mentioned have potential to be in the very top bracket, and football has changed a lot since we were last good. The other teams will just fill their sides with the best players. We can’t afford to be sentimental at all with our rebuild. Best players possible for the job I say. I honestly think Greenwood and Laird will eventually meet that standard, a standard where they are better or equal to whatever we could get on the market, and in which case, I couldn’t happier for them to be regulars. But if I see our team filled with academy players when I know we could easily do better due to some attachment we have to them, I won’t be pleased.
I think to play a lot of academy players they need to prove it on loan for a season or 2 first. Making big mistakes at united level scrutiny can basically ruin a career and for players under 21 I think it’s the fairest way to do it unless there’s an injury crisis etc and the player really takes his chance or is a freak player like Rooney Ronaldo etc . No harm if a youngster comes in for a few games due to the squad being small and doesn’t set the world alight. That can happen a lot with seasoned pros too. Starting off a season with untested young players only is mistake one of the richest clubs in the world should not be making though.
All of you lot talking about loans for Dalot or Laird are mental. Our squad is paper thin, one of Dalot or Laird will always be injured, all of our 3 RB's offer something different and Dalot can even play RW (where we really only have 1 other player in that spot, James). They'll all get plenty of games if they're fit over a full season and a little competition never hurt a team.
No, we should keep Laird. He should be above both Dalot and TFM in the pecking order for the RB spot. He can play left-back too. I can't wait to see him regularly in the first team. he's ready to fight for a spot without a loan.
Even at our very best we still had players that were simply good enough around the stars.
As long as they are there on merit I don't much mind where they came from.
I don’t think it’s even arguable, loans to relegation PL sides are frankly a waste of time. Especially for attacking players. They play shit football, barely touching the ball, and typically the manager gets fired half way through and when things are going bad the first player dropped will always be the young loan player for the shit 30 year old who is experienced. Then the new manager doesn’t want them either. Loan to a stable team at the top in a lower league will always be better.
You dont learn more in the Championship than in the EPL ffs. Absolutely no reason for Williams to take a step down unless we want to take his development out of our hands.
So essentially your notion that Williams should be loaned out is because he didn't force anyone out of the team and got in through lack of options all the while ignoring the fact that he's actually now in the team on merit
Your disregarding of him suggests he's had obvious defensive flaws when the fact is he's been defensively excellent since coming in, certainly better than TAA was 2 years ago when he was starting week in week out for Liverpool (note how they never even thought about loaning him out back then)
Also disregarding Williams had 4 assist in 5 games for the U21's which probably contributed more to him actually getting a chance, rather than lack of options. He then took his chances and displaced Shaw because he offer something that makes the team function better. It is very similar to how TAA was introduced, and the reason for why they persisted with him despite his defensive adjustment period two years back.
All this talk has me confused about who TAA beat out at Liverpool for his spot. Wasn't it Milner, a converted central midfielder? Sounds awfully familiar.
Williams has been lucky to get the chance to be introduced this season but he's taken his chances extremely well so far and there's no reason to consider sending him elsewhere. Like others have said it'd be like us deciding to send Rashford on loan after his breakthrough season.
There will be rough patches, as there will with any young player, but he's getting plenty of game time and making the most of it so far.
Williams has been lucky to get the chance to be introduced this season but he's taken his chances extremely well so far and there's no reason to consider sending him elsewhere. Like others have said it'd be like us deciding to send Rashford on loan after his breakthrough season.
There will be rough patches, as there will with any young player, but he's getting plenty of game time and making the most of it so far.
No. Sometimes I really hate this place tbh. There is so much intentional answering of a point people feel like answering, rather than what was said.
We are where we are now. Williams is currently our best option at LB. Again. Under NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES and I repeat for the fourth time, IF OUR LEFT BACK SITUATION WASNT SO DIRE, Williams would be spending a season on loan in the Championship now.
There is no ‘so you’re saying Williams should be loaned out’. I didn’t say he should be loaned out. We have to deal with the situation as it is, which is Williams being the first choice. He has to learn on the job, and be United’s first choice prematurely, and make all his mistakes as first choice, not with the protection of being an understudy, or developing on loan.
My point is simple, it is not ideal that Williams is currently our first choice. It’s not as if he is a young Trent. He’s a different type of player, and not the type that usually finds themselves first choice at United at 19. He could well be by 23, but he’s not as prodigious as Trent or Alaba.
Hmm no white text
Based on his development from U18 into the U21 it was natural for him to at least be tested at PL level. Some players take to the level really well like Trent and Alaba. By all accounts, based on his first few games, by the end of the season he might belong in the same bracket. If he proves to have that special something you need to adapt to senior level really well like Trent or Alaba, then he'll be right there with them. I don't know if there is a particular type that usually finds themselves in those situations? If anything he is proving himself to be the exact right type to do that.
All your talking between your points here leads us to believe you don't rate his talent, which is fair enough but make it clear if so.
Shaw isn't a championship LB, it is not simply enough to show heart or a little bit of talent to displace him. You have to bring something to the team, and Williams clearly does. It is not like he is a bit talented out there playing for himself, he actually contributes to us winning games. It might not last, but if he continues he'll have earned it fairly just like Trent, and it wont be to the detriment of the club or team, unless of course you don't think he "is talented enough" anyways.
Youmg Trent was better going forward but far worse defensively than Williams. Honestly TAA used to be (and somewhat still is) awful defensively. He is still patchy defensively but protected by Klopp's set up and fantastic going forward. Do you honestly believe that TAA looked better at 19 (2 years ago in a better team) than Williams looks now? He certainly isn't a better defender. Why are you comparing Trent now to Williams when you should be comparing Williams to Trent of 2 years ago? 19 year old TAA was a good talent but a liability (ask any honest Liverpool fan) and I''d wager that Williams is at the same level now as Trent was (Williams is underrated in terms of his ball ability and better natural defender). Trent didn't need a loan at 19 so why does Brandon?
Edit: because this is the Laird thread: he has the potential to be far better than both TAA and Williams. He is as talented as Greenwood.
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Imagine the collective wisdom of the caf managing a team, would take the current Liverpool squad and endanger Derbys record.Hmm no white text
I understand where you're coming from with this but I think you've got it backwards. If anything, it would be far easier for Williams to come into a more successful side than it is into this one.
I think Williams has shown more potential in his early first team outings than Gary Neville when he first broke into the first team. Neville showed similar signs of inexperience but it was easier to cope with higher quality players around him in such a successful team. The example of Alexander Arnold example further demonstrates this.
There are no "normal circumstances". Opportunities don't always come at the exact perfect time in a player's development. Being able to take that opportunity when it comes is a huge part of making it to the first team through the academy.
Williams may not seem as talented as Laird but that is a very small part of which player will have a more successful United career. Phil Neville was tipped as the more talented Neville brother in the academy. Intelligence, winning mentality, and leadership count for a lot and Williams seems to have all of the above in spades.