Yeah and lots of us have been watching 'em since they were 14/15.
Ethan Laird
- Thread starter Adnan
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It's insane.
He's arguably been our player of the season and can still improve drastically.Manchester United fans: Cant have nice things.
Never heard that before, and if Manny Kaltz oops Aaron Wan-Bissaka nails the right-back spot down whilst Laird is still learning the ropes he may have no option but to play there.
Some of us never wanted AWB due to reasons already mentioned. And to break the transfer record on a RB that has never been good in attack and is unproven at the top level (Champions league) was silly, because I believe better players were available for less. Being a improvement on Ashley Young wasn't difficult to be fair, and I find it strange how, many of our fans believe he was good business ahead of all the options around Europe and even domestically.It's insane.
Manchester United fans: Cant have nice things.
I'm hoping he'll be the understudy to Wan Bissaka before long and will get his share of games which will be good for him at this stage in his deveopment.
It's incredible right?
We had Ashley Young, Valencia and Darmian for the last.... 6/7 years and yet when we finally purchase a decent RB people complain because he's not the one they wanted. Be fecking grateful that we finally signed a decent RB ffs!
Anyway, Laird is quality and it's only a good thing that we have one excellent RB in AWB and one decent prospect coming through to push him.
With Young most likely leaving at the end of the year, the timing with Williams and Laird is perfect really.
We've got Shaw, AWB, Dalot, Laird, Williams which is a very healthy pool. Wish we had that sort of depth in other areas!
I think Shaw will be gone too.
I don't understand this sort of post. Many of us wanted a modern day fullback and were against the signing of AWB because it was said he was weak in offense by people that had followed his career to date, including some Palace fans.
And just because we had Young, Valencia and Darmian last season shouldn't mean we should accept a player who is mediocre at RB due to his flaws in attack. And that too for a world record sum when there was absolutely better players than him around Europe of a similar age who wouldn't have cost as much. It was absolute madness to waste the £130m on AWB and Maguire for the reasons stated.
Dalot is likely to leave before Shaw. I can't see how he will get game times now especially when Williams can play on the right as well.
Kyle Walker still holds that record.
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Simon Stone mentioned it other time too, that fee was lower than Walker's.
Dalot at the very least is professional and makes a effort with his diet and still has time to make a impression at either RB or RW. But he could also go at the end of the season if he doesn't impress and may even push for a move due to developmental reasons.
Point still stands though.
It doesn't. Just because AWB has weakness in the attack (especially in crossing) doesn't mean he is mediocre. Defensively he is brilliant and by far the best in the league, he needs to step up in attacking, he has decent cross but doesn't try many of them. He should be bit brave in the attack.
He is a mediocre fullback in comparison to elite level fullbacks. And he he has to be compared to them due to what he cost. Compare him to Kimmich or even Marcelo (who I watched as youngsters) and he lags behind in the final third. Kostermann at Leipzig is considerably better too.
It's fine, I don't understand fans like you either, so it's all good. I'm only picking on your post, it could have been anyone else so don't take offense.
He's clearly not medicore. Yes, he isn't Alexander Arnold Trent, but we also don't use the same tactics as them. They rely on their fullbacks for creativity, we don't.
I was actually against signing Maguire in the Summer and indifferent about AWB, but I think both have been excellent this Season for new signings. Sure they can do better, but for players new to the squad they've been brilliant. AWB could probably express himself a bit more in the final third but I'm far happier about how brilliant he is defensively given the shite we've had to put up with in the last 7/8 years. We actually look defensively secure down the right channel.
Yeah and everyone we have is mediocre compared to the best ones in their position and elite players, including players like Laird, Greenwood. Just because he isn't as good as Kimmich or Marcelo doesn't mean he is mediocre, if that's the logic we are following then every footballer since 2006 is mediocre as Messi is in the league of his own with Ronaldo in and out of that level.
The players you mentioned:
- Klostermann hasn't even been playing as a consistent RB this season, he's been a utility player for them with Mukiele mainly playing at RB.
- Which Marcelo are you even talking about?
- Kimmich has been playing a mixture of RB and DM this season. 3 of his 4 assists come from when he was playing in defensive midfield.
This is the weakness, he is superb defensively winning insane number of tackles, his links up well with RWs and picks good passes but when it comes to final passes, he won't even try. The odd occasions when he puts in the cross, it's usually a good one and in the dangerous zone but for some reason he don't try it often.
I'd say its a mixture of confidence (new to the club, still unfamiliar with players), tactics and his ability. I still think us having a solid midfield would help out fullbacks be a little more confident going forward knowing they have actual decent cover in behind. It's clearly a weakness in his game though, it was the same at Palace. But it doesn't make him mediocre, christ.
Yeah, this is a good point too. We don't have sitting midfielder, both of our CMs bomb forward, so FB should be careful about their position. We need to sign good midfielders as priority, once we have at least 1 more good one our overall play should improve.
So you agree our £50m RB is mediocre in attack in comparison to the players I mentioned? I mean, shouldn't we be expecting a £50m RB to at least have the potential to rival them?
Laird and Greenwood cost nothing so not sure what the point of bringing them up was. If they had cost a premium then there would be a certain expectation too which is normal.
As for Laird, I think he's quality. The problem is i've never actually seen him defend in the matches i've watched, he's always attacking (which he's very good at doing) but the games i've managed to watch we've always been ontop so little for him to do at the back.
I've been banging on about the lad for a while though, he'll make it here even if as a squad option. He just oozes quality.
None of them rivals him in defense. There is more than 1 way to set up the team. I preferred more attacking FB but AWB has done really well this season and the way he wins the ball sets up counter attacking chances for us. He can improve in few areas as with any 21-22 year old players.
Maybe you didn't read it properly, every player who have played the game since 2006/2007 are mediocre as none of them are close to level of Messi. If we compare player to elite ones and then call them mediocre then everyone is in the last 12-14 years.
Fee is not his problem, just because we paid premium fee doesn't make him Dani Alves in attack, he is what he is and everyone knew what his strengths, weakness and areas of improvement before we signed him.
Yeah, love watching him play. The way he just turns the defender with just shoulder drops, if he can translate that to first team then we have a great RB as one more option. We will have 2 excellent RBs which is what we need, competition for places.
I'm glad we didn't plan our summer transfers based on our U18 players though, you never how how they step up, If they can step up then we will have better squad and always offload the last in pecking order player.
Anyone see potentially Wan-Bissaka playing in a back 3 with Laird as a wing back? Although I want Sancho and enjoy wingers like Dan James, I wonder if 352/532 is a better long term set up for us; especially with players like Rashford and Martial who maybe would work better as part of a 2 up top.
Laird seems quality though. A great character too.
Laird seems quality though. A great character too.
Yup, it also means with Laird rising up he will challenge Dalot for deputy. My hope for this Summer is we decide to cut our losses on Shaw and bring in another senior LB. Finally sell off Shaw and don't renew Young. I actually don't mind Shaw as much as everyone else on the forum, but just like Jones he is completely unreliable and you can't build your first team on players who simply cannot stay fit. Given Dalot can play on both sides of the pitch we could probably use him as backup for both.
LB:
- New | Senior Player
- Williams
- Dalot
RB:
- AWB | Senior Player
- Laird
- Dalot
Yeah, I was fan of Shaw and always defended him but his latest injury was the final nail for me. We can't rely on injury prone players, it's hard to build partnerships and cohesive units when you have such a unreliable player.
I like the FBs list you posted, Laird can play as LB too and Williams can play as RB. So we will have 3 FBs Dalot, Laird, Williams who can play on both sides. Next LB should be the one who can attack and put in dangerous crosses, that would bring very good balance to the team.
For this season I want Williams to get run of games, at least with Shaw still lacking fitness. He has potential to be at least good squad player.
When you buy a player for a premium sum he should at the very least have the potential to rival other top fullbacks or have the potential to. In Wan Bissaka's case he lags behind in a attacking sense and would struggle to even be a wingback at a top European club. A fullbacks role is alot more defined now and requires a player in such a role to tick both boxes of offense and defense at the top level. And from the evidence at hand he fails quite miserably in a attacking sense in comparison to players of a similar age. Bringing Messi up to make your point won't help Wan Bissaka being better than someone like Youcef Atal in offense.
Good post. Not sure why people can't be happy things look so promising moving forward. AWB is still a young player himself so why he's being compared to Marcello I don't know.
The team that dominated the league for last 3 years have Walker as FB and he isn't all that great at attacking. There is more than one way to set up the team.
Paying money won't change the player and I don't know why they should be getting shit for that. IIRC he is paid less than Lingard and he is 10X more important for the team than Lingard.
AWB won't be a wingback and might never be a good one, not sure why that's important as we don't play with wingbacks. None of the FBs you mentioned are anywhere close to AWB when it comes to defending. For example AWB made 3 assists last season, Walker had 1. Didn't stop City crushing every team. There is more than one way to set up the team and also more than one way to set up FBs role, they don't have to someone who whips the cross, they can be supporting cast and a link player too like Walker is/was.
Bringing Messi actually helps my point and to pick holes in your logic and I have already explained how.
He hasn't been a utility player for them at all. I've watched every Leipzig game this season. Kostermann is a key player for the way Nagelsmann adjusts his tactics and formation. Kostermann started the season at wingback with Mukiele playing behind him. He's been rested about 3 times, twice in the cup and once in the league from my recollection. He's started all but one league game and due to his excellent ability on the ball and tactical know how, Nagelsmann deploys him in different positions due to injury or suspension. With the exception of one game where he was deployed in midfield he has played the majority of the time at fullback or wingback. Ibrahima Konate's injury meant he covered for the injured CB in a back 3, but to say he's a utility player is wrong. Players like Kostermann bring out the best in a young high calibre coach like Nagelmann and is a very important player.
Marcelo the LB at Madrid. The one that is deemed by many on this forum to be average in defence but excells in attack.
Kimmich playing roles further forward is a testament to his ability as a footballer and doesn't invalidate the point I made about him being considerably better than Wan Bissaka at a similar age.
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So another young one has a decent game and the Caf believes he's the next messiah?
I guess TFM, Januzaj, Gomes, Chong hell even Tuanzebe don't ring any bells.
I guess TFM, Januzaj, Gomes, Chong hell even Tuanzebe don't ring any bells.
I've stated on here that Walker was a limited fullback on numerous occasions. City are bank rolled by a oil state and have numerous fullbacks that have the potential to play wingback. Cancelo is a new signing and he may not prove successful, but he has the potential to play at a high level in attack and has shown that at times at Juventus, Inter and Valencia.
I'm not giving shit to AWB. All I'm doing is staying consistent in my assessment on why I think we shouldn't have signed him.
My argument has always been that a fullback in the modern game must be good in attack and i've explained why. It's easier to coach defending than attacking IMO, and we as a club should've targeted a more offensive fullback because it has many tactical benefits for a coach. A benefit that is enjoyed by many around Europe and at home.
Bringing Messi up actually doesn't help your point, because i'm not comparing a RB to a forward and neither am I comparing any other player to the Goat. I made a comparison with other fullbacks at a similar age though, which I feel was the apt comparison.
We are just going in circles now. If you think Messi isn't good example then compare the best player in their position to the players who were very good but not as good. Like Messi vs Hazard and Hazard is mediocre.
Walker example shows how there is more than one way to set up the team. City being Oil team doesnt change anything, not sure how that is even relevant.
Hazard isn't mediocre because his technical qualities are at such a high level and he's proven in a major European league that he is top quality. But comparing him to arguably the greatest attacker in the history of the game would be unfair. AWB at the price paid, should be compared to players from the same position from a potential standpoint. Throwing Messi, Laird, Mason into the mix just veers away from a discussion that is very simple regarding a fullback that we paid a premium for, but lacks considerably in a attacking sense IMO.
Well you compared AWB to arguably the best attacking FB of all time.
Again transfer fee won't change the player. He won't be different player based on the fee. He is beast defensively and a decent attacker with weakness.
Walker with City showed how elite team can shit on any team with FB who isn't great at attacking. I haven't seen any team with poor attack and midfield that is elite though. That's where we should concentrate.
Hazard is mediocre btw compared to Messi, significantly inferior in every attribute.
Marcelo wasn't the only fullback I compared him to. Lets not forget the numerous others.
I know the transfer fee won't change the player. But questioning the signing and thought process behind it was is a valid concern, when there was superior options available for less IMO. Thankfully we have Laird who I hope we'll provide the spark at RB.
City showed with their bottomless pit of £££ that they could have strength in depth in literally every position which enabled them to have the best squad in the league. They could've won the league with a makeshift fullback, such was the strength in that squad.
You don't see elite teams with a poor attack and midfield because they don't let it come to that. Prioritising a CB and RB for a combined £130m and neglecting the midfield and attack is what contributes to a deterioration and being poor.
Hazard being mediocre to Messi has no relevence to what we're discussing.
City having bottomless pit of money don't change anything here, they still had Walker playing almost every game when available and they won the league comfortably as they had good midfield and attack. Like I said many times, there is no set way of playing, you can set up in many games and you can also set up team with different FB roles. Not everyone should be playing the same role, especially in the team like us with 0 defensive midfielders.
We have signed wrong managers all the time, somehow who can't set up the team properly.
There are elite teams who have FBs who aren't great at attacking but are decent contributors but there are no elite teams who have poor midfielders and attackers, like I said that's where we have to concentrate, not whether FB is the best attacker or can whip in crosses. Obviously the one who can attack helps the team but they arent the deciding players unless the team is set up like Liverpool or the FB is GOAT tier attacker like Marcelo.
Obviously Hazard has nothing to do with this thread but he is very important to the logic you have used. Just because AWB isn't as good as elite attacking FB means he is mediocre, in the same logic, Hazard not being as good as Messi means he is also mediocre. It's a straightforward comparison.
Anyways like I said we are just going in circles, simple point is AWB isn't mediocre(doubt anyone agrees with that and he was easily in top 3 RBs in PL last season). He isn't as good as TAA, Pereira at attacking but he is the best defensive FB in the league who is good on the ball and has good link up play. Football is also about finding the balance in the team, playing to players strengths and hiding their weakness by adding players who compliments them. Put a defensively weak FB in our team and they will look even poor as we defend and hit on the counter, put players like AWB in teams like Barca they look even worse as they are camped in final third. There is no 1 way of playing and many teams have showed how differently FB can be used, the same team used FBs in different roles.
City having a bottomless pit of money is relevant because they can blow £200m on just fullbacks. City would've won the league without Walker too such was the strength in depth in that squad. They have had quite comfortably the best squad in the league for a number of years now and having a limited fullback can easily be carried by the best midfield and attack in the league. They would've won a league title with a make shift fullback due their squad being comfortably stronger than the competition.
which elite team has a fullback as limited as AWB? Of course there isn't elite teams with poor midfields and attacks. Because those teams never let it get to the point where such a scenario would occur. And if it did, they wouldn't be a elite team. And a fullback being able to whip a cross in doesn't mean he's capable of being a top level fullback in attack. Theres much more to fullback play at higher echelons of the European game now, which is demanded of fullbacks in a attacking sense. The new breed of coaches like Nagelsmann and Rose who are considered two of the brightest young minds in the game, rely on their formations and strategies on attacking fullbacks/wingback due to flexibility which is very important to their game plan / tactics. The attacking fullback is a important part of a young progressive managers plans which is becoming even more obvious now. Elite teams who win elite competition don't have poor midfields or attacks that why they're elite. They also don't have limited fullbacks.
You bringing Messi up in comparison to Hazard can be discussed because both players are attackers. Bringing Messi up when discussing a fullback who is limited in attack isn't logical. I've brought up several fullbacks and not only Marcelo. Kostermann who cost Leipzig €1m and is still 23 was another along with Kimmich, Atal etc who are comfortably better as attacking fullbacks and provide tactical flexibility which is very important to a forward thinking progressive manager.