European Super League

[Maciej]

I've thought about it all yesterday and listened to Florentino Perez...

I am not a huge fan, but I'm pretty sure now that after a month everyone will forget the initial reaction, we'll love those European classics, UEFA won't ban anyone (not in this years' Champions League, all the players will play in Euro and World Cup as well).

It always happen when there's a huge change, doesn't it? We even moaned when four teams got immediately into group stages of UCL, not like it had been before when we had two and two other teams in qualifiations, so it's understandable that we all complain right now.

We expected that, to be fair, and if you didn't, you should have expected it. I'm not buying those words about money that we all need more money (no, only those owners do), but it's the world we live in and we'll get used to it anyway.

Welcome to the 20s.

 

[NinjaZombie]

The goal is to win the competition. There is too much emphasis on qualifying, the top 4 trophy has really messed up some perceptions.

By the same standards you can say that the CL became a plastic meaningless competition when they allowed for non-Champions to participate. So should it have been called the 'Champions and three runners up league'?

What do Barca and Real lose when they don't win the CL? They are back at in again next year no? But not winning it is a failure by itself.

Barca and Real are different from the English clubs because they have elections and socios and such. Their presidents need to bring trophies and success otherwise they get voted out.

The English clubs, in contrast, are fully owned by the billionaires. They won't be too bothered about the fact that they're not winning anything as long the the money keep rolling in. Which in this case, will be guaranteed. Every year. They don't even have to finish top four.

No more mucking around not buying Harry Maguire in the season you finish 2nd but then stumping up the money next season when you finish 6th.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Since it is effectively a replacement for the Champions League, where you rarely face the same teams over and over, this point is garbage. Plus, at least Man Utd vs Real Madrid in the Champions League would be a high stakes game since you have the jeopardy of being knocked out. In the ESL, if Utd are 8th and Real Madrid 6th then it's a nothing game, a friendly.

And in the Premier League you aren't facing the same teams either. The Premier League now is very different to what it was 15 years ago, which was very different to what it was when it began.

We face City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs every season and these are the games in the EPL that mean the most even if there is nothing riding on them.
Yes the EDL would replace the UCL but playing teams every year in one competition can be used to say how you would feel playing another team every year.

Now my main problem with the ESL is that if the league finished as it currently is Leicester and West Ham would deserve their place in the UCL. To take that off of them and give it to a team sitting 9th is against everything that I believe football should be about. So I am fundamentally opposed to the ESL.

 

[Fridge chutney]

What do you mean no consequence of failure? Do you think it will be easy to be the champions of a league that consists 12 of the best clubs in Europe? It will be like the hardest CL campaign ever, without enjoying the luck of the draw that Chelsea always gets for example. The consequence of failure is not winning it. And winning it will be harder than winning the CL.

No, winning it will not be harder than winning the CL, especially given that United have only been in the CL 50% of the time since Ferguson retired. This is because there's a consequence of failure: not being able to partake in a meritocratic competition.

In the Super Duper League, we could finish last, but who cares? We'll get another shot the following year. As long as we don't win, the rest doesn't matter.

 

[always_hoping]

What is a club in any case? Not the buildings or the directors or the people who are paid to represent it. It’s not the television contracts, get-out clauses, marketing departments or executive boxes. It’s the noise, the passion, the feeling of belonging, the pride in your city. It’s a small boy clambering up stadium steps for the very first time, gripping his father’s hand, gawping at that hallowed stretch of turf beneath him and, without being able to do a thing about it, falling in love.


Great quote by the late great Bobby Robson.

 

[el3mel]

The goal is to win the competition. There is too much emphasis on qualifying, the top 4 trophy has really messed up some perceptions.

By the same standards you can say that the CL became a plastic meaningless competition when they allowed for non-Champions to participate. So should it have been called the 'Champions and three runners up league'?

What do Barca and Real lose when they don't win the CL? They are back at in again next year no? But not winning it is a failure by itself.

That's just your goal really. You are talking from your own perspective only. If you are gaining ton of money regardless and will always qualify for the next year no matter what there's nothing much to lose by finishing 10th out of 10 teams in your group.

Barca and Real Madrid may have it easy to qualify to CL regularly but Serie A and PL clubs aren't. Inter Milan are only just returning to regular qualification to CL last 2 years. Milan hasn't been in CL for shit ton of time, and even freaking Juve are fighting to guarantee top 4 spot this year. In England, United, Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea have missed on qualifying to CL ton of times. You just took the only two teams who had it easy regularly qualifying and ignore the rest.

And you still didn't actually provide any thing these clubs will lose if they finish rock bottom in super league.

 

[Gasolin]

Does anyone really thinks FIFA will ban players from representing their countries? Are they really that naive to think that anyone will bother watching a World Cup without 150 of the best players in the world in it?

If they don’t do it, they will cease to exist. It’s an existential threat for them.

 

[Ixion]

The ESL is a rebranding of the CL. No one gives a shit about the corrupt bastards from uefa or fifa, because essentially there won't be a CL without those 12 teams. It would be the Scottish premiership where Bayern and PSG dick everyone for a year or two until they get bored and follow the other big clubs. Don't be naive.

Just stop, you''re making yourself look stupid. Just admit you don't know what rebranding means.

 

[sglowrider]

I've thought about it all yesterday and listened to Florentino Perez...

I am not a huge fan, but I'm pretty sure now that after a month everyone will forget the initial reaction, we'll love those European classics, UEFA won't ban anyone (not in this years' Champions League, all the players will play in Euro and World Cup as well).

It always happen when there's a huge change, doesn't it? We even moaned when four teams got immediately into group stages of UCL, not like it had been before when we had two and two other teams in qualifiations, so it's understandable that we all complain right now.

We expected that, to be fair, and if you didn't, you should have expected it. I'm not buying those words about money that we all need more money (no, only those owners do), but it's the world we live in and we'll get used to it anyway.

Welcome to the 20s.

This.

 

[Giggs86]

That's just your goal really. You are talking from your own perspective only. If you are gaining ton of money regardless and will always qualify for the next year no matter what there's nothing much to lose by finishing 10th out of 10 teams in your group.

Barca and Real Madrid may have it easy to qualify to CL regularly but Serie A and PL clubs aren't. Inter Milan are only just returning to regular qualification to CL last 2 years. Milan hasn't been in CL for shit ton of time, and even freaking Juve are fighting to guarantee top 4 spot this year. In England, United, Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea have missed on qualifying to CL ton of times. You just took the only two teams who had it easy regularly qualifying and ignore the rest.

And you still didn't actually provide any thing these clubs will lose if they finish rock bottom in super league.

The top 4 race will cease to exist, that I agree with. But with the cash injection teams with huge history and huge fan base like Milan will be able to be competitive again.

What will the clubs lose if they finish rock bottom? What do CL clubs lose when they knocked out of the competition? Nothing. You lose the chance of winning the trophy.

 

[Ixion]

I've thought about it all yesterday and listened to Florentino Perez...

I am not a huge fan, but I'm pretty sure now that after a month everyone will forget the initial reaction, we'll love those European classics, UEFA won't ban anyone (not in this years' Champions League, all the players will play in Euro and World Cup as well).

It always happen when there's a huge change, doesn't it? We even moaned when four teams got immediately into group stages of UCL, not like it had been before when we had two and two other teams in qualifiations, so it's understandable that we all complain right now.

We expected that, to be fair, and if you didn't, you should have expected it. I'm not buying those words about money that we all need more money (no, only those owners do), but it's the world we live in and we'll get used to it anyway.

Welcome to the 20s.

No, this is literally an existential threat to UEFA. If they have to ban teams they will, it won't just go away. If this happens the Premier League product will be ruined so the PL and the Government won't just allow that to happen.

 

[RatPack]

I do not see the point of watching games where there is no real consequences. No qualification and no relegation. This league will be the same as national leagues in the end. Some top teams and some teams always ending in the bottom of the league. But the bottom teams now does not have a reason to play the games.
I have loved the Premier league all of my life and I have been a Man Utd fan for just as long. But whats the point now. Nothing but money to fight for.

 

[kouroux]

I think the PL and the SL leagues will evolve as they tweak the SL. Many teams weren't that keen on the European Cup when it first started either, preferring to focus on their respective domestic leagues.

Maybe the pride or humiliation of getting your arse kicked on a global scale in a match against Barca, 5-1... I see you Arsenal may just give someone like Kroenke the incentive to pump some investment into it. Building the 'pride' of winning something takes time.

As the ESL progresses and allowing more teams into it, I can see two 'divisions' of 48 teams playing each other. This would eliminate the 'lack of competitive edge' that you get from lack of or very restricted need for qualifying or relegation.

I for one is very zen about it. There were massive changes some 30 years ago with the first attempt at the commercialisation of English football. There is a power shift from traditional broadcasters to content producers across the globe -- Disney wanting to take more control of their own content by being the deliverer themselves. Then the digital/IPTV broadcasters who have a lower costs base attacking after the terrestrial and then satellite broadcasters like BBC and then Sky and we have Amazon, Netflix and Google now inching its way into the traditional guys' sacred cows.

Personally, my back was broken when Roy Keane wanted to get paid £60k/week or he would leave United. I thought that was a disgusting amount of money to pay people to run around and kick a round ball.

I have been numbed to everything since. Little outrage left.

I share your general feeling. This amuses me more than anything else. My love for the game seriously decreased a few years ago. I don't care anymore about it, I say let it all burn

 

[Wilt]

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Doubt it Mr Greedy, Sporting or Porto more likely...

 

[Giggs86]

Just stop, you''re making yourself look stupid. Just admit you don't know what rebranding means.

Do you know what de facto means? I genuinely believe you are in denial. Forget about UEFA and their brand for a moment, no one cares about them. 12 of the 14 best clubs in Europe will leave UEFA to join the SL. On paper, UEFA can keep calling their trophy Champions League, Champions Cup, Pikachoo Cup, whatever. De facto, the CL will become the SL.

 

[Gasolin]

The top 4 race will cease to exist, that I agree with. But with the cash injection teams with huge history and huge fan base like Milan will be able to be competitive again.

What will the clubs lose if they finish rock bottom? What do CL clubs lose when they knocked out of the competition? Nothing. You lose the chance of winning the trophy.

The Milan clubs don’t deserve the cash injection if they are not good on the pitch. Either win it or get lost in History like so many clubs before them. There’s no divine right.

They want it to be a business? Xerox and Kodak got wiped out because they couldn’t keep up. Fight for the top by investing in teams as much as you can. If you can’t, you deserve to disappear like Xerox or Kodak.

A club is elite because it proves it’s an elite club by winning against everyone on the pitch.

 

[Drifter]

The 67 people who’ve voted that they’re in favour of this are a disgrace and have no interest in football, casual fair weather fans who have no idea what the games about or what it means to people. The people who are “waiting for more information” are just as bad. The information that’s already came out is enough to be disgusted at the greed of these yank owners ruining our game. How can you even call yourselves football fans let alone United fans? Jokers.

Yep, these are the casual fans that this competition are aiming for, legacy fans need not apply.

 

[kouroux]

They're gonna be competing to win the premier european club competition. Why would there be zero competitiveness. The reason they don't get this point is because it's pretty much a EPL thing. Madrid and Barca qualify for the CL every season without fail. I'm sure someone like Perez doesn't get the whole 'top 4' race thing.

Not all of them will, in the end only 2-3 teams will be good enough every year and since there is no risk not winning this league, no relegation, no missing out on serious financing, the likes of Arsenal, Spurs, Man Utd will just go through the motions, amassing money and not even needing to invest it in the team.

 

[el3mel]

The top 4 race will cease to exist, that I agree with. But with the cash injection teams with huge history and huge fan base like Milan will be able to be competitive again.

What will the clubs lose if they finish rock bottom? What do CL clubs lose when they knocked out of the competition? Nothing. You lose the chance of winning the trophy.

If you are knocked out of CL you might not have a chance to play in it again next year if you suck in your league. If you are knocked out of the group it hurts because you feel you wasted a chance in having a good campaign in an elite competition when you're not even sure if you will be back in it next year.

If you are knocked out of Super League you are back in it again next year regardless, try again next year and the next and the next. It doesn't matter when you will ever win it, you will keep getting chances every single year, there's no stacks. You aren't worried of wasting your chance in winning it this year because you have infinite number of opportunities in the future to keep trying, and you will still get ton of money by just playing.

 

[Gasolin]

Sounds like we can’t kick them out?

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[Abizzz]

Sounds like we can’t kick them out?

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UEFA doesn't have it's offices in Switzerland as a joke. They may decide against it (for TV money if nothing else) but if they really want to I have little doubt they'd just do it and face whatever people manage to throw at them.

 

[Ixion]

Do you know what de facto means? I genuinely believe you are in denial. Forget about UEFA and their brand for a moment, no one cares about them. 12 of the 14 best clubs in Europe will leave UEFA to join the SL. On paper, UEFA can keep calling their trophy Champions League, Champions Cup, Pikachoo Cup, whatever. De facto, the CL will become the SL.

It isn't about brand. The European Cup and Champions League literally belong to UEFA, I can't just set up my own football competition and declare I'm carrying over all European Cup wins into it, I have no connection to it or them. I can't suddenly declare ownership of Sir Matt's win in 68 and any of the other moments that came under UEFA. If they want to start a tinpot trophy they need to start their own history and not steal someone elses'. Also In 18 years on this forum Ive never blocked anyone but you're clearly just trolling people because no one is as dumb as you're acting and its tiresome so you're the first. Goodbye.

 

[Giggs86]

If you are knocked out of CL you might not have a chance to play in it again next year if you suck in your league. If you are knocked out of the group it hurts because you feel you wasted a chance in having a good campaign in an elite competition when you're not even sure if you will be back in it next year.

If you are knocked out of Super League you are back in it again next year regardless, try again next year and the next and the next. It doesn't matter when you will ever win it, you will keep getting chances every single year, there's no stacks. You aren't worried of wasting your chance in winning it this year because you have infinite number of opportunities in the future to keep trying, and you will still get ton of money by just playing.

This is all true but will apply the same way to the SL - you're getting knocked out early, you wait a full year until you get the chance again.

During Fergie's times, there were like 16 straight seasons when we were basically guaranteed to be in the CL every single year. Getting knocked out felt as bad as getting knocked out in our occasional CL cameos in the last decade.

 

[SilentWitness]

The other rank thing about this is that some of these clubs were furloughing and letting staff go because they were complaining about not having enough money while they were plotting this greedy little scheme at the same time. cnuts.

 

[Giggs86]

It isn't about brand. The European Cup and Champions League literally belong to UEFA, I can't just set up my own football competition and declare I'm carrying over all European Cup wins into it, I have no connection to it or them. I can't suddenly declare ownership of Sir Matt's win in 68 and any of the other moments that came under UEFA. If they want to start a tinpot trophy they need to start their own history and not steal someone elses'. Also In 18 years on this forum Ive never blocked anyone but you're clearly just trolling people because no one is as dumb as you're acting and its tiresome so you're the first. Goodbye.

Dude, are you getting paid by UEFA? No one cares about them. It's the teams that make the competition, not the random suits behind it. No need to be salty about it.

And the European Cup and Champions League belong to the clubs who won it, not to UEFA. UEFA might have organized the tournament but they are nothing but empty cash grabbing suits who are no better than the people behind the SL. Where is that romantic high moral stance on UEFA coming from?

 

[kouroux]

The other rank thing about this is that some of these clubs were furloughing and letting staff go because they were complaining about not having enough money while they were plotting this greedy little scheme at the same time. cnuts.

In the words of Drogba :" it's an effin disgrace!"

 

[red4ever 79]

This will destroy the quality of the premier league. These selfish six will be placing more emphasis on their JP Morgan exhibition games at Shea stadium, sponsored by HBO because there is a lot of $$ at stake, then at the weekend playing second string, or squad players in the EPL, because there is nothing riding on the EPL anymore. The EPL will be known as the Jolly Boy's Outing which sums up this pathetic group anway.,

 

[el3mel]

This is all true but will apply the same way to the SL - you're getting knocked out early, you wait a full year until you get the chance again.

During Fergie's times, there were like 16 straight seasons when we were basically guaranteed to be in the CL every single year. Getting knocked out felt as bad as getting knocked out in our occasional CL cameos in the last decade.

A year? It's a group of 10 teams with both playing each other home and away. That means each team will be guaranteed to play at least 18 games. The entire CL campaign is only 13 games if you reach the final. They won't be waiting for a "year". By the time this group ends it will probably be late Feb, early March or something. You start again in August, about 5 months later it's not a big deal.

 

[kouroux]

This is all true but will apply the same way to the SL - you're getting knocked out early, you wait a full year until you get the chance again.

During Fergie's times, there were like 16 straight seasons when we were basically guaranteed to be in the CL every single year. Getting knocked out felt as bad as getting knocked out in our occasional CL cameos in the last decade.

And what happened after SAF ? We don't take qualifying for the CL for granted anymore.

 

[Maciej]

No, this is literally an existential threat to UEFA. If they have to ban teams they will, it won't just go away. If this happens the Premier League product will be ruined so the PL and the Government won't just allow that to happen.

No, your government won't do anything apart from publishing some statements.

 

[devilish]

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Spot on

When the Glazers bought us, ABUs were thrilled. They loved to see a successful club which was the gold standard of how a club should be run being saddled with a mountain of debt. That hindered our success. I wonder if those same ABUs are happy now.

 

[Ixion]

This will destroy the quality of the premier league. These selfish six will be placing more emphasis on their JP Morgan exhibition games at Shea stadium, sponsored by HBO because there is a lot of $$ at stake, then at the weekend playing second string, or squad players in the EPL, because there is nothing riding on the EPL anymore. The EPL will be known as the Jolly Boy's Outing which sums up this pathetic group anway.,

Yes this why I think the Government will intervene. The Premier league is one of our leading "products", something that has attracted a lot of interest and obviously money to the country. The writing it on the wall if nearly a third of the teams in it no longer give a shit about where they finish. A season where Arsenal and Spurs can routinely finish 13th and 14th and still sign better players, earn more money, and have better fixtures the following season than say West Ham and Leicester who finish 3rd and 4th would be a joke. It would kill the interest of fans from those clubs, weakened teams would be fielded, fixtures would be irrelevant.

 

[Giggs86]

A year? It's a group of 10 teams with both playing each other home and away. That means each team will be guaranteed to play at least 18 games. The entire CL campaign is only 13 games if you reach the final. They won't be waiting for a "year". By the time this group ends it will probably be late Feb, early March or something. You start again in August, about 5 months later it's not a big deal.

And if you're getting knocked out of the CL anywhere from February to April/May you also wait 3-6 months, not a full year. This is the same thing. If I understand correctly, there will be a group stage and a knockout stage. So it will be very similar to the CL.

 

[Gasolin]

Dude, are you getting paid by UEFA? No one cares about them. It's the teams that make the competition, not the random suits behind it. No need to be salty about it.

And the European Cup and Champions League belong to the clubs who won it, not to UEFA. UEFA might have organized the tournament but they are nothing but empty cash grabbing suits who are no better than the people behind the SL. Where is that romantic high moral stance on UEFA coming from?

I am not paid by the UEFA, but if you leave it, you leave all your trophies. It’s very simple.

 

[Gasolin]

No, your government won't do anything apart from publishing some statements.

I think you underestimate how populists work. And this is the opium of the people. It’s a guaranteed win in elections if you smash it down.

 

[Maciej]

Yes this why I think the Government will intervene.

It took four years for that government to leave the EU and about two years to agree the deal.

I think you're a bit too optimistic, but I may be wrong.

 

[kouroux]

And if you're getting knocked out of the CL anywhere from February to April/May you also wait 3-6 months, not a full year. This is the same thing. If I understand correctly, there will be a group stage and a knockout stage. So it will be very similar to the CL.

There were never guarantees for many of those 12 clubs to be back in the CL the following year. Some of them haven't been in it for ages.
It has little to do with the CL

 

[Maciej]

I think you underestimate how populists work. And this is the opium of the people. It’s a guaranteed win in elections if you smash it down.

Okay, but this is what we think today - I can assure you that the opinion will be totally different in a few weeks' time.

It's always like this, give it some time, it all came totally unexpectedly and people - including myself, to be fair - always overreact.

 

[el3mel]

And if you're getting knocked out of the CL anywhere from February to April/May you also wait 3-6 months, not a full year. This is the same thing. If I understand correctly, there will be a group stage and a knockout stage. So it will be very similar to the CL.

If you are knocked out of CL by March it means you are KOed from QF not from the group stage like this.

If you are KOed from the group in CL you are basically out from the competition in November or December and have to wait till next September to start the next campaign if you actually manage to qualify to it anyway.

You are guaranteed only 6 games in CL, the rest if you manage to get to KO. You are guaranteed 18 freaking games in SL before the playoff starts. You won't wait long to get your new chance if you finish 10th out of 10 in the group.

They are really losing nothing. There are no stacks to worry about. It's a pretty safe competition for everyone involved : many games, ton of money and guaranteed spot.

Will a club like Tottenham care about not winning it? What's their chance to do it? Will they lose anything? No, they are winners from participating in it even though they know fully well they will never manage to defeat all of these to win it.

 

[Judas]

As long as we don't get kicked out of the PL I think in time things will be alright, no better than that, the PL will be watered down and not feel the same competition when 6 of the main teams, the most hyped teams, will simply not take it as seriously anymore.

I struggle to see how with the SL unless it joins forces with UEFA (not happening) football as we know it is the same again. I just hope in time things work out.