Everybody Stay Calm

[united_99]

Whose approach is right though? We're literally the only club in recent years that stick by managers that are failing. Look at the likes of them, Liverpool, Bayern, City pre-Pep etc. They all won titles following change. Lampard was failing and it was clear to see. Historically, we've only not been like that because we had the best manager going for a quarter of a century.

Well we are also the only club who has appointed 2 of the most proven managers with trophies won in several countries and they still failed to even come close to winning the big trophies.
So yes the question indeed remains which approach is right.

 

[Deery]

I don’t think anybody knows because it’s so bloody hard to judge Ole, one week you’re winning 9-0 the next you can’t beat WBA to maintain a title challenge. It basically sums Ole up, with most managers they are good to average then have a massive drop but with Ole there’s so many ups and downs it’s hard to judge. We could easily go and win 4-0 on Thursday...

 

[RUCK4444]

If Ole gets sacked before the end of the season I’d honestly just laugh and finally give in that the club is fecked

Same here. I've said that for a while, if we throw away the one manager who has put us back on the correct path and made real progress before he's even finished his rebuild then I'll just take a step back and not invest anywhere near the amount of emotional effort into the club perhaps for the first time in my living memory. Sad but true.

Many here just love the circus and their favourite ride is the manager merry go round.

I find myself enjoying football less and less with the introduction of VAR and the above mentioned circus of fans knee jerking from one result to the next. That passion, loyalty, tribalism isn't there any more. It barely resembles anything I enjoyed about football growing up in the 90's.

I've only got a few chips left for this game and I'm going all in on Ole.

 

[pocco]

Well we are also the only club who has appointed 2 of the most proven managers with trophies won in several countries and they still failed to even come close to winning the big trophies.
So yes the question indeed remains which approach is right.

That doesn't mean stop trying to approach the best managers. There were question marks over both managers prior to signing and, in hindsight, we can see they were both just past it. The problem is clearly that we appoint the wrong managers.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

A few adjustments like what though? Signing Grealish, Sancho, top CB, top DM and a seasoned CF? These are the changes others are suggesting Ole needs and, quite frankly, it is outrageous. If we made those signings then I'd expect us to compete on every front. It would literally be the best team in the world right now. And by far the most expensive. I think that is a ridiculous bar that some are trying to set before Ole can be judged - but I know they are hoping, deep down, that we'll buy Ole to success.

As a club you sometimes have to be brave and make a change, because there is always a "what if?".

This isn't Football Manager though, the board are not going to sanction these type of deals. I see a team that isn't too far off though and a couple of individuals can make a big difference.

 

[pocco]

Same here. I've said that for a while, if we throw away the one manager who has put us back on the correct path and made real progress before he's even finished his rebuild then I'll just take a step back and not invest anywhere near the amount of emotional effort into the club perhaps for the first time in my living memory. Sad but true.

Many here just love the circus and their favourite ride is the manager merry go round.

I find myself enjoying football less and less with the introduction of VAR and the above mentioned circus of fans knee jerking from one result to the next. It barely resembles anything I enjoyed about football growing up in the 90's.

What's your breaking point with Ole? Or is there simply no breaking point? Perhaps you just enjoy having a legend in charge and that is enough for you, no matter where we end up.

 

[RedDevilzFox]

Ole is not going to get sacked unless something really horrendous happens from here on in the league table. Though you can't help but wonder if he is the right man long term, long term being next 2-4 years.

 

[pocco]

This isn't Football Manager though, the board are not going to sanction these type of deals. I see a team that isn't too far off though and a couple of individuals can make a big difference.

I know they won't, but that's the bar some are setting. Either in hope that we'll do that business and no doubt win trophies with the best team on the planet, or so they can line up their excuses ready for next season.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see how a couple of signings change much with Ole in charge when you look at our actual performances. A new CB and a new RW/DM or whatever doesn't change a lot for me. If we had another player that brings the ideas and execution to our attack, like Bruno has, then we would probably be a lot better in that sense. But I'd still have to question what Ole brings to the table because having good players will only get you so far.

 

[dinostar77]

Said it on other threads before. We just need to be patient and see out the Guardiola/ Klopp era
Read the mid season academy review (originally posted in the youth news section), there is a very good crop coming through. Maybe the best crop of potential players since Beckham/Scholes/Butt/Neville/Giggs.

https://www.stretfordendarising.com/manchester-united-mid-season-academy-review-january-2021/

Hopefully in a few seasons time we will have a fantastic squad that can really properly start challenging again supplemented hungry talented players from the academy. Ole is going in the right direction, just need to be patient.

 

[Roboc7]

Ole took over a team that was good enough to finish in top four and if he left now that’s exactly what he’d leave behind.

Any progress is fairly insignificant given the time and money invested. I’m sure this debate will continue for another season or two before we eventually sack Ole when he doesn’t qualify for Champions League.

The idea Ole and the club are building something just doesn’t cut it, the manager, board, owners etc just aren’t up to it in one way or another.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Fair point, guess I find it a bit of a reach to compare his title wins in Norway (which are a great achievement) with showing the credentials to deliver the big one.

Yeah it is not the same but it is still a little disrespectful (not from you) to say he has no credentials because the league is a low level.

We might as well argue the same for anyone who wins the league with Bayern, PSG, Real Madrid/Barca etc, because they are by far the biggest and best clubs in their country and most managers could win with them, but the achievement still stands that they have won league titles.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

I know they won't, but that's the bar some are setting. Either in hope that we'll do that business and no doubt win trophies with the best team on the planet, or so they can line up their excuses ready for next season.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see how a couple of signings change much with Ole in charge when you look at our actual performances. A new CB and a new RW/DM or whatever doesn't change a lot for me.

If you're Ole out, you're Ole out. I respect that opinion. I just don't feel it very productive to be losing our minds over Ole right now. I think our squad suffer from a lack of belief and I can hardly blame them when our fanbase have no faith in them.

 

[united_99]

That doesn't mean stop trying to approach the best managers. There were question marks over both managers prior to signing and, in hindsight, we can see they were both just past it. The problem is clearly that we appoint the wrong managers.

And you have trust in the board that this time they will appoint the right manager? Let’s not kid ourselves. We can either give Ole more time or keep appointing managers without much thought and planning and keep building disjointed squads for 2 more decades.
LvG knows modern structures both on and off the pitch but if even he couldn’t make or drive any changes it is hard to see who will.

I am relaxed, we have a good squad which still needs 2-3 quality additions. If we get them and Ole does well, great. If we get them and Ole can’t make us better then we make a change and in 1-2 years a lot of players in our current team will either be in their peak years or at least closer to reaching their peak.
What I definitely don’t want is an Allegri now and then a Nagelsmann. Completely different systems which will result in even more money wasted. Basically the same mistake we made by hiring Jose after LvG.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

I am relaxed, we have a good squad which still needs 2-3 quality additions. If we get them and Ole does well, great. If we get them and Ole can’t make us better then we make a change and in 1-2 years a lot of players in our current team will either be in their peak years or at least closer to reaching their peak.
What I definitely don’t want is an Allegri now and then a Nagelsmann. Completely different systems which will result in even more money wasted. Basically the same mistake we made by hiring Jose after LvG.

Exactly how I feel.

 

[Vidyoyo]

I'm calm because I've watched us doing pretty poorly the past six years and this league campaign is probably much better than any in that time. It's like people saw this sniff at a league title and then went overboard when it turned out we weren't absolutely amazing. The United forum is a peculiar place.

 

[Lentwood]

Are they improving enough, though? I mean we could end second with only a six-point improvement this season. I can't help but think most of the 'improvement' comes from the collapse of the opposition.

Is it only me that sees a pattern here? Despite only gaining 6 points, we jump from 6th to 2nd. How much of that is actually due to us? Or is it actually that we are being made to look better due to failing opposition?

We are relying too much on the opposition remaining weak, but it may not always be that way. Are you confident that we can sustain our position if the opposition improve? I'm not.

I mean this in the nicest possible way but I get sick of seeing this argument on RedCafe and on Social Media. It's just downright ridiculous.

Ole and Manchester United aren't operating in a vacuum! If other teams are struggling to earn points then that just highlights the league is becoming more competitive! I could understand if maybe one team was trending down but when it's 4 or 5 teams across the board I fail to see how the suggestion has any credibility whatsoever.

 

[MU655]

I mean this in the nicest possible way but I get sick of seeing this argument on RedCafe and on Social Media. It's just downright ridiculous.

Ole and Manchester United aren't operating in a vacuum! If other teams are struggling to earn points then that just highlights the league is becoming more competitive! I could understand if maybe one team was trending down but when it's 4 or 5 teams across the board I fail to see how the suggestion has any credibility whatsoever.

I quoted you into this. I actually think signs are that the opposition overall has slightly weakened, particularly Liverpool. Leicester seems to be going to opposite way.

I really don't see the value in comparing season to season points. It's broadly useful but beyond that makes no sense every season is different. We won the treble with I think 78 points. If we hit that this season should we compare the two teams? In fact it was less points than the year mourinho finished second.

Every single season is different and we are patently twice the team we were when he took over though its still fair to wonder if he can catch team billions. Or anybody, in a sustained way, for that matter.

But you can still build a picture based on the title winner. Man City are on course for 87 points (15 higher than us), but I wouldn't be surprised if they manage into the 90s. Points would seem easier for them to get this season than last, which makes me think the opposition hasn't really improved at all. But, I think signs are that they have actually become weaker.

Liverpool with a potential 35 point drop, which is pretty much entirely down to them being far worse. Chelsea looks a bit worse than last season (could possibly improve with Tuchel). Tottenham marginal - better attack (Kane and Son), but seem worse in defence. Arsenal looks worse.

Leicester is the only team that has really shown any notable improvement, which is backed by the 20 point increase in two seasons. In comparison, we are on 6 points improvement. In the end, I don't think we've taken advantage of the weaker opposition to make a noticeable gap.

If Chelsea wins their game in hand, we will be 4 points. Liverpool 6 points off, despite being pretty rubbish. Leicester sprung from 14 points down in 18/19 to match us this season.

 

[Powderfinger]

Sacking Ole mid-season would be ludicrous given your results but I think you need to look hard at it this summer.

On average, players peak from 24-28. There are exceptions, and its not like players can't still be very good afterwards, but most players give their best performances (and stay healthiest) during those years. Look at the age profile of your squad and its largely a team of prime age players, with many key players (Bruno, Pogba, Maguire, Fred, Lindelof, Bailly) in the 26-27 age bracket. The time for this group to challenge for the league is next year and the year after.

Its also pretty clear that City is setting a very high standard again, now that Guardiola has figured out how to balance attack and defense with his current group. Given that they've done it without a striker and are likely to buy one in the summer, its a pretty fair bet that they'll be playing at a very high level the next couple years.

You need to make a big jump soon, not in a couple years but this summer and next season. Personally, I think if you're being ruthless and really focused on maximizing your chances of winning at all costs, you bring in a new manager over the summer with some fresh ideas to make that happen.

 

[Deery]

Sacking Ole mid-season would be ludicrous given your results but I think you need to look hard at it this summer.

On average, players peak from 24-28. There are exceptions, and its not like players can't still be very good afterwards, but most players give their best performances (and stay healthiest) during those years. Look at the age profile of your squad and its largely a team of prime age players, with many key players (Bruno, Pogba, Maguire, Fred, Lindelof, Bailly) in the 26-27 age bracket. The time for this group to challenge for the league is next year and the year after.

Its also pretty clear that City is setting a very high standard again, now that Guardiola has figured out how to balance attack and defense with his current group. Given that they've done it without a striker and are likely to buy one in the summer, its a pretty fair bet that they'll be playing at a very high level the next couple years.

You need to make a big jump soon, not in a couple years but this summer and next season. Personally, I think if you're being ruthless and really focused on maximizing your chances of winning at all costs, you bring in a new manager over the summer with some fresh ideas to make that happen.

Very well put, it’s what I worry about sometimes that if we hold on too long we may have missed our chance altogether.

 

[Hansinity]

To be honest , was there really much improvement ?

6 more points at this time but

- with an upgraded team

- weaker rivals in Chelsea and Liverpool

- Bruno was available from start

On top of that

- out of the CL group stage

- Greenwood and Martial did't make much progress, more the opposite

- defence got worse

- barely more than 5 convincing matches looking like a top team.


Again, I prefer 2nd half of last season performance over the current season.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Sacking Ole mid-season would be ludicrous given your results but I think you need to look hard at it this summer.

On average, players peak from 24-28. There are exceptions, and its not like players can't still be very good afterwards, but most players give their best performances (and stay healthiest) during those years. Look at the age profile of your squad and its largely a team of prime age players, with many key players (Bruno, Pogba, Maguire, Fred, Lindelof, Bailly) in the 26-27 age bracket. The time for this group to challenge for the league is next year and the year after.

Its also pretty clear that City is setting a very high standard again, now that Guardiola has figured out how to balance attack and defense with his current group. Given that they've done it without a striker and are likely to buy one in the summer, its a pretty fair bet that they'll be playing at a very high level the next couple years.

You need to make a big jump soon, not in a couple years but this summer and next season. Personally, I think if you're being ruthless and really focused on maximizing your chances of winning at all costs, you bring in a new manager over the summer with some fresh ideas to make that happen.

That’s absolute nonsense.

In reality we have one of the youngest squads in the league. We have literally one player in our best XI that is past his prime, with every single one of the rest of them likely to improve, year on year, for the next few years. For at least half of them they’re a good five years shy of their prime.

 

[vanderpants]

Seeing as we are hiring former players why don't we get Rio in to teach the defenders, maybe Vidic too....feck it get Stam, Brown, Pallister and William Prunier too

 

[Powderfinger]

That’s absolute nonsense.

In reality we have one of the youngest squads in the league. We have literally one player in our best XI that is past his prime, with every single one of the rest of them likely to improve, year on year, for the next few years.

Sorry I think that is just wrong. Players who are 27-28 are much more likely to decline than improve in the following couple seasons. They can still play at a high level of course but their absolute best tends to be 24-28.

 

[mav_9me]

I feel Ole has done well but still feel we could improve on him. Shrug shoulders.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Sorry I think that is just wrong. Players who are 27-28 are much more likely to decline than improve in the following couple seasons. They can still play at a high level of course but their absolute best tends to be 24-28.

By that logic you're expecting Liverpool to continue to fall off a cliff next season?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Sorry I think that is just wrong. Players who are 27-28 are much more likely to decline than improve in the following couple seasons. They can still play at a high level of course but their absolute best tends to be 24-28.

You’re just plucking numbers out of your arse now. For modern footballers you can reasonably expect their best years to be between 25 and 30 years old. Although many would argue that goalkeepers and CBs peak even later than that.

How many players in our best XI will be 30 years or older in two years time? Because the majority of them won’t hit that number for another five years, never mind two.

If age was the only criteria for signing new players then Cavani is the only player that needs replacing between now and 2024.

 

[James35]

I'm certainly calm, won't be so much if he keeps his job after failing to get top 4.

That is a must for me, he shouldn't be afforded more time than the previous two managers who also won trophies.

 

[pocco]

And you have trust in the board that this time they will appoint the right manager? Let’s not kid ourselves. We can either give Ole more time or keep appointing managers without much thought and planning and keep building disjointed squads for 2 more decades.
LvG knows modern structures both on and off the pitch but if even he couldn’t make or drive any changes it is hard to see who will.

I am relaxed, we have a good squad which still needs 2-3 quality additions. If we get them and Ole does well, great. If we get them and Ole can’t make us better then we make a change and in 1-2 years a lot of players in our current team will either be in their peak years or at least closer to reaching their peak.
What I definitely don’t want is an Allegri now and then a Nagelsmann. Completely different systems which will result in even more money wasted. Basically the same mistake we made by hiring Jose after LvG.

Why not appoint the right guy now? You're basically saying that the board will get it wrong so why bother trying?

LVG was a tactically rigid dinosaur that wanted to put the shackles on all his players. His ego was too big, practically the Donald Trump of football. His methods were never going to work here. Not to mention his supposed list of players that he needed to make it all work! He's deluded if he thought we could make those signings for him.

None of this changes the fact that there are managers out there, yet to win things, that will go on to be top level managers. We just need to identify the correct one. If we simply wait for them to prove themselves elsewhere, chances are they will not want to come here. So that is a flawed plan.

I'm ok with that outlook. I don't agree because I'm just so convinced that already this team is underperforming compared to the players at our disposal. Posters are reeling off players that we need in certain positions, yet the players already playing there have been some of our best performers this season. I just feel like we could be a lot better already and that gap between our actual performances and potential will only increase as we bring in better players, hence my position. If we bring in a lot of good players then actual performace may bring a title or a cup now and then but, based on what I've seen, I will probably never believe that Ole will maximise potential of a team as a whole.

I also wouldn't want Allegri then Nagelsmann, for exaple. But that's unlikely now hopefully, as I'm sure even Woodward has learnt that lesson. That's not to say we couldn't get a Nagelsmann this summer though and let him implement his coaching AND build a team suited to such an exciting brand of football, that also trusts youth. I don't think any United supporter wouldn't enjoy that. If we did that then I believe that. finally, the fanbase would actually be united behing the manager. Apart from perhaps those that would be unhappy that Ole got dismissed.

 

[RUCK4444]

What's your breaking point with Ole? Or is there simply no breaking point? Perhaps you just enjoy having a legend in charge and that is enough for you, no matter where we end up.

Yeah that’s a typical response from an Ole-Out poster.

I’ve said countless times that it has ZERO to do with Ole being a legend. I mean that whole argument is boll@x.. we are talking about Ole here not fecking Cantona ffs.

He’s a legend for the CL final but why anybody would expect grown men/women to back him just for that at any cost is laughable and shows the narrow minded mindset they have on the topic in general.

He’s brought us on in countless areas, I’ve listed them a dozen or more times, I can’t be bothered doing it again tbh.

Let me guess Poch or Nagelsmann or Rose? They’ve all won lots in fairness...

 

[TheGame]

Same here. I've said that for a while, if we throw away the one manager who has put us back on the correct path and made real progress before he's even finished his rebuild then I'll just take a step back and not invest anywhere near the amount of emotional effort into the club perhaps for the first time in my living memory. Sad but true.

Many here just love the circus and their favourite ride is the manager merry go round.

I find myself enjoying football less and less with the introduction of VAR and the above mentioned circus of fans knee jerking from one result to the next. That passion, loyalty, tribalism isn't there any more. It barely resembles anything I enjoyed about football growing up in the 90's.

I've only got a few chips left for this game and I'm going all in on Ole.

Spot on.

 

[pocco]

I mean this in the nicest possible way but I get sick of seeing this argument on RedCafe and on Social Media. It's just downright ridiculous.

Ole and Manchester United aren't operating in a vacuum! If other teams are struggling to earn points then that just highlights the league is becoming more competitive! I could understand if maybe one team was trending down but when it's 4 or 5 teams across the board I fail to see how the suggestion has any credibility whatsoever.

Last season Liverpool and City earned a ridiculous amount of points between them. Has the league got that much better during a Covid hit summer/winter transfer market? No it hasn't. It's clear to see why each team is having the problems they are having if you look at it.

 

[Powderfinger]

By that logic you're expecting Liverpool to continue to fall off a cliff next season?

Getting their injured players back will help, but overall I think they are in serious trouble because they have so many key players (especially attacking players) that are entering their post-prime years. Forwards reliant on burst, dribbling, and acceleration - like Mane and Salah - have a pretty terrible track record overall in the Premier League after about age 29.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Getting their injured players back will help, but overall I think they are in serious trouble because they have so many key players (especially attacking players) that are entering their post-prime years. Forwards reliant on burst, dribbling, and acceleration - like Mane and Salah - have a pretty terrible track record overall in the Premier League after about age 29.

I mean, I hope you're right.

 

[Mike Oxard]

I agree with the OP. We expect too much. It was always going to take time to get back to the top after SAF left us with a squad in decline and I reckon that we’re about half way there. Keep hold of Ole, keep improving and in 4 or 5 seasons, with a fair wind, we’ll be back truly competing.

 

[pocco]

Yeah that’s a typical response from an Ole-Out poster.

I’ve said countless times that it has ZERO to do with Ole being a legend. I mean that whole argument is boll@x.. we are talking about Ole here not fecking Cantona ffs.

He’s a legend for the CL final but why anybody would expect grown men/women to back him just for that at any cost is laughable and shows the narrow minded mindset they have on the topic in general.

He’s brought us on in countless areas, I’ve listed them a dozen or more times, I can’t be bothered doing it again tbh.

Let me guess Poch or Nagelsmann or Rose? They’ve all won lots in fairness...

What are the countless areas he's brought us on in? When you next get time I'd be interested to hear, or at least link me to that post where you laid it all out for us.

What had any great manager won before they actually won something? That's a daft argument. Nagelsmann could take over Bayern next and win the fecking lot. I bet you still won't want to hear that we should have considered him, or somebody like him. Same goes for countless potentially great managers that are always out there. How about we do our job as a club and identify them next time?

 

[Siorac]

I agree with the OP. We expect too much. It was always going to take time to get back to the top after SAF left us with a squad in decline and I reckon that we’re about half way there. Keep hold of Ole, keep improving and in 4 or 5 seasons, with a fair wind, we’ll be back truly competing.

Four or five seasons from now?

 

[Tom Cato]

Couldn’t this just be in the Ole discussion thread? He hasn’t earned the right, quite the contrary in two years here and close to 300m spent he hasn’t even achieved what Mournino did, he has spent 150m on the defence and made it worse than it was, hasn’t won a single thing and wont this year either gets outclassed by teams that are about to be relegated and in two and half years here hasn’t managed to get our team to attack with any kind of pattern other than get the ball to the front four and let them do whatever they want.

While dissapointing and jheartbreaking that we have so many forwards out of form, saying that we're being outclassed is a bit... what's the word.. Lying.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I'm pretty calm. Ole has done fine considering his own limitations as a manager. But we need someone better than him. Completely disagree that he's the right man for the job, OP.

 

[Deery]

I agree with the OP. We expect too much. It was always going to take time to get back to the top after SAF left us with a squad in decline and I reckon that we’re about half way there. Keep hold of Ole, keep improving and in 4 or 5 seasons, with a fair wind, we’ll be back truly competing.

You’re joking right 4-5 seasons the likes of Maguire, Bruno, Pogba, Fred, Shaw and so on will be in their 30s we should be making the most of them now in their primes.

We’d have to spend another couple hundred million by then and be exactly where we are now..

 

[el3mel]

I agree with the OP. We expect too much. It was always going to take time to get back to the top after SAF left us with a squad in decline and I reckon that we’re about half way there. Keep hold of Ole, keep improving and in 4 or 5 seasons, with a fair wind, we’ll be back truly competing.

Yeah, let's drop our expectations to rock bottom just to suit the current manager.