Everyone is up for sale (again)

Dunno why other teams wouldn't want our "deadwood"/ "shit players" etc they most often do very well,
Obviously McTominay is player of the year in Italy, Wan-Bissaka is about to win player of the year at West Ham, our youth LB Fernandes we ditched is about to be snapped up by Real, Antony looks like a rising star in Spain, Greenwood top goalscorer in France.

Most of our players the fans want rid of for being "shit" will go on and do very well elsewhere similarly.
 
StuCol said:
I’m at the point where I wouldn’t lose any sleep over any of the players going.

Last time around I was ‘Not Garnacho, not Mainoo, not Amad, not Bruno’

Now, I genuinely couldn’t care less. What matters is what happens next season. All of these players have failed. If they go, they go.
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I think I’m there too. I’d perhaps be a bit gutted if we lost Yoro as he looks to really have something and Heaven was excelling when he got injured, wouldn’t mind seeing a bit more of him but the rest I wouldn’t be too bothered. There’d be a few preferences to keep given a choice - Amad, Mainoo - but I really wouldn’t be too bothered if they went.
 
JediSith said:
Heard the same with Ragnick, ETH, now Amorim.

It’s clearly a player issue. An issue set in the culture of the squad.
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But 75% of the squad has changed since Ragnick.

As I said on another thread, only 2 players that started the cup final last year started on Wednesday.

Are we continously signing the wrong players or are there wider issues which causes players to not reach their potential?

People want an overhaul but there's essentially been an overhaul every 2 years for the last decade, maybe something else is going wrong.
 
KStandBarmyArmy1993 said:
But 75% of the squad has changed since Ragnick.

As I said on another thread, only 2 players that started the cup final last year started on Wednesday.

Are we continously signing the wrong players or are there wider issues which causes players to not reach their potential?

People want an overhaul but there's essentially been an overhaul every 2 years for the last decade, maybe something else is going wrong.
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Culture doesn’t change. It’s like under SAF, the players changed but the culture remained the same. Because new players would inherit the existing culture of the club.

What United need is a couple of players who hate losing, have very strong personalities and will basically force their identity/ethos onto other players
 
Other than Bruno, Yoro and Amad I couldn’t give a rats arse who goes. Sick of these shite players and after the season we’ve just had there’s very few that deserve to wear the shirt ever again.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
Be fine doing a Chelsea and starting with 15-20 new players.
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Don’t know if sarcasm. But all we need is 2-3 players, most likely aged 25-29, who are strong characters. It’s like any group. It’s normally just a few personalities that determines the behaviour of the others.
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
Other than Bruno, Yoro and Amad I couldn’t give a rats arse who goes. Sick of these shite players and after the season we’ve just had there’s very few that deserve to wear the shirt ever again.
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Bruno was abysmal in the final and showed no leadership skills.
 
JediSith said:
Don’t know if sarcasm. But all we need is 2-3 players, most likely aged 25-29, who are strong characters. It’s like any group. It’s normally just a few personalities that determines the behaviour of the others.
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Nah, a lot of them are scared stiff as soon as they get pressed or go a goal down. If you can’t root out the problem, it’s time to throw the whole thing out and start afresh.
 
Maybe but we'll see a terrible goalkeeper/striker, average midfielders with lumbering Harry Maguire in the centre of a back 5 constantly conceding goals with media/fans believing he's had a 2nd coming.
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
He was poor but he’s still easily the best signing we’ve made in the last 10 years and if it wasn’t for him this season we’d have been very close to relegation.
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And still poor in 2 European finals. Hes been good for us but if the 100m offer is true we should take it and rebuild.
 
Wasn’t everyone up for sale last year? And how many are still here?
 
JediSith said:
Bruno was abysmal in the final and showed no leadership skills.
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Not down to just him to carry this team every single game. Others need to pull there finger out. When Bruno as a bad game no one els steps up and we need them too. Too reliant on our captain who as carried this team far to many times and he’s the reason we’re not in the relegation zone
 
KStandBarmyArmy1993 said:
But 75% of the squad has changed since Ragnick.

As I said on another thread, only 2 players that started the cup final last year started on Wednesday.

Are we continously signing the wrong players or are there wider issues which causes players to not reach their potential?

People want an overhaul but there's essentially been an overhaul every 2 years for the last decade, maybe something else is going wrong.
Click to expand...

That's not how things work unfortunately. Bad behavior can be learnt hence why despite having changed the squad we're still suited to a basic counter attacking football which doesn't require a lot of running and football IQ. I don't know if Amorim is the right guy for us or not. However what I am sure about is that we need someone who takes the flamethrower approach and break the whole squad down. That's what SAF did when he came which ended decades of mediocrity
 
KStandBarmyArmy1993 said:
But 75% of the squad has changed since Ragnick.

As I said on another thread, only 2 players that started the cup final last year started on Wednesday.

Are we continously signing the wrong players or are there wider issues which causes players to not reach their potential?

People want an overhaul but there's essentially been an overhaul every 2 years for the last decade, maybe something else is going wrong.
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Yes we are signing the wrong players. Who are the good technical passers in our midfield we have signed since Rangnick?

I can only think of Eriksen, who is now past it. We signed Casemiro and Ugarte when we knew our midfield lacked technical quality. Granted Casemiro is actually pretty good but he was coming to the end of his career, Rangnick told us to sign younger players who are hungry for success. We signed Mount who is not a strong passing midfielder he is more of an attacker

Who are the quick strong defenders we have signed since Rangnick?

Yoro and recently Dorgu and Heaven thats about it. We signed De Ligt and Martinez who do not fit the profile. Malacia was a punt so I won’t really say much about that one. It was an ok transfer


Who are the goalscorers in attack we have signed since Rangnick?

Hojlund Antony Zirkzee I don’t think I need to say much here they are not proven goal scorers

Who is the keeper we signed since Rangnick?

Onana and Atlay… enough said
 
Nep77 said:
Is Manager up for sale too or he gets clean slate after winning 6 league games in 8 months, conceding 4 against midtable French side with a man down or refusing to budge from his crap system which needs 3 center backs all the time even when you are down 1-0 and need a goal to make a comeback in European final.
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Oof.

That is succinctly grim reading.
 
Lennon said:
Now is the time to put an end to this nonsense! The perfect time to integrate young, fresh players with hunger and drive into the team. The squad should be built around Yoro, Heaven, Amad, Obi and De Ligt. Maz, Martinez, Dorgu, Garnacho and Ugarte should stay.
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And what if they don't fit to Amorim's (in)famous system??? Omg, if I hear this phrase "Amorim's system" i literally get sick.
 
JediSith said:
Culture doesn’t change. It’s like under SAF, the players changed but the culture remained the same. Because new players would inherit the existing culture of the club.

What United need is a couple of players who hate losing, have very strong personalities and will basically force their identity/ethos onto other players
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This is 100% correct. Action on the pitch is needed. We need players like Keane who accepts nothing less than 100% from each other. Maguire wasn't captain material so is Bruno. Bruno as captain needs to set example of not losing the ball but he for one loses the ball often.
 
I blame United board for backing ETH. How can we allow ETH to sign players that are so poor?
 
If we can get rid of Casemiro, Rashford, Antony and Sancho in the summer then we will be doing very well.
 
r0663664 said:
I blame United board for backing ETH. How can we allow ETH to sign players that are so poor?
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Some of the players are players the club signed when ETH preferred other options or keeping some players. Ugarte, Hojlund and Mount spring to mind

I agree though the ETH choices were bad. Also though that is why we were supposed to have a sporting director and do things properly so I blame the club
 
Heres my take on the most optimum squad overhaul using current salaries pw - potential tf fee - accounting profit if sold

End of Contract - allowed to leave
Eriksen 150k
Lindelof 120k
Evans 65k
Heaton 45k

Out on Loan - to be sold
Rashford 300k - fee 40m - all profit
Antony 200k - fee 40m - breakeven
Sancho 150k - fee 20m - breakeven
Malacia 75k - fee 6m - breakeven

Injury Prone - no one will buy so keep
Mount 250k
Martinez 120k
Shaw 150k

Excessive Salary - no one will buy so keep
Casemiro 350k

Manager Fallout - to be sold
Garnacho 50k - fee 55m - all profit

PSR loss - so club won't sell
Hojlund 85k
Onana 120k

Young potential - club shouldn't sell
Yoro 115k
Amad 120k
Dorgu 100k
Mainoo 20k

Yr 1 of Contract - leave for now
De ligt 195k
Mazraoui 135k
Zirkzee 105k
Ugarte 120k



Captains - need to keep some experience
Fernandes 300k
Maguire 190k

Others - potential sales
Dalot 85k - fee 25m - all profit
Bayinder 35k - fee 5m


Summary

Profitable Sales
Rashford, Garnacho, Dalot - 120m profit

Wages Saving 1.3m pw or 70m pa
End of Contract 380k
Out on Loan 725k
Manager Fallout 50k
Others 120k

If we spread the 120m profitable sales over 4 years that's 30m pa. Plus wages savings 70m pa that gives us 100m pa to invest in the squad this summer.

What will that get? 5 good quality players costing 20m pa using my maths .
Average tf fee 50m (40m - 60m) or 10m pa spread over a 5 year contract.
Average salary 200k pw or 10m pa.

What will we need.
1 goalscorer - we don't have one
2 number 10s - to replace Antony, Garnacho, Rashford, Sancho
1 midfielder - to replace Erikson
1 right wing back - to replace Dalot

It's do-able this summer but requires a lot of work.
 
JediSith said:
Culture doesn’t change. It’s like under SAF, the players changed but the culture remained the same. Because new players would inherit the existing culture of the club.

What United need is a couple of players who hate losing, have very strong personalities and will basically force their identity/ethos onto other players
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You raise a good point in the first part of that 2nd paragraph. For now, what United need is to win football matches again. By hook or by crook.

Post Moyes, there has been too much talk of philosophies and identities. Football has been made overly complicated by nerds across the board. It's a short term game and you're never getting the time to bring massive changes all at once.

Short term gains on the pitch should run parallel with wider changes off the pitch. Hire better scouts. Hire better negotiators. Hire better people in the academy that can help with players personal development in addition to their development as a player. Hire a manager, that in the short term, can work with the tools that he has at his disposal in the most effective manner. If you have better people working in the background then the manager will eventually have a better pool of players. If the manager isn't working out, change it.

The manager should never be in a position where he finishes 8 or 9 places below the previous manager and essentially blames the squad for not being able to play the system. If you can't at least maintain what happened before, you shouldn't be in the job. If you have to bin your philosophy for a few months to make sure we don't finish the season in 17th place on 39 points, great. Just fecking win some matches.

Granted there should be a longer term goal in mind and you need to have a manager in mind that can take us to actually have sustained success, just make sure there's already a platform in place because you've succeeded in the very basics initially.

Mourinho wouldn't have been able to succeed at Chelsea if Ranieri hadn't got them back into the Champions League.

Guardiola wouldn't have had the same success at city without the early title wins of Mancini and Pellegrini. The later being one of the most successful stop gap managers ever once they realised Guardiola was going to Bayern in 2013. He came in, won them a title, kept them in the Champions League places then was binned once their main man was available. Brutal but it was incredibly successful.
 
DJ_21 said:
Not down to just him to carry this team every single game. Others need to pull there finger out. When Bruno as a bad game no one els steps up and we need them too. Too reliant on our captain who as carried this team far to many times and he’s the reason we’re not in the relegation zone
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But it’s a common issues with Bruno and an example of why he is a great player but a very poor captain and should not have a team built around him.

I remember the champions league SF vs Juventus. United were down 2 nil after 15 minutes. Keane put in one of the greatest performances in history and United won.
 
I’m going crazy just to let you know,
You’d be amazed how much I love you so, baby
When I get my hands on you I won’t let go…
 
With Amorim you’re basically looking at dissecting the whole team. Amad, Garnacho, Marino, just doesn’t work with his formation. Amad is not a RWB. I just have a fear that Amorim is trying to do too much at once.

For next season I’d be looking at RB Mazouri CB Yoro CB De Ligt LB Dorgu LCM Mainoo CM new signing CM new signing RW Diallo LW Garnacho CF new signing. Every other player should be up for sale really.

Shaw, casemeiro, ugarte Martinez, Anthony, rashford, Hojlund Sancho, lindelof, Dalot, Mount all need to be moved on.

It’s actually probably a blessing we are not in Europe next season.
 
Cassidy said:
Some of the players are players the club signed when ETH preferred other options or keeping some players. Ugarte, Hojlund and Mount spring to mind

I agree though the ETH choices were bad. Also though that is why we were supposed to have a sporting director and do things properly so I blame the club
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Aside from the other two, was ETH not pushing for Mount? As far as I can remember he wanted him badly.
 
JediSith said:
Heard the same with Ragnick, ETH, now Amorim.

It’s clearly a player issue. An issue set in the culture of the squad.
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Clearly a number of them have reservations as they are not suited at all to his system. He now knows who isn’t suited and can move them on. It’ll be many though and more than likely we’ll not get rid of at least half of them.
 
Dans said:
Clearly a number of them have reservations as they are not suited at all to his system. He now knows who isn’t suited and can move them on. It’ll be many though and more than likely we’ll not get rid of at least half of them.
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I think it’s an exaggeration. Yes in some positions he requires players that are pretty unique. Eg attacking wing backs who can defend.

But the rest is just about mentality. CB, CM, Striker are no different to any other team. The two tens just needs to learn about playing together
 
DutchSerb said:
Aside from the other two, was ETH not pushing for Mount? As far as I can remember he wanted him badly.
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No he wanted Rice and Mount is who he got. The press were putting 2 and 2 together because he Mount played in Holland but when he was signed the club briefed is was a club signing as part of the summer where they gave ETH less control allegedly
 
devilish said:
That's not how things work unfortunately. Bad behavior can be learnt hence why despite having changed the squad we're still suited to a basic counter attacking football which doesn't require a lot of running and football IQ. I don't know if Amorim is the right guy for us or not. However what I am sure about is that we need someone who takes the flamethrower approach and break the whole squad down. That's what SAF did when he came which ended decades of mediocrity
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He was also given many (some poor) seasons to turn it around, 4 for a trophy and 7 for the title. Lets hope Amorim is backed heavily as he has to hit the ground running next season.
 
BennyBlanco said:
Dunno why other teams wouldn't want our "deadwood"/ "shit players" etc they most often do very well,
Obviously McTominay is player of the year in Italy, Wan-Bissaka is about to win player of the year at West Ham, our youth LB Fernandes we ditched is about to be snapped up by Real, Antony looks like a rising star in Spain, Greenwood top goalscorer in France.

Most of our players the fans want rid of for being "shit" will go on and do very well elsewhere similarly.
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I expect Garnacho to do very well somewhere also when he leaves.
 
Cassidy said:
No he wanted Rice and Mount is who he got. The press were putting 2 and 2 together because he Mount played in Holland but when he was signed the club briefed is was a club signing as part of the summer where they gave ETH less control allegedly
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That summer where we signed Mount, Onana, Hojlund, was really the worse in our history. What’s most ironic is the most useful player we signed we didn’t even keep. Amrabat was actually a decent CM
 
JediSith said:
That summer where we signed Mount, Onana, Hojlund, was really the worse in our history. What’s most ironic is the most useful player we signed we didn’t even keep. Amrabat was actually a decent CM
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Yes but he was an ETH pick and there was clearly a battle between him and the club that summer

Saying that I dont think we should have kept Amrabat really too slow
 
Its going to interesting to see what kind of players they manage to bring in to replace them with no European football on offer and very liitle funds to spend, overpaying for Matheus Cunha probably isnt the best way to start.
 
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