Exclusion draft: SF - Sjor/Gio vs Skizzo

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

vs
.................................................. TEAM SJOR/GIO .......................................................................................................... TEAM SKIZZO ........................................................

Team Sjor/Gio

Tactics

Name of the game - Team over Individuals
High Line, High Press

Few changes for the second game, GOAT keeper entering the building first and foremost. With tactics in mind Bernardo Silva gets the not ahead of Ardiles, Man City magical duracell bunny that is absolutely crucial for this team. One of the pioneers of the modern game and father of the false 9 as we know today, Nandor Hidegkuti plays ahead of Streltsov while probably the biggest surprise is Son getting a chance over the squads biggest offensive star in Kylian Mbappe.
Why?

• Banks alone is worth the tactics, when you add Kaltz and Pavoni that were pretty average under pressure and Chumpi/Shesternyov that were good but had it easy as there was hardly any pressure on defenders this days, the tactic became a no brainer. Having Verratti in the team obviously helps, one of the best ever when it comes to playing under pressure but there is just too many potential traps to set up around him.
• Uwe Seeler. Im probably the biggest fanboy here but him as a lone striker in a high line would be a struggle for him. Isnt the fastest, cant really hurt you with ball in his feet and his hold up was okay but nothing really special. He was a master of the box or a perfect team mate outside of it, but to get the best of the latter part is you need someone else to lead the line.
• The whole Kaltz - Seeler route to goal is pretty much put to bed, both would be far from the goal and the chances would come from quick transitions so while Seeler will still find himself in positions, Kaltz will spend majority of his game far from our goal.
• Skizzo team is brilliant but its set up to play on the slow. Both Dzajic and Matthews(and Rivelino) were specialist at slowing the game down and then hurting you, neither played at pace which is fairly logical as neither was that fast but both were absolute masters of the wing play in their own way. Problem is, with the high line and high press a lot of that game is gone.

...

TEAM SKIZZO

Formation - 4-3-3

TEAM

GK - Gordon Banks. World Cup winning goalkeeper and six-time winner of the FIFA Goalkeeper of the Year award.

RB - Manfred Kaltz. The energetic right back would love to see his crosses end up on the head of Seeler. Would be running up and down the flank, even is Stanley would rather him not.

LB - Tommy Gemmell. The right-footed left back would love to get forward to support the attack. Would also be up for the challenge with opposition wingers looking to cut inside onto his strong foot.

CB - Albert Shesternyov. Generally regarded as one of, if not the, best Soviet defender. Fast, good in the air, he had all the physical traits required to succeed and be one of the very best.

CB - Hector Chumpitaz. Regarded as one of the best South American defenders of all time, Chumpitaz was almost as good on the ball as he was off it. Fast, strong, good in the air for his size, and able to play the ball out of the back.

DM - Mauro Silva. The Brazilian was a compact and robust defensive stopper, he should be able to provide a tireless and concrete platform for players ahead of him to work their magic — on top of effectively screening the defensive line. A forceful and committed player, Mauro Silva was known for his stamina and competitive nature in the middle of the pitch, providing a solid base for many of Deportivo's biggest triumphs. There can be no underplaying Mauro Silva's role in the finest period of La Coruña's Super Depor — even before considering his success at international level.

CM - Marco Verratti. The Teflon Don. The press-resistant Italian is considered one of the finest midfield talents in the World. Would look to get on the ball and help link the team front to back.

CM - Robert Rivellino. Maradona's inspiration and one of Brazil's stars of the 70's, he was famous for his large moustache, bending free kicks, long range shooting, accurate long passing, vision, close ball control and dribbling skills.

RW - Stanley Matthews. One of the most devastating dribblers of all-time who was known for single-handedly destroying his opponents time and again.

LW - Dragan Dzajic. Another devastating dribbler and goal threat. He'll also look to put some crosses into the box for the ever deadly Seeler.

ST - Uwe Seeler. A natural goalscorer, deadly in the air, and a fantastic ability to link up with his fellow attackers.

STRENGTHS

• A defense that boasts a variety of physical attributes, there's pace, physicality, ability to read the game and react, good in the air, and an ability to play the ball out of the back.
• A midfield that combines both the defensive acumen to be defensively sound, coupled with an ability to create from deeper and find players in dangerous areas.
• An attack that offers a direct individual one-on-one threat, and a diverse way to score with threats from outside the box, link-up play, or crosses in to Seeler.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Šjor Bepo @Gio @Skizzo all the best!

 

[Physiocrat]

@Šjor Bepo @Gio How do you see Moore suiting the high line?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Physiocrat can you delete / lock the other thread?

 

[Physiocrat]

@Physiocrat can you delete / lock the other thread?

@harms @Invictus

Can you do this please?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Šjor Bepo @Gio How do you see Moore suiting the high line?

Not ideal considering he probably never played in one so we dont know, isnt the fastest(thankfully skizzo’s attackers are not that fast, specially Seeler) but we saw plenty of defenders that lacked pace excell in a high line so we are pretty sure one of the best defensive brains of all time would manage to do it.

 

[Skizzo]

The problem with playing a high press, as we’ve seen through United’s struggles in trying to implement it, is that if you don’t have everyone knowing exactly when to press and where to be, the opposition can break through and now you’re exposed in a variety of areas.

You don’t need to have master ball players to break it, just competent passers who have avenues and players opening up for them.


Verratti often drops deep to find the ball, and can beat that first line with his own movement, opening up the field ahead. Not to mention Rivellino could “dribble in a phone booth” and again can break that press with a quick swivel or long, raking pass


There’s a reason teams can’t just decide to become press masters and start dominating, and we’ve seen that firsthand with United. You need an entire team to understand it and do it properly at the right time. You also need players comfortable pushing higher up, and while Moore is absolutely nowhere near a Maguire, it’s a completely different spacing on the pitch to understand, and against top tier players like my front three, there’s too many variables that could go wrong in a game of potentially fine margins.

 

[Gio]

@Šjor Bepo @Gio How do you see Moore suiting the high line?

He ticks a lot of boxes for me. His reading of the game was second to none, which means he was able to easily snuff out danger in behind. And like Baresi and Van Dijk, he's a righty playing on the left, which allows him to cover across and tackle with his strongest foot. He was great on the ball, which means it doesn't get easily surrendered in dangerous transition spaces. This is important as it's a big reason why the likes of Pique and Stones have excelled in high lines in the modern game. And he could handle pace and power, with his seminal performance against Brazil in 1970 snuffing out Pele and Jairzinho showing that, whatever he lacked in his own pace, was more than compensated by his anticipation and ball-winning ability.

 

[Gio]

The problem with playing a high press, as we’ve seen through United’s struggles in trying to implement it, is that if you don’t have everyone knowing exactly when to press and where to be, the opposition can break through and now you’re exposed in a variety of areas.

You don’t need to have master ball players to break it, just competent passers who have avenues and players opening up for them.


Verratti often drops deep to find the ball, and can beat that first line with his own movement, opening up the field ahead. Not to mention Rivellino could “dribble in a phone booth” and again can break that press with a quick swivel or long, raking pass


There’s a reason teams can’t just decide to become press masters and start dominating, and we’ve seen that firsthand with United. You need an entire team to understand it and do it properly at the right time. You also need players comfortable pushing higher up, and while Moore is absolutely nowhere near a Maguire, it’s a completely different spacing on the pitch to understand, and against top tier players like my front three, there’s too many variables that could go wrong in a game of potentially fine margins.

United and PSG are instructive case studies on the importance of an effective press in the modern game. United are a disjointed mess with players ill-suited to pressing high and defending high. In contrast we have pressing specialists in Son and Littbarski. The German also played in a central midfield three at Italia '90 such was his overall application and team ethos. Meanwhile, Hidegkuti was part of the first great high line, high energy national team. All intelligent, hard working, team-first players.

As for PSG, I am pretty confident that had Verratti enjoyed the benefit of playing with a front 3 that worked hard, then he would have won the CL by now. PSG always look great in the CL until the very end when they get over-ran and lose control of games due to a lack of graft up top. There can be other faults, but that's a fairly consistent theme in recent years.

What United and PSG both show is that their disjointed off-the-ball game up top is a big reason behind their respective underachievements. Get that sorted and they'll start to deliver on their potential. In the meantime though, they'll get picked off by better organised, harder working and more intelligent teams.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Ah, finally a 4-3-3, very nice!

 

[harms]

@Šjor Bepo @Gio How do you see Moore suiting the high line?

Not ideal considering he probably never played in one so we dont know, isnt the fastest(thankfully skizzo’s attackers are not that fast, specially Seeler) but we saw plenty of defenders that lacked pace excell in a high line so we are pretty sure one of the best defensive brains of all time would manage to do it.

England pushed it quite high up in 1966 with Moore especially excelling at snapping potential attacks with perfectly-timed interceptions (Charlton stayed deeper as a cover). It's a funny analogy but I often think that Maguire tries to play exactly like Moore did, except that he's horrible at timing, positioning and not that good at one-on-one defending which usually leads to disaster.

Moore faced enough fast-paced players and I don't think that I ever saw him having big troubles. He completely dominated Jairzinho in 1970 (feels odd to say considering that Jairzinho scored but anyone who had seen the game knows what I'm talking about), even though in 1970 England were using a deeper defensive line. Controlled Eusébio in 1966. George Best said that he only had one good game against him IIRC.

Literally any other player with his athletic characteristics would've been a potential issue in a high line, but not Moore. After making that Moore compilation from all of his games his positional aggressiveness in mid-60's stood out probably the most, before that I never thought about Moore in a high line.

 

[harms]

Although to be fair Džajić did get the better of Moore in 1968 even though it had nothing to do with his pace or high lines.

 

[harms]

My only concern is that Son & Littbarski may lack a bit in terms of goalscoring, but then Foden, Grealish, Mahrez etc. aren't natural born goalscorers either and it seems to work fine. Fullbacks are perfect for this tactic, both can even operate as false fullbacks if needed. Overath & Voronin are fantastic choices for this set up as well.

 

[Skizzo]

United and PSG are instructive case studies on the importance of an effective press in the modern game. United are a disjointed mess with players ill-suited to pressing high and defending high. In contrast we have pressing specialists in Son and Littbarski. The German also played in a central midfield three at Italia '90 such was his overall application and team ethos. Meanwhile, Hidegkuti was part of the first great high line, high energy national team. All intelligent, hard working, team-first players.

As for PSG, I am pretty confident that had Verratti enjoyed the benefit of playing with a front 3 that worked hard, then he would have won the CL by now. PSG always look great in the CL until the very end when they get over-ran and lose control of games due to a lack of graft up top. There can be other faults, but that's a fairly consistent theme in recent years.

What United and PSG both show is that their disjointed off-the-ball game up top is a big reason behind their respective underachievements. Get that sorted and they'll start to deliver on their potential. In the meantime though, they'll get picked off by better organised, harder working and more intelligent teams.

The fact that PSG haven’t won a CL isn’t because they don’t employ a high press. They’ve had issues about mentality, ego etc. To say if they employed a high press and they’d win paints a narrative of guaranteed success. If anything, in both those examples it just further highlights the point that if everyone from front to back isn’t understanding what needs to happen and when, then it can fall apart.

even just starting at the back, a high-press high-line without a sweeper keeper is already asking for trouble with all that dead space in between the keeper and defensive line. There’s too many variables that come into play anyway, even more so when the opposition has players who can beat a press.

 

[Skizzo]

The other issue with a high press is the toll it takes on the pressing team. The constant high-energy pressing, especially when the other team had broken the lines and you’ve had to reset and re-establish, is going to weigh heavy on the legs. Not something you’d want to suffer when Matthews is around. The man was into keeping himself at the peak of his fitness levels and was ahead of his time in that regard. Running the beaches, fasting, and watching is diet helped him max out his talent for as long as possible. It also helped him perform long into matches, the FA Cup final being of prime example.



Finding themselves down 3-1 with just over 20 minutes to play, Matthews, then 38-years-old, sprang to life on the wing. A quick in-out touch and burst by his marker, Matthews’ cross was met by Stan Mortensen who collided with the Bolton goalkeeper but turned the ball in. The commentator’s dry yet brilliant phrase hints at Blackpool’s rejuvenation in a game they had been outplayed in with: “Mortensen’s hurt his leg, but wild horses couldn’t keep him off the pitch at this stage of the game.”

Mortensen’s next goal, a driven free-kick, evened the affair thus setting the stage for a dramatic finish. In the dying seconds of the game, Matthews, displaying fluidity and intention, pulled off his standard move and finds Bill Perry who scores from short range to win the game.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

The problem with playing a high press, as we’ve seen through United’s struggles in trying to implement it, is that if you don’t have everyone knowing exactly when to press and where to be, the opposition can break through and now you’re exposed in a variety of areas.

You don’t need to have master ball players to break it, just competent passers who have avenues and players opening up for them.


Verratti often drops deep to find the ball, and can beat that first line with his own movement, opening up the field ahead. Not to mention Rivellino could “dribble in a phone booth” and again can break that press with a quick swivel or long, raking pass


There’s a reason teams can’t just decide to become press masters and start dominating, and we’ve seen that firsthand with United. You need an entire team to understand it and do it properly at the right time. You also need players comfortable pushing higher up, and while Moore is absolutely nowhere near a Maguire, it’s a completely different spacing on the pitch to understand, and against top tier players like my front three, there’s too many variables that could go wrong in a game of potentially fine margins.

I mean your United example is so off its unreal. I agree that its very hard to implement a high press, but in drafts we cant do much more then pick players that either fit or have good experience in a pressing team and we did exactly that. Its why we dropped our best offensive player, to get a hardworking front three with experience in pressing team. Whole team is build for the high press to fit with exception of Moore for who im not sure because of lack of my knowledge but i trust @harms opinion on it and tbf looking at his qualities as a player, there is no reason why it wouldnt work.

To break it you need players that can play against the pressure. While you have Verratti who is absolute master on it, you also have some dodgy ones that will struggle against the press and that i personally saw struggle against a press. Even if you had all players that were great, having Banks alone would make our tactics viable.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

My only concern is that Son & Littbarski may lack a bit in terms of goalscoring, but then Foden, Grealish, Mahrez etc. aren't natural born goalscorers either and it seems to work fine. Fullbacks are perfect for this tactic, both can even operate as false fullbacks if needed. Overath & Voronin are fantastic choices for this set up as well.

Son in his Spurs career almost has a goal every other game and reckon more then third of this games were outside the front three in a midfield four.
Littbarski had 4 seasons in a row for Koln where he went over 15 goals in the league!
Hidegkuti 265 goals in 381 games for club, 39 in 69 for the national team.
This is all without Overath and Bernardo who are also a goal threat.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Son was always brilliant but since Kane changed his game and started playing as a false 9 he became a brute force. Absolute perfection of a player - constant off the ball movement, ability on the ball, great goalscorer and on top of that a great team player as well as the hard worker, boy has it all. Its not a surprise they are heading to the top of the partnership record, if Kane stays they will easily sit on the top.
We have the similar partnership here, just a better version up front.

 

[Skizzo]

Son in his Spurs career almost has a goal every other game and reckon more then third of this games were outside the front three in a midfield four.
Littbarski had 4 seasons in a row for Koln where he went over 15 goals in the league!
Hidegkuti 265 goals in 381 games for club, 39 in 69 for the national team.
This is all without Overath and Bernardo who are also a goal threat.

Transfrmarket shows Son playing almost exclusively as a winger, CF, or AM for spurs. His goals are also a lot closer to one in three than one in two, but I won’t nitpick.

For all the talk of goals, you seem to paint this picture that Seeler is too slow to take advantage of a high-line and would struggle to have an impact.

• Ten straight seasons of 25+ goals.
• A season of 49 goals in 34 games
• 18 straight seasons of double digit tally’s
• A better than a goal a game average for Germany

Supported out left by Dzajic, (who harms touched on already had the best of Moore once, but I won’t dwell on that, even though that was another late winner against tired legs) who would love to have a defensive high-line ahead of him to work. Admired by Pele, Beckenbauer thought he was robbed of the Balon D’or, the Balkan miracle would enjoy that space and freedom


All it takes is one pass to beat the press, even a long ball out from defense, and our wingers are one on one with space to exploit.

Having those wingers one on one in open field also opens the possibility of fouls and free kicks, and with Dzajic and Rivellino around, there’s a very real threat from set pieces.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Another classic matchup.

Best use of Overath I've seen in drafts till date. Better midfield in this match.

Skizzo edges it because I rate his attack better. His midfield is sufficient to provide the edge to his forward trio!

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Transfrmarket shows Son playing almost exclusively as a winger, CF, or AM for spurs. His goals are also a lot closer to one in three than one in two, but I won’t nitpick.

For all the talk of goals, you seem to paint this picture that Seeler is too slow to take advantage of a high-line and would struggle to have an impact.

• Ten straight seasons of 25+ goals.
• A season of 49 goals in 34 games
• 18 straight seasons of double digit tally’s
• A better than a goal a game average for Germany

Supported out left by Dzajic, (who harms touched on already had the best of Moore once, but I won’t dwell on that, even though that was another late winner against tired legs) who would love to have a defensive high-line ahead of him to work. Admired by Pele, Beckenbauer thought he was robbed of the Balon D’or, the Balkan miracle would enjoy that space and freedom


All it takes is one pass to beat the press, even a long ball out from defense, and our wingers are one on one with space to exploit.

Having those wingers one on one in open field also opens the possibility of fouls and free kicks, and with Dzajic and Rivellino around, there’s a very real threat from set pieces.

Thankfully with regards to Son i dont have to rely on transfermark as i followed his career with my own eyes, when Poch was at Spurs Son played a lot as a wide left midfielder as Alli played behind Kane, sometimes even Eriksen.

Seeler is by far the best attacker on the pitch, its just i dont like the use of him and could see him struggle taking everything into consideration.

Your whole team is slow, both physically and in the way they use the ball. When you build around them and make them a start player it works, when you group them all together i just dont see it working. Yes Dzajic and Matthews are great wingers but from what i saw they would both prefer attacking the set up defence then a 100 mile per hour game where they need to act at pace. Both were masters of slowing down the game and then hurting you rather then fast breaks, attacking the spaces behind etc.


We didnt even start to talk about how both have a rather small work rate, when you think about it its funny you drew comparison with United when you carry two lazy ass superstars.

 

[Skizzo]

Thankfully with regards to Son i dont have to rely on transfermark as i followed his career with my own eyes, when Poch was at Spurs Son played a lot as a wide left midfielder as Alli played behind Kane, sometimes even Eriksen.

Son was an advanced player, not a left midfielder in a four like Giggs for example. He was always more advanced, like a left winger as mentioned.

Seeler is by far the best attacker on the pitch, its just i dont like the use of him and could see him struggle taking everything into consideration.

Hes great in the air and has multiple avenues of service, from both wings and deeper. He’s a great player With the ball at his feet and bringing other players into the game, and with the movement around him and the passing ability from deeper areas, I think he’d do well with the space in behind.

Your whole team is slow, both physically and in the way they use the ball. When you build around them and make them a start player it works, when you group them all together i just dont see it working. Yes Dzajic and Matthews are great wingers but from what i saw they would both prefer attacking the set up defence then a 100 mile per hour game where they need to act at pace. Both were masters of slowing down the game and then hurting you rather then fast breaks, attacking the spaces behind etc.

You can’t apply hypotheticals for your players and say they haven’t done X, Y or Z but their skill set translates to it, and then turn around and say you haven’t seen 1, 2 or 3 from the opposition. Both could get the ball to their feet and be direct and put the ball into the box, either in the air or with cut backs. The midfielders can also play the ball in behind with the attacking runs from Seeler, Dzajic etc. All the attackers on my side are capable of playing in more than just a slow, methodical way.

We didnt even start to talk about how both have a rather small work rate, when you think about it its funny you drew comparison with United when you carry two lazy ass superstars.

You seem to be taking this comment personally for some reason. I didn’t compare you directly to United, I used an example of the difficulty of implementing a very specific way of playing if everyone isnt used to it. Hence the “as we’ve seen with their struggles”. You even said yourself that it’s difficult to implement. I didn’t say it didn’t work in general, but Klopp didn’t come in and master it at Liverpool originally. Pep needed to get his players in for the system. People hoped Rangnick could get us doing it, but it’s not something you just set up and plan to do with people who haven’t done it and who haven’t been specifically instructed tactically when and where to press.

The defensive work rate of my “lazy ass Superstars” isn’t as pertinent to my entire game plan as you setting up in a very specific and regimented style, with everyone needing to understand very clearly when and how to press. It’s risky, and carries the potential to be opened up if not done flawlessly. The risk of setting up because I might pass the ball to Banks outweighs the need for you to have someone familiar with playing a sweeper-keeper role despite having a high line in front of him. This was my entire point with having a very specific system and the need to go 100% with it from back to front and have absolutely everyone a master of their specific role so there is minimal chances of exploitation.

 

[Skizzo]

“Upon resumption of the league for the 1946-47 season, Matthews seemed eager to add directness to his game. He ended up majorly contributing to 30 of his team's 41 goals. However, their attempt at winning the league fell just two points short of the eventual champions - Liverpool.”

Which isn’t bad for being slow and ponderous. Beat out Di Stefano for the first Balon D’or.

Plus comments from people who played with or against him:

Franz Beckenbauer said that the speed and skill Matthews possessed meant that "almost no one in the game could stop him". John Charles noted that "he was the best crosser I've ever seen – and he had to contend with the old heavy ball". Johnny Giles said that "he had everything – good close control, great dribbling ability and he was lightning quick. He was also an intelligent player, who knew how to pass the ball".

An outside right, before 1937-38 he had scored 43 goals in four seasons, and full-backs began to mark him more tightly; because of this he decided to drop deeper to collect the ball and aim to play pinpoint crosses as opposed to going for glory himself. Though he would never again score more than six goals in a season, this made him more an effective team player and a greater threat to the opposition.

His daughter Jean Gough told how Matthews would wear lead in his shoes walking to the ground, so that "when he put his football boots on they felt like ballerina shoes." Having trained to a level of fitness few other players would reach, by the mid-1950s he was able to cut back on his intense training as his level of fitness was by then ingrained in his body. He never smoked; instead, he was very conscious of every item of food and drink he consumed, and he maintained a rigid daily training regime from childhood up until his old age.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Son was an advanced player, not a left midfielder in a four like Giggs for example. He was always more advanced, like a left winger as mentioned.

Yeah fair enough, i can go with a winger definition. Point was and still is, he wasnt always a left forward like he is in last few seasons.

Hes great in the air and has multiple avenues of service, from both wings and deeper. He’s a great player With the ball at his feet and bringing other players into the game, and with the movement around him and the passing ability from deeper areas, I think he’d do well with the space in behind.

Having watched all games of Seeler available i will disagree, he is one of my favorite players but that Santos compilation really fecked up a perception of him as a player(which is perfect example why i couldnt care less what a player does in a friendly game). He is nothing special on the ball, fairly okay hold up play(all time level obvs) and not really someone that will escape defenders with his running hence the struggle against a high line, specially as his wing partners were on the slow side as well.
He has abundance of qualities, in the set up you playing you are only really using his heading ability and even thats a stretch considering our tactics.

You can’t apply hypotheticals for your players and say they haven’t done X, Y or Z but their skill set translates to it, and then turn around and say you haven’t seen 1, 2 or 3 from the opposition. Both could get the ball to their feet and be direct and put the ball into the box, either in the air or with cut backs. The midfielders can also play the ball in behind with the attacking runs from Seeler, Dzajic etc. All the attackers on my side are capable of playing in more than just a slow, methodical way.

of course but you have to have some basis for those hypotheticals.
Littbarski hard working player for pretty much his whole career, while for my knowledge he didnt play in a high press teams he was a part of compact teams.
Hidegkuti played in one of the first teams that pressed as a group, one of the first predecessors of a modern team
Yashin - one of the rare keepers with pro-active style back in the day, seen as one of the first keeper sweepers at the time
Moore - we immedietly said we dont know but his qualities fitted nicely, harms then said he even played in a higher line team and was brilliant at it

So as you see we are not turning water into wine, there is a method to our madness.
On the other hand you want to turn Dzajic/Matthews into high pace, high speed(use of the ball) wingers when they were never that. Their whole game was based around slow pace attacks, where they almost make you comfortable and then destroy you. That doesnt work here.

You seem to be taking this comment personally for some reason. I didn’t compare you directly to United, I used an example of the difficulty of implementing a very specific way of playing if everyone isnt used to it. Hence the “as we’ve seen with their struggles”. You even said yourself that it’s difficult to implement. I didn’t say it didn’t work in general, but Klopp didn’t come in and master it at Liverpool originally. Pep needed to get his players in for the system. People hoped Rangnick could get us doing it, but it’s not something you just set up and plan to do with people who haven’t done it and who haven’t been specifically instructed tactically when and where to press.

The defensive work rate of my “lazy ass Superstars” isn’t as pertinent to my entire game plan as you setting up in a very specific and regimented style, with everyone needing to understand very clearly when and how to press. It’s risky, and carries the potential to be opened up if not done flawlessly. The risk of setting up because I might pass the ball to Banks outweighs the need for you to have someone familiar with playing a sweeper-keeper role despite having a high line in front of him. This was my entire point with having a very specific system and the need to go 100% with it from back to front and have absolutely everyone a master of their specific role so there is minimal chances of exploitation.

Maybe, sorry for that
It just irked me as United is utter shit and im sick of them....then you compare them with our team, feck off
Specially because there is no basis for comparison.....United struggle with high press not because our training methods are shit, not because its a very difficult thing to master(mind you, both are true) but because players are just lazy and awful fits for the mentioned tactic - something you cant say about our team. I have no problems if people dont rate Son, Nandor or who ever, but all have a proven record of working hard and playing in a high press team or at least part of a compact team.

No matter what the tactics are, having 2 players that dont work hard is almost impossible to pull. I know people will disagree with me on that one but its beyond me how, how can you watch City/Liverpool/Bayern/Chelsea(feck lets put them cause of CL win) pissing over everyone and not see it. Its basic maths, 10 hardworking players is better then 8.
As for keeper sweeper, we have one. Because if we dont give old players benefit of the doubt that they would improve then we can just pick modern players as 99% of the oldies dont stand a chance. Obviously, there has to be a basis for that improvement.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

“Upon resumption of the league for the 1946-47 season, Matthews seemed eager to add directness to his game. He ended up majorly contributing to 30 of his team's 41 goals. However, their attempt at winning the league fell just two points short of the eventual champions - Liverpool.”

Which isn’t bad for being slow and ponderous. Beat out Di Stefano for the first Balon D’or.

Plus comments from people who played with or against him:


An outside right, before 1937-38 he had scored 43 goals in four seasons, and full-backs began to mark him more tightly; because of this he decided to drop deeper to collect the ball and aim to play pinpoint crosses as opposed to going for glory himself. Though he would never again score more than six goals in a season, this made him more an effective team player and a greater threat to the opposition.

His daughter Jean Gough told how Matthews would wear lead in his shoes walking to the ground, so that "when he put his football boots on they felt like ballerina shoes." Having trained to a level of fitness few other players would reach, by the mid-1950s he was able to cut back on his intense training as his level of fitness was by then ingrained in his body. He never smoked; instead, he was very conscious of every item of food and drink he consumed, and he maintained a rigid daily training regime from childhood up until his old age.

First, nobody said thats a bad thing in general. Football in that era was different and he/they were allowed to do so, nothing wrong with it. We just feel with this tactics he would be in trouble or at very least it would limit him input.
Second, dont put words in our mouths. We prefer donuts.

 

[Skizzo]

First, nobody said thats a bad thing in general. Football in that era was different and he/they were allowed to do so, nothing wrong with it. We just feel with this tactics he would be in trouble or at very least it would limit him input.
Second, dont put words in our mouths. We prefer donuts.

To address your second point first, if there’s donuts, I’m first in line. Perks of the job.

To circle back around now that I’ve been well fed, it’s gonna be an interpretation of the skill set. Like you said with Yashin, you look at their abilities and would it translate to what you’re doing? Matthews has the ability to be direct with the ball. Look at those FA cup highlights for example, beats his man and puts the ball across for two goals on separate occasions. The danger of having a high press is that if Matthews, or whoever, does beat their man, then you’re struggling to have people shift over and cover and it starts to open those spaces up. As you said earlier, Verratti is a master at beating the press, and he’s not even considered an elite dribbler in the sense of Dzajic, Matthews or Rivellino.

 

[Skizzo]

I’m on my phone, so if formatting comes out weird here then I apologize.

Yeah fair enough, i can go with a winger definition. Point was and still is, he wasnt always a left forward like he is in last few seasons.

That’s all I was saying. His skill set doesn’t change, but the left midfielder angle doesn’t go with his offensive output. He’s more involved offensively than a left midfielder would be. I

Having watched all games of Seeler available i will disagree, he is one of my favorite players but that Santos compilation really fecked up a perception of him as a player(which is perfect example why i couldnt care less what a player does in a friendly game). He is nothing special on the ball, fairly okay hold up play(all time level obvs) and not really someone that will escape defenders with his running hence the struggle against a high line, specially as his wing partners were on the slow side as well.
He has abundance of qualities, in the set up you playing you are only really using his heading ability and even thats a stretch considering our tactics.

I don’t think we’re necessarily disagreeing here, but probably evaluating his skill set differently. I still think he offers more than just a hopeful flick-on header or two. He’s not someone who will get the ball and turn and beat you, but he’s more than capable of receiving it and playing in other players. You also don’t need to be Mbappe to take advantage of a high line when you have the goalscoring prowess he does, as well as being surrounded by elite level players of creating and finding those chances.

of course but you have to have some basis for those hypotheticals.
Littbarski hard working player for pretty much his whole career, while for my knowledge he didnt play in a high press teams he was a part of compact teams.
Hidegkuti played in one of the first teams that pressed as a group, one of the first predecessors of a modern team
Yashin - one of the rare keepers with pro-active style back in the day, seen as one of the first keeper sweepers at the time
Moore - we immedietly said we dont know but his qualities fitted nicely, harms then said he even played in a higher line team and was brilliant at it

So as you see we are not turning water into wine, there is a method to our madness.
On the other hand you want to turn Dzajic/Matthews into high pace, high speed(use of the ball) wingers when they were never that. Their whole game was based around slow pace attacks, where they almost make you comfortable and then destroy you. That doesnt work here.

I don’t think i said those things, so maybe we need more donuts. There’s a difference between playing at pace, and playing with pace. To think Dzajic and Matthews aren’t intelligent enough players to find space in behind a high line, well we won’t agree then. It’s not like they’d beat a man, and be so slow that the defender can get back in front again. They have the ability to beat a defender on the dribble, which is what can cause the issues for your press. If Verratti or Rivellino find the pass out wide, then your team has to shuffle, then if that defender is beaten (which will happen, not every time, but it will happen) then we’ve beaten the press and now it’s a matter of making the right choices with the space given. Dzajic, Matthews, Rivellino, Seeler, all players who could exploit that given space.

Maybe, sorry for that
It just irked me as United is utter shit and im sick of them....then you compare them with our team, feck off
Specially because there is no basis for comparison.....United struggle with high press not because our training methods are shit, not because its a very difficult thing to master(mind you, both are true) but because players are just lazy and awful fits for the mentioned tactic - something you cant say about our team. I have no problems if people dont rate Son, Nandor or who ever, but all have a proven record of working hard and playing in a high press team or at least part of a compact team.

No matter what the tactics are, having 2 players that dont work hard is almost impossible to pull. I know people will disagree with me on that one but its beyond me how, how can you watch City/Liverpool/Bayern/Chelsea(feck lets put them cause of CL win) pissing over everyone and not see it. Its basic maths, 10 hardworking players is better then 8.
As for keeper sweeper, we have one. Because if we dont give old players benefit of the doubt that they would improve then we can just pick modern players as 99% of the oldies dont stand a chance. Obviously, there has to be a basis for that improvement.

No apology necessary for that. I’d probably be on edge too if someone compared a team of mine to this current United team

 

[Šjor Bepo]

To address your second point first, if there’s donuts, I’m first in line. Perks of the job.

To circle back around now that I’ve been well fed, it’s gonna be an interpretation of the skill set. Like you said with Yashin, you look at their abilities and would it translate to what you’re doing? Matthews has the ability to be direct with the ball. Look at those FA cup highlights for example, beats his man and puts the ball across for two goals on separate occasions. The danger of having a high press is that if Matthews, or whoever, does beat their man, then you’re struggling to have people shift over and cover and it starts to open those spaces up. As you said earlier, Verratti is a master at beating the press, and he’s not even considered an elite dribbler in the sense of Dzajic, Matthews or Rivellino.

I think im struggling to put my point across because of bad wording......im not denying Matthews was a brilliant dribbler and a brilliant player, its just that he wasnt killing his opponents at pace(probably didnt need to but still hard to swallow the translations when that was never a thing in his game) which is also very difficult if you only play with the ball, automatically you slow down a game. Again, this is not a critic its just my view of his game and Dzajic as well.
Problem your side is facing that you have 3 players behind Seeler that play with ball in their feet but not really without and that makes it pretty "easy" to defend.
Its high risk high reward tactic im not denying that but we have brilliant defenders and Voronin in protection. You can hardly have a better backup then this, specially in this draft.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I’m on my phone, so if formatting comes out weird here then I apologize.

no worries

I don’t think we’re necessarily disagreeing here, but probably evaluating his skill set differently. I still think he offers more than just a hopeful flick-on header or two. He’s not someone who will get the ball and turn and beat you, but he’s more than capable of receiving it and playing in other players. You also don’t need to be Mbappe to take advantage of a high line when you have the goalscoring prowess he does, as well as being surrounded by elite level players of creating and finding those chances.

Obviously i dont think he is Pippo dont get me wrong, he was fine on the ball just nowhere near as good as that Santos compilation made him look.
Agreed, you dont need Mbappe to break the high line but you need players will to play at pace if they dont posses pace which means simple football, one or two touch football and hitting teams on the break but then you look at your team and what you have, 4 players that love the ball more then their mother. I just dont see enough movement on the ball and could see similar struggles of the current PSG team(take that!).

I don’t think i said those things, so maybe we need more donuts. There’s a difference between playing at pace, and playing with pace. To think Dzajic and Matthews aren’t intelligent enough players to find space in behind a high line, well we won’t agree then. It’s not like they’d beat a man, and be so slow that the defender can get back in front again. They have the ability to beat a defender on the dribble, which is what can cause the issues for your press. If Verratti or Rivellino find the pass out wide, then your team has to shuffle, then if that defender is beaten (which will happen, not every time, but it will happen) then we’ve beaten the press and now it’s a matter of making the right choices with the space given. Dzajic, Matthews, Rivellino, Seeler, all players who could exploit that given space.

thats exactly what im talking about so we probably wont agree on that. They will find space, will they exploit it thats another question.
They can beat a man of course but on the break that will happen far from the goal and both Demy and Amoros are superior athletes that will recover. Problem is, they spent their career playing in a final third, close to goal so their slower(both at and with) was not an issue. Here on the break where you need movement on the ball, simplified one, two touch football i can see them struggle as that was never their game, thats all im saying.

Also, how would your team deal with us overloading sides with either Amoros or Demy overlapping? Its a suicidal tactic IMO specially with Hidegkuti, Litt and Bernardo who are masters of dribbling and creating space and time for both themself and others.

 

[Skizzo]

I think im struggling to put my point across because of bad wording......im not denying Matthews was a brilliant dribbler and a brilliant player, its just that he wasnt killing his opponents at pace(probably didnt need to but still hard to swallow the translations when that was never a thing in his game) which is also very difficult if you only play with the ball, automatically you slow down a game. Again, this is not a critic its just my view of his game and Dzajic as well.
Problem your side is facing that you have 3 players behind Seeler that play with ball in their feet but not really without and that makes it pretty "easy" to defend.
Its high risk high reward tactic im not denying that but we have brilliant defenders and Voronin in protection. You can hardly have a better backup then this, specially in this draft.

Maybe we’re both arguing different points here I think I get your point (possibly lol) but my point is that if we break your high press, either by a quick pass through the lines, or Verratti turning out of it etc, then getting the ball to Matthews with open space behind your defense is trouble. I understand that he’s not a Bale, Robben, Ronaldo etc in terms of direct pace and running straight at a defense, but getting him one on one against a full back with space in behind, I’d back him to be able to create chances. I’m talking strictly in my attacking game there, not comparing the work rate of a Matthews to a Son, but I see enough in my players to beat your press, and enough in my attackers to take their chances.

 

[General_Elegancia]

@Šjor Bepo @Gio How do you see Moore suiting the high line?

@Gio @Šjor Bepo midfielders are known for workrates and ball-winning ability(yeah including Overath). When you play 4-3-3 with high-line, you must really have work rate to track the ball back when you lose possesion aka Guardiola 5 seconds rule ( counter pressing and pressing triggers). The purpose of high line everyone knows that it is created to support the teams to aim the ball back in 5-7 seconds and yeah Overath-Bernado and Voronin would be very fit in this regard. When you play 4-3-3 Guardiola's system, I think midfielders are very important yeah even more than defenders.

This team has Yashin who is considered to be the pioneer of sweeper keepers and he would often come off the line for sure, their midfielders have ability to play possession football( very creative with excellent work rate) and always win the ball back(especially Bernado) and Son and Litti are known for their hardworking off the ball . I don't think having Bobby in high line would be a big problem in this set-up and you can imagine if Ruben Dias who isn't a fast defender could adapt in Guardiola's high-line very well, yeah Moore would be happy with it.

From I have checked defensive duos that have played in high-line, there often have one fast defender and one slow defender.

Baresi(fast)-Billy(slow)
Van Dijk(fast)-Matip(medium-slow)
Dias(medium-slow)- Stones(medium-slow)
Moore(medium-slow)-Braseth(fast)

So, I don't think Moore has a problem and England 1966 wasn't played deep defensive line too(not that high but wasn't deep).

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Maybe we’re both arguing different points here I think I get your point (possibly lol) but my point is that if we break your high press, either by a quick pass through the lines, or Verratti turning out of it etc, then getting the ball to Matthews with open space behind your defense is trouble. I understand that he’s not a Bale, Robben, Ronaldo etc in terms of direct pace and running straight at a defense, but getting him one on one against a full back with space in behind, I’d back him to be able to create chances. I’m talking strictly in my attacking game there, not comparing the work rate of a Matthews to a Son, but I see enough in my players to beat your press, and enough in my attackers to take their chances.

your defense has too many leaking points for Verratti too pull you through, there is just to many trap potentials there where it would be fairly easy to cut Verratti from the play and open space for a weak point.
From little i saw Pavoni didnt look like someone that is something extra on the ball, i watched Kaltz struggle against a press with my own eyes few times and obviously there is Banks....can give CBs benefit of the doubt though personally im not sure about Shesternyov on the ball but because of lack of knowledge and reputation can give him a free pass.

then you go back to the share numbers of overloads we can achieve on the ball with both Dzajic and Matthews not covering back. If you add to the equation our tight space dribblers that can create space(and the space will be there even without them dribbling), i reckon we have a much bigger chance of scoring then you on the break. But im sure we will disagree on that one

 

[General_Elegancia]

I think change someone from Matthews to another one who has the ability to beat the line or more of a wing-forward would suit better in term of beat high defensive line(like Son).

 

[Skizzo]

your defense has too many leaking points for Verratti too pull you through, there is just to many trap potentials there where it would be fairly easy to cut Verratti from the play and open space for a weak point.
From little i saw Pavoni didnt look like someone that is something extra on the ball, i watched Kaltz struggle against a press with my own eyes few times and obviously there is Banks....can give CBs benefit of the doubt though personally im not sure about Shesternyov on the ball but because of lack of knowledge and reputation can give him a free pass.

then you go back to the share numbers of overloads we can achieve on the ball with both Dzajic and Matthews not covering back. If you add to the equation our tight space dribblers that can create space(and the space will be there even without them dribbling), i reckon we have a much bigger chance of scoring then you on the break. But im sure we will disagree on that one

If Pavoni had any impact on this game at all I’d be rather impressed

 

[Himannv]

Are Matthews and Djajic suited to a 4-3-3 or is this a 4-2-3-1 disguised as a 4-3-3?

 

[Skizzo]

Are Matthews and Djajic suited to a 4-3-3 or is this a 4-2-3-1 disguised as a 4-3-3?

They aren’t the Robben/Ribery inverted winger type if that’s what you’re asking? They’d both be more of a stretch the play, get by their man and create a chance. Gemmell is a right footed left back who would work some areas inside of where Dzajic would be, and Kaltz and Matthews would both work in tandem to get the ball into central areas.

Dzajic is the more prolific of the two and would also make runs centrally towards goal with Rivellino drifting left, or Gemmell occupying that space.

 

[Gio]

The other issue with a high press is the toll it takes on the pressing team. The constant high-energy pressing, especially when the other team had broken the lines and you’ve had to reset and re-establish, is going to weigh heavy on the legs.

To some extent. But not so much when you combine the high press with a high line. The beauty of that combination is the compactness. If you can make the team defend a 20-25 yard vertical space, then it significantly reduces the amount of running your team has to do. What saps the legs more than anything is a team that is too strung out with big gaps between defence, midfield and attack. The whole strategy here is to maximise that compactness to squeeze the game and rob the ball from the your back five who won't be able to play out very often at all.

Aligning the qualities of the players to that system is critical. Demyanenko and Amoros were Duracell bunnies who could run all day and dominate their flanks at both ends of the park. Demyanenko was part of that fantastic high-octane Kyiv team in the 1980s who could be dropped into the modern game and still stand out for their energy and hustle. Amoros was expected to boss the entire wing for France in their narrow 4-2-2-2 shape in the 1980s. We've already covered Son and Littbarski who offer more of the same. Meanwhile, the midfield with Voronin and Bernardo Silva in particular can run all day with Bernardo boasting ridiculous pressing abilities and typically covering the most distance on the park.

You've probably got one of the greatest possible teams for breaking down a deep defence. Dzajic and Matthews are phenomenal 1v1, Seeler is incredible in the penalty box and Rivelino is ruthless from the edge of the box. It's hard to envisage a better set-up for unlocking a bunkered-down team. But they are some way from the peak of their powers on the half-way line.

 

[harms]

Are Matthews and Djajic suited to a 4-3-3 or is this a 4-2-3-1 disguised as a 4-3-3?

Džajić is a great fit for a left forward in 4-3-3 — his goal record speaks for itself and he had great poacher's instincts (which is not something that you'd generally expect from a winger) — Moore can tell you about it better than anyone.


Matthews — probably less so, he's one of the most orthodox wingers ever in my opinion and his best position would always be as an outside right in a front 5. Even though, like every great player, he had some variety to his game and he obviously could cut in & score himself.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Džajić is a great fit for a left forward in 4-3-3 — his goal record speaks for itself and he had great poacher's instincts (which is not something that you'd generally expect from a winger) — Moore can tell you about it better than anyone.


Matthews — probably less so, he's one of the most orthodox wingers ever in my opinion and his best position would always be as an outside right in a front 5. Even though, like every great player, he had some variety to his game and he obviously could cut in & score himself.

Think Rivellino makes Matthews work. Probably amongst the beat choices to accommodate an orthodox winger in a 4-3-3. And of course, Dzajis moving centrally when the build up is on the right seems on spot.

 

[General_Elegancia]

Skizzo impresses me one thing, Rivelino and Veratti. If I want someone who can beat a high press from workhorses, Rivelino and Veratti are probably right choice for this. Rivelino in modern football would be very fit for lcm/lam in 4-3-3 ( aka Iniesta role).