Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Pogue Mahone, May 7, 2019.
More than 2 wins in 11 games would be a nice start.
This is an interesting video in the whole, however, watch up until 2:52 because he talks about Sir Alex Ferguson and Game Theory in application as it relates to the 2004/2007 period in which we weren't success, which would be fairly comparable to now.
I think I responded earlier to this but I've since revised my opinion. I initially thought Top 4 would be relatively easy to get in light of Arsenal likely only having £50m net to spend and Chelsea being severely handicapped by the transfer ban and Hazard leaving, but looking at who we are likely targeting (young players who can be moulded and grown) I think we'll likely have an up and down season and one that'll be a slow burner, with us starting the season off the pace, but incrementally improving week, by week.
I think we should be good for around 80 points in the league bearing in mind we likely will be using quite a few of the kids in the EL (in the early stages at least) and saving our main men for the league and domestic cups, and won't have had the Jose-induced handicap we had this season. Whether that will be enough for Top 4, is a different matter, but as long as I can finally see some identity within this team, I'll be happy.
Ole also simply needs to back up his words and start the clear out. We won't ship out all of the deadwood because those contracts that they're on will make it impossible, but if by the start of next season Darmian, Rojo, Valencia, Mata, Sanchez are gone, it will be a start. Then next summer, we ship out Young, Jones, Lukaku we should finally be on an even keel in terms of it being Ole's proper squad. Smalling I'd be happy to keep as a squad player, but the rest need to be turfed out.
We can then use the freed up squad places for the Academy players and potential signings. We likely won't have anyone big come in this summer, which is fine as whoever comes in should be able to improve us to the extent of winning the EL.
The season after however, should see us really compete in the market if we win the EL and bring in real quality and see us develop further, it will likely need a season of bedding in for those signings which means the target should be us finishing comfortably in Top 4 and then in 21/22 we should hopefully see the fully complete and evolved team which will compete with City and Liverpool.
I just hope the board have the patience for this to come to fruition, because right now, competing for the league or even Top 4, with this set of players is wholly unrealistic.
No big expectations from me. Top half of the table is ok as long as there is clear evidence he is working towards getting us playing football again and developing an enjoyable and coherent playing style. With the caveat that he gets rid of a substantial number of our squad. This squad is capable of a top 6 finish, so if he sticks largely with the current squad anything below top 6 and a deep run in at least one cup is sackable.
Break the City and Liverpool dominance. So 2nd place for me and I'm happy.
I'd expect us to finish at around 80 points with the feeling that this new United side has gained some momentum at last and it's finally started to look like a team that's going places in near future.
I wouldn't demand of him a top-four finish because the level of competition is going to be very high and we can't control how well the other teams around us will perform. What we can control though is how well we'll do ourselves, that's why i suggested the 80-points mark which is reasonable enough for a club of our wealth. Otherwise, we should carve Mourinho's quote about "the miracle of finishing second" in stone and place it just outside OT.
And no, playing gung-ho football while leaking goals left, right and centre and loitering in the middle of the table, simply won't cut it for me.
An identity would be nice.
Some young players integrated.
Lukaku and Pogba out.
Just some positivity and patience from everyone.
Minimum expectation is to play a certain style of football, be it possession based or counter attacking or a high pressing game. The style should be consistent across the season. Where united finish is irrelevant. Get the team to play good football and discard any players who cannot fit into it. Then start buying new players to fit the system.
Should stay away from signing big name players.
First i expect bad transfer window. Most of deadwood will stay here and we will bring our C or D targets. We will lose Pogba and maybe De gea.
So with that team we will have average start in season. We will beat at home smaller clubs, lose against big clubs and draw against midtable clubs. It will result with Ole's sacking in december while we will be 7th or 8th in PL table.
Yes, it is all doom and gloom for me at this moment.
Top 4 for me is the bare minimum provided that we sign at least 3 new players. Semi finals in EL too.
I think we can challenge for 4th with Arsenal. Chelsea might be in a similar state to us but not able to bring players in, at least we have that.
So Jose could finish 2nd with this lot because he spent money? Doesn't make sense to me. This squad of donkeys got 81 points last year, they also won the EL, they are also the third best in the league since Ole took over. Even with all this mess we're close to Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham. Just because we're rebuilding doesn't mean we won't and can't compete. It's only the top 2 that look far ahead at the moment.
This is unrelated but will VAR be used in the Premier League next year ? I’ve googled but doesn't seem like there is confirmation yet.
Just finished watching Take the ball, Pass the ball on Amazon Prime, really hammers home how utterly shite we’ve been run over the past few years and also how you need an absolute top manager to succeed at the very top, we’re fecked.
On a side note, if you love footy, it’s a great watch.
Here's the thing the PL is only going to get more competitive next season with Leicester, Wolves, West Ham and Everton all progressing. But purely from a CEO's point of view, the Glaziers, as stupid as they are will want to know why in the last 6 years they have spent the second most amount of money in net transfers sales and have the highest or second highest wage budget in the premier league, in other words if you as an Employer pays the highest salaries then you expect the best results.
Season 1 under Ed Woodward and David Moyes- 7th Place - 2nd highest Wages
Season 2 under Ed Woodward and LVG - 4th place - 1st Highest Wages
Season 3 under Ed Woodward and LVG - 5th place - 2nd Highest Wages
Season 4 under Ed Woodward and Jose - 6th place - 1st Highest Wages
Season 5 under Ed Woodward and Jose - 2nd place - 1st Highest Wages
Season 6 under Ed Woodward and Jose/Ole - 6th Place - 1st Highest Wages
If you analyse Sir Alex's teams who were never the highest paid always 2nd or 3rd to Chelsea and City, yet his teams never finished lower than third and David Gill dovetailed brilliantly. The problem is clear to see, the best thing is for the Glaziers to sell the club and a new billionaire Chairmen who is fit for purpose, swings the Axe on the tool that is Ed Woodward!
I want you to contrast your post with @Woziak below. Unfortunately, the history of Woodwards reign points to the below. Your very sensible approach is just...much too sensible for an egomaniac like Woodward.
Spot on. From the get go, this is what we've seen happen again and again with our transfers. I don't understand how anyone on this forum can forget either.
Remind me, wasn't Martial one of Woodward's signings that LVG knew nothing about? Or was it Falcao? Or both.
There was a more recent interview by Jose where he clarified his claim that getting second was his biggest achievement. It really sounded as though it had more to do with the behind the scenes workings at the club than just the quality of players at his disposal.
It is possible for a squad to punch above its weight under the right conditions. That's what happened last season. That's said the quality is what it is and as they say while form is temporary class is permanent
Most of what Mou said was true. The squad is not good enough, we have alot of deadwood and finishing second with that tripe was a great achievement. What Mou conveniently leaves out is the fact he spent 400m to assembly that tripe. He is as much as guilty as Moyes and LvG who were shocking on the transfer market + Woody who enabled them. Mou doesn't see that as a problem as he believes in a FM approach were clubs allow managers to keep buying new players to replace past failures with no accountability whatsoever. Bailly's does not work? Buy lindelof. Lindelof is not good enough? Buy Toby. Record signing Pogba doesn't run enough for his taste? (he never did BTW, not even at Juve) buy Fred. Fred isn't up to his tastes? Well put a 50m investment on the bench without bothering giving him a chance and ask for someone else. That's the reason why not even inter wants him back. You can't have that approach to football anymore. Players cost too much money
Ole can't be blamed for this. It's not his squad and he deserves the same time and levels of investment others were given to get things right. It took Sir alex years to dismantle a side with the wrong attitude. He also added a horde of players as well and the results in the beginning were shocking
So what I would judge ole on is progress. If next season we remove the tripe, bring in players with the right attitude and talent to succeed, give youths a real shot and we play better football than this year then that would be a success.
Top 6, but we need to start showing we can play "the United way" as Ole kept on telling us. I think next season should be sort the state of the clubs structure out. If we can get Woody to step aside and get football people into the director positions then that's a massive positive and I'd take that then top 4 next season.
Premier League: Top 4
Europa League: Quarter-final
FA-cup: It depends on the draws, but a Semi-final would be nice
League-cup: Doesn't matter, just play the youngsters
+ improve our fitness level and ovbiously we need playing more attractive football
If united is not winning the title next season then does it really matter where we finish ? Not saying we should not care at all. The club should definitely do a retrospective and fix the basic things.
If Ole is not supported well in the transfer window , does he have the balls to walk out ? Ole should get what he wants and then we see whether he can improve our football. If not this is going to go in a downward spiral.
my expectation is top four and qualifying for the champions league. Anything less than that is a failure and I would question Ole. I don't understand why people think a 5th or 6th place finish and not getting champions league football is acceptable. Its another case of lowering expectations. Before you say my expectations are too high, I don't expect us at all to challenge for the title. That's just a pipe dream and a miraculous bonus.
That's a failure in my eyes. Top four should be a realistic target. I don't understand why people are saying this. We are not that far behind Arsenal and Chelsea.
To be honest a title challenge isn't realistic. Manchester City and Liverpool are miles ahead of us at the moment.
2019/2020: Progress being made towards a cohesive way of playing football, a plan on the pitch.
2020/2021 season: top four
2021/2022 season: top three and a cup
2022/2023 season: challenging for the title
Top 4 should be a minimum next season.
Chelsea will lose Hazard. Arsenal will still be Arsenal.
If you think we're gonna have a clearout fm style I'd love whatever you're smoking.
There are reasons why they're called deadwoods. Because no teams would want to purchase them. Those that needs them can't afford them. Those that can afford them dont need them. Sanchez is in retirement home, martial is unwanted with his baggages and lately his 250k per week will deter any clubs. Herrera got 200k not because he's worth that much, but due to him being out of contract with virtually no transfer fee just like what we did with sanchez.
Forget about selling sanchez. We'd be lucky if someone can pay his salary and take him away for free.
Genuinely think we will finish around mid table next season. Probably below the likes of Leicester, Wolves, Everton. We'll be in amongst it with Watford and West Ham.
My only hops is to see the last of Woody next season, anything else before that is a bonus.
Oh, and on the pitch, just good football and some pride.
Really annoys me that Solskjaer says that it would be a miracle to win the title next year. What message does that send to players we are trying to sign. He is right but did he had to say it to the world with our best players linked away.
To enjoy watching us again, to not dread the experience of us playing. A style and to gain a belief we’re going in the right direction. I don’t expect a title challenge, it would be lunacy to suggest otherwise, but to just perform somewhere close to how we should would be massively refreshing after the dross we’ve endured.
I think we are likely to finish around 6th or 7th.
Honestly next season seems like a write off and he will leave at some point during it. I wasn't very enthusiastic at the start of this season. Even less so for next.
I fear we will sell like the Caf wants but people will be gunning for the new players heads not soon after. Next season will be toxic. Maybe even to the levels of Moyes season.
Less than top 4 is clear downgrading of expectations. This shouldn't be allowed. We had closed the deficit of 11 points of a disaster start in 2 months. Why should it be acceptable to finish outside of it starting from clean slate and full window?
Guessing that there's much more to it than it meets the eye. The direction Ole seems to be heading is not to sign ready made players as he has already said. Just throwing out an example here, Bale, if we sign him, would probably cost us maybe >80mil and would demand a hell lot more wages. Has every chance to be the next Sanchez. And Ole is just being real here, if we sign players by telling them that we are gonna challenge for the title next season, when that doesn't happen, unrest and instability would occur again. A rebuild wont work if we are constantly chopping and changing our players, the players that we need now are those that believe in Ole's plan for the next few years.
Im pretty sure behind the scenes, this couple of weeks has been very hard for the people handling contracts at the club. With those rumored 25% wage cut and players wanting to leave and not come because we aint top 4, Ole's trying to prevent a repeat of this i guess. Maybe privately, he would tell the players that top 4 is the target. But i'm pretty sure that even the players wont believe it if he tells them we are gonna win the title next season. Our best players would also love to win trophies and titles, what if Ole promises them silverware next season and it doesnt happens? These primadonnas are gonna kick up the same shit again like this time, demanding new contracts with higher pay just to offset the 25% wage cut or something similar.
Players that we need now are actually those that buy into Ole's way of management and beliefs. And if a top player is willing to do that, then sure we should go for him. If not, i would rather have a group of humble and hardworking players that knows what needs to be done.
To be honest I don't see how is that different to what any other clubs are doing. Especially City who bought a truckload of players for huge fees until they found the right ones and are now being praised for having a clear plan.
Jose may have overachieved last season but you wouldn't find a single person sharing that opinion at the time. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Not all his signings were bad. Sanchez was a disaster and we overpaid for Lukaku but he is easily a good enough forward for getting into top 4 at least for instance. Ole's own run before getting hired permanently surely shows that the ability is there to compete.
This huge overhaul that people are expecting is not happening imo. I would expect a good manager to get us top 4 going from here, Ole should be no different.
Given the issues at the club and the way it looks like recruitment is going to go, I think we should qualify for the Europa League again, perhaps with a decent FA Cup run. If he is adamant about bringing young players in, like Daniel James, there is nothing more we can realistically expect. And...I'm ok with that. The club needs root and branch reform. We won't get it, but he's making a start on the playing side at least. It'll be a slow process.
Without the distraction of the Champions League and with a couple of shrewd signings I think we can achieve:
1) Top 2 (we finished 2nd last season!)
2) FA Cup (we finished runners up last season and won it 2015/2016)
3) Europa League (again we won this in 2016/2017)
4) League Cup (again we won this recently in 2016/2017)
5/6th. Nothing more, nothing less as our board have showed our ambition by hiring a manager with no success or experience & is expected to have the right skills to oversee massive player recruitment.
I genuinely worry about us now- were falling behind other teams at an alarming rate
The very best would be sneaking in the Top 4. EL out of group stages, maybe Q/F. Then the F.A. Cup it is about the luck of the draw. Good draw who knows what could happen. Carabao Cup not sure I care, but it is a trophy to be won. I am not setting my expectation too high. Especially as we do not yet what squad we will be left with. I am just not sure about Ole.
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