Experienced third choice keeper, necessary?

[SAFMUTD]

United Academy and I were discussing wether having an experienced third goalkeeper on the squad is necessary or not.

My opinion is that the scenario of having the first and second choice GKs injured and needing third keeper is so unlikely that we should get rid of Grant and just use the U23 GK if needed.

Just to add to the context, Grant has played a grand total of 2 games since his arrival and none of them had been because needed but mostly just to give him some minutes and make him feel part of the team.

United Academy on the other hand, says that by having the U23 as third choice you are stalling the players progress and that player should be loaned instead of playing in the U23.

So whats your opinion? Is it necessary to have an experienced goal keeper or not?

If the mods can add a survey that be great.

 

[Pexbo]

Absolutely necessary. It’s rare that they are required but can be catastrophic if you rely on a youngster, for both club and youngster.

 

[Gopher Brown]

Lee Grant is probably better than Matej Kovar, so probably a better choice for third keeper.

It’s not like either will get game time unless it’s an emergency.

Loaning young players isn’t some panacea for producing worldies. Look at our experiences with loaning.

 

[Samid]

Why would the United academy be listening to a randomer on the internet? Are you an ITK?

 

[Skills]

I'm personally not a fan of depth for depth's sake if you genuinely believe in your youth system. It's pointless waste of money/resources and blocks up the path to the first team squad for talented players, who might have a shot. I understand that most young players aren't good enough to actually make it through, but usually they aren't bad enough to really cost you if you give them a shot on the periphery anyway.

Goalkeeper's a weird one though, because realistically a 3rd choice goalkeeper isn't getting game time. Young goalkeepers need games under their belt, so you're better loaning them out to get that game time. Fullbacks though, you don't need both back up left-back and right-backs. Have a senior back up that can cover both flanks, with a youth player picking up the other games (i.e. the position Williams was in).

 

[limerickcitykid]

It is almost impossible to be third choice keeper and the u23s keeper. Majority of u23s matches are Friday nights and first team Saturday mornings. Players can’t be in two locations at once. They’d also have to miss half of first team training to be with the u23s.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Absolutely necessary. It’s rare that they are required but can be catastrophic if you rely on a youngster, for both club and youngster.

Yes sometimes it may be a dissaster and completely ruin the players confidence, but lets be honest if a player can’t handle pressure by his 20s then he most likely wouldnt been good enough anyway.

On the other hand you may end up surprised and find out a real talent, for example thats the way Casillas and Donarumma end up playing first team football.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Goalkeeper's a weird one though, because realistically a 3rd choice goalkeeper isn't getting game time. Young goalkeepers need games under their belt, so you're better loaning them out to get that game time. Fullbacks though, you don't need both back up left-back and right-backs. Have a senior back up that can cover both flanks, with a youth player picking up the other games (i.e. the position Williams was in).

The option I propose is not having a third choice keeper per se. Most clubs work this way, if needed then they’ll play a youngster, but if not they the youngster plays in the U23.

We didn’t had a third choice keeper before Grant for example.

 

[SAFMUTD]

It is almost impossible to be third choice keeper and the u23s keeper. Majority of u23s matches are Friday nights and first team Saturday mornings. Players can’t be in two locations at once. They’d also have to miss half of first team training to be with the u23s.

youre not required to have two keepers on the bench, in most cases you dont. So you dont need the third keeper training or traveling with the squad unless one of the two goalkeepers is injured.

The youngster wouldnt be a third goal keeper per se, but would be available if needed, while its highly unlikely.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

It's necessary if at least either one of the first two choices are injury prone.

Ours are not, so no.

Iirc we get Grant last time because of Romero's injury, it turns out to be a serious injury which made him missed the last WC, so there's the fear that it'll affects him. It's a good early contingency planning by the club, supposedly short term with possibly of being "permanent" if worst case scenario, but now Sergio is back on his normal form and fit again. No sign of getting worse or being injury prone.

So we don't need experienced 3rd keeper anymore.

Our academy or reserve or unders- have plenty of keepers right? doubt they'll play for their every respective matches.

 

[groovyalbert]

Necessary - it allows the likes of Henderson and Pereira to be sent out on season-long loans rather than sitting around waiting for their chance to fill a place on the bench.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

The option I propose is not having a third choice keeper per se. Most clubs work this way, if needed then they’ll play a youngster, but if not they the youngster plays in the U23.

We didn’t had a third choice keeper before Grant for example.

the idea of having a third choice keeper like Grant is so that Periera and Henderson can play competitive matches.

What good would it be if Henderson had been out 3rd choice keeper for the past 2 years, he would never make it as a pro keeper due to lack of action.

I understand Grant is also part coach, he’s at the end of his career, and is in a role that helps the other keepers develop.

I understand your point that he doesn’t play, but he’s an insurance policy that allows promising keepers to go and develop and so he’s needed.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

If De Gea and Romero suddenly gets injured and/or suspended (eventhough the latter is unlikely), who would you rather have playing?

The experienced 3rd keeper or our young keepers?

I much prefer to see our youngsters. Sink or swim. Either way they'll get exps.

If you're concerned about them flopping it up and then their career gets worse, then it just means they're not the right fit to be United keeper. Plenty of keepers tried and fail, and only a few are worthy. Best to know early, if you can't hack it here, then follow the examples of others eg. Heaton or Foster, who managed to get a fairly good career elsewhere. Foster failed here but didn't elsewhere.

 

[sullydnl]

You have a designated third choice goalkeeper because you want someone who is consistently involved in first team training and planning, just in case they have to step in. Often they're also there to help with the training. An underage player doesn't fit that mold as (unsurprisingly) they're better off training with the actual underage team they play for. Also, a third choice goalkeeper is far more likely to be sitting on the bench than playing. Which is a waste of time for a young goalkeeper who could actually be playing instead.

U23 goalkeepers have their own job to do, their own ambition and their own path to progression, all of which requires hard work on their part. Their focus should be on that, not on being a place filler for the first team squad.

So if the alternative is stopping a young goalkeeper from going out on loan just so you have cover or wasting a young goalkeeper's time by having him fill in as a third choice GK then yes, having a designated third choice keeper is worthwhile. Especially given that one of the key things about third choice goalkeepers is that they're very cheap.

 

[SAFMUTD]

the idea of having a third choice keeper like Grant is so that Periera and Henderson can play competitive matches.

What good would it be if Henderson had been out 3rd choice keeper for the past 2 years, he would never make it as a pro keeper due to lack of action.

I understand Grant is also part coach, he’s at the end of his career, and is in a role that helps the other keepers develop.

I understand your point that he doesn’t play, but he’s an insurance policy that allows promising keepers to go and develop and so he’s needed.

I dont think the fact that Henderson and Pereira went on loan had anything to do with having Grant, I think it was mostly because they’re old enough and had offers where they’ll, at least in theory, get game time.

For example we have Kovac, Bishop and Woolston in the U23s, having Grant hasnt changed their position at all.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

I think experienced 3rd choice keepers are essential but they should be freshened up regularly, every new keeper would give the group a new push/motivation (almost like having a new coach) and a fresh perspective on a rolling 2/3 year basis.

I really like Lee Grant's personality but something isn't right about having a player that hasn't played a league game in 3 years. Wouldn't mind us going in for Joe Hart or another keeper in their Mid-30s and then switch after 2 years, and continue to do that. Keeps the keepers and those training with them on edge.

 

[limerickcitykid]

youre not required to have two keepers on the bench, in most cases you dont. So you dont need the third keeper training or traveling with the squad unless one of the two goalkeepers is injured.

The youngster wouldnt be a third goal keeper per se, but would be available if needed, while its highly unlikely.

And when your keeper gets hurt in the warm up and you now have no keeper on the bench? You do need the third keeper travelling, hence why every club travels with their third keeper. So please tell me how you apparently know more than all of the biggest football clubs in the world?

If you’re third keeper you’re in the first team so yes you need to train with the first team. Keeper training often requires more than two players as well.

He wouldn’t be available when needed because as I said, he can’t be in two places at one time.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

They're an insurance policy at best. I'd rather have someone experienced to call on if necessary. It's no use having one of the kids travel to every game with the squad and never play. They need to be playing games and developing at that age. A 36 year old Grant isn't desperate for minutes.

It's become common in the PL. It has more pros than cons IMO

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I dont think the fact that Henderson and Pereira went on loan had anything to do with having Grant, I think it was mostly because they’re old enough and had offers where they’ll, at least in theory, get game time.

For example we have Kovac, Bishop and Woolston in the U23s, having Grant hasnt changed their position at all.

Dean Henderson went on loan when he was 19.

3rd choice keeper is a first team keeper anyway. You don't just make someone who just got promoted from U18 into 3rd choice first team keeper. Using young keeper as emergency if we can't find someone which what Jose did on Joel. But if PL experienced Grant was available, we took the opportunity to sign him for the role, he has no issue with the role, and we still have him right now so why bother to even trying to get rid of him when we can put the young ones on loan to get experiences & well developed like Dean Henderson.

 

[SAFMUTD]

And when your keeper gets hurt in the warm up and you now have no keeper on the bench? You do need the third keeper travelling, hence why every club travels with their third keeper. So please tell me how you apparently know more than all of the biggest football clubs in the world?

If you’re third keeper you’re in the first team so yes you need to train with the first team. Keeper training often requires more than two players as well.

He wouldn’t be available when needed because as I said, he can’t be in two places at one time.

You got a good point, but Im not sure it works that way. How did we manage before Grant was here if thats the case? How all the teams that dont have third keepers manage?

 

[SAFMUTD]

Dean Henderson went on loan when he was 19.

3rd choice keeper is a first team keeper anyway. You don't just make someone who just got promoted from U18 into 3rd choice first team keeper. Using young keeper as emergency if we can't find someone which what Jose did on Joel. But if PL experienced Grant was available, we took the opportunity to sign him for the role, and we still have him right now so why bother to even trying to get rid of him.

19 seems a good age to go on loan, I dont know what point are you trying to make highlighting that?

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

19 seems a good age to go on loan, I dont know what point are you trying to make highlighting that?

So why can't Kovac going on loan then instead of being stuck in U23? He's going to be 20 this year.

Instead, we can promote the U18 keeper to fill the U23 and let the kid to be slowly developed rather than rushing him from U18 to 3rd choice keeper. Another benefit from having Grant.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

You got a good point, but Im not sure it works that way. How did we manage before Grant was here if thats the case? How all the teams that dont have third keepers manage?

You think it's easy to find a 3rd choice keeper who has PL experiences? When you are becoming 3rd choice means your games is limited. Team has no choice but to cooperate with it if they can't get someone like Grant and take the risk. There was a reason why Jose signed Grant in the first place.

 

[limerickcitykid]

You got a good point, but Im not sure it works that way. How did we manage before Grant was here if thats the case? How all the teams that dont have third keepers manage?

We managed by wasting Joel’s time and turned him from getting good reviews in Portugal and linked with the top Portuguese to sitting in the stands and now unable to get a game in Belgium and getting hugely criticized in Scotland. Oh and when he got injured we managed by recalling Dean Henderson and massively pissing him off by forcing him to sit in the stands, resulting in him threatening to leave on a permanent. Almost like we saw all that and realized, hey this doesn’t work. Before that we had Lindegaard with Valdés or Ben Amos.
Every club has a third keeper.

 

[SAFMUTD]

So why can't Kovac going on loan then instead of being stuck in U23? He's going to be 20 this year.

Instead, we can promote the U18 keeper to fill the U23 and let the kid to be slowly developed rather than rushing him from U18 to 3rd choice keeper. Another benefit from having Grant.

Probably because he doesnt have good enough offers?

its not because he’s stucked because lack of bodies in the U23, we have Bishop and Woolstok for that matter, and Pereira who recently returned from his loan.

 

[SAFMUTD]

You think it's easy to find a 3rd choice keeper who has PL experiences? When you are becoming 3rd choice means your games is limited. Team has no choice but to cooperate with it if they can't get someone like Grant and take the risk. There was a reason why Jose signed Grant in the first place.

He’s third choice for a reason, having PL experience or not the fact that a player accepts the third choice rol just proves he’s not even close to be on a good enough level.

 

[SAFMUTD]

We managed by wasting Joel’s time and turned him from getting good reviews in Portugal and linked with the top Portuguese to sitting in the stands and now unable to get a game in Belgium and getting hugely criticized in Scotland. Oh and when he got injured we managed by recalling Dean Henderson and massively pissing him off by forcing him to sit in the stands, resulting in him threatening to leave on a permanent. Almost like we saw all that and realized, hey this doesn’t work. Before that we had Lindegaard with Valdés or Ben Amos.
Every club has a third keeper.

Do you seriously believe we fecked up Pereira’s career because of that? do you think he failed to get game time in the lower leagues because he was forced to be third keeper for a season? Come on mate lets be real.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Probably because he doesnt have good enough offers?

its not because he’s stucked because lack of bodies in the U23, we have Bishop and Woolstok for that matter, and Pereira who recently returned from his loan.

It's so difficult to send the message to you. I don't feel like to repeat this again like multiple times in different thread talking the same thing.

I was referring to your idea of keeping young keeper in U23 as emergency of 3rd choice first team when we can put the player on offer for loan move next season. If the guy can't even get a loan offer from even National League or League Two, he's simply not ready for 3rd choice first team.

 

[SAFMUTD]

It's so difficult to send the message to you. I don't feel like to repeat this again like multiple times in different thread talking the same thing.

I was referring to your idea of keeping young keeper in U23 as emergency of 3rd choice first team when we can put the player on offer for loan move next season. If the guy can't even get a loan offer from even National League or League Two, he's simply not ready for 3rd choice first team.

We are just going on circles mate, lets just agree to disagree.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Do you seriously believe we fecked up Pereira’s career because of that? do you think he failed to get game time in the lower leagues because he was forced to be third keeper for a season? Come on mate lets be real.

You just don't know, the only thing we know is that goalkeeper is benefit for having competitive matches. So contrast when you see how Dean was developed. The only thing that you shouldn't deny is that Joel and other young goalkeepers will be benefit of getting competitive matches. Joel is right now a regular keeper in Scottish Premiership after couple of loan moves he was getting.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

We are just going on circles mate, lets just agree to disagree.

I think you are saying that to everyone in here. You can also read this whole thread that you created in the first place. If voice of many people can't be any clearer for you then nothing else.

 

[SAFMUTD]

You just don't know, the only thing we know is that goalkeeper is benefit for having competitive matches. So contrast when you see how Dean was developed. The only thing that you shouldn't deny is that Joel and other young goalkeepers will be benefit of getting competitive matches. Joel is right now a regular keeper in Scottish Premiership after couple of loan moves he was getting.

I think that has more to do with the players quality, Pereira has actually been harshly criticized for his bad performances at hearts.

 

[SAFMUTD]

I think you are saying that to everyone in here. You can also read this whole thread that you created in the first place. If voice of many people can't be any clearer for you then nothing else.

Hahaha come on mate thats what the forum is about, to discuss stuff. You seem a little angry calm down mate not everyone in here is going to agree with you or with me, read some other comments you may be surprised not everyone thinks exactly like you. Any way not going to respond to you anymore this discussion seems to be getting personal to you, at the end of the day it’s just a matter of opinion.

 

[limerickcitykid]

Do you seriously believe we fecked up Pereira’s career because of that? do you think he failed to get game time in the lower leagues because he was forced to be third keeper for a season? Come on mate lets be real.

Do I think player development stalls when they go an entire year playing 2 underage matches. Or 1.5 years playing 6 underage matches. Yes, I do.

Come on mate, lets be real. Players who don’t play football for an entire year are obviously going to regress.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Do I think player development stalls when they go an entire year playing 2 underage matches. Or 1.5 years playing 6 underage matches. Yes, I do.

Come on mate, lets be real. Players who don’t play football for an entire year are obviously going to regress.

Completely agree, if they dont play they regress but if Pereira cant even put on good performances on portugal and scotland its obvious he wont make it here, and I dont think its because he was on the stands for a year. The sad truth is most youngsters wont make it, every year a new generation arrises and most of them will not even achieve a professional career.

 

[limerickcitykid]

Completely agree, if they dont play they regress but if Pereira cant even put on good performances on portugal and scotland its obvious he wont make it here, and I dont think its because he was on the stands for a year. The sad truth is most youngsters wont make it, every year a new generation arrises and most of them will not even achieve a professional career.

He did put in good performances in Portugal though. He was widely praised and linked to moves to the big 3 there. He then spent two years sitting in the stands not playing football and now he’s become complete shit. So how exactly did not playing any football enhance his development? It didn’t. So it didn’t benefit him and it didn’t benefit us. So what part of that are you arguing we should continue to do? What part of all this are you concluding that you know more than successful football clubs?

Who said anything about making it? Making it at United is completely irrelevant. We’re talking about whether young keepers should be wasting their time sitting in the stands and never playing any football. The answer is clearly no, and thankfully the experts at the club agree.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Lee Grant is also the PFA Representative for the club so he is clearly doing a greater shift of late than Sergio Romero.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

This is such a poor thread.

I and many others have come back and detailed the reason why we need an experienced 3rd choice keeper.

I have to ask also, why does the OP care so much. So much effort. It’s out 3rd choice goalkeeper! How much does it matter. I can only assume Grant ran over his foot at the supermarket, or took the last packet of loo roll as there seems to be an unnecessary dislike for the guy.

 

[Sky1981]

Lee Grant is probably better than Matej Kovar, so probably a better choice for third keeper.

It’s not like either will get game time unless it’s an emergency.

Loaning young players isn’t some panacea for producing worldies. Look at our experiences with loaning.

This is an interesting statement.

Was it our loaning system sucks? Or was it our youngster that's actually sucks.

You can loan bebe to Barcelona and he still won't fare much better. The same with Ronaldo, you can loan him to Fulham and he'll still ended up as worldies. Maybe we haven't had good talents to loan them in the first place

 

[Acole9]

I don't have a problem with an experienced goalkeeper sitting on the sidelines and called upon when needed. A lot of clubs have "Training ground goalkeepers" nowadays and I suppose Grant could be considered one.

As for Joel Pereira, he's not good enough.