F1 2021 Season

sewey89

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Need to see the lap by lap but he was 14 seconds clear of Perez and wasn’t losing time when he came in.
I thought the gap was down to about 10s by the time he came in. Chances are Perez would’ve closed in on him. But it’s not a given. Lewis would’ve got at least 4th had he not pitted. Bad call
 

Dan_F

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They must have had a reason to pit him. Cant imagine they just thought feck it, lets do it for banter.
I remember just before he pitted the commentators did say there was a black cloud coming over the start / finish line. Maybe that swayed them
They don’t just look out the window, they have radars to predict the rain and there was no suggestion that was in their thinking.

Others seem to think not, but I think he’d have been overtaken by Perez regardless at the pace he was going before the pit, let alone after another 10 laps of deg. I thought he was 11 seconds ahead and losing a second a lap. I genuinely don’t think they thought the graining period would hurt him like it did.

I guess the next is race is going to be a huge indication of whether Mercedes have jumped forward in pace. If not, you’ve got to question taking the penalty this week and not on one of the RB favoured tracks.
 

senorgregster

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Listening to Toto sounds like he would have ended behind Gasly if he didn't pit. If that's the case, Hamilton making the original call to stay out was the only error.
 

FreakyJim

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I thought the gap was down to about 10s by the time he came in. Chances are Perez would’ve closed in on him. But it’s not a given. Lewis would’ve got at least 4th had he not pitted. Bad call
Maybe his tyres would've completely gone. Enormous risk of not finishing vs taking 10+ points.
 

sewey89

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Maybe his tyres would've completely gone. Enormous risk of not finishing vs taking 10+ points.
That’s true. No way of really knowing what would’ve happened but Lewis gave the impression that he felt ok and didn’t want to come in
 

Adam-Utd

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should have pitted him earlier, or not bothered at all.

Ocon managed to finish on the same set of tyres, I think Ham would have been fine also.

Clearly Merc played the over cautious hand and better to be safer than sorry. Yet again hindsight is a wonderful thing.

It seems Mercedes completely ignored the graining phase which seemed odd, everybody who pitted suffered the same thing.
 

Buster15

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Listening to Toto sounds like he would have ended behind Gasly if he didn't pit. If that's the case, Hamilton making the original call to stay out was the only error.
An error which the team didn't contest that much.
Anyway. It is over now and he lives to fight another day/race.
 

massi83

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should have pitted him earlier, or not bothered at all.

Ocon managed to finish on the same set of tyres, I think Ham would have been fine also.

Clearly Merc played the over cautious hand and better to be safer than sorry. Yet again hindsight is a wonderful thing.

It seems Mercedes completely ignored the graining phase which seemed odd, everybody who pitted suffered the same thing.
Ocon lost 25s to Stroll and 15s to Giovanazzi in 9 laps. So i seriously doubt it.
 

dinostar77

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We'll never know but I think it was the wrong call by Mercedes. Then again he might have got a puncture and a DNF.

It's all going Max's way, lewis needs Max's luck.to change.
 

dinostar77

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Get in there Max! With 3 races which are favorable to Red Bull to go he should seal the championship this season. Just hope for no tricks from Hamilton or Merc to try run Max out of one of the races.
Are we allowing children on this forum?
 

sun_tzu

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We'll never know but I think it was the wrong call by Mercedes. Then again he might have got a puncture and a DNF.

It's all going Max's way, lewis needs Max's luck.to change.
I think with 6 points (and lets be honest the majority of that came from the spa farce) anything is still possible

With the upgraded pu I certainly think Hamilton is going to be capable of taking the fight to max

It does seem with ocon making through on one set that it must have been an option for Lewis but one the team felt sub optimal
 
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massi83

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We'll never know but I think it was the wrong call by Mercedes. Then again he might have got a puncture and a DNF.

It's all going Max's way, lewis needs Max's luck.to change.
It wasn't luck that he wasted so much time behind Tsunoda and that he couldn't get past Perez. Merc had by far the fastest car, as evidenced by easy victory from Bottas. Lewis can blame himself.
 

Peyroteo

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Hamilton would have finished 5th anyway if he hadnt pitted when he did and there was greater risk for tire failure. The mistake was to not pit him earlier, it wasn't to pit him later on. Ocon was losing 7 seconds per lap by the end on those worn out tires
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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should have pitted him earlier, or not bothered at all.

Ocon managed to finish on the same set of tyres, I think Ham would have been fine also.

Clearly Merc played the over cautious hand and better to be safer than sorry. Yet again hindsight is a wonderful thing.

It seems Mercedes completely ignored the graining phase which seemed odd, everybody who pitted suffered the same thing.
Ocon fell off an absolute cliff at the end and hadn't put nearly as much stress on his tyres as Lewis had done via overtaking. The mistake was Lewis overruling his team on the earlier call to pit. If he'd stayed on the same tyres he's probably still P5 but the risk of a puncture and DNF is astronomically higher. Can't blame the team for living to fight another day.
 

The Hilton

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To be fair the last couple of races have gone perfectly for Max - the rain appears in Sochi saving him from P7/P8 and getting him P2, and it hangs around enough to stop Hamilton's gambit to wait for the track to dry out today. You can be lucky and good.
 

stu_1992

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I thought that was a pretty decent race I enjoyed it. Really good & quiet drive by Bottas. Controlled things nicely all race. Almost looking a new man since confirmation of his last Mercedes season. Sainz very impressive too with the overtakes and to finish where he did considering his starting position in a difficult race.

On the Hamilton (and LeClerc) debate about whether they should have stayed out or come in. I've yet to see anything to convince me that both should have stayed out and took their chances. Unless there were some severe safety concerns with the tyres, it was worth a go as coming on guaranteed a worse result than staying out. I actually felt bad for Hamilton which is very rare!

My biggest disappointment was seeing Alonso spinning off so early in the race. Vettel and his team choosing to slicks as well was a colossal failure.
 

Adam-Utd

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Ocon lost 25s to Stroll and 15s to Giovanazzi in 9 laps. So i seriously doubt it.
Hard to judge, I don't think Ham was losing a significant amount of time though at that point?

We've seen before that Hamilton is able to keep his tyres together better than anybody. The only risk was the tyres popping but they didn't seem that bad at the end of the race when they showed them either.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Hard to judge, I don't think Ham was losing a significant amount of time though at that point?

We've seen before that Hamilton is able to keep his tyres together better than anybody. The only risk was the tyres popping but they didn't seem that bad at the end of the race when they showed them either.
He lost 1.5 seconds to both Perez and Leclerc on lap 50, with a ~10 second advantage. With 8 laps to go, you'd have to say the latter two would be favoured to get past him, especially as tyre degradation got worse.

Hamilton is of course unbelievable at looking out for his tyres but much of that advantage will have been negated by his overtaking early on. And with all due respect I think you're overlooking the exponential rate of tyre decline - here's what Ocon's tyres looked like at the end of the race, and he also said that he thought with one more lap he'd have had a puncture:
 

redshaw

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Thought Merc should've pitted around the same time as Max, he then would be on settled inters to repass a couple and then take Perez and Leclerc near the end. After Perez pitted I would've responded to any closing of the pit window to him, no point losing time, clearly the track wasn't drying enough but you need to pit when it's still fairly wet, especially after all the overtaking he'd done before. Both Merc and Lewis dragged it out longer than needed a couple of times. Lewis had the lap time to make this a lot closer, 11th to 5th in the wet is not that good.
 

senorgregster

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He lost 1.5 seconds to both Perez and Leclerc on lap 50, with a ~10 second advantage. With 8 laps to go, you'd have to say the latter two would be favoured to get past him, especially as tyre degradation got worse.

Hamilton is of course unbelievable at looking out for his tyres but much of that advantage will have been negated by his overtaking early on. And with all due respect I think you're overlooking the exponential rate of tyre decline - here's what Ocon's tyres looked like at the end of the race, and he also said that he thought with one more lap he'd have had a puncture:
That looks awfully close to a blow out (from my naive understanding of the tyre structure). Anyone know what the exposed surface is?
 

Doracle

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Thought Merc should've pitted around the same time as Max, he then would be on settled inters to repass a couple and then take Perez and Leclerc near the end. After Perez pitted I would've responded to any closing of the pit window to him, no point losing time, clearly the track wasn't drying enough but you need to pit when it's still fairly wet, especially after all the overtaking he'd done before. Both Merc and Lewis dragged it out longer than needed a couple of times. Lewis had the lap time to make this a lot closer, 11th to 5th in the wet is not that good.
With hindsight, this was definitely the optimum strategy. It feels they should have been very clear with Lewis earlier that the tyres would definitely not last the whole race. If that was their view, then they were just gambling on slicks becoming an option.

As it was, the various lap times seem to suggest to me that Hamilton had a reasonable chance to at least hold on to 4th if he’d stayed out. The only driver who did last the whole race was running about 1.36 at the time Hamilton pitted and did a 1.37 last lap, suggesting there wasn’t a drop off the cliff moment with the tyres.

A tough decision and it does feel as though communication with Hamilton and his team needs to improve. Had they said to Hamilton, we don’t think we can risk going to the end on this tyre, I don’t think his reaction would have been the same and he’d have probably wanted to pit earlier.
 

Adam-Utd

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He lost 1.5 seconds to both Perez and Leclerc on lap 50, with a ~10 second advantage. With 8 laps to go, you'd have to say the latter two would be favoured to get past him, especially as tyre degradation got worse.

Hamilton is of course unbelievable at looking out for his tyres but much of that advantage will have been negated by his overtaking early on. And with all due respect I think you're overlooking the exponential rate of tyre decline - here's what Ocon's tyres looked like at the end of the race, and he also said that he thought with one more lap he'd have had a puncture:
yep ocon was obviously very close there, but that’s an alpine with way less downforce.

Anyway it’s all speculation, Merc cut their losses and played it safe - he might have scored a few extra points or lost it all.
That looks awfully close to a blow out (from my naive understanding of the tyre structure). Anyone know what the exposed surface is?
that circle is the outer tread completely worn away. the inner part is the carcass which is usually still made of rubber but a harder structure. that wouldn’t be giving any grip.

if he wore through that point then it would blow out for sure, I think Ocon said 1 more lap and it would have blown.
 

Doracle

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Did Merc have to take the engine penalty here as well? Otherwise was it an error to do so?

It seemed fairly clear throughout that they had a significant advantage here. Without the penalty, it probably ends with Hamilton 1st and Verstappen 3rd, so a 20 point difference to what actually happened. If they instead took it at a course where Max had the edge, and let’s say Lewis came 7th, then that’s only a 12 point loss (-7 without the penalty, -19 with it).
 

The Hilton

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Also, discussion has been a lot better the past two races. I'm enjoying the thread again. :)
It has improved massively, although there have still been plenty of childish posts.

Still, it seems that as it's become more clear that the title is going to Max, there's less stress from his fans - even Christian Horner has been sensible for a couple of weeks!
 

The Hilton

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Did Merc have to take the engine penalty here as well? Otherwise was it an error to do so?

It seemed fairly clear throughout that they had a significant advantage here. Without the penalty, it probably ends with Hamilton 1st and Verstappen 3rd, so a 20 point difference to what actually happened. If they instead took it at a course where Max had the edge, and let’s say Lewis came 7th, then that’s only a 12 point loss (-7 without the penalty, -19 with it).
Yeah there were a few posts on here before the race about how it seemed like a poor decision, hard to understand the Mercedes thinking behind taking the penalty this week.
 

F-Red

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Yeah there were a few posts on here before the race about how it seemed like a poor decision, hard to understand the Mercedes thinking behind taking the penalty this week.
Turkey is/was a better overtaking track to regain positions. Compared to other circuits on the calendar they felt this would give them the easiest opportunity to make up ground.
 

Infordin

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It has improved massively, although there have still been plenty of childish posts.

Still, it seems that as it's become more clear that the title is going to Max, there's less stress from his fans - even Christian Horner has been sensible for a couple of weeks!
Really? Mercedes are looking bigger favourites than ever before right now. They were absolutely dominant on pace in Turkey and Honda have no answer for Mercedes’ recent boost in power.

Mercedes have been faster everywhere since Silverstone (with the exception of Zandvoort)
 

Infordin

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It's all going Max's way, lewis needs Max's luck.to change.
Max luck would see Lewis’ tyre blow out when comfortably leading and looking set for victory. Lewis has been the lucky one this season by some margin. The fact that Max is still leading the championship is frankly astounding.
 

ArjenIsM3

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Really? Mercedes are looking bigger favourites than ever before right now. They were absolutely dominant on pace in Turkey and Honda have no answer for Mercedes’ recent boost in power.

Mercedes have been faster everywhere since Silverstone (with the exception of Zandvoort)
Max luck would see Lewis’ tyre blow out when comfortably leading and looking set for victory. Lewis has been the lucky one this season by some margin. The fact that Max is still leading the championship is frankly astounding.
Agreed. The difference in pace between the Mercs and Red Bull was huge in Turkey. It's a bit odd to expect Red Bull / Max to cruise to victory in my opinion. It's small margins at this point, though you're right Lewis is lucky that's even the case. If Max hadn't been so unlucky the championship would have been all but decided at this point so it's a bit weird that people on here are saying Lewis needs Max's luck to change. If anything what Lewis needs is for Mercedes to get their act together and judging by the pace of both Mercedes cars recently they have. It will be an interesting and hopefully an entertaining end to the season.
 

Jerch

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We'll never know but I think it was the wrong call by Mercedes. Then again he might have got a puncture and a DNF.

It's all going Max's way, lewis needs Max's luck.to change.
I agree that Hamilton needs Max's luck in the next weeks. 1 or 2 DNF from chrashes for Hamilton wouldn't be bad for Max and Red Bull.
 

Abizzz

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I see we're back to top notch posts now :drool: .


If Max wins it all I hope he does so by beating Lewis on the track in tight races by being the better driver in the better car. If Lewis wins it I hope it's for the same reason. I enjoyed Sunday partially because everyone performed in difficult conditions (Merc and Ferrari strategists aside) and a faultless performance was rewarded with a win. I hope to see more of that.