F1 2021 Season

[BrilliantOrange]

Sometimes if people are telling you that it would not have been possible to avoid it, it’s best to take some note instead of keeping on saying someone of his ability could have avoided it. You’re entitled to your view, but a response to someone disagreeing with you isn’t to just keep saying what your view is. Put it this way, if Hamilton could have avoided it, why would he NOT have?

You’re also grouping two separate issues. If you watch the replay closely, even look at the telemetry, Lewis slowed down when he saw Max going slow. That was because he didn’t know why and didn’t realise he was being let past - if he did he just would have blasted past. You’ll see that he and Max were going at a similar speed I.e he had already slowed down enough to avoid the contact if Max had continued at his current speed. The second issue is that after that phase, Max slammed the brake. That was not expected and the gap was so small that it was not possible to react. It’s not like Lewis saw him going slow and just drove into the back of him. This has nothing to do with skill, this issue stems from someone doing something they simply shouldn’t be doing and doing what no one would expect them to - partly due to poor steward communication (Hamilton not knowing what was happening) which created the dumb situation in the first place, partly due to Max slamming the brakes. The former needs to be addressed because it’s ultimately what caused this. But even despite that, there was no reason for Max to brake.

Its worth noting being an F1 driver places a lot of faith in everyone around you. When the lights go green they all floor it, they trust the car in front it going to go as well. When you're heading into a hard braking zone you trust people will brake at the right point and turn in giving room etc. Heading down a straight at 200mph with a car no more than a few metres in front you have faith the car in front is going to act consistently. When Lewis came up behind Max slowing down, half way in the middle of the track and changing direction he had no idea what was going on. Its easy to say "oh, just pass him", but for all Lewis knows Max can see something up ahead. Maybe Max has a problem that is making his car hard to control. Whilst Lewis is figuring out what's going on, Max slams on the brakes, which is about the most dangerous thing you can do because Lewis could easily have had a Red Bull car up and over his halo.

This is why people have such a problem with it, its just about the most dangerous thing you can do on the track and Max only got a 10s penalty for it.

Im not suggesting in the slightest Hamilton did so intentionally or anything..

One of the major skills of F1 drivers, especially the top ones like Max and Hamilton, is their insane ability to react to things happening around them in the fraction of a second, on the highest speed, with the utmost accuracy.. This isnt anything really different from that right? I feel they are constantly reacting to moved the other drivers are making.. So from that stance I was just surprised to see that this one was apparently such a different situation for Lewis than other situations in any race where they are adjusting their pace/direction based on overtakes/attacks/defences from other drivers..

And I fully agree there was no reason for Max to hit the brakes even further.. I mentioned mulitple times I think Max deserved the punishment and I dont blame Lewist for anything.. I was just surprised by his inability in this sence to avoid hitting Max..

Im surprised by footballers 20 times per game because of their inability to pass a ball 10 meters or to get a corner past the first post... It just doesnt happen to me very often Im surprised by 'inability' of F1 drivers, especially not the top ones.. Im usually just 100% amazed by everything they do all the time.. And this surprised me, given what Iver seen Lewis pull of so very often before..

This. This is the real you.

I'm on no side here, I've hated Hamilton way back even before button did. The worst thing about you Max fans on here is not the complete lack of banter skills, no, it's the died in the wool attitude. It's one thing to have national pride, it's another to constantly defend someone who is actually dangerous because they get a little bit upset and act out like a child.

Stop hiding and you all tell us what you really think.

Seriously, where the feck do you get from that Im a Max fan? Like seriously? Is it just because Im Dutch? Because I dont see how you can get from my posts here today that Im a Max fan?

 

[blythy]

The worst thing about you Max fans on here is not the complete lack of banter skills, no, it's the died in the wool attitude. It's one thing to have national pride, it's another to constantly defend someone who is actually dangerous because they get a little bit upset and act out like a child.

In my limited experience many of Max's (online) fans come across as the F1 equivalent of United's social media fanbase; uncompromising in their views while some are border-line abusive of anyone who opposes them. On social media I frequently see him labelled as "GOAT" FFS.

You only have to see the official 'Driver of the Day' results each race for evidence of their unquestioning support.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Well they said 35 laps on the mediums I think. I think he had 37 when he put them on. So they must have been banking on slow laps or another red flag. They even got a lot of slow laps and you could still see it wasn’t the right choice.

with all the VSC laps they thought he should make it easily, but I guess with hamilton pushing him hard constantly they just burnt out asap

 

[Fully Fledged]

One of the major skills of F1 drivers, especially the top ones like Max and Hamilton, is their insane ability to react to things happening around them in the fraction of a second, on the highest speed, with the utmost accuracy.. This isnt anything really different from that right? I feel they are constantly reacting to moved the other drivers are making.. So from that stance I was just surprised to see that this one was apparently such a different situation for Lewis than other situations in any race where they are adjusting their pace/direction based on overtakes/attacks/defences from other drivers..

There were at least 3 rear end shunts at the track yesterday. One in the F2 race, one that caused the second red flag and Hamilton into the back of Verstappen. A car going slow directly in front of you is probably the hardest incident to avoid. It is why it has been said that this track with so many blind highspeed corners is so dangerous. When a car brakes at a force of 2.5 G from as close as Hamilton was the Verstappen it is impossible to avoid a collision.

 

[Jerch]

Even if Max is told by the race director to give him the place back why should Lewis be willing to make the overtake right before the DRS line so that he will lose the place immediately being given it back.

Pretty sure I read somewhere that if Lewis would be informed of the situation he would have to pass him cuz otherwise he is negatively impacting Max race who has to slow down to let Lewis pass.

But yeah I understand why he wouldn't passed him. And because of that it is stupid to solely blame the incident on Max cuz both played the same game, to be behind on DRS zone.

TBF whole thing was unnecessary feck up because FIA didn't informed both drivers at the same time.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Pretty sure I read somewhere that if Lewis would be informed of the situation he would have to pass him cuz otherwise he is negatively impacting Max race who has to slow down to let Lewis pass.

But yeah I understand why he wouldn't passed him. And because of that it is stupid to solely blame the incident on Max cuz both played the same game, to be behind on DRS zone.

TBF whole thing was unnecessary feck up because FIA didn't informed both drivers at the same time.

No it's not. If he hadn't braked hard in front of Lewis he wouldn't have been blamed for anything. It's not the games that was the problem it was the dangerous driving that was the problem.

 

[Jerch]

No it's not. If he hadn't braked hard in front of Lewis he wouldn't have been blamed for anything. It's not the games that was the problem it was the dangerous driving that was the problem.

If Lewis would go pass him instead of shifting down twice in the straight line and breaking, Lewis wouldn't hit him from behind, damaging Max's car and rear tires. Dangerous driving from Hamilton endangering himself, Max and other drivers who were approaching from behind.

 

[RoadTrip]

Im not suggesting in the slightest Hamilton did so intentionally or anything..

One of the major skills of F1 drivers, especially the top ones like Max and Hamilton, is their insane ability to react to things happening around them in the fraction of a second, on the highest speed, with the utmost accuracy.. This isnt anything really different from that right? I feel they are constantly reacting to moved the other drivers are making.. So from that stance I was just surprised to see that this one was apparently such a different situation for Lewis than other situations in any race where they are adjusting their pace/direction based on overtakes/attacks/defences from other drivers..

And I fully agree there was no reason for Max to hit the brakes even further.. I mentioned mulitple times I think Max deserved the punishment and I dont blame Lewist for anything.. I was just surprised by his inability in this sence to avoid hitting Max..

Im surprised by footballers 20 times per game because of their inability to pass a ball 10 meters or to get a corner past the first post... It just doesnt happen to me very often Im surprised by 'inability' of F1 drivers, especially not the top ones.. Im usually just 100% amazed by everything they do all the time.. And this surprised me, given what Iver seen Lewis pull of so very often before..



Seriously, where the feck do you get from that Im a Max fan? Like seriously? Is it just because Im Dutch? Because I dont see how you can get from my posts here today that Im a Max fan?

Sorry but I feel like you’re not listening. I get your logic - these guys are top of their field so you’re surprised he couldn’t react faster. But what I and people are telling you that there is only so much physically possible for a human being. If you don’t understand or appreciate that then, fair enough I guess.

 

[RepardReece]

If Lewis would go pass him instead of shifting down twice in the straight line and breaking, Lewis wouldn't hit him from behind, damaging Max's car and rear tires. Dangerous driving from Hamilton endangering himself, Max and other drivers who were approaching from behind.

such a bias POV, even after the proof I sent that Max did brake test Hamilton.

 

[RoadTrip]

Pretty sure I read somewhere that if Lewis would be informed of the situation he would have to pass him cuz otherwise he is negatively impacting Max race who has to slow down to let Lewis pass.

But yeah I understand why he wouldn't passed him. And because of that it is stupid to solely blame the incident on Max cuz both played the same game, to be behind on DRS zone.

TBF whole thing was unnecessary feck up because FIA didn't informed both drivers at the same time.

I honestly think of Hamilton knew he was allowed past, he wouldn’t have worried about DRS and would have simply driven straight past him. But that’s just my opinion.

 

[The Cat]

If Lewis would go pass him instead of shifting down twice in the straight line and breaking, Lewis wouldn't hit him from behind, damaging Max's car and rear tires. Dangerous driving from Hamilton endangering himself, Max and other drivers who were approaching from behind.

Do you honestly think Hamilton wanted to give the championship up by driving into him? I can't understand this point of view sorry.

 

[RoadTrip]

If Lewis would go pass him instead of shifting down twice in the straight line and breaking, Lewis wouldn't hit him from behind, damaging Max's car and rear tires. Dangerous driving from Hamilton endangering himself, Max and other drivers who were approaching from behind.

seriously? This place never ceases to amaze me at times.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

If Lewis would go pass him instead of shifting down twice in the straight line and breaking, Lewis wouldn't hit him from behind, damaging Max's car and rear tires. Dangerous driving from Hamilton endangering himself, Max and other drivers who were approaching from behind.

This this just not right, even after all the evidence that Max did in fact brake test Lewis, you still think it was down to Lewis

 

[VorZakone]

So...can we have a separate thread on Hamilton vs Schumacher?

 

[BrilliantOrange]

Sorry but I feel like you’re not listening. I get your logic - these guys are top of their field so you’re surprised he couldn’t react faster. But what I and people are telling you that there is only so much physically possible for a human being. If you don’t understand or appreciate that then, fair enough I guess.

Oh but Im there.. I fully follow and I understand, maybe I could have just emphasized sooner, but I had the feeling I was constantly defending myself against people stating I was only surprised/biased as Im a typical Max fanboy

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Well.. He is not getting away with it right?

He was punished for it every time during the race, and now also got the 10seconds penalty post-race..

Which has zero impact on the result or the championship. Or the fact he will probably try to take Hamilton out yet again if he gets a chance next race.

 

[Jerch]

such a bias POV, even after the proof I sent that Max did brake test Hamilton.

Do you honestly think Hamilton wanted to give the championship up by driving into him? I can't understand this point of view sorry.

It's just sarcastic respond to argument told many times.

The fact is both were doing stupid things to gain DRS advantage. TBF Lewis started the chain of stupid events because he didn't go past. And it was clear that Max is letting him pass or it's something wrong with Max's car. He was 20-30 kmh slower in the corner infront of straight and was visibly slowing down for 250m before contact, definitely enough that Lewis would acknowledge that he can go by but he decided to downshift and break.
Then came the point where Max acknowledged that if he doesn't slow down dramatically Lewis will get through DRS zone behind and so he responded with braking even more.

So yeah both at fault for the incident and I agree with user who said the rules need to change that something similar doesn't happen again cuz it's dangerous. Imagine there would be cars close behind which wouldn't understand what is happening and terrible things could happen.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

So... Basically just like Lewis in Silverstone?

Ridiculous. Not even comparable events.

 

[BrilliantOrange]

Which has zero impact on the result or the championship. Or the fact he will probably try to take Hamilton out yet again if he gets a chance next race.

So what are you implying? They should deduct as many seconds until he drops 3rd? 10 seconds is a standard punishment in formula 1. If he still remains in 2nd place after that its also because he deserves so by realizing such a lead on sunday right? Or do you suggest they should go out of their way and punishment standards with the goal of him dropping on the table?

Moreover, he did get 5 seconds during the race, was asked to let Lewis pass and dropper two places after the red flag. All rightfully so, but there is hardly any denying he got punished, hence he is not getting away with reckless driving..

 

[BrilliantOrange]

Ridiculous. Not even comparable events.

Jees, dont people fecking read? I wasnt comparing the event.. Merely stating that there the punishment for Lewis was still a punishment even though it didnt have any impact, just as im this scenario with Max..

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Nah there's nothing naive about wanting rules applied the same to everyone. It's just the FIA is a joke, nothing more to it. They could well be deciding the WC by not taking action too.

They have no backbone and no clue. F1 died when Bernie sold it.

Worse than that the "half points race" was a farce and is the only reason they are level on points.

Add to that the lack of punishment in Brazil and the previous race (effectively).

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Christ. This is getting close to wumming now from the two of you. Again, I'm not condoning anything Max did, and I already brought up some of these things before Max even did anything wrong. This is not about Max and it certainly isn't some contest of who was more wrong because it's obvious who'd win that isn't it? I'm trying to discuss something other than the obvious incidents here but apparently that's not allowed by Mercedes' pitbulls on here.



Oh I get that Max is being talked about and I have no issue with that but that doesn't mean that you can't talk about anything else does it? As I said I'm not trying to start a contest of who's crossed the line the most here. Though saying Max got away with it is a bit of a stretch in my opinion when he received the standard penalties for everything he did (give position back, 5s penalty, 10s penalty, two points on his licence). Just because he didn't lose the position doesn't mean he got away with it.

A driver has just brake checked another driver on the straight, also tried to crash him off the track. Yet you think the talking point should be Bottas slowing down a bit?

Who is the WUM?

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

So what are you implying? They should deduct as many seconds until he drops 3rd? 10 seconds is a standard punishment in formula 1. If he still remains in 2nd place after that its also because he deserves so by realizing such a lead on sunday right? Or do you suggest they should go out of their way and punishment standards with the goal of him dropping on the table?

Moreover, he did get 5 seconds during the race, was asked to let Lewis pass and dropper two places after the red flag. All rightfully so, but there is hardly any denying he got punished, hence he is not getting away with reckless driving..

Maybe (for certain offences), they should deduct a place rather than X seconds. Then, it's clearly a punishment?

(In theory, deducting ten seconds for another driver in another similar situation could be say... a two, three place drop so setting it as 'one place' is (a) a definite punishment and (b) consistent)

 

[Cardozo]

Which has zero impact on the result or the championship. Or the fact he will probably try to take Hamilton out yet again if he gets a chance next race.

Ridiculous. Not even comparable events.

But it actually is in terms of punishment. Hamilton was deemed at fault, was given a very minor punishment that didn’t have any impact on his race despite Max getting a DNF and having to take an engine penalty in the next race because his car was destroyed.

People on here are acting like it was an act of murder to press the break. It was dangerous and there was a punishment, there were mitigating circumstances because max had no idea why Hamilton wasn’t passing and Hamilton had no idea why max was slowing.

 

[Rooney1987]

Midway through the season I mentioned this seasons thread isn't even close to the arguments and fighting during the 07/08 Spygate threads. It's getting pretty close now.

 

[hobbers]

Some people dont seem to realise that the stewards deemed Max's braking erratic, but that he did not intentionally cause a collision.

That's why 10 seconds, because that's the going rate for unintentionally causing a collision.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

What's dirty about that trick though? If it's within the rules, it's OK. They're gunning for a championship here, everything goes that won't get penalized. It's not even dangerous, it's basically tactics.

Should never be allowed if it is. Imagine everybody doing that during every restart. Nobody would want to be starting up front because you'd get fecked over by number two and possibly three. How's that fair?

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Wow.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

I'm loving it, I'm not even a Max fan (just not a Lewis fan).

One driver binned the other into the wall, scored a handful of points and put the other in the hospital.
The other driver ran the other wide, and ended up 2nd while the 'victim' driver won.

How long have you been watching F1?

Max also contributed to the Silverstone incident. Even the stewards ruled as much. By my estimation 60/40 so Hamilton was only slightly more to blame.

 

[BrilliantOrange]

Maybe (for certain offences), they should deduct a place rather than X seconds. Then, it's clearly a punishment?

(In theory, deducting ten seconds for another driver in another similar situation could be say... a two, three place drop so setting it as 'one place' is (a) a definite punishment and (b) consistent)

Its not necessarily more consistent right. A place punishment could be either a difference in 7 points or 0 points. It could be a punishment of a minute or a punishment of three seconds..

A punishment should fit the crime.. In football there is also no punishment that immediately makes sure you cant win the match anymore. You can conceed penalties, get red cards, fouls against you.. All things which can massively influence your chance to win the game.. Just like a 10 second punishment is in Formule 1. The fact that it hardly bothers Max and Lewis is also their accomplishment for awesome performances.. For basically everyone else 10 seconds is usually a massive influence..

 

[Jerch]

How long have you been watching F1?

Max also contributed to the Silverstone incident. Even the stewards ruled as much. By my estimation 60/40 so Hamilton was only slightly more to blame.

U funny man.

 

[Gringo]

Silverstone still being brought up, yawn.

 

[The Hilton]

So Im not making a case Max should not be punished. Max is not my boy, I dislike him as a person as much as anyone as.

Im just baffled someone with Lewis his skills wasnt able to prevent hitting him from behind in this situation..

Lewis' skills don't include mind reading, which is the only way he'd know that Max was planning to stand on his brakes.

 

[RoadTrip]

But it actually is in terms of punishment. Hamilton was deemed at fault, was given a very minor punishment that didn’t have any impact on his race despite Max getting a DNF and having to take an engine penalty in the next race because his car was destroyed.

People on here are acting like it was an act of murder to press the break. It was dangerous and there was a punishment, there were mitigating circumstances because max had no idea why Hamilton wasn’t passing and Hamilton had no idea why max was slowing.

I think where my view differs slightly (I’m ignoring Silverstone as it has nothing to do with anything) is that, that doesn’t justify the brake test. If he hasn’t slammed the brakes, then I would agree there is nothing to punish - pure confusion caused by the stewards communication cadence - which I said plenty of times at the time of the incident. But there is no valid reason to slam the brakes there. That’s irrespective of Hamilton going slow. You don’t just slam the brake. For me, that is the only punishable element and in my opinion is independent of the whole slowing down farce altogether. Regardless, he just shouldn’t have slammed the brakes. Surely you understand that?

 

[senorgregster]

Dropping final positions rather than adding time may be an appropriate method for future seasons. Similar to what they do with engine/gear box changes and starting positions.

Also, I think they should start deducting points from manufacturers table for unsafe release etc.

 

[Cardozo]

I think where my view differs slightly (I’m ignoring Silverstone as it has nothing to do with anything) is that, that doesn’t justify the brake test. If he hasn’t slammed the brakes, then I would agree there is nothing to punish - pure confusion caused by the stewards communication cadence - which I said plenty of times at the time of the incident. But there is no valid reason to slam the brakes there. That’s irrespective of Hamilton going slow. You don’t just slam the brake. For me, that is the only punishable element and in my opinion is independent of the whole slowing down farce altogether. Regardless, he just shouldn’t have slammed the brakes. Surely you understand that?

Yes, I completely understand. That's why he's been penalised because he caused the accident. However, the stewards have made the decision it's only 10 seconds taking everything into account.

Some people here are acting like he should have been disqualified / demoted to 3rd etc. but the stewards (experts) have considered it and came out with a reasonable decision which is supported by the rule book as a previous poster referred to. I'm only mentioning Silverstone because the idea that 'the punishment is lower due to the effect on the title race' or 'the punishment should impact on the standings' are red herrings.

 

[hobbers]

Some people here are acting like he should have been disqualified / demoted to 3rd etc. but the stewards (experts) have considered it and came out with a reasonable decision which is supported by the rule book as a previous poster referred to. I'm only mentioning Silverstone because the idea that 'the punishment is lower due to the effect on the title race' or 'the punishment should impact on the standings' are red herrings.

The punishment is consistent with causing a collision through dangerous/negligent driving. Same as Hamilton in Silverstone. It's too lenient a punishment in general but that's not really the point.

Of course there are some people, who don't seem to understand motor racing, who will say Max intended to brake check Lewis at 130mph and probably destroy his gearbox, risk his engine, and get disqualified, rather than the obvious - that he braked to force Lewis to pass him before the DRS line, assuming Lewis knew that he was being let past.

The stewards didn't believe Max intended to cause that collision and it's reflected in their ruling and in the time penalty.

 

[mitChley]

How long have you been watching F1?

Max also contributed to the Silverstone incident. Even the stewards ruled as much. By my estimation 60/40 so Hamilton was only slightly more to blame.

Since 1994 but thanks for caring, hope you're well xxx

 

[United Hobbit]

I hope we get a race to the last lap. I really hope we don't have something like one of the getting Covid ruin it.

Bottas will be vital in the last race, Mercedes need him 2nd, to act as a buffer for Lewis, making it harder for Max to get up alongside Lewis. He does seem to have found his form, I predict a Mercedes front row lockout. I hope the race doesn't turn into a procession.

Perez has let Red Bull down in tbe constructors, had he been more consistent they'd have probably won it. I'm surprised they've persisted with him, they've binned drivers for less.

It's been the best season in years, I just hope the last race is befitting of this. I really hope the regulation changes don't ruin this and even better, we have several teams and drivers who are competitive. Going to be very empty Sundays until it restarts unless United are on.

Verstappen is a tricky one, I want to like him as you can tell he's talented, he's just hard to like as Red Bull enable him so much and his antics. He's also one of the few drivers who have taken the fight to Mercedes even when they were dominant. He's definitely been enabled all his life, due to Daddy's connections he's been very much handed everything on a plate, although of course he still needs the talent see Stroll and Mazepin for Daddy's assistance but lack the talent. Horner worships him, probably didn't want him to leave for another team. I think Toto would have taken him to task where needed, Toto looks like someone I would not want to cross.

I did say when Verstappen won his first race he would win a title one day.

I'm looking forward to seeing George in the 2nd Mercedes next season. Could be interesting to see his ability in a fast car over the course of a season, could he challenge Lewis?

 

[hobbers]

I'm looking forward to seeing George in the 2nd Mercedes next season. Could be interesting to see his ability in a fast car over the course of a season, could he challenge Lewis?

I'm not sold on his racecraft yet, because he's basically not been tested on it, but one thing you can guarantee with Russell is he will out-qualify Lewis a whole lot more than Bottas has done the last few seasons.