F1 2021 Season

pauldyson1uk

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Formula 1's next generation power unit will reportedly no longer feature the costly and complicated MGU-H hybrid element, a change that could pave the way for Porsche and Audi to join F1's pool of engine suppliers.

Formula 1's stake holders are advancing in their efforts to define the sport's future engine regulations that are expected to be introduced in 2026.

Efforts involving F1, the teams and the FIA have been underway for some time to produce less complex and thus less expensive regulatory platform in a bid to reduce existing costs but also to attract additional engine suppliers to the current group that consists of Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda - or as of next year, Red Bull Powertrains.

According to a report from Auto Motor und Sport, all parties currently sitting at the table, including Porsche and Audi who were offered early on a seat in the talks, have agreed to the future engine's definition.

The defining point is the scrapping of the MGU-H which converts heat from an engine's turbo charger to energy and then stored.

However, stripping the hybrid element from the engine will require boosting the power generated by the MGU-K which fulfills a similar energy conversion role by tapping into the kinetic movement of the rear axle.

According to AMuS, the MGU-K's capability will be augmented to 350 kw/h (476 bhp) of power, a significant boost from the current 120 kw/h (163 bhp) threshold.

But boosting the MGU-K's capacity to harvest and deploy the required energy will imply a battery size and weight increase.

T
 

Jippy

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I randomly saw the Ineos boss Sir Jim Ratcliffe, Britain's richest man, in a restaurant this morning ahead of them the announcement on Mercedes F1 entering the America's Cup. He must've have dashed down to the south coast where the announcement is taking place, so I'm told.
 

arthurka

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Formula 1's next generation power unit will reportedly no longer feature the costly and complicated MGU-H hybrid element, a change that could pave the way for Porsche and Audi to join F1's pool of engine suppliers.

Formula 1's stake holders are advancing in their efforts to define the sport's future engine regulations that are expected to be introduced in 2026.

Efforts involving F1, the teams and the FIA have been underway for some time to produce less complex and thus less expensive regulatory platform in a bid to reduce existing costs but also to attract additional engine suppliers to the current group that consists of Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda - or as of next year, Red Bull Powertrains.

According to a report from Auto Motor und Sport, all parties currently sitting at the table, including Porsche and Audi who were offered early on a seat in the talks, have agreed to the future engine's definition.

The defining point is the scrapping of the MGU-H which converts heat from an engine's turbo charger to energy and then stored.

However, stripping the hybrid element from the engine will require boosting the power generated by the MGU-K which fulfills a similar energy conversion role by tapping into the kinetic movement of the rear axle.

According to AMuS, the MGU-K's capability will be augmented to 350 kw/h (476 bhp) of power, a significant boost from the current 120 kw/h (163 bhp) threshold.

But boosting the MGU-K's capacity to harvest and deploy the required energy will imply a battery size and weight increase.

T
The Mercs have dominated the MGU-H era and it has taken the other teams almost 7 years to close that gap. It's very expensive piece of kit and has no development possibilities to the consumer markets for automakers so they have had no interest entering. The news of the VW group entering isn't a coincidence both the regulation change and Abu Dhabi now being mentioned as a new 10% owner in the group comes at the same time as the 10 year contract with the F1. It has been time to change but I fear the change has been bought.
 

sun_tzu

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Formula 1's next generation power unit will reportedly no longer feature the costly and complicated MGU-H hybrid element, a change that could pave the way for Porsche and Audi to join F1's pool of engine suppliers.

Formula 1's stake holders are advancing in their efforts to define the sport's future engine regulations that are expected to be introduced in 2026.

Efforts involving F1, the teams and the FIA have been underway for some time to produce less complex and thus less expensive regulatory platform in a bid to reduce existing costs but also to attract additional engine suppliers to the current group that consists of Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda - or as of next year, Red Bull Powertrains.

According to a report from Auto Motor und Sport, all parties currently sitting at the table, including Porsche and Audi who were offered early on a seat in the talks, have agreed to the future engine's definition.

The defining point is the scrapping of the MGU-H which converts heat from an engine's turbo charger to energy and then stored.

However, stripping the hybrid element from the engine will require boosting the power generated by the MGU-K which fulfills a similar energy conversion role by tapping into the kinetic movement of the rear axle.

According to AMuS, the MGU-K's capability will be augmented to 350 kw/h (476 bhp) of power, a significant boost from the current 120 kw/h (163 bhp) threshold.

But boosting the MGU-K's capacity to harvest and deploy the required energy will imply a battery size and weight increase.

T
Probably a good move overall - that said I do wonder how long the 2026 engines will remain relevant because by 2030 perhaps hydrogen etc will be more cutting edge? but I guess teams need a long enough vision to enable them to plan properly and at the moment a petrol hybrid is the safest option.

Will be interesting to see how VW group approach things if they are to enter the sport though - will they just be an engine supplier or will they look to have a team (or two) and if so under what badge (audi, porsche or both)

If they are to enter as a team then how they do that will be interesting - do they buy out an established team or a back marker and keep the existing branding till 2026?... Williams would seem the obvious choice if they went down the route of buying an existing team - personally I would love to see more cars on the grid so introducing a couple of new teams would be great but I guess the expertise to design an F1 car from scratch really is niche and there probably isn't lots of people who would leave the sport for a few years to prepare a new team
 

pauldyson1uk

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Probably a good move overall - that said I do wonder how long the 2026 engines will remain relevant because by 2030 perhaps hydrogen etc will be more cutting edge? but I guess teams need a long enough vision to enable them to plan properly and at the moment a petrol hybrid is the safest option.

Will be interesting to see how VW group approach things if they are to enter the sport though - will they just be an engine supplier or will they look to have a team (or two) and if so under what badge (audi, porsche or both)

If they are to enter as a team then how they do that will be interesting - do they buy out an established team or a back marker and keep the existing branding till 2026?... Williams would seem the obvious choice if they went down the route of buying an existing team - personally I would love to see more cars on the grid so introducing a couple of new teams would be great but I guess the expertise to design an F1 car from scratch really is niche and there probably isn't lots of people who would leave the sport for a few years to prepare a new team
Hydrogen, now thats an interesting concept.
Did a bit o digging around and found this.

Why are hydrogen engines a bad idea?

The biggest reason why hydrogen-combustion engines are no good? They create nitrogen oxide, which isn't good for people or the environment. Even though carbon isn't part of the hydrogen combustion process.

Personally I see VW being engine suppliers only at first.
 

dinostar77

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Red Bull appeal against Mercedes use of sensors around the engine got thrown out pretty quickly by fia.
 

dinostar77

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Hydrogen, now thats an interesting concept.
Did a bit o digging around and found this.

Why are hydrogen engines a bad idea?

The biggest reason why hydrogen-combustion engines are no good? They create nitrogen oxide, which isn't good for people or the environment. Even though carbon isn't part of the hydrogen combustion process.

Personally I see VW being engine suppliers only at first.

Chain bear explains all.
 

The Firestarter

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Hydrogen, now thats an interesting concept.
Did a bit o digging around and found this.

Why are hydrogen engines a bad idea?

The biggest reason why hydrogen-combustion engines are no good? They create nitrogen oxide, which isn't good for people or the environment. Even though carbon isn't part of the hydrogen combustion process.

Personally I see VW being engine suppliers only at first.
So , they need some AdBlue. That would be fun
 

sun_tzu

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Ross Brawn predicts lewis will retire with 120 grand prix victories to his name.

Personally I think thats ambitious (an average of 10 wins per season for the next two seasons), but we wont know until we see how competitive next years Mercedes is.
100 wins out of 281 races

He has 100 now with 7gps left this year

23 races next year and I guess probably 23 the year after that

53 races so if he carried on at the win ratio he currently has I think that would take him to 119

As you say depends how competitive the merc car is next year (and the remainder of this)

Certainly possible though - especially if Merc have a really good car and he stays for 3 seasons (not impossible as hes 4 years younger than alonso)
 

sun_tzu

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The Firestarter

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Why are they dropping the mgu-h for next year ? It served a really nice dual role acting as a waste gate apart from the energy recovery / utilisation.
 

elmo

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Why are they dropping the mgu-h for next year ? It served a really nice dual role acting as a waste gate apart from the energy recovery / utilisation.
It's only reports, not confirmed yet. But the reasoning behind the drop is that it's to expensive to develop which prevents newer engine suppliers from entering the sport.
 

dinostar77

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It's only reports, not confirmed yet. But the reasoning behind the drop is that it's to expensive to develop which prevents newer engine suppliers from entering the sport.
Yep it was the main root of Honda problems for 3 years. Also has no use with commercial car industry.
 

ZIDANE

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Looking forward to the different colour scheme and whilst it's a shame Honda decided to leave you have to give them a huge amount of respect for challenging Mercedes in the hybrid era after starting late and producing a GP2 engine, something which Ferrari and Renault have still failed to do.

I actually think I want them to win the championship above this Max vs Ham debate.

 

slyadams

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The rumours of Porsche/VW getting into making engines is a bit weird. Even without the MGU-H these things cost a tonne to develop, you can't turn a profit on them so why would they do it? I could understand possibly if they were entering as a team, but just with engines?

Red Bull and Alpha Tauri will use the Honda/Red Bull Engine and Alpine, Ferrari and Mercedes make their own.

That leaves Haas, Williams, McLaren, Alfa and Aston where they would have to displace an incumbent.
 

The Firestarter

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The rumours of Porsche/VW getting into making engines is a bit weird. Even without the MGU-H these things cost a tonne to develop, you can't turn a profit on them so why would they do it? I could understand possibly if they were entering as a team, but just with engines?

Red Bull and Alpha Tauri will use the Honda/Red Bull Engine and Alpine, Ferrari and Mercedes make their own.

That leaves Haas, Williams, McLaren, Alfa and Aston where they would have to displace an incumbent.
Well the benefit is that you can use that tech in your production cars later, like Merc have done.
 

slyadams

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Well the benefit is that you can use that tech in your production cars later, like Merc have done.
That is a side benefit of doing it yes, but its a very financially inefficient way if that is your only aim. Let's say it costs £200m to design and build a new F1 engine (that's pretty conservative). You get the advertising of entering the sport and probably you make a loss on each engine because the only way to displace someone is probably to undercut them. You could just take that £200m and just spend it purely on the R&D.
 

The Firestarter

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That is a side benefit of doing it yes, but its a very financially inefficient way if that is your only aim. Let's say it costs £200m to design and build a new F1 engine (that's pretty conservative). You get the advertising of entering the sport and probably you make a loss on each engine because the only way to displace someone is probably to undercut them. You could just take that £200m and just spend it purely on the R&D.
That is of course true. But are the other supplier teams actually turning a profit on the engines when the whole r&d effort is taken into account? Its mostly about prestige I guess.
 

dinostar77

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The brand value has been enormous. Mercedes alone have gone from advertising value of $60million in 2012 to $4.5billion in 2020.

Its chances the image of Mercedes completely and opened them to a younger audience.

Obviously if VW or subsidiary came in it wouldn't be as a full works team. But the benefits to the road car programme are there. The most powerful 4 cylinder engine in the world (420 bhp) in the AMG a45s wouldnt have happened were it not for the f1 programme.
 

slyadams

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That is of course true. But are the other supplier teams actually turning a profit on the engines when the whole r&d effort is taken into account? Its mostly about prestige I guess.
This is hard to judge because there's very few 'vanilla' deals. Merc have a deal with Williams that includes Russell, Alfa have a deal with Ferrari to place someone in their second seat. I doubt Honda are making anything meaningful with the RB teams as they're pulling out.

The brand value has been enormous. Mercedes alone have gone from advertising value of $60million in 2012 to $4.5billion in 2020.

Its chances the image of Mercedes completely and opened them to a younger audience.

Obviously if VW or subsidiary came in it wouldn't be as a full works team. But the benefits to the road car programme are there. The most powerful 4 cylinder engine in the world (420 bhp) in the AMG a45s wouldnt have happened were it not for the f1 programme.
Merc have won 7 constructor titles in a row as a full constructor, its not really a fair comparison to someone just building an engine. In some ways I actually see more value in VW branding it than Porsche, to make the money back from F1 you probably need to be a mass producer of cars, which Porsche aren't really. Certainly innovations come out of F1, the question is for a pure engine manufacturer is it value for the money? So far the answer is an emphatic no because there's only 4 manufacturers and 1 chose to pull out.
 

Buster15

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Its all but guaranteed the Mercs will be at or near the front of the grid with engine regulations staying pretty much the same until 2025 and the Mercs having the best engine set up currently
And of course there are still 7 races this season.
 

Adam-Utd

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Hamilton looking imperious in FP1.

With changeable conditions again possible this weekend, who knows what could happen.

With Perez struggling again and this circuit being about more than just straight line speed, I think he can make it back to 2nd place no problem.
 

Leg-End

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Hamilton can win from 10 back, but can’t underestimate how bad the Merc is in dirty air, Bottas didn’t go forward at all in Sochi but then he is pants.

I reckon if he’s 1 or 2 in quali they will stick with +10 but if for whatever reason he’s 4-5 they may as well stick all new components in it and start from the back.
 

pauldyson1uk

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Hamilton can win from 10 back, but can’t underestimate how bad the Merc is in dirty air, Bottas didn’t go forward at all in Sochi but then he is pants.

I reckon if he’s 1 or 2 in quali they will stick with +10 but if for whatever reason he’s 4-5 they may as well stick all new components in it and start from the back.
That is going to be his problem, the merc with a new engine is clearly the fastest car in the track, but like you say dirty air is its kryptonite, hates it .
Good call for the extra components, starts a back of the grid, maybe even just do what Max did, free choice of tyres to start the race.
 

ArjenIsM3

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That is going to be his problem, the merc with a new engine is clearly the fastest car in the track, but like you say dirty air is its kryptonite, hates it .
Good call for the extra components, starts a back of the grid, maybe even just do what Max did, free choice of tyres to start the race.
The Merc looks the fastest car by a country mile. I reckon he could win it.
 
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sewey89

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If it's a good track to pass and lewis is starting towards the back, it might make for an interesting race