FA to investigate Edinson Cavani | This thread is taking a break

[golden_blunder]

Which precedent are you referring to, can you be a bit more specific in your posts when you're making claims.

Bernardo Silva was fined 50k and banned for 1 match for something similar (as in social media exchange between 2 friends that’s deemed as racist in the U.K. )

 

[the_answer]

The whole situation is like some absurdist comedy.

I've lived in four different countries. Age 6-10 I spent with my family in Brazil, where these type of nicknames are an important part of everyday speech. I am extremely dark skinned black, born in Ethiopia - yet the nickname I always got was Gordito because I was a chubby little kid. The people I most remember getting the Negrito nickname were light-skinned people with dark hair.

Anglo countries have become obsessed with searching for offence, even if it means actively ignoring all context and intent. It genuinely baffles me to see people comparing this situation to Suarez-Evra, like there's no difference in using the word Negro multiple times in an argument with a stranger, while pinching his skin and allegedly saying 'I don't speak to blacks' - compared to a man publically (ie clearly with good intent) using a nickname while thanking a friend for his congratulations.

The ironic thing is, despite the absolutely endless - often damaging imo - hyperfocus on identity and 'tolerance' in Anglo countries, the second that a situation happens where a person's actions actually have to be judged in light of their own cultural background, everybody instead just pretends that context doesn't exist, that their own narrow cultural frame of reference overrules all others and that erasure of South American culture and language is not just fine, but encouraged.

Demanding things like a 'reeducation' is just so creepy, and ironically reinforcing of some sort of perceived Anglo superiority.

Exactly, why do we have to be constantly taught what is right and wrong and be reeducated certain thoughts, just because the US and British media deem it to be the "correct" thought.
People in the US or UK deem the N Word offensive, fine... dont use it among yourselves...
But if I use a word describing black in my own language... it's no one's business.

 

[bsCallout]

No I’m not. I’m perfectly comfortable in my stance on this and how I can see racism where others can’t.

Nothing like someone being offended for someone else(who doesnt exist). The all seeing Sammsky.

 

[spiriticon]

But Spanish speakers have argued without reserve that the word itself cannot have offence.

Even better? If the word itself cannot cause offence, then there's nothing to be offended by. The context is clearly a friendly one so it cannot possibly cause offence to the receiver.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

This is the critical point of this entire debate. But it requires true empathy and wisdom from majority ethics to be able to see this.

It doesn’t. It just needs the idiots to all shut up. This shit isn’t hard.

 

[90 + 5min]

Key word being past...

I know and I believe that he has been trying to fix his problems. But for me, he is not in the position where he can lecture others. He should just think about himself and how he can make world a better place.

 

[Drifter]

What was the context that he used it in?

 

[cyberman]

Wi

I'm speaking about in the UK by the way, hence why I said cultural issue. Obviously, UK society dictates what is socially acceptable in the UK.
And UK professional bodies dictate what their spokes persons/employees can say on public platforms, this has always been the case whether you think its right or not.

I have no personal issue with what Cavani said.

With Brexit and most of the views thats aired, I dont think this is true.

 

[sammsky1]

Even better? If the word itself cannot cause offence, then there's nothing to be offended by. The context is clearly a friendly one so it cannot possibly cause offence to the receiver.

So why was Suarez punished?

 

[spiriticon]

So why was Suarez punished?

Because Evra was offended by the non-friendly context.

The two cases are only similar if Cavani's friend asks for him to be investigated and banned.

 

[golden_blunder]

Look guys, we are all united fans here. None of us want our new lovely striker to be banned for something he may not be aware of as it’s different in his own culture.

we all are entitled to our opinions but please refrain from personal insults etc at those people offering their opinion.

 

[UncleBob]

Bernardo Silva was fined 50k and banned for 1 match for something similar (as in social media exchange between 2 friends that’s deemed as racist in the U.K. )

Something similar

 

[Zlatan 7]

To all those defending use of this word with U.K Because it’s a Spanish word and has context: @Revan

What happens tomorrow when white people around UK start calling black people ‘negrito’ and then claim they are using the word as a term of endearment, as its is supposedly used in Spanish cultures. What’s your response?

looking forward to replies.

Then that’s obviously being disingenuous as they’d then be speaking English and adding Spanish words. Totally different to someone speaking Spanish to their Spanish speaking friends.

Stop asking stupid questions just to provoke.

 

[Cassidy]

Wi

With Brexit and most of the views thats aired, I dont think this is true.

It is true, its just not fairly actioned, and we know why but I won't get into that

 

[cyberman]

It is true, its just not fairly actioned, and we know why but I won't get into that

Your PM called muslim woman postboxes and it was never brought up again!

 

[rooney2009]

I cant understand why some people are arguing in favor of Cavani
Ignorance is not excuse
The word is not acceptable in the UK and it is not a word anyone of us would use, its like we are not allowed to drink in public in Dubai
We were all against Suarez for using the word against Evra so I'm sure Cavani should have been aware
I've got Zero-Tolerance for any kind of Racism, not that I think that Cavani was being racist but he should not be using the word here
Its a stipulated 3 game ban so lets just accept it and move on

 

[MackRobinson]

But you're missing the point. Even in the best case scenario where the term is meant as a "term of endearment", why is it only black people that are reduced to their skin colour? Is there an equivalent "Thanks whitey" which is also used as a "term of endearment"? I suspect you already know the answer to that.

Civil rights leaders such as Malcom X referred to black people as "negroes", and while I completely agree with your premise we can publicly shame people for using terms that have only recently become taboo to say.

 

[Vidyoyo]

So my wording was slightly exaggerated. So what?

Simply tongue-it-cheek. I didn't realise tension was running so high in this thread tbh.

 

[sammsky1]

Because Evra was offended by the non-friendly context.

The two cases are only similar if Cavani's friend asks for him to be investigated and banned.

You can’t on the one hand say the word has no negative racial meaning as Spanish speakers claim (as did Suarez) and then say it’s highly offensive in a specific context.
FA set their own precedence. That’s the rules Cavani and others will have to abide by.

 

[golden_blunder]

Something similar

You just watch the FA slap a fine

 

[Cassidy]

Your PM called muslim woman postboxes and it was never brought up again!

Not my PM by the way, I am not English, but you proved my point. It is not fairly actioned like I said, and we know why.
Its not true it wasn't brought up again by the way, its brought quite often by political activists and opposition

 

[sammsky1]

Simply tongue-it-cheek. I didn't realise tension was running so high in this thread tbh.

tension is just reflective of the use of the word itself and some trying to justify it when it clearly has issues in a U.K. context.

 

[Strelok]

Bernardo Silva was fined 50k and banned for 1 match for something similar (as in social media exchange between 2 friends that’s deemed as racist in the U.K. )

Yep, as crazy as it may sound.

So it seems Cavani will be fined unfortunately. Right after his breaking match.

I don't blame Cavani a tiny bit, it's just bad luck. Or United should have warned him in advanced I think. How the hell he'd know all this.

https://talksport.com/football/6295...hester-city-banned-fine-benjamin-mendy-tweet/

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

You can’t on the one hand say the word has no negative racial meaning as Spanish speakers claim (as did Suarez) and then say it’s highly offensive in a specific context.
FA set their own precedence. That’s the rules Cavani and others will have to abide by.

But that’s entirely the problem with modern society. The context of your words should matter far much than the actual world being spoken. I think it’s a very slippery slope that we have been heading down for a long time. I get the intentions are noble but the method is truly madness.

 

[Cassidy]

I cant understand why some people are arguing in favor of Cavani
Ignorance is not excuse
The word is not acceptable in the UK and it is not a word anyone of us would use, its like we are not allowed to drink in public in Dubai
We were all against Suarez for using the word against Evra so I'm sure Cavani should have been aware
I've got Zero-Tolerance for any kind of Racism, not that I think that Cavani was being racist but he should not be using the word here
Its a stipulated 3 game ban so lets just accept it and move on

Not what the FA said by the way, and we wouldn't use it since we don't speak Spanish

 

[UncleBob]

You just watch the FA slap a fine

Oh, i'll probably watch the FA slap a 3 match ban, a fine + the educational bit.

There's a vast difference between what Silva did and what Cavani did, there are no similarities or cultural differences, the entire defence was that it was a joke among friends.

 

[NinjaFletch]

You're right of course that the power balance is totally and utterly different here. Muzungu is also used as a more broad term towards anyone who they see as not being properly 'African' (for instance, I got called Muzungu in Uganda as they saw me as a Westernised African and my wife got called Muzungu, even though she's half Egyptian).

That is the greatest difference (and despite what some on here seem to be trying to argue, black people have had a pretty terrible time of it in South America, it wasn't some harmonious racial free for all). Regardless, I don't like referring to people by their colour so yeah, I don't think it is necessary or particularly appropriate to be doing so in the UK. And, as with negrito, I did not go around Uganda telling people to shut up and not use muzungu.

I guess the obvious complicating factor here is that it's an interaction that occurred semi-privately (and one in which I still don't think we know the context of; it's entirely possible that this Pablofer is not black, which massively changes things, of course) between two Spanish speakers in Spanish. Personally, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of dictating to Spanish speakers how their own language should be spoken and think we very quickly come onto shaky grounds if we do so, as you've alluded to. But it's entirely possible that the origins of using it are uncomfortable, and I'm not sure we've had a convincing discussion of that in either this instance of the Suarez incident. As we've seen many times in the past, white people are perfectly capable of not realising the impact 'innocuous' words or phrases have, and vehemently fighting back when it's pointed out.

Were it to be a conversation primarily in English in which Cavani threw in the word, I think the context significantly shifts, but then I take @sammsky1's point that it could become a term of racist abuse in this country. I would not be surprised if the Suarez incident had led to children adopting the phrase 'negrito' (at least temporarily) as a term of abuse. I guess the crux of the argument here is whether our cultural sensitivities should impact on speakers of other languages whilst they happen to be here. It's fair to say that there's a balance to be struck (as with the muzungu/negrito examples we've cited). Personally, I'm not sure it needs to go much further than what's already happened (and my sense is that you're largely there too with how you've said you would deal with it yourself) but I have nothing at stake here.

 

[Cassidy]

But that’s entirely the problem with modern society. The context of your words should matter far much than the actual world being spoken. I think it’s a very slippery slope that we have been heading down for a long time. I get the intentions are noble but the method is truly madness.

As well as context of the audience and historical context.

 

[Dante]

Should spanish people stop using their word for 'black' altogether? Should the country of Montenegro also change its name?

Of course not.

'Negrito' just happens to be cognate with 'negro', but the former was never the word used to denigrate slaves on plantations. It's found its way into the Uruguayan vernacular via a very different path through history from the n-word and so shouldn't be lumped into the same category.

If that's the logic we're following, use of the word 'night' should also be censured because shares a common etymological root if you go back far enough.

 

[dal]

He should be banned.

Culture or not, high profile players can’t say these things.

 

[sammsky1]

Then that’s obviously being disingenuous as they’d then be speaking English and adding Spanish words. Totally different to someone speaking Spanish to their Spanish speaking friends.

Stop asking stupid questions just to provoke.

If you think it’s a stupid question, that’s on you. Not much I can do about that.

 

[the_answer]

Then that’s obviously being disingenuous as they’d then be speaking English and adding Spanish words. Totally different to someone speaking Spanish to their Spanish speaking friends.

Stop asking stupid questions just to provoke.

I'd recommend people just use Neige (which is the chinese word for "that"
Actually some chinese language professor in the US was cancelled because he was explaining this particular word cant make it up

I cant understand why some people are arguing in favor of Cavani
Ignorance is not excuse
The word is not acceptable in the UK and it is not a word anyone of us would use, its like we are not allowed to drink in public in Dubai
We were all against Suarez for using the word against Evra so I'm sure Cavani should have been aware
I've got Zero-Tolerance for any kind of Racism, not that I think that Cavani was being racist but he should not be using the word here
Its a stipulated 3 game ban so lets just accept it and move on

The english word is not acceptable due to the racial context.
But the spanish word (and I guess bunch of words derived from Latin) are just fine.

And even if cavani lives in england and plays in england he should have the right to use a spanish word to communicate with fellow latin people how he wants (on an international social platform). If he used the english n word during an interview it would be a different thing obviously.

 

[horsechoker]

Common sense always prevails.

 

[cyberman]

Not my PM by the way, I am not English, but you proved my point. It is not fairly actioned like I said, and we know why.
Its not true it wasn't brought up again by the way, its brought quite often by political activists and opposition

Its not actioned because casual, if not outright blatant, racism has become acceptable in the UK.
Its a stretch to call this racist and should be judged by similar standards in the UK, which doesnt have the credit to be on the moral high ground over this.

 

[Ludens the Red]

That's not what i asked for. I asked if they have changed the rules so that context no longer applies.

Nope, context will apply. It’s a case of three game ban just for using the language deemed not acceptable and then for anything further, circumstances and context are then looked at.

 

[spiriticon]

You can’t on the one hand say the word has no negative racial meaning as Spanish speakers claim (as did Suarez) and then say it’s highly offensive in a specific context.
FA set their own precedence. That’s the rules Cavani and others will have to abide by.

If Cavani get's banned, he gets banned. I'm not particularly for or against it. Them's the rules.

I just find it incredulous that we have a system which insists that a random term is deemed offensive when the guy who is actually on the receiving end is probably laughing his head off behind the scenes.

 

[MackRobinson]

Do black people say ‘hey white man’ as a term of endearment in return? What is that phrase?

I suspect this term ‘negreto’ originated as a subliminal form of white supremacy, to ensure ‘others’ would always be identified as different, and that could subsequently be abused through discrimination. Else what is the point?

No, but we are talking about South Americans. Argentine women call each other "gorda" (fat) and it's not uncommon to see a blonde-haired, blue-eyed SA referred to "lo blondo" or something of the sort.

Personally, I find all of this is to be performance art. I care more about actions rather than words. This is low-hanging fruit that gives people the ability to ignore nuance and feign outrage about racial discrimination on a public forum and then go back to living their regularly scheduled lives. Raging about this doesn't do or accomplish anything.

 

[L1nk]

I personally think it's irrelevant who he was addressing, he's using racially loaded language whilst in the UK and on a public space. You have to take in to consideration that what may seem a term of endearment to you can be derogatory or offensive to someone else.

The swastika use to be a symbol of prosperity and good luck in India way before the Nazi's were a thing, but you wouldn't catch many using it expecting people to immediately understand the context.

No i get that, i was purely addressing the fact that the post said Cavani was addressing the person by his skin colour, which he wasn't because the person he was responding to was white

 

[rooney2009]

Not what the FA said by the way, and we wouldn't use it since we don't speak Spanish

This is just a stupid argument, it is not a good word to use whether its Spanish or English
Child abuse or domestic violence are allowed in some countries but it does not make it right
its not a good word to use and if He wasn't a united player we wouldn't be having this conversation,
and although I love united to bits, as some one who has zero tolerance towards Racism I would be disappointed if He doesn't get a ban or at least a fine and some education

 

[UncleBob]

Nope, context will apply. It’s a case of three game ban just for using the language deemed not acceptable and then for anything further, circumstances and context are then looked at.

But it's a foreign language which holds no direct meaning in English, if the language is acceptable or not depends on the context...