FA to investigate Edinson Cavani | This thread is taking a break

[sammsky1]

If Cavani get's banned, he gets banned. I'm not particularly for or against it. Them's the rules.

I just find it incredulous that we are insisting a random term is deemed offensive when the guy who is actually on the receiving end is probably laughing his head off behind the scenes.

Im just confused that it was concluded that when Suarez used the word he intended malicious hurt, yet now we are told that the word itself in Spanish can never ever have such associations.
to me that feels like it’s wrong if a Liverpool players but OK for a Manchester player.

FYI: IMO cavani was ignorant in this instance and didnt intend any malice, but that’s not an acceptable excuse.

 

[RepardReece]

Should spanish people stop using their word for 'black' altogether? Should the country of Montenegro also change its name?

Of course not.

'Negrito' just happens to be cognate with 'negro', but the former was never the word used to denigrate slaves on plantations. It's found its way into the Uruguayan vernacular via a very different path through history from the n-word and so shouldn't be lumped into the same category.

If that's the logic we're following, use of the word 'night' should also be censured because shares a common etymological root if you go back far enough.

This. The world is so soft and it's kinda pathetic how a term in Uruguayan that isn't offensive is then translated as offensive in English. He was responding to an Uruguayan fan, it's not offensive, and not to mention he's white, so it's clearly not meant in that way.

I understand racism still exists in this world and it obviously 100% shouldn't exist, but picking on crap like this is ridiculous.

 

[sullydnl]

But that’s entirely the problem with modern society. The context of your words should matter far much than the actual world being spoken. I think it’s a very slippery slope that we have been heading down for a long time. I get the intentions are noble but the method is truly madness.

The context does matter. If Cavani had said something as part of a hate-filled screed then he would be facing much more trouble and would be facing multiple times the backlash.

What context doesn't do though is render every other point invalid, which seems to be what a lot of people actually want when they say we should take context into account.

It's also worth pointing out that intent is just one context you could frame the incident in. You could also look at it in the context of the extremely heightened awareness on race issues and language this year, the new guidelines the FA presented to clubs at the start of the season on racist language and social media content, the previous incidents involving high-profile footballers and the intended audience of his words. That's context too. Context that those arguing that Cavani shouldn't face any punishment should probably weigh a bit more themselves.

 

[GenZRed]

I cant understand why some people are arguing in favor of Cavani
Ignorance is not excuse
The word is not acceptable in the UK and it is not a word anyone of us would use, its like we are not allowed to drink in public in Dubai
We were all against Suarez for using the word against Evra so I'm sure Cavani should have been aware
I've got Zero-Tolerance for any kind of Racism, not that I think that Cavani was being racist but he should not be using the word here
Its a stipulated 3 game ban so lets just accept it and move on

Because 'some people' aren't knee jerk losers.

Cavani should be told to never post anything with that word again while in the UK. The idea though that this is some great scandal is just absurd.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

So why was Suarez punished?

I thought the word used was different in Suarez's case (and had a different meaning, even before the clear intent was brought into it)?

 

[cyberman]

Im just confused that it was concluded that when Suarez used the word he intended malicious hurt, yet now we are told that the word itself in Spanish can never ever have such associations.
to me that feels like it’s wrong if a Liverpool players but OK for a Manchester player.

FYI: IMO cavani was ignorant in this instance and didnt intend any malice, but that’s not an acceptable excuse.

Suarez didnt use the word. Its been pointed out 20x in this thread alone.
Part of that mockery was pretending it was used as affection when they were having a blazing row

 

[UncleBob]

Im just confused that it was concluded that when Suarez used the word he intended malicious hurt, yet now we are told that the word itself in Spanish can never ever have such associations.
to me that feels like it’s wrong if a Liverpool players but OK for a Manchester player.

FYI: IMO cavani was ignorant in this instance and didnt intend any malice, but that’s not an acceptable excuse.

What the feck are you on about?

The verdict released by the FA after the Suarez - Evra case even states that it's the context it's said in that matters

 

[antohan]

Yeah, this is exactly my point. The South American poster is trying to justify the use of it in the same context as ‘big head’ ‘big nose’ etc - in other words insults.

Yeah, you got it, we do it because we like to spend all day insulting our friends.

 

[spiriticon]

Im just confused that it was concluded that when Suarez used the word he intended malicious hurt, yet now we are told that the word itself in Spanish can never ever have such associations.
to me that feels like it’s wrong if a Liverpool players but OK for a Manchester player.

FYI: IMO cavani was ignorant in this instance and didnt intend any malice, but that’s not an acceptable excuse.

That's why you look at the 'victim' or the person on the receiving end. Is he offended? Yes? Take action. No? No action needed. Evra was offended, Cavani's friend was not.

Any common descriptive word can cause offence in truth e.g. black, white, boy, girl, skinny, fat, tall, short, rich, poor. It's not limited to just 'negrito'

 

[rooney2009]

hopefully his ban comes into effect after the City Game, would be a shame to lose him before that

 

[Strelok]

No i get that, i was purely addressing the fact that the post said Cavani was addressing the person by his skin colour, which he wasn't because the person he was responding to was white

Is this true?

If yes, why the fuss? I'm so confused

 

[Ludens the Red]

But it's a foreign language which holds no direct meaning in English, if the language is acceptable or not depends on the context...

True and in the Suarez case they did say they accepted it could be a term of endearment but I think the fa will still have it under language that shouldn’t be used.

What’s quite amazing is that Cavani is a long time team mate/friend of Suarez and you would thjnk would have been aware of the Suarez/negrito/Evra scandal.
How he’s not been aware enough to avoid using that word on social media of all places is quite astonishing.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Im just confused that it was concluded that when Suarez used the word he intended malicious hurt, yet now we are told that the word itself in Spanish can never ever have such associations.
to me that feels like it’s wrong if a Liverpool players but OK for a Manchester player.

FYI: IMO cavani was ignorant in this instance and didnt intend any malice, but that’s not an acceptable excuse.

Suarez told Evra, "I kicked you because you're black".

Cavani said, "Thanks, sweetie" to a friend of his.

Why are you confused? Why shouldn't we excuse Cavani's ignorance of the fact that English speakers may literally and incorrectly translate an idiomatic word from Spanish and deem it offensive and malicious?

 

[Jim Reaper]

Suarez admitted to saying negro negro negro not Negrito. Context also makes a difference

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

True and in the Suarez case they did say they accepted it could be a term of endearment but I think the fa will still have it under language that shouldn’t be used.

What’s quite amazing is that Cavani is a long time team mate/friend of Suarez and you would thjnk would have been aware of the Suarez/negrito/Evra scandal.
How he’s not been aware enough to avoid using that word on social media of all places is quite astonishing.

Suarez didn't use negrito.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Avoided this thread as I anticipated it would be the usual dumpster fire, and I must say, I am pleasantly surprised.

It is so much worse than I anticipated.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

United statement

"Edinson Cavani has issued a sincere apology for a social media post after Sunday’s game against Southampton.

The Uruguayan striker said: “The message I posted after the match on Sunday was intended as an affectionate greeting to a friend, thanking him for his congratulations after the game. The last thing I wanted to do was cause offence to anyone. I am completely opposed to racism and deleted the message as soon as it was explained that it can be interpreted differently. I would like to sincerely apologise for this.”

In a statement, Manchester United said: “It is clear to us that there was absolutely no malicious intent behind Edinson’s message and he deleted it as soon as he was informed that it could be misconstrued. Edinson has issued an apology for any unintentional offence caused. Manchester United and all of our players are fully committed to the fight against racism.”

 

[UncleBob]

So why was Suarez punished?

Suarez says he used “negro” as a noun and that it was a “friendly form of address to people seen as black or brown-skinned or even just blackhaired”. He said that he used it in the same way that he did when he spoke to team-mate Glen Johnson.

Two Spanish language experts – Professor Peter Wade and Dr James Scorer – prepared a written report on the linguistic and cultural interpretations of the word “negro”. They agreed it can “be used as a friendly form of address” and that if Suarez had used the word in the way he claimed then “this would not be interpreted as offensive in racial terms in Uruguay and Spanish-speaking America more generally”. However, they also said that if Suarez had used the word “negro” in the manner described by Evra then it would be racially offensive.

 

[sullydnl]

The word in question – “negrito” – brings back into light the infamous row that took place between Cavani’s friend and Uruguay teammate Luis Suárez and Patrice Evra during a game between Liverpool and Manchester United in 2011. It was the word Suárez was believed to have said to Evra; the striker later admitted he said “negro” but did so in a friendly manner that is common in Uruguay. However, the FA’s disciplinary panel rejected this explanation, deeming Suárez had used the word in a derogatory manner and that while he is not a racist, he had been racially abusive to Evra.

Key parts in bold.

I think it's right that Cavani receive a punishment but this is nothing like the Suarez case. Different word, different context, different intent, different offence. I don't know why a Manchester United forum of all places is comparing the two.

 

[Revan]

This is just a stupid argument, it is not a good word to use whether its Spanish or English
Child abuse or domestic violence are allowed in some countries but it does not make it right
its not a good word to use and if He wasn't a united player we wouldn't be having this conversation,
and although I love united to bits, as some one who has zero tolerance towards Racism I would be disappointed if He doesn't get a ban or at least a fine and some education

Says who? Some Englishman who doesn't speak any Spanish?

Negro is not a good word to use in English because it does not exist. But then, Cavani was writing in Spanish, as can be seen by 'Grazias' before 'Negrito'.

 

[HackeyC]

To all those defending use of this word with U.K Because it’s a Spanish word and has context: @Revan

What happens tomorrow when white people around UK start calling black people ‘negrito’ and then claim they are using the word as a term of endearment, as its is supposedly used in Spanish cultures. What’s your response?

looking forward to replies.

The same as a white person in western society using the n word yet it is fully acceptable for rappers to use it in context. My wife's family often refer to me as "gwai lo" in Cantonese which literally means foreign devil or ghost man, but I don't take offence as it isn't meant offensively, it's just a language thing. If they called me "foreign devil" in English I would however be annoyed.

 

[AjaxNL]

That's why you look at the 'victim' or the person on the receiving end. Is he offended? Yes? Take action. No? No action needed. Evra was offended, Cavani's friend was not.

Any common descriptive word can cause offence in truth e.g. black, white, boy, girl, skinny, fat, tall, short, rich, poor. It's not limited to just 'negrito'

That's insane. So in the instance that a friend publicly calls another friend the worst racial slang imaginable (which, clearly, Cavani did not), but the receiving friend is not offended, because they are friends and they banter like that all the time, no action is needed? Obviously, using that racial slur might be offensive to a lot of other people, and furthermore will normalise the use of said racial slur. It's crazy to say that no action is needed if the receiving party is not offended.

 

[troylocker]

Yep, as crazy as it may sound.

So it seems Cavani will be fined unfortunately. Right after his breaking match.

I don't blame Cavani a tiny bit, it's just bad luck. Or United should have warned him in advanced I think. How the hell he'd know all this.

https://talksport.com/football/6295...hester-city-banned-fine-benjamin-mendy-tweet/

How is it just bad luck? He's been living in Europe for 14 years and "say no to racism" has never been more current. No one should have to tell him that staying away from all phrases involving skincolor and sexuality is the smart and right thing to do. Even if he means no harm with it. It was an ignorant and stupid comment that he should apologize for, take his ban and never do it again.

 

[Stacks]

To all those defending use of this word with U.K Because it’s a Spanish word and has context: @Revan

What happens tomorrow when white people around UK start calling black people ‘negrito’ and then claim they are using the word as a term of endearment, as its is supposedly used in Spanish cultures. What’s your response?

looking forward to replies.

I'd imagine tomorrow you would have a lot of confused black folk with raise eyebrows saying "Negrito? what exactly does that mean mate?"

 

[The Firestarter]

Says who? Some Englishman who doesn't speak any Spanish?

Negro is not a good word to use in English because it does not exist. But then, Cavani was writing in Spanish, as can be seen by 'Grazias' before 'Negrito'.

Thats factually incorrect.

 

[Rado_N]

20 years ago I was in Brazil working on nailing a big fat contract. My Portuguese was rudimentary, I pretty much spoke Spanish and added a lot of ção and inho here and there.

When it was finally wrapped up we arranged to go have dinner that night. One of the (quite stunning) ladies offered me a lift back to the hotel and in front of fifteen people I looked at her straight in the eye as I said "Thank you love, but could we briefly stop at the shopping centre so I can buy the proper condom that this celebration deserves"

Spoiler

Camisa = shirt
Camisinha = condom

FML, watching their faces I reiterated the point that the occasion deserved a proper condom to celebrate with them all. Took me about five minutes to work it out and turn into a red beam.

This is fantastic, condoms should be called “dick shirts” from now on.

 

[sammsky1]

The context does matter. If Cavani had said something as part of a hate-filled screed then he would be facing much more trouble and would be facing multiple times the backlash.

What context doesn't do though is render every other point invalid, which seems to be what a lot of people actually want when they say we should take context into account.

It's also worth pointing out that intent is just one context you could frame the incident in. You could also look at it in the context of the extremely heightened awareness on race issues and language this year, the new guidelines the FA presented to clubs at the start of the season on racist language and social media content, the previous incidents involving high-profile footballers and the intended audience of his words. That's context too. Context that those arguing that Cavani shouldn't face any punishment should probably weigh a bit more themselves.

I’ve been struggling to identify my primary discomfort with this but you’ve just perfectly expressed it in the bolded above so many thanks for that!!

I wrote above that these Spanish language cultural norms were established during the era of white supremacy, slavery and embedded cultural racism. We don’t live in that era anymore, so all these cultural expressions through language need to evolve, certainly when expressed in UK. (Same for the English language inside U.K. too!)

premier league footballers are still taking the knee before every game and will do til the end of the season! So at least within the context of of professional football, there can’t be any grey areas.

 

[Jippy]

Exactly, why do we have to be constantly taught what is right and wrong and be reeducated certain thoughts, just because the US and British media deem it to be the "correct" thought.
People in the US or UK deem the N Word offensive, fine... dont use it among yourselves...
But if I use a word describing black in my own language... it's no one's business.

That's not really true for Premier League footballers though who have to adhere to the FA's rules.

 

[The Firestarter]

This is fantastic, condoms should be called “dick shirts” from now on.

You know that song whose lyrics go:
"Tengo la camisa negra"

 

[Oldyella]

Im just confused that it was concluded that when Suarez used the word he intended malicious hurt, yet now we are told that the word itself in Spanish can never ever have such associations.
to me that feels like it’s wrong if a Liverpool players but OK for a Manchester player.

FYI: IMO cavani was ignorant in this instance and didnt intend any malice, but that’s not an acceptable excuse.

That's not really the case though, Cavani used it as a term of endearment between friends.

Suarez used it during an argument and basically said he wouldn't speak to someone who was black. Even the enquiry stated the term itself was not racist, but the way he used it meant it to be.

If you think the two cases are in anyway similar you are being wilfully ignorant.

 

[sewey89]

Edinson Cavani has issued a sincere apology for a social media post after Sunday’s game against Southampton.

The Uruguayan striker said: “The message I posted after the match on Sunday was intended as an affectionate greeting to a friend, thanking him for his congratulations after the game. The last thing I wanted to do was cause offence to anyone. I am completely opposed to racism and deleted the message as soon as it was explained that it can be interpreted differently. I would like to sincerely apologise for this.”

In a statement, Manchester United said: “It is clear to us that there was absolutely no malicious intent behind Edinson’s message and he deleted it as soon as he was informed that it could be misconstrued. Edinson has issued an apology for any unintentional offence caused. Manchester United and all of our players are fully committed to the fight against racism.”

https://www.manutd.com/en/news/deta...issue-official-statements-over-instagram-post

Hopefully that's the end of it

 

[klayton88]

Get the t-shirts out (Said in Brent's "Get the guitar" voice)

 

[Cascarino]

Because 'some people' aren't knee jerk losers.

Cavani should be told to never post anything with that word again while in the UK. The idea though that this is some great scandal is just absurd.

I’m only seeing the Idea that this is some great scandal being propagated by the usual lot complaining about ‘cancel culture’ and ‘society gone soft’.

 

[rooney2009]

He has apologized so we can all move on..

 

[RepardReece]

That's insane. So in the instance that a friend publicly calls another friend the worst racial slang imaginable (which, clearly, Cavani did not), but the receiving friend is not offended, because they are friends and they banter like that all the time, no action is needed? Obviously, using that racial slur might be offensive to a lot of other people, and furthermore will normalise the use of said racial slur. It's crazy to say that no action is needed if the receiving party is not offended.

Yes, I agree with this, but the fact you're missing is that Cavani isn't saying it in a racial manner at all. Like many has said on this thread and Cavani himself, it means something completely different in Uruguayan, why punish someone for living in their own culture?

 

[Ludens the Red]

Suarez didn't use negrito.

Did he not? Wasn’t that the whole basis of his defence ?

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Yeah, you got it, we do it because we like to spend all day insulting our friends.

Is that you? "the South American poster"?

Why do people feel the need to label you? The irony?

 

[cyberman]

I’m only seeing the Idea that this is some great scandal being propagated by the usual lot complaining about ‘cancel culture’ and ‘society gone soft’.

You havent read the non Spanish speakers down playing their ignorance of other cultures as a grey area?

 

[carvajal]

The same as a white person in western society using the n word yet it is fully acceptable for rappers to use it in context. My wife's family often refer to me as "gwai lo" in Cantonese which literally means foreign devil or ghost man, but I don't take offence as it isn't meant offensively, it's just a language thing. If they called me "foreign devil" in English I would however be annoyed.

lovely mother-in-law

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Did he not? Wasn’t that the whole basis of his defence ?

It's in this thread a few times including copies of the court transcript.

Used negro... and with clear intent as to meaning.

 

[Oldyella]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date