He'll get the ban and fine obviously. Not much more to say about it. He obviously didn't mean it in a malicious way, but there's no getting around this sort of thing, especially in the current climate.
FA to investigate Edinson Cavani | This thread is taking a break
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
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Reading into it, it seems that the culture is different and not considered an insult. My only problem is that there is no way he doesn't know you can't do that in English culture
People who are not from South America and who have no experience of living in South America shouldn't be running this investigation. They are already wading in and showing their complete ignorance of cultural and linguistic differences between the UK/Europe and Latin America.
I lived in South America for ten years and negrito/negrita is commonplace there and is used as a form of endearment. It's extremely common within families, friendship groups, and workplaces for people to be nicknamed 'negrito/a', same as other people will be called, 'chinita', 'gordito/a', 'loco/loca', 'rubio/a' and whole host of other jokey nicknames. People wear these names on the back of their own local football shirts. They don't care because they know it is affectionate.
People call themselves by this name and it's accepted. It is, on the face of it, mildly insulting, but that's the point. Latin American culture permits people to make insults in a jovial way -- it's part of the way of life. Of course, you have to be on friendly terms with the person to do it, but clearly this is Cavani's friend.
There are no doubt cases where it can be used pejoratively but a six year old could tell that Cavani is simply responding to a friend here in a jovial manner.
I know that the Suarez case was clearly a case of racism but this is obviously not.
I lived in South America for ten years and negrito/negrita is commonplace there and is used as a form of endearment. It's extremely common within families, friendship groups, and workplaces for people to be nicknamed 'negrito/a', same as other people will be called, 'chinita', 'gordito/a', 'loco/loca', 'rubio/a' and whole host of other jokey nicknames. People wear these names on the back of their own local football shirts. They don't care because they know it is affectionate.
People call themselves by this name and it's accepted. It is, on the face of it, mildly insulting, but that's the point. Latin American culture permits people to make insults in a jovial way -- it's part of the way of life. Of course, you have to be on friendly terms with the person to do it, but clearly this is Cavani's friend.
There are no doubt cases where it can be used pejoratively but a six year old could tell that Cavani is simply responding to a friend here in a jovial manner.
I know that the Suarez case was clearly a case of racism but this is obviously not.
The shocking thing really is that he's spent so many years in Paris and he and PSG both have such global recognition, it must have been a minor miracle for this never to happen on their watch.
Basically yes, because once it's on Instagram he's not just saying it to his mates, he's shouting it out in front of his 7.8 million followers and it's not an English standard, it's an international standard.
To compare this to the Suarez/Evra incident, as some have is ridiculous, Suarez's comments were found to have been purposefully derogatory, Cavani's clearly are not. But Instagram is an international public platform and if people find it offensive, which I understand, then I'm afraid it needs to be called out and dealt with as publicly as it was posted. Cavani is not an idiot, if he had thought for just a moment about what he was writing he probably could and would have said something else.
I don't get it. He's saying thanks to the black shirt he wore? If that's it then people need to get the f**k over it and themselves.
Even if for the sake of argument we go with the assumption that Cavani used a racist term,
How does this come under the FA's jurisdiction? Not during a game, on the pitch, or anybFA regulated environment.
They surely shouldn't have a say in the personal lives and conversation between two friends completely independent of the FA ecosystem.
Thoughts?
How does this come under the FA's jurisdiction? Not during a game, on the pitch, or anybFA regulated environment.
They surely shouldn't have a say in the personal lives and conversation between two friends completely independent of the FA ecosystem.
Thoughts?
Have you considered re-introducing oranges into your relationship?
He'll be ok.
As some have said, if it was a conversation with a friend then they would have no jurisdiction , they wouldn't even know about it. But he said it publicly on IG and he has 7.8 million followers, so they would probably seeing it as brining the game into disrepute.
Do what, exactly? Speak in his language? It's far more straightforward than the culture being different, it's the language that is different. By bringing culture into this, some people will think the line of "defence" for Cavani is that his culture is more easy-going with racism - which it may be, or not, I wouldn't know, but this certainly is not a reflection of that.
If you overhear two Portuguese speaking in London about a black person they will be using the word negro unless they're racists, in which case they'll be using the word preto - the literal translation for the color black, but a pejorative term used mostly by the ones who still refuse to accept decolonization. That's how it is around here. Negro and preto are synonimous when refering to colors (with preto much more common in daily parlance), but if refering to race preto is an insult and negro is not.
Even though the issue here is the Spanish language, I think it's pretty analogous. It was discussed to death during the Suarez saga. I seem to remember him trying to use the defence of negro not being an insult in his language, which I thought was a decent defence if the issue was solely about the word use, which in his case it seemed it wasn't.
At the time I did imagine how easily a Portuguese with a basic understanding of English but no deep understanding of culture could be caught inadvertendly calling or refering to someone a "nigga/nigger" for wrongly assuming that, being a more similar word, it would also be the correct way to say it in English. I presume you're kind of hinting that Cavani should know this by now, but this is not a translation issue at all. He's not talking in English, he's probably not even thinking in English terms, which makes your assertion a bit ridiculous in my opinion. It seems many in this thread, and arguably in the FA and all over the webs, are just being ignorant.
Cavani already gave in by deleting the tweet, and in fact I wouldn't be surprised he ends up paying some kind of fine. Because we live in an increasingly stupid world, and it will be the simplest way to solve the "problem".
Sadly ironic that with racists running rampant, electing tyrants and voting for xenophobia in referenduns, people in positions of responsibility are stirring up innane discussions. This is isn't even about complex nuances, it's just stupid.
And multi-lingual, and English is not yet the official language of the world.
You're saying that because a significant number of people are thick enough to assume without looking that negro, a Spanish/Portuguese word, is the same as nigger, an English word, we need to call out on it? Give it a break.
There are two real points here
1) Anyone comparing it to Suarez is a moron at best, a racist looking to defend Suarez at worst. One thing is said to an adversary in an argument (and the word Suarez used was negro, not negrito), the other said to a friend.
2) The people defending Cavani are also morons. None of the arguments made in his defence are an excuse that amounts to anything more than ignorance. It doesn't matter what is acceptable in South America, what's acceptable in South America can still be wrong. Just because black people in South America have been exposed to this racially degrading language their entire lives and treat "my black friend" as a term of endearment because a backhanded compliment is still a compliment doesn't mean it's acceptable anymore than calling someone "my gay friend" would be. There are plenty of countries where the death penalty are still acceptable, it doesn't mean it is acceptable.
Qualifying or identifying your positive relationship with someone based on their race is racist, it just is. It's not an obvious or malicious form of racism but it's still not acceptable and we shouldn't allow it. Bernardo Silva got a 1 match ban for a similar offence (if slightly more obviously racist) and Cavani will likely get a similarly serious reprimand, deservedly so.
Hopefully he learns from this.
1) Anyone comparing it to Suarez is a moron at best, a racist looking to defend Suarez at worst. One thing is said to an adversary in an argument (and the word Suarez used was negro, not negrito), the other said to a friend.
2) The people defending Cavani are also morons. None of the arguments made in his defence are an excuse that amounts to anything more than ignorance. It doesn't matter what is acceptable in South America, what's acceptable in South America can still be wrong. Just because black people in South America have been exposed to this racially degrading language their entire lives and treat "my black friend" as a term of endearment because a backhanded compliment is still a compliment doesn't mean it's acceptable anymore than calling someone "my gay friend" would be. There are plenty of countries where the death penalty are still acceptable, it doesn't mean it is acceptable.
Qualifying or identifying your positive relationship with someone based on their race is racist, it just is. It's not an obvious or malicious form of racism but it's still not acceptable and we shouldn't allow it. Bernardo Silva got a 1 match ban for a similar offence (if slightly more obviously racist) and Cavani will likely get a similarly serious reprimand, deservedly so.
Hopefully he learns from this.
If Harry Maguire had posted "thank you my black friend" on instagram about a black fan he would be being investigated too. It's embarrassing that this is being dragged down to the idea that the problem is English speaking people are too dumb to understand that negrito isn't a synonym for nigger. That isn't the problem with what Cavani did.
He definitely needs to learn what is acceptable, and given the swift removal of his post, he likely has taken it onboard. But it's ridiculous to say that he's uneducated, particularly as he's living in a new country, and likely not familiar with the language and customs. Language is a tricky thing. My ex is Venezuelan and everybody in Venezuela uses the word 'coño', and it's not considered particularly offensive. So one day I was teaching a class with Spanish students in it and was bantering with them in a mixture of English and Spanish and said that word. My Spanish student was horrified, and let me know that I should never say that word (basically it's the Spanish C-word, which I had never realized before that.) I certainly don't think it was a problem of my being uneducated - I just didn't know. Anyway, I thanked her for telling me, and I've never said it again around anyone who isn't Venezuelan. Hopefully, it'll be the same for Cavani. I do think a 3 game ban is a bit harsh.
Do you even know if his friend his black? It may, or it may not be.
You want to ban a Spanish word from common use because it sounds relatively similar to an offensive word in English. That's not only indefensible from a logical point of view, it's also extremely patronizing for hundreds of millions of people.
How should we Portuguese do? Stop referring to black people all together? We can't use the word preto because we're not racists, we can't use the word negro because you think it's offensive. Perhaps we should create a new word to accomodate your anglo-centric sensibility.
It's obviously a very different situation than Suarez. Suarez, despite Liverpool and their mates in the media doing the best to convince people he used 'negrito', admitted once it went higher up that it was 'negro'. He also (more importantly) used it in a negative context, and kept using it when the victim made it very obvious he didn't like it. "Thank you negrito" is obviously very different than "I kicked you because you are negro" and "I don't talk to negros".
The comparison to Bernardo Silva is much more accurate (in reality Silva's was worse) and Cavani probably should get the same punishment. It wasn't meant negatively but it was stupid. Unfortunately the media is going to blow this up to being the same as Suarez and the FA will fold and give him a much worse punishment.
The comparison to Bernardo Silva is much more accurate (in reality Silva's was worse) and Cavani probably should get the same punishment. It wasn't meant negatively but it was stupid. Unfortunately the media is going to blow this up to being the same as Suarez and the FA will fold and give him a much worse punishment.
If Cavani doesn't accept he made a mistake and apologise then I think action should be taken in the form of a ban.
Pool fans comparing it to the Suarez incident would have a leg to stand on if Cavani said "I don't take compliments from negritos" and then in the warm up for our game against PSG the whole team had "justice for Eddy" t-shirts on.
Innocently Ignorant lost-in-translation turn of phrase worthy of apology: yes, without a doubt.
Maliciously racist insult said in the heat of a derby which was then defended by basically an entire football club: no.
Hopefully United's PR team can sort this out and put it in the past where it belongs
Pool fans comparing it to the Suarez incident would have a leg to stand on if Cavani said "I don't take compliments from negritos" and then in the warm up for our game against PSG the whole team had "justice for Eddy" t-shirts on.
Innocently Ignorant lost-in-translation turn of phrase worthy of apology: yes, without a doubt.
Maliciously racist insult said in the heat of a derby which was then defended by basically an entire football club: no.
Hopefully United's PR team can sort this out and put it in the past where it belongs
In a very sensitive thread, this has to be the most idiotic fecking post in here. Absolute shit.
As a black person, I would feel a way about anyone referring to me by my skin colour full stop.
Due to the nature of his public status, I think Cavani did the right thing and deleted the post. He shouldn’t be banned, just educated on the situation.
There is undeniable amounts of historical negativity towards black people in South America, especially the white South American countries and unfortunately very old mindsets are still at play in these countries.
As a player for a British club, he has to abide to British and Premier League standards and that includes not using terms that can be taken as being offensive.
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I disagree. I don't see how Cavani's act can be equated to racism even if non-malicious or ignorant. Silva used a racist and colonial era cartoon from marketing. You may want to diminish the seriousness of it by assuming it was actual ignorance, lack of sensitivity, not with malicious intent, etc. But it was definitely a stupid thing, and I find it undoubtedly racist.
Firstly, I must implore people not to compare this to the Suarez incident. Suarez used the word to Evra as an insult, while Cavani used the word how it is normally used in Uruguay, as a term of endearment. One is racist, the other is not. End of.
However, if for example Bernardo Silva got a ban for simply comparing Mendy to the character on the cereal box, which imo was just light-hearted banter, then I suppose in the name of consistency, Cavani will get a ban too. He shouldn’t though, as he used the term how it’s supposed to be used in Uruguay as a friendly way to address a good friend.
If the FA do fine and ban him though, then they are more racist than Cavani, who isn’t at all, for not embracing cultural differences in Cavani’s bloody home country. It had to be said.
However, if for example Bernardo Silva got a ban for simply comparing Mendy to the character on the cereal box, which imo was just light-hearted banter, then I suppose in the name of consistency, Cavani will get a ban too. He shouldn’t though, as he used the term how it’s supposed to be used in Uruguay as a friendly way to address a good friend.
If the FA do fine and ban him though, then they are more racist than Cavani, who isn’t at all, for not embracing cultural differences in Cavani’s bloody home country. It had to be said.
No. I want to ban people from qualifying their terms of endearment based on race. In all languages.
Or perhaps it's the context of the usage of those words that is problematic, not the words themselves? It's not rocket science to spot the difference between referring to black people in a generic sense and saying "thank you my black friend". Why would you need to qualify that your friend is black?
My point is that the term is not even used specifically for the race.
Edinson wasn’t bantering ffs. It is a term of endearment. The fact that he posted his mate’s congratulations on his own account shows that they are close friends, furthering the point that this word in Uruguay, weird as it may sound, is a good word to use to close friends.
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Not sure why I triggered such a response but thanks for the education on things I didn't know. With that being said, I do find it hard to believe that he didn't know that the English come down hard on that word. Not one ounce of me thinks he was being racist. But I'm also pretty sure that he would have known about his country man who got in trouble for using that word before. Mind you, I'm pretty sure Suarez probably said "f*cking" before the N Bomb and that takes it into a whole different territory
A good black friend. Now question why you would want to qualify a compliment by race and you start to see the problem.
Holy shit, please don't do this. It's fecking moronic. Not accepting something because it is acceptable in another country isn't racist. Would you be applying that appealing logic to countries where the working day is 18 hours long or where female genital mutilation is currently acceptable?
"Cultural differences" can range from choice of primary carbohydrate to whether you believe people of a certain ethnic group have a right to exist. It's not grounds to accept anything on its own.
A misinformed, shit analogy at the least, and a ban worthy post at most.
Do you have any idea how entitled and oppressive that idea is? I might even agree that there might be a benefit to that, I'll leave that to people who study racism and it's origins/consequences better than me. I certainly do not think that attitude is best.
Except he didn't say "thank you my black friend", you're the one making a literal translation.
I don't mean to say the color of his friend is relevant in deciding whether the expression is racist or not. Was just illustrating that it isn't necessarily a term of endearment "based on race". In Portuguese it's not a term of endearment at all, so there's that extra-complexity in the Spanish version of it.
We "ban" it in football already. I'm okay with it.
See below. How the word is used culturally doesn't give it a free pass.
And again you've missed the point that whether you use it towards a white person or a black person doesn't matter, using racially based terms of endearment has no place here. The word literally derives from "little black man", Spanish isn't short of synonyms for friend, using racially derived ones is a choice.
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You have to understand why we've developed the sensitivity right?
You didn't trigger it specifically, you were just the last post written before I replied with a common idea in the thread. Meant to adress the point at large, not you.
One might ask whether it's appropriate for you to have written that word out in full, rather than using the more generally accepted 'n-word'. I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here, but there have been recent examples of academics getting in trouble for even saying the word in the course of an academic discussion. A colleague at my work recently got in major trouble for quoting verbatim a Turkish student who used that word.
And what's the relevant of it's literal meaning? Stop doing litteral translations as they're innane and ridiculous. "Thank you my black friend", whether racist or not, is a ridiculous way of expression (think "thank you my tall [or whatever adjective] friend"), so you're already placing a bias in the way the phrase sound. "Little black man" already sounds far more demaning in English than negrito (or any other word ended in -ito) sounds in a latin language. "-ito" s far more complex than "little" or "small".
Language, meaning and culture are far more complex than google translate.
@Dion yourebdoing some excellent debating here. I can’t keep up but I agree with your posts
@Arruda I’ve studied/read about race specifically about black people as I am black and you need to look into the sociology of language involving black people and other minorities.
This is why words like “boy” when referring to a black person is deemed as demeaning in the US. These are cultural words that have existed for years and years and only today we have the research and understanding of what they mean and why they’re said.
Again Cavani has said this from a good place and not out of negativity. But the nature of black representation in South America (not this region only) and the pure fact you are referring to someone and differentiating them from someone else due to their skin colour (especially when you know their name) is problematic, especially when the skin colour you have ties back to slavery days. There’s more, but I’m on my phone and can’t type more.
A friend in a group was known as “Chinese Dave” even when we didn’t have another Dave in the group. But I said we can’t call him that, as it’s problematic. So this is an issue all over the place.
@Arruda I’ve studied/read about race specifically about black people as I am black and you need to look into the sociology of language involving black people and other minorities.
This is why words like “boy” when referring to a black person is deemed as demeaning in the US. These are cultural words that have existed for years and years and only today we have the research and understanding of what they mean and why they’re said.
Again Cavani has said this from a good place and not out of negativity. But the nature of black representation in South America (not this region only) and the pure fact you are referring to someone and differentiating them from someone else due to their skin colour (especially when you know their name) is problematic, especially when the skin colour you have ties back to slavery days. There’s more, but I’m on my phone and can’t type more.
A friend in a group was known as “Chinese Dave” even when we didn’t have another Dave in the group. But I said we can’t call him that, as it’s problematic. So this is an issue all over the place.
I work in academia, when discussing the word itself it's spelled out in full, when discussing usages of the word it's contracted to avoid repeating it in that context. I'm sure Redcafe have a stance on the word, but if they were against it being spelled out in an academic discussion I suggest it be added to the profanity filter.
As a latino who has been living in central, south and north America ( Mexico) as well as Spain. I can tell you there is a lot of ignorance in this thread. But what's even worse there is a lot of arrogance and egos from some english speakers, who have the nerve to try to tell us latinos that we are in the wrong because they are getting offended by a word that has been taken completely out of context and to add insult to injury completely mistranslated and given a meaning it doesn't have. For the sake of examples what Cavani said would be the equivalent of calling a tall person lanky.
the argument becomes even more stupid when you realize cavani's friend called him "matadaor" which means Killer in spanish. Now ask yourselves, does he really mean that? Of course he doesn't its a term of endearment, an that where it should end.
the argument becomes even more stupid when you realize cavani's friend called him "matadaor" which means Killer in spanish. Now ask yourselves, does he really mean that? Of course he doesn't its a term of endearment, an that where it should end.
Another one to add to a long list of shit analogies in this thread. You just compared hard labour and genital mutilation to what is essentially a term of endearment in Cavani’s home country. Well fecking done pal
This is as bad as the guy in page 10 calling Jews stingy.Anyway, to address your first point, I do not know why Uruguayans and South Americans in general compliment black friends with the word negrito. Naturally, I do not agree with it due to the history of the word. However, Cavani is one in 432 million people who use this word without repercussions. Most likely, considering he’s just come, he doesn’t even know the word is frowned upon in England. In fact, his perception of England could be that it is a racist country considering one of the few times he’s come over with PSG, a black man got pushed off the metro by Chelsea fans. Because he likely used it a few times in Italy and France without consequences, he could believe that England is a bloody free-for-all. Again, it’s wrong but it’s possible.
Indeed, your last point is the key here.
I'm sure culturally "little black man" does sound far less demeaning than in English, but that doesn't mean that it's acceptable to use compliments which are derived from explicit racial references (note here, racial, not racist). Culturally there is no reason for us to accept those anymore, they serve no purpose other than to ingrain the idea that being black is/was somehow a fact that was worthy of attention being drawn to it when offering someone a compliment. That it is now more liberally used is a bad thing, not a good thing and as some Spanish speaking people have said in this thread already, even when not used towards black people it's still predominantly used towards people with darker skin.
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