Fans who were against today's protests

Gasolin

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Well perhaps you can protest without really making it clear what your expectation is but it is less likely to have any effect.

Even as a fan I struggle to really figure out what an acceptable way out of our current situation would be for fans. Would investing $500m in facilities and another $500m in the squad be fine? Would transferring the debt to personal assets rather than club assets be sufficient? Would selling the club to Saudis for $4bn resolve this mess? I understand the unhappiness, know where it’s coming from and get this part of the message. I just think this isn’t enough.
I agree it's complicated.
I liked what MUST put out. I don't think it will result in some kind of response, but if it does, it's a great starting point.
Of course, I think they are asking for more than what the Glazers would accept, maybe to get as much concession as possible.

https://www.imust.org.uk/Blog/Entry...-night-before-and-a-way-forward-for-all-of-us
 

gerdm07

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The glazers have taken 2 billion pounds out of the club.
I'm not sure if that's totally true. I know they did some bonds to draw down the debt and they went public to raise funds. Again, if they did something so horrendous like taking out 2 billion pounds don't you think SAF would have said something? Did he? I don't remember anything like that.

I trust SAF's judgement and if he hasn't said anything really bad about the Glazers than I accept they are decent owners. I admit, though, I don't follow the owner stories very much.
 

Bertie Wooster

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Absolutely. I agree the glazers are leeching cnuts and protesting that is great. If it results in fans getting a greater say in the club then brilliant. What I disagree with is the undertone on this place that anyone who thinks the team they support being relegated/docked points is a bad thing and a glazer stooge. People who openly admit they’re a bit disappointed they couldn’t watch the team they love play today - and worry about how it impacts the players and Ole - are being mocked for not being true fans. It’s all a touch surreal in fairness - hating the Glazers is now more important for some than supporting the team. Some in favour on here are the same people who moan about Sancho and us not spending billions each summer yet want all our sponsors to pull out. I’d just love to know what the end goal of burning the whole thing down is and nobody can tell me - other than Glazer Out. It just seems like a bit of a mob mentality forming to be honest and seeing thugs jumping on cars cutting policemen already doesn’t really inspire confidence that this will lead anywhere other than creating huge disunity amongst fans and the club thus setting the team I love back just when we’re finally getting our shit together - at a time when I feel we have a very likeable squad and manager who I personally can emotionally connect with for the first time in a decade.

To me - rather than stopping games and punishing our players - Westminster is the obvious place where change can actually happen. These clubs are community assets and rules need to be in place designating that and limiting what owners can do. I think BBC headlines about police being attacked sets that cause back. But there we are - maybe I’m missing something and today will turn out to be a great day after all - maybe a sale will be announced tomorrow to some philanthropist billionaire - but personally I just see it escalating from here and getting very nasty. Some will love that as ultimately it may devalue the club enough to force a sale but for me it’ll just be a case of the emperors new clothes - we’ll fall even further behind as a club with Ole and the players used as collateral damage. Hopefully I’m wrong.
Completely agree with all that.
 

2mufc0

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This 2bn figure doesn't seem legit, would be good to see some sources on this.
 

Gasolin

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I'm not sure if that's totally true. I know they did some bonds to draw down the debt and they went public to raise funds. Again, if they did something so horrendous like taking out 2 billion pounds don't you think SAF would have said something? Did he? I don't remember anything like that.

I trust SAF's judgement and if he hasn't said anything really bad about the Glazers than I accept they are decent owners. I admit, though, I don't follow the owner stories very much.
The calculation is a bit weird, but the majority of what they "took" was basically to use 50% of our revenue to pay for the interest of that LBO based debt that was nonexistent for us. So in a way, it's a lot of money that could have been used to not pay the debt and do something else. Potentially, strengthen the team.

I guess that's a way to look at things.
 

JakeC

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Absolutely. I agree the glazers are leeching cnuts and protesting that is great. If it results in fans getting a greater say in the club then brilliant. What I disagree with is the undertone on this place that anyone who thinks the team they support being relegated/docked points is a bad thing and a glazer stooge. People who openly admit they’re a bit disappointed they couldn’t watch the team they love play today - and worry about how it impacts the players and Ole - are being mocked for not being true fans. It’s all a touch surreal in fairness - hating the Glazers is now more important for some than supporting the team. Some in favour on here are the same people who moan about Sancho and us not spending billions each summer yet want all our sponsors to pull out. I’d just love to know what the end goal of burning the whole thing down is and nobody can tell me - other than Glazer Out. It just seems like a bit of a mob mentality forming to be honest and seeing thugs jumping on cars cutting policemen already doesn’t really inspire confidence that this will lead anywhere other than creating huge disunity amongst fans and the club thus setting the team I love back just when we’re finally getting our shit together - at a time when I feel we have a very likeable squad and manager who I personally can emotionally connect with for the first time in a decade.

To me - rather than stopping games and punishing our players - Westminster is the obvious place where change can actually happen. These clubs are community assets and rules need to be in place designating that and limiting what owners can do. I think BBC headlines about police being attacked sets that cause back. But there we are - maybe I’m missing something and today will turn out to be a great day after all - maybe a sale will be announced tomorrow to some philanthropist billionaire - but personally I just see it escalating from here and getting very nasty. Some will love that as ultimately it may devalue the club enough to force a sale but for me it’ll just be a case of the emperors new clothes - we’ll fall even further behind as a club with Ole and the players used as collateral damage. Hopefully I’m wrong.
There is absolutely nobody defending the scumbags who threw the bottle, but reducing an entire protest to one thug is willful ignorance at best.

This protest has been coming for 16 years, its hardly as if the fans just decided arbitrarily that this was the correct course of action. Dozens of other steps that have all been rebuked and ignored have lead up to this.

If you want to write to Westminster, a chamber occupied mostly by millionaires who have a lot more in common with The Glazers and other holders of capital than they do with the people who have been going to Old Trafford for generations, go right ahead.

Direct action works, the fact that some of us were slightly inconvenienced pales in comparison to the abject feeling of fury that people are feeling right now towards a bunch of parasites who was bled the club dry for the last 16 years.

The players will survive.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

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I didn't suggest an idea of "stop watching football". You did so I assumed you were fine with it.
There are plenty who have stopped watching United since the Glazers took over. Think that's made an iota of difference to them? And to do make that successful at a large scale, do you think it's feasible?

Ever tried getting 10 of your mates together on time for an event successfully? If you get that, you will understand how insane it is to suggest to pull off a large scale agitation to stop watching United games.

As for your last line about fans being the worst part of football, I agree with it after reading your posts.
Yet you support getting a few hundred fans together to disrupt matches. Unless you plan on doing it every game week, the protest yesterday was useless.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

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You've been embarrassing yourself for 24 hours now. Have a breather.
Because a one off protest at the ground apparently got "the Glazers attention" and will make a massive impact on them. I'm sure this will change everything.

Delusional.
 

Tom Van Persie

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I'm not sure if that's totally true. I know they did some bonds to draw down the debt and they went public to raise funds. Again, if they did something so horrendous like taking out 2 billion pounds don't you think SAF would have said something? Did he? I don't remember anything like that.

I trust SAF's judgement and if he hasn't said anything really bad about the Glazers than I accept they are decent owners. I admit, though, I don't follow the owner stories very much.
That's the funny thing, there's not many who have worked for United that have a bad word to say about the Glazers. Carrick even praised them in his book a few years ago. Evra defended them when he was talking about Woodward and Judge.
 

Norman Brownbutter

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Just a question, do you believe in the power of protest?
That kinda depends on who is listening, no? Protest is great for making your feelings heard to someone that might not be able to hear you any other way. But if your target audience are cnuts, its really hard to see where the power is. Its even less powerful when the target audience is on the other side of the Atlantic. Lots of people talking about it, sure. But in the end, what exactly has been achieved? The Glazers dont care, and apart from some nothing public statement saying "we hear you". Nothing is going to change. The only way to get their attention in their wallet. So not buying man utd merch, tickets, shirts, etc etc> protest. Every day of the week.
 

Rightnr

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You have to love some of the 'fans' on here challenging the 2bn number based on it 'not seeming right', exposing a clear bias and a general lack of knowledge in the field.

If you take 5 minutes and read around this forum you'll find how people got to that number. The Sky guy even explained it today, for one.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

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Honestly, you sound like you also believe in fairy tales and Santa Clause based on your understanding of protests and their effectiveness.
No, you're the one believing in these myths, that 200 people breaking stuff in a stadium will make our owners sell.

The protest outside, great. The invading the pitch. Yobs behaviour.
 

DoomSlayer

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Most people against protests are those that see them as an "inconvenience". And they are one of the main reasons why protests have to go over being peaceful if you want any sort of reaction, because people simply don't care if they aren't properly inconvenienced.
 

Sky1981

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This is the photo that has been distributed a lot around twitter. Obviously I don’t know how accurate it is.

This is a laughing stock of a number list. So many blatant error and stupid accounting

1. CEO wages? So other clubs don't pay their CEO wages?
2. Ronaldo fee? cluthing straws, so Pogba purchase = income?
3. Most of the numbers are double counted. If I borrow 10M, took out 10M to pay the debt, the amount of money I took out from the club is 10M, not 10M+10M =20M
4. How can a Debt of 450M accrued an Interest of 850M?
5. Share sales? It's not taken from the club, one of the glazers sold their personal shares, they don't take the money from the club.

Stop peddling this nonsense, it's embarrassing.

The amount of money glazer took out from the club is simply :

Dividend + loan repayment. You can take an average of "normal divident" taken from average of 20 clubs, and indicates how much more above parity the glazer took out. That's about it.
 
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Sandikan

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This is the photo that has been distributed a lot around twitter. Obviously I don’t know how accurate it is.


Obviously the Glazers have taken a lot out of United, but that is just ludicrous propaganda.
For starters, how can the £85m Ronaldo fee (wasn't it 80 just for starters?) be a separate line, when you have both debt and interest as other lines?.

Debt/Share sales/Interest can't possibly be those 3 astronomic sums either. They will all be linked with each other.

How can they have taken 2billion out of something they bought worth 1billion?
 

Sandikan

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This is a laughing stock of a number list.

CEO wages? So other clubs don't pay their CEO wages?
Ronaldo fee? cluthing straws
Those are counted doubles.

If I borrow 10M, took out 10M to pay the debt, the amount of money I took out from the club is 10M, not 10M+10M =20M

Debt 450M. Interest 850M?

Share sales? It's not taken from the club, one of the glazers sold their personal shares, they don't take the money from the club.
Yep, this nonsense doesn't help anyone.
Stick to the actual facts.

How much debt they've taken us from and to.
How much they've paid to themselves and other shareholders each year
How little net spend we've spent on transfers in comparison.

That's enough of a story without double and triple accounting stuff.
 

DoomSlayer

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@Sky1981 and @Sandikan proving with every post how bad they are at interpreting financial data or having any knowledge of how debt works. :lol: Poor contrarian souls, always fighting the good fight.

It's funny how you two lads can't grasp very simplistic concepts. Don't even try and ask me to explain them to you, there is no hope for any one of you.
 
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Sky1981

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You have to love some of the 'fans' on here challenging the 2bn number based on it 'not seeming right', exposing a clear bias and a general lack of knowledge in the field.

If you take 5 minutes and read around this forum you'll find how people got to that number. The Sky guy even explained it today, for one.
Oh the irony, lack of knowledge in this field.

Seriously... take those to any credible accountant and they'll laugh you off your arses
 

Sky1981

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@Sky1981 and @Sandikan proving with every post how bad they are at interpreting financial data or having any knowledge of how debt works. :lol: Poor contrarian souls, always fighting the good fight. L

It's funny how you two lads can't grasp very simplistic concepts. Don't even try and ask me to explain them to you, there is no hope for any one of you.
I'm quoting this for posterity. Gotta love the irony "Bad at interpreting financial data, or having no knowledge of how debts work"
 
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macheda14

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No, you're the one believing in these myths, that 200 people breaking stuff in a stadium will make our owners sell.

The protest outside, great. The invading the pitch. Yobs behaviour.
I think people are pretty much widely condemning the ‘yob behaviour’. So I don’t really get your point.

However through history we’ve only ever really seen protests enact change when there has been a minority led more aggressive arm. Suffragists vs Suffragette. MLK vs Malcolm X. That’s obviously quite a reductionist way to look at things. But yesterday if the protest had just gone on outside with no hassle and the game was played, well then who cares. Not saying the Glazers will care much now, but it’s garnering much much more coverage than it would have. Just look at how the Arsenal protests got maybe a minute of coverage and then n

Who’s to say fans don’t do it again? If there becomes a concerted effort to actually impact the ability on matches being played and therefore decrease tv revenue well then there we go.

You think that we should all stop watching the games as a means of protest. But unfortunately that is never going to happen. Most fans are fair-weather Glazer protesters. They’ll say how they dislike the ownership but still watch the matches and probably buy the shirts. How many people do you think will make a social media post about how they won’t watch the United - Liverpool game and once they put their phones down switch the tv on. Shit tons.

Physical protest is the only real means of 1, visualising the mass discontent - people not watching a match will not really have the same sensationalist coverage. 2, standing together in defiance and proving your commitment to the cause. 3, actually have any material impact on the club.

I don’t condone the bottle throwing at the police, I don’t condone making staff feel unsafe, I don’t condone breaching the players dressing rooms and breaking the Covid protocol, I don’t condone the minimal amount of masks on display. I do not give a shit that some doors were broken and some of sky’s camera tripods were chucked about. I do condone moving into the stadium. I do condone impacting the ability for the game to be played.

Yesterday was millions of fans hating the Glazers, hundreds of thousands wishing they were there, thousands turning up to protest, hundreds breaking into Old Trafford and tens really overstepping the mark and then you being a little jobsworth.
 

Sky1981

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Let me illustrate how stupid that graph sounds.

I bought a house on mortage for 10M
1. Debt to bank 10M
2. Interest 20M
3. I rented the room for 1M over 5 years
4. I rented another room for 2M over 5 years
5. Utilities over 5 years 500k
6. One time Xmas lavish decoration 500k
7. Sold parts of the house for 10M profit

my 10M house actually worth 50M
 

Rightnr

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Oh the irony, lack of knowledge in this field.

Seriously... take those to any credible accountant and they'll laugh you off your arses
You do know accounting is about making up numbers, right? Or rather massaging them so they look 'correct' in the report?

No? Thought so.
 

DoomSlayer

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Let me illustrate how stupid that graph sounds.

I bought a house on mortage for 10M
1. Debt to bank 10M
2. Interest 20M
3. I rented the room for 1M over 5 years
4. I rented another room for 2M over 5 years
5. Utilities over 5 years 500k
6. One time Xmas lavish decoration 500k
7. Sold parts of the house for 10M profit

my 10M house actually worth 50M
So you are comparing Manchester United to a house? I don't think I need any more evidence of how pointless debating you would be.
 

DoomSlayer

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You do know accounting is about making up numbers, right? Or rather massaging them so they look 'correct' in the report?

No? Thought so.
No, no, accounting is a precious and honorable science in itself. And the Glazers are just some nice family, that just want to use their fortune to further the cause of sports and the betterment of the local communities. :drool:
 

MU655

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This is the photo that has been distributed a lot around twitter. Obviously I don’t know how accurate it is.

Money from share sales isn't taking money out of the club. Whoever made this doesn't understand shares.

Also, why is Woodward's wage there. It is hardly a surprise that a CEO gets paid loads of money. But again, that isn't the Glazers taking money out of the club.
 

Sandikan

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@Sky1981 and @Sandikan proving with every post how bad they are at interpreting financial data or having any knowledge of how debt works. :lol: Poor contrarian souls, always fighting the good fight.

It's funny how you two lads can't grasp very simplistic concepts. Don't even try and ask me to explain them to you, there is no hope for any one of you.
The irony police are on their way to you.

You're consistently one of the worst posters on here.

Those figures even have the fees we pay the likes of Woodward for goodness sake. Like any other club doesn't pay their staff!
And how is selling shares taking money out of the club?