Fans who were against today's protests

Josep Dowling

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This is the photo that has been distributed a lot around twitter. Obviously I don’t know how accurate it is.

Some fairly obvious double counting in that. If the Ronaldo transfer fee paid off debt that would already be included in the debt figure in point 1.

I don’t know why the sale of shares would be included in these calculations as that is their capital investment and doesn’t affect the club. The club would effectively get back that money from a new shareholder.

Point 7 mentions a special dividend. Surely that’s already included under the dividends in point 4.

Why include payments to Woodward as if other chief executive wouldn’t be paid a few million in wages?

It’s no defence of the Glazers but those figures are utter rubbish. The number is more like half that, which is still a crazy amount of money.
 

DoomSlayer

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The irony police are on their way to you.

You're consistently one of the worst posters on here.

Those figures even have the fees we pay the likes of Woodward for goodness sake. Like any other club doesn't pay their staff!
And how is selling shares taking money out of the club?
Tell me, how does it feel to know you are on the side of some American parasite owners, going against the local community in Manchester, without which our beloved club wouldn't exist?

Good to know that I'm a "bad" poster in your book, I take it as a compliment.
 

Sandikan

aka sex on the beach
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Tell me, how does it feel to know you are on the side of some American parasite owners, going against the local community in Manchester, without which our beloved club wouldn't exist?

Good to know that I'm a "bad" poster in your book, I take it as a compliment.
The amount of money they've taken out is a lot, the debt they've saddled us with, is a lot.

Making silly sky high propanda charts doesn't do any good to anyone, as it can be instantly dismissed as nonsense.
 

Sandikan

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Some fairly obvious double counting in that. If the Ronaldo transfer fee paid off debt that would already be included in the debt figure in point 1.

I don’t know why the sale of shares would be included in these calculations as that is their capital investment and doesn’t affect the club. The club would effectively get back that money from a new shareholder.

Point 7 mentions a special dividend. Surely that’s already included under the dividends in point 4.

Why include payments to Woodward as if other chief executive wouldn’t be paid a few million in wages?

It’s no defence of the Glazers but those figures are utter rubbish. The number is more like half that, which is still a crazy amount of money.
Exactly this all round.
Getting the Ronaldo fee wrong just adds to the farce too.
 

DoomSlayer

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The amount of money they've taken out is a lot, the debt they've saddled us with, is a lot.

Making silly sky high propanda charts doesn't do any good to anyone, as it can be instantly dismissed as nonsense.
Maybe you should try doing something to help first? Then see how easy it is and criticise people for spreading information, whether it's wrong or right.
 

Sandikan

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Maybe you should try doing something to help first? Then see how easy it is and criticise people for spreading information, whether it's wrong or right.
The Glazers will sell when it suits them.
DoomSlayer and Sandikan off the internet hanging about in a mob in Manchester won't change anything. Not for the positive anyway.
 

Sarni

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@Sky1981 and @Sandikan proving with every post how bad they are at interpreting financial data or having any knowledge of how debt works. :lol: Poor contrarian souls, always fighting the good fight.

It's funny how you two lads can't grasp very simplistic concepts. Don't even try and ask me to explain them to you, there is no hope for any one of you.
To be honest, as someone who actually makes a living interpreting financial data, I don’t think it’s them who lack understanding. That set of numbers is just incoherent and not how you should estimate ‘money taken out of the club’.
 

DoomSlayer

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The Glazers will sell when it suits them.
DoomSlayer and Sandikan off the internet hanging about in a mob in Manchester won't change anything. Not for the positive anyway.
:lol: Mate, you may as well just delete your RedCafe account with takes like these.

What's the point in anything if this is your mindset? And you have the gall to judge what other people are doing? Are you just annoyed because your afternoon was ruined???
 

FatTails

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That graphic with the numbers is beyond embarrassing. I know financial literacy is low generally, but how can anyone look at that and take it seriously? :lol:

Not defending the Glazers or saying they didn’t “take money out of the club”, but exaggerating the figures like that, in such an obviously disprovable way, makes the fan base a laughing stock.
 

Sarni

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You do know accounting is about making up numbers, right? Or rather massaging them so they look 'correct' in the report?

No? Thought so.
Not really. It’s the opposite.
 

DoomSlayer

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That graphic with the numbers is beyond embarrassing. I know financial literacy is low generally, but how can anyone look at that and take it seriously? :lol:

Not defending the Glazers or saying they didn’t “take money out of the club”, but exaggerating the figures like that, in such an obviously disprovable way, makes the fan base a laughing stock.
Make a better one then. This is a call to all the financial geniuses and gurus on the Caf. Make a more genuine analysis and share it with the rest. Let's see the real numbers.
 

Sandikan

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:lol: Mate, you may as well just delete your RedCafe account with takes like these.

What's the point in anything if this is your mindset? And you have the gall to judge what other people are doing? Are you just annoyed because your afternoon was ruined???
And what are you doing from the beautiful land of Bulgaria?
A few angry posts on redcafe? That helps does it?
 

Sandikan

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To be honest, as someone who actually makes a living interpreting financial data, I don’t think it’s them who lack understanding. That set of numbers is just incoherent and not how you should estimate ‘money taken out of the club’.
He knows. He's the biggest wind up merchant on the cafe and a definite "ignore poster" job I think.
 

DoomSlayer

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And what are you doing from the beautiful land of Bulgaria?
A few angry posts on redcafe? That helps does it?
I'm fully supporting those that actually are doing something! From my part, I haven't paid for any official merchandise since Berbatov was at the club. I don't pay to watch the games, I have unsubscribed from any official Manchester United social media account.

If I was at Manchester, I would be right up there protesting and doing my best. But since I'm not, I won't be an arrogant twat and look down on those that can and are doing something.
 

DoomSlayer

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He knows. He's the biggest wind up merchant on the cafe and a definite "ignore poster" job I think.
As I said, anything negative from you, I take as a compliment. After all, a boot licker and a shill of the owners having a bad opinion about me means that at least my mindset and approach is appropriate.
 

Tallis

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Sorry - what’s the point of doing the protest when the team is actually on the ascendancy ? We will likely be in the Europa final and had a good chance to finish 2nd. Could be one of our strongest season since Fergie retired. We also have a bunch of good young players that will improve the team in the next few years.

Shouldn’t we have been doing this when we were getting battered under Mourinho etc ?
 

FatTails

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Make a better one then. This is a call to all the financial geniuses and gurus on the Caf. Make a more genuine analysis and share it with the rest. Let's see the real numbers.
There are two numbers that matter:
  • the debt they took on for the leveraged buyout which went on the club’s books, when the club was debt-free before that. Debt, in and of itself, is not the devil. Businesses take on debt to grow, and the Glazers could point to our ballooning revenues as successful strategy. The counter to that is that we probably would’ve been poised to grow our revenues anyway, without the debt (i.e it would be hard for them to argue that the debt helped us grow)
  • The interest to service the debt.

I’d have to double check these numbers when I am not on my phone (the interest being about double the debt seems fishy), but if we believe the graphic, they’d be the first two numbers, which would still amount to over 1.2 billion. That could’ve gone to stadium improvements, transfers, setting up a bigger global footprints with worldwide football academies…

Again, I am not here to defend them, nor am I in love with our debt, I just don’t want to see misinformation take away from the credible criticisms we have against them.
 

2mufc0

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Make a better one then. This is a call to all the financial geniuses and gurus on the Caf. Make a more genuine analysis and share it with the rest. Let's see the real numbers.
I don't see why you're getting your knickers in a twist, there are damning figures to show up the Glazers and how they have saddled us with debt, but using BS figures and lies doesn't help the cause.

Just accept you were wrong about the chart and move on. But I know how egos are on the Internet.
 

Longshanks

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This is a laughing stock of a number list. So many blatant error and stupid accounting

1. CEO wages? So other clubs don't pay their CEO wages?
2. Ronaldo fee? cluthing straws, so Pogba purchase = income?
3. Most of the numbers are double counted. If I borrow 10M, took out 10M to pay the debt, the amount of money I took out from the club is 10M, not 10M+10M =20M
4. How can a Debt of 450M accrued an Interest of 850M?
5. Share sales? It's not taken from the club, one of the glazers sold their personal shares, they don't take the money from the club.

Stop peddling this nonsense, it's embarrassing.

The interest is 854 million over 16 years, that's about 50 million a year for the privilege of the glazers massive loan that they bought us with and that's just the interest they havent paid the loan off any profits go straight into there coffers and the debt remains.

What the glazers have done in terms of the commercial side of the buisness is excellent and we make an awful lot of non football money, unfortunately that money gets spent paying the interest on a loan the glazers have no intention of paying back.

The glazers have spent considerable sums of the clubs profit on the playing squad, it's not that money hasnt been spent, it's that alot more should of been invested back into the football side of the buisness or at the very least used to clear the debt.

While the Glazers can sit pretty invest nothing and pay the interest with the clubs profits and give themselves a tidy wage for it nothing will change.

Despite that the protests must continue
And the protest have to be more than just banners and #, they must be direct action to disrupt the normal flow to keep the pressure up.
 

Summit

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Sorry - what’s the point of doing the protest when the team is actually on the ascendancy ? We will likely be in the Europa final and had a good chance to finish 2nd. Could be one of our strongest season since Fergie retired. We also have a bunch of good young players that will improve the team in the next few years.

Shouldn’t we have been doing this when we were getting battered under Mourinho etc ?
Hahah you just fecked up. Using the word 'your' to describe a team you suppose to support. Luckily you spotted it and changed it to 'our'.
 

Utd heap

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Sorry - what’s the point of doing the protest when the team is actually on the ascendancy ? We will likely be in the Europa final and had a good chance to finish 2nd. Could be one of our strongest season since Fergie retired. We also have a bunch of good young players that will improve the team in the next few years.

Shouldn’t we have been doing this when we were getting battered under Mourinho etc ?
Do some reading up on this mate FFS.
 

crossy1686

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How do fans drive a stronger message?? I'm not going to be facetious I would genuinely like to know.
I wasn't against the protests but I think the fans targeting the sponsors of United would see an immediate response from the Glazers. Once Kohler or Team Viewer pull out of their agreements because 1,000 fans turned up to their offices with flares you will see immediate action
 

DoomSlayer

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I don't see why you're getting your knickers in a twist, there are damning figures to show up the Glazers and how they have saddled us with debt, but using BS figures and lies doesn't help the cause.

Just accept you were wrong about the chart and move on. But I know how egos are on the Internet.
Why should I accept being wrong, when nobody has provided evidence to back their claims of these sort of graphics about the Glazers being false? We all want to se the real numbers, the geniuses that look down upon us should do their bit for once and provide with some proper analysis.
 

Utd heap

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I wasn't against the protests but I think the fans targeting the sponsors of United would see an immediate response from the Glazers. Once Kohler or Team Viewer pull out of their agreements because 1,000 fans turned up to their offices with flares you will see immediate action
Give us a few more weeks mate :)
 

M15 Red.

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The Glazers will sell when it suits them.
DoomSlayer and Sandikan off the internet hanging about in a mob in Manchester won't change anything. Not for the positive anyway.
You can't know this for sure. At this stage, even getting the Glazers to acknowledge the frustrations of the supporters and open up a dialogue would be a start. I take it you wouldn't have turned up if you'd have been in Manchester yesterday, and that's fine. But please don't play down or pretend to know the impact of those who did.
 

Norman Brownbutter

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That hasn't worked so far. Any other smart suggestions, captain Obvious?
that’s because we aren’t doing it. Whoops. There I go stating the obvious again. Look, I know you’re all riled up on the back of what other people have done. And you think youre a big hard man. But it’s time to calm down. Being antagonist towards everyone that disagrees with you doesn’t make you more right. It just makes you look like a prick that isn’t worth anyone’s time to converse with.

If you think violence is going to take this anywhere good, well there’s not really much I can do for you here. Unless you’re going to take the violence as far as it can go, which you won’t, it’s pointless starting it. And starting violence over a football clubs ownership in the first place instantly makes you the idiot. If it’s not obvious by now, the main focus of yesterday isnt on the shitty ownership. It’s the pricks who are the focus. The dumb fecking cnut who that slashing a copper was a good way to go is the focus.

Look at what the Chelsea fans did the other week, and then contrast that with our shambles yesterday. That is how you protest and keep the conversation on the topic.
 

Mr Anderson

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I was very apprehensive at first. It felt like it went too hot too soon, barricading in the team at the hotel and getting into the ground. To me it meant potentially harming future protests, Empowering the board to encode restrictions around OT. We NEED sustainable protests, not a once off.

but it transpired my fears were eased as it was largely very successful, with those who spoke to Carragher and Neville coming across well. Great debate on tv about it.

keep the efforts going and the conversation to the forefront. Glazers no longer “squeaky clean” to those outside of the United fan base.
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

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This is a laughing stock of a number list. So many blatant error and stupid accounting

1. CEO wages? So other clubs don't pay their CEO wages?
2. Ronaldo fee? cluthing straws, so Pogba purchase = income?
3. Most of the numbers are double counted. If I borrow 10M, took out 10M to pay the debt, the amount of money I took out from the club is 10M, not 10M+10M =20M
4. How can a Debt of 450M accrued an Interest of 850M?
5. Share sales? It's not taken from the club, one of the glazers sold their personal shares, they don't take the money from the club.

Stop peddling this nonsense, it's embarrassing.

The amount of money glazer took out from the club is simply :

Dividend + loan repayment. You can take an average of "normal divident" taken from average of 20 clubs, and indicates how much more above parity the glazer took out. That's about it.
I didn’t make the photo, and I did say I don’t know how accurate it is. It’s just the one that’s doing the rounds.

What are your thoughts on the glazers? Just wondering? Are you just playing “devils advocate” or do you believe they aren’t as bad as perceived?
 

Rightnr

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I was very apprehensive at first. It felt like it went too hot too soon, barricading in the team at the hotel and getting into the ground. To me it meant potentially harming future protests, Empowering the board to encode restrictions around OT. We NEED sustainable protests, not a once off.

but it transpired my fears were eased as it was largely very successful, with those who spoke to Carragher and Neville coming across well. Great debate on tv about it.

keep the efforts going and the conversation to the forefront. Glazers no longer “squeaky clean” to those outside of the United fan base.
Welcome back to the light, Mr Anderson. It's good to see people who have changed their opinion based on what was achieved yesterday.

We constantly argue here that results are what matters in football, so it's strange to me that people ignore this way of thinking when it comes to curing the Glazer plague.
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

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Sorry - what’s the point of doing the protest when the team is actually on the ascendancy ? We will likely be in the Europa final and had a good chance to finish 2nd. Could be one of our strongest season since Fergie retired. We also have a bunch of good young players that will improve the team in the next few years.

Shouldn’t we have been doing this when we were getting battered under Mourinho etc ?
You can’t be serious?
 

Crustanoid

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North West tonight. Top story was about the police man and the fan who assaulted him. The protest was mentioned as a subsidiary story.
BBC 5 Live. Each news bulletin they say that the protest was about the club trying to go into the super league rather than the owners. This feels like a deliberate coverup.
 

Cheimoon

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Sorry - what’s the point of doing the protest when the team is actually on the ascendancy ? We will likely be in the Europa final and had a good chance to finish 2nd. Could be one of our strongest season since Fergie retired. We also have a bunch of good young players that will improve the team in the next few years.

Shouldn’t we have been doing this when we were getting battered under Mourinho etc ?
I think it's actually much stronger to protest when the club is doing well on the pitch. It's not like the Glazers have changed their approach to United from one year to the next since Ferguson left. So if you weren't happy with them when things were going poorly, and you're happy now things are looking up, then your issue is not actually with them, but with the people running the football side of the club back in the club's offices. I mean, it's not like the Glazers hired Ole, or bought Lukaku, or fired Mourinho too late, or bought Bruno, or whatever good and bad footballing decisions have been taken in recent years.

I anyway feel this has been conflated in a lot of the discussion. I would say that, if your issue is with football decisions, then the issue you want fixed are things like Woodward possibly not delegating enough of that, or a lack of DoF, or issues with the approach to scouting. in that case, these are interesting times, as Woodward is going away, the football structure has been revamped with a DoF in place, etc - and that may mean things really are looking positive long-term. (Or not, but it's wait and see right now.)

But if your issue is with the ownership structure, or the commodification of football and the club in particular, or with the overall financial planning - then the Glazers are the target and football results don't matter. It's obviously easier to motivate fans to act in dire times, but the statement is stronger now.
Tell me, how does it feel to know you are on the side of some American parasite owners, going against the local community in Manchester, without which our beloved club wouldn't exist?

Good to know that I'm a "bad" poster in your book, I take it as a compliment.
Are you aware that there is some space between 'I think the numbers on that image are incorrect and inflated' and 'I fully support the Glazers in everything they do'? Cause you're coming across a little silly with the stance you're taking.
 

Utd heap

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North West tonight. Top story was about the police man and the fan who assaulted him. The protest was mentioned as a subsidiary story.
BBC 5 Live. Each news bulletin they say that the protest was about the club trying to go into the super league rather than the owners. This feels like a deliberate coverup.
You cant rely on the media to cover an uprising properly, they never have done.

We'll keep going.
 

DoomSlayer

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You cant rely on the media to cover an uprising properly, they never have done.

We'll keep going.
Most of the fanbase are backing you all the way! Thanks for making us proud to be a part of the Manchester United community. :keano:
 

Tallis

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You can’t be serious?
I am. I see that Cheimoon broached the discussion I was hoping to have here. I will respond separately.
.
Hahah you just fecked up. Using the word 'your' to describe a team you suppose to support. Luckily you spotted it and changed it to 'our'.
You got me :) I am on the Glazers payroll and make posts that are favourable to them on forums. In reality, I am Florentino Perez.
 

Tomuś

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And now Greta Thunberg is introduced to the thread, great will do wonders. Guess it's better that people blaming Trump for every other disputablr throw-in decision against us.