Fans who were against today's protests

M15 Red.

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For one game. Cool.
Post a message of support to all those who turned up at OT to protest peacefully yesterday, with the aim of furthering a cause you believe in?

Or continue with the sarcasm?

Option B everytime, eh mate?
 

Tallis

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I think it's actually much stronger to protest when the club is doing well on the pitch. It's not like the Glazers have changed their approach to United from one year to the next since Ferguson left. So if you weren't happy with them when things were going poorly, and you're happy now things are looking up, then your issue is not actually with them, but with the people running the football side of the club back in the club's offices. I mean, it's not like the Glazers hired Ole, or bought Lukaku, or fired Mourinho too late, or bought Bruno, or whatever good and bad footballing decisions have been taken in recent years.

I anyway feel this has been conflated in a lot of the discussion. I would say that, if your issue is with football decisions, then the issue you want fixed are things like Woodward possibly not delegating enough of that, or a lack of DoF, or issues with the approach to scouting. in that case, these are interesting times, as Woodward is going away, the football structure has been revamped with a DoF in place, etc - and that may mean things really are looking positive long-term. (Or not, but it's wait and see right now.)

But if your issue is with the ownership structure, or the commodification of football and the club in particular, or with the overall financial planning - then the Glazers are the target and football results don't matter. It's obviously easier to motivate fans to act in dire times, but the statement is stronger now.
I agree that the whole thing has been conflated and at least for me it has been difficult to make sense of it. Fans are angry at the Glazers and for some the point of contention is that they haven’t spent enough or the team hasn’t won enough. Even reading this thread, the Glazers failings in the transfer market etc seem to be ring the loudest. If that is the primary concern, then I would argue that the timing doesn’t make sense for the reason in my original post (better recent performance etc).

With regard to the other reasons - the commodization of the club etc, I totally empathise with that point of view but I just don’t see what can be achieved unless the fans are also proposing a viable solution. We need two hands to clap here and something which basically requires the Glazers to give up control for free or cheap is not going to work for them and is ultimately not a solution. I am not claiming to be omniscient on this topic so happy to be educated.
 

Sky1981

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I didn’t make the photo, and I did say I don’t know how accurate it is. It’s just the one that’s doing the rounds.

What are your thoughts on the glazers? Just wondering? Are you just playing “devils advocate” or do you believe they aren’t as bad as perceived?
They're astute businessman, reasonable enough in investment, could have gone alot worse (gillet and hicks comes to mind). From the business perspective I agree with what they've been doing (trust SAF, sticking their finger out of football). To be fair to them they haven't found their next SAF. The LBO is a valid move and a business 101 (never use your own money) dogma, and I see them as nothing wrong now that 10 years after the debt is very manageable as a tax cut. What we all want doesn't exist in a real world (billionaire, loved the club, takes no divident, don't mind losing money, etc). They invested just the right amount (bar the ronaldo year), 100M-150M on the last few years is top club spending. Shame it didn't work out, but the intention to spend is there.

But they kinda lost it after the ESL, I want them out for being a greedy cnut.
 

Betson

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I heard a journalist on the radio earlier saying that the club will be looking through CCTV footage and trying to identity as many of the supporters as they can who made it into the stadium so as they can hand out life time bans to them.

Do anyone here think the club will do this given it is likely to inflame tensions even more ?
 

croadyman

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There is no alternatives as Glazers started this war by planning to ship the club to another league. The violence could be avoided without their clear intervention in football matters.

Now they'll love the media if they try and spin it on supporters.
Only gotta look at many reports today to see that is happening already
 

Cheimoon

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I agree that the whole thing has been conflated and at least for me it has been difficult to make sense of it. Fans are angry at the Glazers and for some the point of contention is that they haven’t spent enough or the team hasn’t won enough. Even reading this thread, the Glazers failings in the transfer market etc seem to be ring the loudest. If that is the primary concern, then I would argue that the timing doesn’t make sense for the reason in my original post (better recent performance etc).

With regard to the other reasons - the commodization of the club etc, I totally empathise with that point of view but I just don’t see what can be achieved unless the fans are also proposing a viable solution. We need two hands to clap here and something which basically requires the Glazers to give up control for free or cheap is not going to work for them and is ultimately not a solution. I am not claiming to be omniscient on this topic so happy to be educated.
I don't have any suggestions there. As I'm not a United supporter, I don't have enough detail about the Glazers' management or the club, and I feel it's anyway not my place to talk about it. I am just reading the discussions and thinking it's all over the place. To my mind, as long as opinions range from people being fine with anything as long as the football is good and the stadium is renovated, to others taking a principled stance on ownership and football as an aspect of society, then the protests don't say much except for 'something's not right here!' - which you can't really work with in terms of finding a solution.

It's for the same reason that I am a little confused about the calls for a 50+1 system, like in Germany. It is indeed a way to get fans more involved in decision making at the club. (Well: members. In Germany, the 50+1 refers to the members of the organization that having voting rights. Leipzig subverts this by having 7 members who are club people, but normally, clubs have many thousands that get to decide on major items only through voting at a general assembly - or something along those lines.) But then I see some say that you need the 50+1 system to ensure the club is managed by football people that make the right sportive decisions. But that's not guaranteed at all; see Schalke and Hamburg, two German powerhouses with huge financial potential and very vocal fan bases that will both be in the 2. Bundesliga next season. In turn, while Man City is often mentioned as everyone's worst nightmare in terms of ownership, their owners do invest a lot of money in the club and they have been making a lot of strong footballing decisions since their takeover.

So again, if the point is to create a more fan-oriented club culture that people can identify with, then yes, the Glazers and the ownership structure are an issue. But if the issue is to make sure money is invested in football in the right way, then I don't see why the Glazers would be targeted.

Edit: To be clear, I do think most people feel it's the former (it's about saving a certain approach to football and the club from owners like he Glazers; and that would be something I care about myself as well. I just think it's important to keep that argument clear and clean, cause otherwise you're stuck in a net spend discussion before you know it, and that would go nowhere. There was a nice clip of Carragher making that point in another thread:

 
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TheGame

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I heard a journalist on the radio earlier saying that the club will be looking through CCTV footage and trying to identity as many of the supporters as they can who made it into the stadium so as they can hand out life time bans to them.

Do anyone here think the club will do this given it is likely to inflame tensions even more ?
United have come out and said that anyone protesting peacefully will face no action at all so not sure what that journalist is on about.
 

Mr Anderson

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Welcome back to the light, Mr Anderson. It's good to see people who have changed their opinion based on what was achieved yesterday.

We constantly argue here that results are what matters in football, so it's strange to me that people ignore this way of thinking when it comes to curing the Glazer plague.
ya - I’m delighted I was proven wrong. Long May it continue. A lot have held their hands up and agreed this was a truly inspirational day.

fans don’t need to fight with each other. We all want the same thing - this was a massive step forward. Got a fair amount of abuse on Twitter behind nameless accounts because I originally questioned the efforts.
 

Norman Brownbutter

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United have come out and said that anyone protesting peacefully will face no action at all so not sure what that journalist is on about.
As far as Ive heard, anyone breaking the law will have to deal the the consequences of their actions. Th club will be helping the police with cctv etc etc. I imagine that anyone breaking the law is not considered peaceful.
 

Beagle

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If this results in something then it's all well and good.

Can someone explain what can be achieved realistically? The owners will surely take notice but does unhappy fans' opinions come into the picture when billions of dollars are involved? Genuinely asking.
 

DoomSlayer

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I dont remember hearing about any coppers getting their faces slashed, but by all means. If Im mistaken on that, please correct me.
You'll never get me to sympathise with police when it comes to justifiable protests. I'm sorry, but they are part of the community and should know how to deal with a situation that concern them as well in one way or the other. Their job should not only be to beat the shit out of criminals, they should actively seek for a dialogue when such events are brewing.

The protest was being arranged publicly for 2 weeks. They should have reached out and spoken to the main organisers. Even on the day, before the escalations, they should speak up towards the protesters, but not in some condescending manner coming from their power of being the police, they should have made sure that the supporters expressed their views and feelings to the fullest, without things turning into criminal violence and petty hooliganism. The mayor of Manchester and whoever else is responsible for the police force should also do their jobs better in preparing for such events. People who solely put blame on the fans protesting can honestly feck off.
 

Cast5

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Sorry - what’s the point of doing the protest when the team is actually on the ascendancy ? We will likely be in the Europa final and had a good chance to finish 2nd. Could be one of our strongest season since Fergie retired. We also have a bunch of good young players that will improve the team in the next few years.

Shouldn’t we have been doing this when we were getting battered under Mourinho etc ?
Somebody please shoot me.
 

NK86

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Yet you support getting a few hundred fans together to disrupt matches. Unless you plan on doing it every game week, the protest yesterday was useless.
Better than sitting on your couch doing diddly squat and commenting on the ones who are making an effort, right?
 

clarkydaz

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Sorry - what’s the point of doing the protest when the team is actually on the ascendancy ? We will likely be in the Europa final and had a good chance to finish 2nd. Could be one of our strongest season since Fergie retired. We also have a bunch of good young players that will improve the team in the next few years.

Shouldn’t we have been doing this when we were getting battered under Mourinho etc ?
You are correct, fans missed a trick here. We should have done this 3 years ago when Glazers first announced their superleague
 

Cast5

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Where’s the video of the fans breaking into the stadium? The only video I’ve seen is fans being let in to the stadium by club staff.
 

clarkydaz

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Where’s the video of the fans breaking into the stadium? The only video I’ve seen is fans being let in to the stadium by club staff.
theres a clip of 2 guys kicking a glass door in. but that clip above is very important
 

Norman Brownbutter

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You'll never get me to sympathise with police when it comes to justifiable protests. I'm sorry, but they are part of the community and should know how to deal with a situation that concern them as well in one way or the other. Their job should not only be to beat the shit out of criminals, they should actively seek for a dialogue when such events are brewing.

The protest was being arranged publicly for 2 weeks. They should have reached out and spoken to the main organisers. Even on the day, before the escalations, they should speak up towards the protesters, but not in some condescending manner coming from their power of being the police, they should have made sure that the supporters expressed their views and feelings to the fullest, without things turning into criminal violence and petty hooliganism. The mayor of Manchester and whoever else is responsible for the police force should also do their jobs better in preparing for such events. People who solely put blame on the fans protesting can honestly feck off.
And that’s why no one of any worth will ever take you seriously.
 

VP89

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I heard a journalist on the radio earlier saying that the club will be looking through CCTV footage and trying to identity as many of the supporters as they can who made it into the stadium so as they can hand out life time bans to them.

Do anyone here think the club will do this given it is likely to inflame tensions even more ?
They said they will punish those trespassing but nothing toward those who made peaceful protests outside the stadium.
 

Norman Brownbutter

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You have a wild imagination. :lol: I stand by my comments, it's up to you how to respond.
Its not my imagination. I read your words. You have no sympathy for a human being that had their face slashed because theres pricks holding the front door keys to OT.

I dont remember hearing about any coppers getting their faces slashed, but by all means. If Im mistaken on that, please correct me.

You'll never get me to sympathise with police when it comes to justifiable protests.
Utter clown.
 

lysglimt

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What people should ask themselves is this - if the fans succeed in getting the Glazers to sell - who would buy it ? Who can put £3-4 billion on the table and buy the club - and if they could, why would they want to ?
 

DoomSlayer

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Its not my imagination. I read your words. You have no sympathy for a human being that had their face slashed because theres pricks holding the front door keys to OT.






Utter clown.
I have no sympathy for the police in general and it doesn't matter what you think. Feel bad for the individual people getting hurt, it shouldn't happen, but as I said, the police should have an obligation to manage such events and establish dialogue.

I never refrained to you personally in a derogatory manner, so I'd suggest you do the same.
 

alexthelion

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One small thing I forgot to add:

The reason why Neville, Carragher and the whole pleiad of Sky and BT pundits are supporting the protests now and are emphasizing on the Super League as "the stroke that broke the camel's back" is not because they are defenders of the game. It is because the Super League model would render their jobs worthless if the Premier League and Champions League are no longer the top competitions. They understand that very well and their employers have certainly made it abundantly clear of the existential threat there.

They (and many other people) are quoting arguments that are at best wishful thinking, and in reality just naivety. Even on here, people have been dreaming for a competition a lot like the Super League for decades and are too blinded by their collective mob anger now to really consider the facts. Sure, a reserved seat at the table doesn't sound right. But will it affect competitiveness? You could ask the NBA/NHL/NFL stars that question. Or maybe someone thinks those are not the top leagues in the world when it comes to basketball/hockey/American football?

But I digress, this is not about the Super League. I don't particularly care about it, I've always been a fan of the Premier League first and foremost and would be happy if the Super League never comes to fruition. But it is about the protests and the Glazers (who, by the way, also own the current NFL Super Bowl winners..). And the media who are being incredibly irresponsible in defending violent and criminal behavior. Some of the things Neville, Carragher, Keane and Richards said yesterday in the studio should be reviewed and threated as inciting an angry mob, in my opinion. And the worst part is they're doing it out of self-interest, not any love for the game. But people are too angry to see it.
Well said (and your previous post too).

Nice to see a bit of realism for a change.
 

alexthelion

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It's very easy to belittle the protests by with glib whataboutism and easy comments on who will replace the Glazers.

The same people patronizing protestors for not thinking about how bad new owners might be, were last week mocking protestors for how pointless and ineffective any protest would be.

Now fans have mobilised and the world has sat up to pay attention. The reality that fans can make themselves heard and have a real impact on their club is there for all to see, so these people need a new argument to enable their meekness.

They don't consider that no billionaire is going to look at a mass, fan led revolt against another billionaire, and think to himself that he can just nip in and do what he likes. This a a line drawn in the sand - a fan base standing up and showing that we know our power and worth, and we won't accept being taken for granted anymore. Not by the Glazers and not by any other leech with a big bank account either.
It's not about belittling the protests and is certainly not whataboutism but a genuine concern about who will follow the Glazers.

If the protestors could show a united front and spell out what they want (other than "Glazers out") that would be a start. Unfortunately, there does not appear to have been any thought put in as to what will happen if they are successful in removing the Glazers. It's a legitimate concern that some on here have but the majority don't seem to care (enough) about.
 

Rightnr

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We need a tag for the people who don't approve of a protest, unless a 100-page constitution has been drafted in advance. I can think of a few.
 

alexthelion

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Please stop the nonsense of it being our ( the supporters") club. As far as i know In the history of Manchester United the general supporters have never owned the club. The peddled idea from idiots on TV and Radio that supporters are the most important part of any football club is plain rubbish.
All those connected with club owners, staff, players and the fans are equally important. I started supporting United because of the Babes in 1957, I became hooked for life watching Charlton, Law then Best in 60's so players and to a lesser extent Sir Matt sucked me in to love the club, it was not fellow supporters!. It was the entity as a whole that kept me supporting during the years that our biggest rival won everything, I went to OT regularly for many years, lots of travel time, watching not particularly successful sides but always a magic about the club and always an unpredictability that excited. The ownership of the club never entered my head all this time in fact not until we became a PLC when my limited knowledge knew we were vulnerable to market trends. That was the time us supporters could/should have taken a large stake in club but we didn't. Then along came the Glazers I like many others abought a few shares, then joined MUST all to little to late.
We have had a number of owners since United was born, the Glazers just the latest. Are they the worst? to be honest I don't know, they are certainly the most disliked in my lifetime. I would like them gone but not to the extent of dragging the club through the gutter to get rid. Love the protest but hate the 'rent a mob' that always accompanies such action and for me badly hurting the club to get rid of owners is just not worth it. Those cries of happily see the club relegated or play in non league to get rid seem stupid to me ( I thought FC Manchester came into being for them). Do you really want to see the club fall like that just to get rid of bad owners hoping desperately a supporters trust with a few benevolent cash investors take over. Because it is far more likely the club would be sold with the worry we could be jumping out of frying pan into the fire and get worse owners and the cycle starts again. Our best hope is Government and PL coming together to enforce some supporter involvement in every club.
Nicely put.
 

cyril C

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You got anything to back up this ridiculous claim? Nobody wants to harm the staff or the players... at the same time nobody gives a shit about gifting 3 points to Liverpool (not happening anyway), it's more than that which some people completely fail to understand.
What happened to the police man with his face cut? When hundreds of people storming into the stadium, can you guarantee that NO ONE will be harmed, in any form? This is what someone called PEACEFUL protest....
 

cyril C

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I doubt it’ll be tomorrow, and if it is, we have a 4 goal lead. Just for the sake of argument, even though this isn’t the topic of the thread.

Henderson
AWB
Lindelof
Maguire
Shaw
Mcfred
Bruno
Rashford
Pogba (65 minutes)
Cavani

DDG
Williams
Lindelof
Bailly
Telles
Matic
Pogba (45 mins)
James
DvB
Mata
Greenwood

Two almost completely different 11s. We have a massive squad, not to mention there’s 5 subs in Europe.
OK good to discuss non-violent matters.

IMO, only City and Chelsea have the depth in squad that can afford to make significant changes without noticeable impact on fire power (8 for Palace game? still have Aguero Sterling)

Just for argument sake, what if we make 4 changes beside keeper. Obvious changes include

Greenwood for Cavani
James for Rashford
Teles for Shaw
Matic for Fred

And I am not taking Bruno or Pogba off (may be until 2nd half), so this must be our strongest B+ team that anyone could have hope for?

If we setup to park the bus for counter-attack, Greenwood and James should be fine, depending on conversion rate. Matic should also fine although less mobile. But Telles simply cannot replace Shaw, defensively nor offensively. So we will drop at least 10-15% if we need to chase a goal, may be par on counter-attack, and may be par defensively. IMO this is good enough to replicate Chelsea's sting on Liverpool with the famous StevieG slip.

What if we make further changes
Bailly for Lindelof
VDB for Bruno (or Pogba)

This is what I would have predicted, should we have 2 games in 3 days.

Defensively and offensively, must be affected. Before I think about whether Williams and Mata should start.

We are talking about a hungry Liverpool that need 3 points, not Burnley or Newcastle that is OK for a point...
 

alexthelion

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Make a better one then. This is a call to all the financial geniuses and gurus on the Caf. Make a more genuine analysis and share it with the rest. Let's see the real numbers.
Just because you're financially illiterate doesn't mean others are. It's fine to acknowledge a shortcoming in your knowledge, you don't have to keep posting and prove that to everyone.
 

alexthelion

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I heard a journalist on the radio earlier saying that the club will be looking through CCTV footage and trying to identity as many of the supporters as they can who made it into the stadium so as they can hand out life time bans to them.

Do anyone here think the club will do this given it is likely to inflame tensions even more ?
Why shouldn't they, it's the right thing to do?
 

Wibble

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What do you think fans should do instead? I'd love to see some alternatives.
Protest is great and one of the few ways United fans will be heard but the regret is that when cops get injured it allows the protests to be dismissed as the actions of violent football hooligans.