Fans who were against today's protests

Gasolin

Full Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
5,797
Location
NYC
I am sad a few people attracted the attention the wrong way, but I think there should be effort to try to give as much spotlight as possible to the majority of the people who were there to send a strong message. I don't know what is the right answer, I don't think anyone has £4b to spend on a football club right now, but I hope the real conversation is with the authorities to basically put some safety in place:

- 0 dividend allowed without any exception if for a FC, the net debt ratio is above 0%, meaning the gross debt has to be reduced by £455m right away
My hope is that this move forces the Glazers to sell up or float more equity to fund this
- For a FC, forbid the equities to be of different classes. No more class A/B BS, all shares have the same voting right, meaning that if they choose to float more equities to fund this net debt stuff, they need to be forced to share voting power as well, even if it's a backdrop for them
- Maybe force the FC to never allow any dividends until the FP&L has been validated through some specific stress testing scenarios, basically, if the FC is not profitable on its own, it should never be allowed to provide any dividend whatsoever. If they want some dividends, they need to make the club profitable.

The remaining 2 options are for me a little idealistic and maybe not realistic, but I would want:
- Forbid any LBO on a FC going forward. Right now, £265m were backed by the club assets. This needs to be paid back no matter what, by law, and even by force if needed.
- And a veto right for fans on major topics, that includes new competitions, transfers, budget. I don't care about 50% + 1 because nobody has £2b anyway. I just think fans should have representative that have to vote on some topics no matter what by law when it comes to a FC. Basically, enforce the idea that a FC is not a private company, and does not follow the same rules.

My worry is that most FC are actually not profitable, so it's probably a bit complicated to enforce some of the options above.
 

cyril C

Full Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2017
Messages
2,050
I'm not sure that's true. They've sent a really strong message that we've all had enough of them. They will get their super league over our dead bodies so they may as well cash out now.
Certain objective has been achieved. The game will be re-scheduled, rumour said this Tues. Which means that our Best 11 will have to play 2 games in 2 days, advantage to Roma, or we will have to send our U21 to be slaughtered by Liverpool, great news to Liverpool. I think we have too many Liverpool lovers pretending to be Utd fan
 

Sarni

nice guy, unassuming, objective United fan.
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
52,814
Location
Krakow
Do you think sponsors will just not care if this kept happening ?

If glazers make a business decision that value of man united has peaked, or would be more valuable to someone else, then they might be motivated to sell
If the goal is to hurt clubs value and make us bring in less revenue then over the long stretch this may succeed but it would have to happen over and over again to tarnish our reputation to a large extent in the eyes of our global fan base (as that is mainly what appeals to sponsors). I’m not even sure it will work though.
 

Gasolin

Full Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
5,797
Location
NYC
Certain objective has been achieved. The game will be re-scheduled, rumour said this Tues. Which means that our Best 11 will have to play 2 games in 2 days, advantage to Roma, or we will have to send our U21 to be slaughtered by Liverpool, great news to Liverpool. I think we have too many Liverpool lovers pretending to be Utd fan
That's terrible if true. The FA has to be more considerate than that. But we know they will f*** us over.
 

clarkydaz

Full Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2013
Messages
10,801
Location
manchester
If the goal is to hurt clubs value and make us bring in less revenue then over the long stretch this may succeed but it would have to happen over and over again to tarnish our reputation to a large extent in the eyes of our global fan base (as that is mainly what appeals to sponsors). I’m not even sure it will work though.
the new shirt sponsorship is lower than they hoped, negativity eventually catches up
 

peridigm

Full Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Messages
10,374
What do you think fans should do instead? I'd love to see some alternatives.
When fans are allowed back in the stadium, they should not go. I know it's a huge ask but what happened today will not have any impact on the Glazer's whatsoever. They were probably on the golf course or eating Sunday brunch in Florida oblivious as to what was going on until they received a text message from someone at the club.

I just hope we're not docked points or required to forfeit the match. We still don't know what may come from the whole ESL thing. That and this could see some docked points coming next season.
 

TheReligion

Abusive
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
31,900
Location
Manchester
I just hope we're not docked points or required to forfeit the match. We still don't know what may come from the whole ESL thing. That and this could see some docked points coming next season.
It must be tough worrying about every little thing in life.
 

iluvoursolskjær

New Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2015
Messages
4,558
Location
Searching for life's white text in London
May Allah bless everyone that came out to the protest today.

Sick of these parasites.

All the people focusing on the minute minority causing trouble expose themselves through their language.

If you claim to support and love something that gets violated, and your first concern in a mostly peaceful protest is what a few excited dickheads did, I question your priorities.

You're comfortable with the status quo cos it doesn't hurt you, so you want to shit on the people that want to change something they very clearly see is unacceptable.

Ban them all.
 

POF

Full Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Messages
3,676
We all (or most of us) want the same thing

An all conquering, invincible team that’s great to watch; probably a bigger stadium is on most of our lists and throw in cheaper tickets and cheaper merchandise.

We won’t get any of that with the Glazers.
So we want them out. Protesting in some form is probably all we can do.

I’d be happier if it could be done without criminal damage and assaulting coppers. A properly organised mass protest would be better. It’s been suggested before but (once crowds are back in stadiums) a mass walkout after five minutes would be much better and would make for spectacular media impact. Repeat this every home match for a few weeks and we could be onto something.

As long as we’re vandalising and putting coppers in hospital, we’ll get nowhere.
You're not going to get that with any ownership. In fact, the best chance of getting that would have been the Super League.

The fans want the Glazers out. Fantastic. What then? What's the alternative?

The sad fact of the matter is, things could be a lot worse and there are much worse potential owners out there than the Glazers.

Lots of talk in this thread about Sky and the evil Premier League and how they didn't do anything to prevent foreign or state ownership. Spending limits and salary caps should be introduced, etc.

That's great, but then you won't get an "all conquering, invincible team that’s great to watch; probably a bigger stadium is on most of our lists and throw in cheaper tickets and cheaper merchandise".

United benefitted more than any other club from the huge growth in the commercialisation of the game, right at the point when United were the best team in the country. It made the club the commercial juggernaut it is today which could only be challenged by oil backed or state run clubs.

My issue with the protests is that apart from "get the Glazers out" or chanting death threats, there is absolutely no objective in mind. There's no group proposing a takeover that the fans want to happen. Do they want the 50+1 fan ownership? Who knows?

"The fans want to be listened to". If anyone actually listens, will they have anything to say?
 

Lennon7

nipple flasher and door destroyer
Joined
May 8, 2013
Messages
10,317
Location
M5
Not even gonna read this bollocks thread
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
80,078
Location
india
I've surmised that those who want the Glazers gone at any cost are hoping that eventually we have the transfer strategy of Barcelona but not the youth academy philosophy. After all, how are any youth players getting in the team when you're buying 3+ world class players every year?
:lol:
 

Andersonson

Full Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2013
Messages
1,606
Location
Trondheim
No, it's you who fails to (and I'm starting to think purposefully) to understand and is trying to obfuscate and play games with the truth.

They've spent £1bn on transfers. They've taken between 1 and 2 billion of the club's OWN money, estimate is around 1.5bn. Now, one of these numbers is bigger and shows their intent.

We paid £30m for Ferdinand in 2001, way before the crazy inflation in football prises started. Why? Because we could afford to do it and WANTED to do it. Your logic doesn't work.
I think you got it mixed up my friend. They've taken their money out of the club. They own it :)

It's not yours
 

MinGin

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 26, 2020
Messages
118
Will Glazers care about a match cancelled because of the protest to them? Maybe.
BUT will they sell the club because of this? No way.
Lash them with enough money would be more useful way than that.

They will sell the Club IF:
- The profit cannot be attracted them anymore (Better way to do is: Not attend every home games or not buy any peripheral products. Oh well! You may add the choice to make the club out of CL or EL by protesting every home games to get punishment until they sell the club)
- Buy the Club, pay them what they want!
- Change the current political policy

Will someone guarantee that we will be not punished by FA to any point deduction or something because of this? (We will in danger in Top 4 if 5+ points deduction)
You are against the owner not the Club, staffs and players.
Then why you attacked and damaged the Old Trafford? Because Old Trafford owned by owner?
Then why you besieged the hotel and players? Because they got paid by the owner?
Then why you all write off the hard working preparation of Staffs and Players for this match? and match postponement would be definitely disrupted the strategy, planning and management of the fixture. Don't frustrated if we cannot win the EL.
 

Sky1981

Fending off the urge
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
26,444
Location
Under the bright neon lights of sincity
I am sad a few people attracted the attention the wrong way, but I think there should be effort to try to give as much spotlight as possible to the majority of the people who were there to send a strong message. I don't know what is the right answer, I don't think anyone has £4b to spend on a football club right now, but I hope the real conversation is with the authorities to basically put some safety in place:

- 0 dividend allowed without any exception if for a FC, the net debt ratio is above 0%, meaning the gross debt has to be reduced by £455m right away
My hope is that this move forces the Glazers to sell up or float more equity to fund this
- For a FC, forbid the equities to be of different classes. No more class A/B BS, all shares have the same voting right, meaning that if they choose to float more equities to fund this net debt stuff, they need to be forced to share voting power as well, even if it's a backdrop for them
- Maybe force the FC to never allow any dividends until the FP&L has been validated through some specific stress testing scenarios, basically, if the FC is not profitable on its own, it should never be allowed to provide any dividend whatsoever. If they want some dividends, they need to make the club profitable.

The remaining 2 options are for me a little idealistic and maybe not realistic, but I would want:
- Forbid any LBO on a FC going forward. Right now, £265m were backed by the club assets. This needs to be paid back no matter what, by law, and even by force if needed.
- And a veto right for fans on major topics, that includes new competitions, transfers, budget. I don't care about 50% + 1 because nobody has £2b anyway. I just think fans should have representative that have to vote on some topics no matter what by law when it comes to a FC. Basically, enforce the idea that a FC is not a private company, and does not follow the same rules.

My worry is that most FC are actually not profitable, so it's probably a bit complicated to enforce some of the options above.
So. In a nutshell. We're looking for

1. Rich billionaire with 4bn cold cash to spare
2. Stupid Billionaire who invest 4bn of his own money, with no possible dividend*(See no.3)
3. Profit is relatife, if you spend a summer window buying no one, you'd be guaranteed profit. If you sell your youth prospect you're in the green. Most teams that spends are usually in the red for that specific window
4. You can't forbid LBO. On what ground? That would need to revamp the whole European banking system. Even if you can get that in practice, that's discriminatory and opens up cans of worms. Legal aren't exclusive to footballing issue.
5. Veto right for fans? This is not realistic. Who are the fans? You? me? if I say no and you say yes, who would they listen to?
6. Fans representative? What if they represent the sell Martial Sack Ole brigade? Or Keep martial Ole forever brigade?
7. No clubs would be profitable if they're expected to spend 300M every season. Even for Manchester United that number is pipeline.
 

Red Stone

Full Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2011
Messages
7,998
Location
NZ
Strongly worded handwritten letters and anti-Glazer bumper stickers.
 

RedBanker

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2017
Messages
903
Lay seige to OT till the end of the season and not allow another game to go on. That'll show them. What happened yesterday was piss poor weakness on display. I mean why disperse? Bring em guns and barbed wire. Bring em landmines and C4 and rig the place up. Do the hold up until Glazers just write off everything and leave. That's the objective right?
 

R'hllor

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
13,311
Wait are people being for real in here or just trollin, what a hell
 

Castia

Full Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2011
Messages
13,061
:lol: Cloud cuckoo land. If the fans want change they should start buying up shares when they become available
You mean the shares that give zero authority to anybody? No thanks.

Obviously if they list the whole club or even 51% of shares they’d be out tomorrow.
 

georgipep

Full Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2015
Messages
1,095
Location
Not far enough
You're not going to get that with any ownership. In fact, the best chance of getting that would have been the Super League.

The fans want the Glazers out. Fantastic. What then? What's the alternative?

The sad fact of the matter is, things could be a lot worse and there are much worse potential owners out there than the Glazers.

Lots of talk in this thread about Sky and the evil Premier League and how they didn't do anything to prevent foreign or state ownership. Spending limits and salary caps should be introduced, etc.

That's great, but then you won't get an "all conquering, invincible team that’s great to watch; probably a bigger stadium is on most of our lists and throw in cheaper tickets and cheaper merchandise".

United benefitted more than any other club from the huge growth in the commercialisation of the game, right at the point when United were the best team in the country. It made the club the commercial juggernaut it is today which could only be challenged by oil backed or state run clubs.

My issue with the protests is that apart from "get the Glazers out" or chanting death threats, there is absolutely no objective in mind. There's no group proposing a takeover that the fans want to happen. Do they want the 50+1 fan ownership? Who knows?

"The fans want to be listened to". If anyone actually listens, will they have anything to say?
A rare voice of reason, I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing the obvious flaws in the current situation and people's frenzy. I see the protesting fanbase is generally split in two camps:
a) A benevolent billionaire to take over the Glazers and make us the highest spending club in the world. This implies either the new owner would pump their own money into the club, beyond the price of acquiring it, which I imagine fans won't be happy with a leveraged buy-out, like the Glazers did, or they don't take dividends, which is the other huge gripe with the current owners. It just begs the question, why would any billionaire spend £4-5bn of their money in buying a huge asset that won't make them any money unless they decide to sell it? Some would say "for the brand power and recognition" and I would answer that if a person is able to spend £4bn on a football club, they have enough power. The only other legitimate reason I could think of is to legitimise their business and persona. Like a Saudi crown prince, Chinese tycoon or some ex-USSR fossil fuels magnate.
b) The 50%+1 ownership model where the club would be "owned" by its supporters. I think people haven't really thought about this one at all. First of all, in order for the ownership to change from Glazers to XXXXX amount of supporters, the latter need to come up with the money to buy the 50%+1 share off the Glazer family and partners. I really, really, really doubt people could come up with that kind of money. Let's make a mental math exercise:
  • Let's say 50% of the club are currently worth £2bn
  • Let's assume willing supporters organise and are willing to attempt buying off that 50% share and the total amount of those is 100,000 (this is being very, very, very optimistic)
  • 2,000,000,000 divided by 100,000 = £20,000 per supporter
I don't know about other people but I believe saying that a 100k supporters would come out with £20k each to basically donate so that "the people" could own the club is.....naive, to put it nicely.

But ok, let's assume even that actually happens. What then? The club is 50%+1 owned by the supporters. That means club management need to be elected on mandates. So, we enter the world of politics, populism, promises and consequences beyond the end of the current mandate. I urge people to read more on the reasons why Real Madrid and Barcelona are in dire financial state right now. It has a lot to do with the key words I underlined in the previous sentence.

Then some point to the German ownership model and more specifically to Bayern Munchen. Again, I suggest people do some reading on the topic and also understand that such a model exists in specific circumstances where it is the norm with very few exceptions (Bayern themselves can be counted as exception, RB Leipzig are another one) and to even consider it possible in the UK, it would mean ALL clubs must transition to a 50%+1 ownership model. I don't want to say that's impossible but it's damn close to it.

So, what does that leave us with? Violent, angry and loud protesters who are such a small fraction of the club's fanbase that if they weren't violent nobody would even notice them. Other are Social Media heroes who post angry messages with hashtags and support to ideas they generally do not understand.

I believe the owners, the staff, the players and the PL will all want this to end very soon because it is, at best, an unnecessary nuissance, or at worst, an attempt to set a very dangerous precedent where private property ownership is challenged by rioting consumers and is the football's equivalent of the Capitol Hill insurrection. What's next? Overthrow the Coca-Cola Company management because Coke consumers do not like their advertising model?

What do I think is going to happen? The club will invite several protester representatives to "constructive dialogue talks" which will take place for a while and then they will create a new structure within the club for something like "supporter stakeholder supervision" which will be sold as a reasonable compromise as the owners have listened to fans and have taken actions to ensure their voice continues to be heard and is part of the club going forward.
 

georgipep

Full Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2015
Messages
1,095
Location
Not far enough
A rare voice of reason, I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing the obvious flaws in the current situation and people's frenzy. I see the protesting fanbase is generally split in two camps:
a) A benevolent billionaire to take over the Glazers and make us the highest spending club in the world. This implies either the new owner would pump their own money into the club, beyond the price of acquiring it, which I imagine fans won't be happy with a leveraged buy-out, like the Glazers did, or they don't take dividends, which is the other huge gripe with the current owners. It just begs the question, why would any billionaire spend £4-5bn of their money in buying a huge asset that won't make them any money unless they decide to sell it? Some would say "for the brand power and recognition" and I would answer that if a person is able to spend £4bn on a football club, they have enough power. The only other legitimate reason I could think of is to legitimise their business and persona. Like a Saudi crown prince, Chinese tycoon or some ex-USSR fossil fuels magnate.
b) The 50%+1 ownership model where the club would be "owned" by its supporters. I think people haven't really thought about this one at all. First of all, in order for the ownership to change from Glazers to XXXXX amount of supporters, the latter need to come up with the money to buy the 50%+1 share off the Glazer family and partners. I really, really, really doubt people could come up with that kind of money. Let's make a mental math exercise:
  • Let's say 50% of the club are currently worth £2bn
  • Let's assume willing supporters organise and are willing to attempt buying off that 50% share and the total amount of those is 100,000 (this is being very, very, very optimistic)
  • 2,000,000,000 divided by 100,000 = £20,000 per supporter
I don't know about other people but I believe saying that a 100k supporters would come out with £20k each to basically donate so that "the people" could own the club is.....naive, to put it nicely.

But ok, let's assume even that actually happens. What then? The club is 50%+1 owned by the supporters. That means club management need to be elected on mandates. So, we enter the world of politics, populism, promises and consequences beyond the end of the current mandate. I urge people to read more on the reasons why Real Madrid and Barcelona are in dire financial state right now. It has a lot to do with the key words I underlined in the previous sentence.

Then some point to the German ownership model and more specifically to Bayern Munchen. Again, I suggest people do some reading on the topic and also understand that such a model exists in specific circumstances where it is the norm with very few exceptions (Bayern themselves can be counted as exception, RB Leipzig are another one) and to even consider it possible in the UK, it would mean ALL clubs must transition to a 50%+1 ownership model. I don't want to say that's impossible but it's damn close to it.

So, what does that leave us with? Violent, angry and loud protesters who are such a small fraction of the club's fanbase that if they weren't violent nobody would even notice them. Other are Social Media heroes who post angry messages with hashtags and support to ideas they generally do not understand.

I believe the owners, the staff, the players and the PL will all want this to end very soon because it is, at best, an unnecessary nuissance, or at worst, an attempt to set a very dangerous precedent where private property ownership is challenged by rioting consumers and is the football's equivalent of the Capitol Hill insurrection. What's next? Overthrow the Coca-Cola Company management because Coke consumers do not like their advertising model?

What do I think is going to happen? The club will invite several protester representatives to "constructive dialogue talks" which will take place for a while and then they will create a new structure within the club for something like "supporter stakeholder supervision" which will be sold as a reasonable compromise as the owners have listened to fans and have taken actions to ensure their voice continues to be heard and is part of the club going forward.
One small thing I forgot to add:

The reason why Neville, Carragher and the whole pleiad of Sky and BT pundits are supporting the protests now and are emphasizing on the Super League as "the stroke that broke the camel's back" is not because they are defenders of the game. It is because the Super League model would render their jobs worthless if the Premier League and Champions League are no longer the top competitions. They understand that very well and their employers have certainly made it abundantly clear of the existential threat there.

They (and many other people) are quoting arguments that are at best wishful thinking, and in reality just naivety. Even on here, people have been dreaming for a competition a lot like the Super League for decades and are too blinded by their collective mob anger now to really consider the facts. Sure, a reserved seat at the table doesn't sound right. But will it affect competitiveness? You could ask the NBA/NHL/NFL stars that question. Or maybe someone thinks those are not the top leagues in the world when it comes to basketball/hockey/American football?

But I digress, this is not about the Super League. I don't particularly care about it, I've always been a fan of the Premier League first and foremost and would be happy if the Super League never comes to fruition. But it is about the protests and the Glazers (who, by the way, also own the current NFL Super Bowl winners..). And the media who are being incredibly irresponsible in defending violent and criminal behavior. Some of the things Neville, Carragher, Keane and Richards said yesterday in the studio should be reviewed and threated as inciting an angry mob, in my opinion. And the worst part is they're doing it out of self-interest, not any love for the game. But people are too angry to see it.
 

jojojo

JoJoJoJoJoJo
Staff
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
33,424
Location
Welcome to Manchester reception committee
The problem we have is nobody will pay the market price for the club. Same reason Spotify bloke won’t buy Arsenal. Look at the history of PL clubs being bought. Only ever happens for a knock-down price. The one and only exception being Manchester United and the Glazers couldn’t afford to pay for it up front.

It’s a depressing thought but there’s no cnut anywhere that would dream of paying the Glazers the several billion the club is currently valued at. Then invest another few hundred million on players/the stadium. Absolutely no chance of any rational business man having that much spare cash swilling around.
Which brings the question of "market price" into doubt. What's a market price if people won't pay it. The 4B figure is all about forward projections based on imaginary revenue coming one day.

It's not based on a football team that needs most of the annual profit reinvested just to stand still. It's certainly not based on a club that needs to spend heavily to bring its stadium up to date or to improve Carrington in line with other comparable clubs.

There's a phrase about, "never try and catch a falling knife," and that's where the Glazer's stand today - their investment has peaked. The more uncomfortable we make the covid recovery, there more likely some of the Glazer tribe are to blink.

We paid £30m for Berbatov, £24m for van Persie, £22m for Nani and about the same for Anderson in the same window, we were prepared to pay the £50m to buy out Tevez's loan. We have spent plenty under the Glazers. Some people just don't want to acknowledge it.
We have spent part of the money we earned on keeping the team adequate to the job of finishing top 4. The rest of the money we earned has gone on servicing the Glazer's debts and lining their pockets.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

Full Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
6,162
I’m not against the protest but surely the plan can’t be to try and get every home game cancelled now? That’s just going to cause us to get punished massively and the players and fans will pay the price.
 

DavelinaJolie

Full Member
Joined
May 8, 2013
Messages
1,230
Organise en masse (yes, use social media) to do the following:

1. Don't buy match tickets and cancel season tickets.
2. Don't buy merchandise.
3. Unsubscribe from sports packages (BT, Sky, your local variant if you have one). Tell them why.
4. Boycott all sponsors of the club, and again, let the sponsors know why. Do this via social media as well, because these companies will take note of the damage to their brand name even if the Glazers don't.
5. Be prepared to do that for the long haul.

Yesterday's action speaks to Utd fans. That's great I guess, but most responses I've seen outside this forum from ordinary people are that it was thuggery. I'm not saying we as fans need to get others to care about the club, that won't happen, but actively turning the general public against the fans is a dumb move. When you complain that there are responses in the media focussing on the "minority of people" doing dumb shit, their actions opened the door to that, don't bemoan the fact that media will do exactly what you know it will do. Likewise when the club and league draw attention to it in their statements, the door was opened to that.

I'd have been less bothered by the protest if it wasn't so predictable that there would be a bunch of stereotypes wandering drunkenly on the Old Trafford pitch trying to kick a ball that looked like they were out for a jolly bit of fun. I know a lot of people think it was funny, but most people watching just think "yeah, football fans". Congrats.
 

georgipep

Full Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2015
Messages
1,095
Location
Not far enough
I am sad a few people attracted the attention the wrong way, but I think there should be effort to try to give as much spotlight as possible to the majority of the people who were there to send a strong message. I don't know what is the right answer, I don't think anyone has £4b to spend on a football club right now, but I hope the real conversation is with the authorities to basically put some safety in place:

- 0 dividend allowed without any exception if for a FC, the net debt ratio is above 0%, meaning the gross debt has to be reduced by £455m right away
My hope is that this move forces the Glazers to sell up or float more equity to fund this
- For a FC, forbid the equities to be of different classes. No more class A/B BS, all shares have the same voting right, meaning that if they choose to float more equities to fund this net debt stuff, they need to be forced to share voting power as well, even if it's a backdrop for them
- Maybe force the FC to never allow any dividends until the FP&L has been validated through some specific stress testing scenarios, basically, if the FC is not profitable on its own, it should never be allowed to provide any dividend whatsoever. If they want some dividends, they need to make the club profitable.

The remaining 2 options are for me a little idealistic and maybe not realistic, but I would want:
- Forbid any LBO on a FC going forward. Right now, £265m were backed by the club assets. This needs to be paid back no matter what, by law, and even by force if needed.
- And a veto right for fans on major topics, that includes new competitions, transfers, budget. I don't care about 50% + 1 because nobody has £2b anyway. I just think fans should have representative that have to vote on some topics no matter what by law when it comes to a FC. Basically, enforce the idea that a FC is not a private company, and does not follow the same rules.

My worry is that most FC are actually not profitable, so it's probably a bit complicated to enforce some of the options above.
If dividends are not allowed while with debt (which is standard business practice), what is the incentive of being owner of a football club? Please, for the sake of this argument, do not tell me billionaires are willing to spend money because the love the club. I do not believe smart business people spend obscene amounts of money to lock them away in assets that cannot bring profits until being sold (and that is risky in itself as although FCs in general appreciate in value, it isn't guaranteed, especially with our precocious fanbase).

Let me explore a hypothetical scenario if I were a billionaire who buys the club without a LBO.
  • I would take dividends, surely.
  • I would also make partnership and sponsorship deals to benefit my other businesses (basically leveraging Man Utd's brand value and most likely underselling it so I can extract profit from my other businesses).
  • I would probably allow the club to invest in facilities to maintain them and keep competitive levels.
  • Same for staff and squad. I don't see any business reason in overspending.
  • I would estimate the financial impact of winning the league, the CL and every other trophy, compare them to the financial impact of finishing top 4, getting to the knockout rounds, exiting in the groups, dropping to the EL, etc. And I would make staff and players planning decisions based on that. If top 4 and knockout rounds means overall earning more net revenues and profits, guess what I'd choose to do. Because this is business.

And if I'm not allowed to do these things, why would I even consider buying a football club? Why would any business person consider it?
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

You'd better not kill Giroud
Joined
Jun 11, 2015
Messages
9,780
How do fans drive a stronger message?? I'm not going to be facetious I would genuinely like to know.
Stop. Watching. The. Games.

Once you understand that the fans are the product that is being sold to advertisers and business as (viewers) you'll get why these protests do absolutely feck all. If the viewership to each United game takes a 30% hit, how can they sell commercial deals for the same value? They can't. How can they justify an increase TV money? They can't. It damages the product. Instead it is just an excuse for people to act in a yobbish manner while justifying it in the name of a "cause". Best swing by the off license to get a four pack of Stella en route to a protest.

I stand by this, the absolute worst thing about football is, by far, the fans.
 

jojojo

JoJoJoJoJoJo
Staff
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
33,424
Location
Welcome to Manchester reception committee
And if I'm not allowed to do these things, why would I even consider buying a football club? Why would any business person consider it?
Then don't buy a football club, buy a shopping mall instead?

United funds itself and the Glazers (and their bankers). Most clubs don't even do that. Maybe football clubs aren't like most businesses.
 

OrcaFat

Full Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
1,306
You're not going to get that with any ownership. In fact, the best chance of getting that would have been the Super League.

The fans want the Glazers out. Fantastic. What then? What's the alternative?

The sad fact of the matter is, things could be a lot worse and there are much worse potential owners out there than the Glazers.

Lots of talk in this thread about Sky and the evil Premier League and how they didn't do anything to prevent foreign or state ownership. Spending limits and salary caps should be introduced, etc.

That's great, but then you won't get an "all conquering, invincible team that’s great to watch; probably a bigger stadium is on most of our lists and throw in cheaper tickets and cheaper merchandise".

United benefitted more than any other club from the huge growth in the commercialisation of the game, right at the point when United were the best team in the country. It made the club the commercial juggernaut it is today which could only be challenged by oil backed or state run clubs.

My issue with the protests is that apart from "get the Glazers out" or chanting death threats, there is absolutely no objective in mind. There's no group proposing a takeover that the fans want to happen. Do they want the 50+1 fan ownership? Who knows?

"The fans want to be listened to". If anyone actually listens, will they have anything to say?
Hey, we just want owners who don’t take so much money out of the club and understand it a bit better.

There’s two possible positive outcomes from organised and sustained protesting. 1 The current ownership improves itself. 2 The club is sold.

If the club is sold to someone worse then it’s an all time backfire. And, it’s true, there are no perfect outcomes. But there are two kinds of people in this world: those who accept the status quo and those who try to change it.
 

MU655

Full Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2020
Messages
900
So. In a nutshell. We're looking for

1. Rich billionaire with 4bn cold cash to spare
2. Stupid Billionaire who invest 4bn of his own money, with no possible dividend*(See no.3)
3. Profit is relatife, if you spend a summer window buying no one, you'd be guaranteed profit. If you sell your youth prospect you're in the green. Most teams that spends are usually in the red for that specific window
4. You can't forbid LBO. On what ground? That would need to revamp the whole European banking system. Even if you can get that in practice, that's discriminatory and opens up cans of worms. Legal aren't exclusive to footballing issue.
5. Veto right for fans? This is not realistic. Who are the fans? You? me? if I say no and you say yes, who would they listen to?
6. Fans representative? What if they represent the sell Martial Sack Ole brigade? Or Keep martial Ole forever brigade?
7. No clubs would be profitable if they're expected to spend 300M every season. Even for Manchester United that number is pipeline.
Yep. People's expectations are just way too unrealistic. There are only 2755 billionaires in the whole world, and even most of them couldn't afford to do what is being asked. And a lot of those who could wouldn't take such a risk.

Why would a person pour that much money in to not even have control over how the club is run? Really, fans are looking for charity here.

They have to buy the club, pay off the debt, not take out dividends, and allow fans to have a say in how the club is run. That sounds like charity to me.
 

jojojo

JoJoJoJoJoJo
Staff
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
33,424
Location
Welcome to Manchester reception committee
Why would a person pour that much money in to not even have control over how the club is run? Really, fans are looking for charity here.

They have to buy the club, pay off the debt, not take out dividends, and allow fans to have a say in how the club is run. That sounds like charity to me.
Charity?

How about confiscation of stolen property? As far as most match fee paying fans are concerned the Glazers nicked their club, their stadium and their team.

Or here's an offer: we'll give them back what they put in.
 

Ekeke

Full Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
49,116
Location
Hope, We Lose
Hey, we just want owners who don’t take so much money out of the club and understand it a bit better.

There’s two possible positive outcomes from organised and sustained protesting. 1 The current ownership improves itself. 2 The club is sold.

If the club is sold to someone worse then it’s an all time backfire. And, it’s true, there are no perfect outcomes. But there are two kinds of people in this world: those who accept the status quo and those who try to change it.
In order to get to 2 you're going to see staff lose jobs, players sold to balance the books, ticket prices going up etc. So even if nothing happens, no improved ownership, no sale in 2 years of protests its still a huge negative for everyone connected to the club
 

Ekeke

Full Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
49,116
Location
Hope, We Lose
Charity?

How about confiscation of stolen property? As far as most match fee paying fans are concerned the Glazers nicked their club, their stadium and their team.

Or here's an offer: we'll give them back what they put in.
Great. Now all you need is to become a billionaire so you can buy the club and be the one possible owner who is going to have that point of view. Good luck
 

roonster09

Hercule Poirot of the scouting world
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
28,325
Charity?

How about confiscation of stolen property? As far as most match fee paying fans are concerned the Glazers nicked their club, their stadium and their team.

Or here's an offer: we'll give them back what they put in.
Didn't they take more than 1 billion out of club? That's maybe 5-6 times of what they invested. What a sad cnuts we have as owners.
 

jojojo

JoJoJoJoJoJo
Staff
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
33,424
Location
Welcome to Manchester reception committee
Great. Now all you need is to become a billionaire so you can buy the club and be the one possible owner who is going to have that point of view. Good luck
Why? I've just said I'm in favour of a compulsory purchase order with the Glazers compensated based on what they put in (minus what they've extracted) - we could even pay interest on their net investment.

I reckon that's makes the club a much more affordable option for a share offering. And yes, we'd need a lot of luck to see it happen. It still wouldn't be charity though.
 

Spoony

The People's President
Joined
Oct 27, 2001
Messages
55,577
Location
Peng a leng.
Which brings the question of "market price" into doubt. What's a market price if people won't pay it. The 4B figure is all about forward projections based on imaginary revenue coming one day.

It's not based on a football team that needs most of the annual profit reinvested just to stand still. It's certainly not based on a club that needs to spend heavily to bring its stadium up to date or to improve Carrington in line with other comparable clubs.

There's a phrase about, "never try and catch a falling knife," and that's where the Glazer's stand today - their investment has peaked. The more uncomfortable we make the covid recovery, there more likely some of the Glazer tribe are to blink.

Would be interesting to see future projections without the ESL. If we don't start winning we'll continue taking a hit in sponsorship revenue. Plus the stadium is in dire need of renovation...it may even end up costing the owners close to a billion pounds. As for market value, who knows...but whatever they get they'll have made substantial profit. One things for sure fans are virtually powerless, even though in theory the opposite should be the case... but that's the difference between fans and consumers.