Far right & anti Semitic leaders win Hungarian election

langster

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People really need to keep in mind, that the EU doesn't control Homeland, that's the responsibility of the member states, everyone is responsible for his own borders, everyone is responsible for his population and everyone makes his own immigration rules. Now, there are rules that members of the Council of Europe and the UN agreed on these rules are in part in the ECHR and the Geneva conventions and it's the case for asylum laws.

There is no EU border police because most member states see it as a lost of sovereignty. Ironically, if the EU actually did what some suggests the "incompetence" would become a "dictatorship".
I agree completely. It just infuriates me how so many fasley use the immigration and open borders sticks to beat the EU with or to blame the EU for, as was the case with much of the Brexit campaign.

It's not just here though, Trump banging on about "those poor Syrians" because the optics suit and look good at the moment. He didn't give a shit when he refused entry to Syrian refugees the same as he didn't mention Tibet when visiting China or meeting the Chinese President. Nobody wants completely open borders, that is insane. I just wish people wouldn't always use it as their defence or as an attack against those who think differently. It's a disingenuous argument and doesn't get anyone anywhere.
 

KirkDuyt

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I'm not here to defend this guy but I don't think he's far right at all. Nationalistic yes, xenophobic certainly, but that's not the same thing.

Also, can't seem to find anything about him making anti semitic comments or endorsements? Would somebody possibly point me in the right direction?

Again, I'm not standing up for Orban, I know very little about him. It does strike me however that the left is trying to use this to make Labour look better.



Hungary is beautiful, and Budapest is an architectural and cultural gem :)
I agree it is, but those aren't factors immigrants usually take into consideration. For instance, The Netherlands is nothing special architecture wise and our biggest cultural contributions of the last century are broodje kroket and legal prostitution. Refugees / immigrants come here for social security, safety and tolerance, not the nice forests and gothic style cathedrals.
 

Adisa

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Ehh, we like shitting on each other, it's the Hungarian pastime. But the average Hungarian isn't that much different to your average European person. We're less conscious about democratic values than, say, the Dutch or the Swedish but apart from that...
Didn't mean any offence. Tbf, she has a dim view of most people.
 

Siorac

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I'm not here to defend this guy but I don't think he's far right at all. Nationalistic yes, xenophobic certainly, but that's not the same thing.

Also, can't seem to find anything about him making anti semitic comments or endorsements? Would somebody possibly point me in the right direction?

Again, I'm not standing up for Orban, I know very little about him. It does strike me however that the left is trying to use this to make Labour look better.



Hungary is beautiful, and Budapest is an architectural and cultural gem :)
I'm guessing it is because of the rampant anti-Soros campaign. Seething hatred of Soros usually comes with a nice dose of anti-semitism in Eastern European politics. But I don't think Orbán is an anti-semite.

By the way, this is how a "press conference" works in Hungary. The Economist asked a valid question:

 

12OunceEpilogue

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I've just returned from a trip to Budapest having booked it to coincide with the election by complete accident. It was interesting seeing the many many posters plastered across the city from various parties. The Jobbik ones looked very gaudy, like the X Factor promo material, while I had to laugh at the Fidesz poster with Orban and a few ministers with pairs of wire cutters 'shopped into their hands (at first glance I thought it was an opposition pisstake that had somehow been smuggled onto the streets :lol:).

Barring a short political and historical primer before I went (I particularly liked the ironic tale of Orban's under-used EU-funded train line in his home village) and visits to certain key landmarks such as the parliament building politics was far from my mind as I enjoyed what is a beautiful and fantastic city. However when I did briefly discuss politics with the locals they seemed disinterested ("no I didn't vote, I didn't have time"), resigned to Orban ruling for however long he fancies or unenthusiastically supportive of him as the lesser of two evils vs Jobbik.

Of course they may not have been keen to get into the nitty gritty of their situation with some random English prick, but I didn't get the feeling there was mass revulsion towards Orban from the populace.

EDIT: I've just realised I've been very stupid; the wirecutter picture is a Fidesz creation depicting Soros and other rivals opening the borders to immigrants. The point that it looks cheap and silly stands.
 

Abizzz

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its difficult because of the bureaucratic incompetence of the EU , it works well for Australia for example
Works so well they need to abuse basic human rights to work their refugee policy.
 

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I talked about the state-funded work program earlier in this thread, in reply to SwansonTache.

Healthcare? In the election campaign Orbán did not mention the word in any of his interviews. Seriously. Not once. Which more or less reflects the last 8 years. They've pretty much done nothing. The country is still losing doctors and nurses at an alarming rate because they are paid a lot better in Western countries. They haven't made things worse I suppose.

There had been a massive centralization effort in education. Certain functions had been moved from schools to regional offices that were also responsible for budgeting for all schools. This was pretty much a complete failure and has been partly reverted since. Either religious studies or secular "ethics" studies are now mandatory; in many schools pupils and parents are pressured to choose the religious option. Children have more classes than ever before, they spend over 30 hours in classes every week.

The school textbook market has been aggressively cornered and nationalised: instead of schools being able to freely choose between the ratified and accepted textbooks of private publishers, they can now only use the textbooks of the state-owned publishers. There was no debate, Parliament accepted the law two days after it was submitted even though the government's own lawyers noted that the planned legislation violates EU directives in multiple ways. The new textbooks also have a clear ideological direction; politically "trustworthy" people became the leading figures of the new publisher.

The government is also aggressively pushing out CEU, one of Budapest's most important educational institutions, because of its alleged ties to György Soros. I wrote about this, too, in this thread :)

Economically, it's a mixed bag. After the heights of the financial crisis, with mortgages and other loans based on foreign currency skyrocketing out of control, they turned these into forint-based loans, partly financed by new taxes on the banking sector. This you can call a leftist move. They reduced national debt by nationalising the mandatory private pension funds introduced in the nineties. They cut spending on the social safety net but poured massive money into the restructured state TV and into building tons of football stadiums, including one in Orbán's own backyard - it's a modern stadium with a capacity of 3500 in a village of 1500. The biggest problem economically is that everything is heavily dependent on political capital. Big multinational corporations were kept happy, mostly, but smaller companies have to face a very unpredictable environment where they simply must garner the favour of the regime. There is no fair competition.

They modernised certain aspects of bureaucracy so for example submitting your tax report is easier than ever, as well as things like changing your place of residence, acquiring new personal documents, those things. That's quite good.

They are aggressively trying to invade the judicial branch, trying to influence who can become a judge; they mean to create an administrative tribunal where the judges would be senior administrative officers, loyal to the Fidesz government. They eroded all the other democratic institutions, they are taking over the media - today it has been announced that a major opposition newspaper as well as a radio cannot continue to operate because of lack of finances - in its entirety, changed the consitution and the election system to favour the strongest party. They placed their party soldiers into the leadership of all important democratic and/or regulatory bodies and organisations. They have done massive damage by systematically destroying democratic values; their communication strategy intentionally devalues these in favour of "order" and "defending Hungary". In my opinion, these are historic crimes which set the country back by decades.
I'm sorry for not paying attention to what you wrote. I tend to write without having read all the thread. To be honest, I like the part of education you've told, with mandatory studies and the same books for everybody.
About the work system, I imagine that it must be some limit when it comes to rejecting work, although for what you said, in Hungary case is very drastic.

The issue of controlling the judges and changing the constitution or the electoral system looks worse
 

Siorac

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I've just returned from a trip to Budapest having booked it to coincide with the election by complete accident. It was interesting seeing the many many posters plastered across the city from various parties. The Jobbik ones looked very gaudy, like the X Factor promo material, while I had to laugh at the Fidesz poster with Orban and a few ministers with pairs of wire cutters 'shopped into their hands (at first glance I thought it was an opposition pisstake that had somehow been smuggled onto the streets :lol:).

Barring a short political and historical primer before I went (I particularly liked the ironic tale of Orban's under-used EU-funded train line in his home village) and visits to certain key landmarks such as the parliament building politics was far from my mind as I enjoyed what is a beautiful and fantastic city. However when I did briefly discuss politics with the locals they seemed disinterested ("no I didn't vote, I didn't have time"), resigned to Orban ruling for however long he fancies or unenthusiastically supportive of him as the lesser of two evils vs Jobbik.

Of course they may not have been keen to get into the nitty gritty of their situation with some random English prick, but I didn't get the feeling there was mass revulsion towards Orban from the populace.

EDIT: I've just realised I've been very stupid; the wirecutter picture is a Fidesz creation depicting Soros and other rivals opening the borders to immigrants. The point that it looks cheap and silly stands.
Funny thing about those posters is that originally their caption said "They would cut the fence together". But opposing parties sued Fidesz for that because neither of them want to actually open the border fence - so the posters remained and the captions were changed to "Let's stop the agents of Soros".

Not sure about mass revulsion elsewhere but Fidesz clearly lost Budapest. Out of 18 constituencies they only won 6, the other 12 were won by the left (so not Jobbik). That's my consolation prize: at least I live in the city that keeps rejecting them.
 

Siorac

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I'm sorry for not paying attention to what you wrote. I tend to write without having read all the thread. To be honest, I like the part of education you've told, with mandatory studies and the same books for everybody.
About the work system, I imagine that it must be some limit when it comes to rejecting work, although for what you said, in Hungary case is very drastic.

The issue of controlling the judges and changing the constitution or the electoral system looks worse
Trust me, the education reform is pretty bad, too. Forced nationalisation, terrible, politically driven textbooks, chaos in the ordering and shipping process. School textbooks used to be heavily regulated anyway so this was move was mostly about political and business interests as opposed to some genuine attempt at equality.
 

JPRouve

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Oh, I know what he is talking about. But the lack of morality isn't even the problem here, the EU doesn't have the tools to do it. The EU isn't a country, it doesn't have a land, it doesn't have a border police or a police and no EU country will let them use their territory or forces to do that when they can do it themselves and don't want to in the first place. That's why I said that it was a misguided comparison before even getting into the Australian solution or the supposed bureaucracy incompetence. There is a clear and obvious sovereignty issue when you compare Australia with a political union, one isn't equal to the other.
 

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Funny thing about those posters is that originally their caption said "They would cut the fence together". But opposing parties sued Fidesz for that because neither of them want to actually open the border fence - so the posters remained and the captions were changed to "Let's stop the agents of Soros".

Not sure about mass revulsion elsewhere but Fidesz clearly lost Budapest. Out of 18 constituencies they only won 6, the other 12 were won by the left (so not Jobbik). That's my consolation prize: at least I live in the city that keeps rejecting them.
Yes those posters were ridiculous (now I've realised what they actually depict :nervous:) and mine was by no means in-depth polling. I just got to chatting with a couple of taxi drivers, a couple in a bar and a publican who seemed at various stages of apathy with the whole thing. I fully imagined the more cosmopolitan people in the capital would be less likely to go for Fidesz and Jobbik than those from farther afield but the very brief impression I got was of disengagement.
 

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its difficult because of the bureaucratic incompetence of the EU , it works well for Australia for example
Australia, with it's literal concentration camps for refugees, is not an example to follow. Are you a sociopath or something?
 

botond

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Australia, with it's literal concentration camps for refugees, is not an example to follow. Are you a sociopath or something?
you are not a refugee after you crossed 5 safe countries , not even after you crossed one
 

JPRouve

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Yeah that's a nice cop out for a country that isn't safe for refugees itself...
That's also inaccurate. Refugee is a status attributed by a country and in practice every country has its own criteria. So while only the first safe territory has the obligation to receive an asylum request(if he signed the 51 refugee convention and or the ECHR), anyone can grant that status.
 

Abizzz

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you are not a refugee after you crossed 5 safe countries , not even after you crossed one
Again, that's a easy cop out. Especially for a country like Australia that sees no problem in creating refugees 5000+ miles away, they can't shed themselves of responsibility by virtue of geography.
 

africanspur

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you are not a refugee after you crossed 5 safe countries , not even after you crossed one
This is bullshit.

I've worked a lot with refugees in the UK, many of them with their status under threat because of the home office trying to deport them back to Italy or Greece.

These people have had horrific lives and journeys. Italy and Greece may be safe for them but they have nothing resembling a life there. I don't necessarily blame those countries, they don't have the resources to adequately deal with these people. This is not to mention how they are often treated in apparently 'safe' countries neighbouring their own.

I get so frustrated with how people talk about refugees. They genuinely think that it is easy to flee their countries, such a simple decision. It isn't. At all.
 

Pagh Wraith

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My knowledge of Hungarian politics is limited but in general I can only welcome the victories of anti EU candidates and parties, whether left or right. The sovereigny of the European nation states has to be protected above all and it is being undermined by the interventionist monster the EU has become. There are now talks of a common EU army which should scare the crap out of anyone.
 

Siorac

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My knowledge of Hungarian politics is limited but in general I can only welcome the victories of anti EU candidates and parties, whether left or right. The sovereigny of the European nation states has to be protected above all and it is being undermined by the interventionist monster the EU has become. There are now talks of a common EU army which should scare the crap out of anyone.
Why?
 

Abizzz

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My knowledge of Hungarian politics is limited but in general I can only welcome the victories of anti EU candidates and parties, whether left or right. The sovereigny of the European nation states has to be protected above all and it is being undermined by the interventionist monster the EU has become. There are now talks of a common EU army which should scare the crap out of anyone.
Yeah because anti EU candidates have done such a beautiful job protecting their countries sovereignty from Russian influence :houllier::lol:.
 

FlawlessThaw

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Yeah because anti EU candidates have done such a beautiful job protecting their countries sovereignty from Russian influence :houllier::lol:.
:lol: Add on the fact that none of them have the guts to actually propose leaving the EU after the shitshow Brexit has become. Even Le Pen had said if she had won France would have remained in the EU and tried to reform it.
 

Pagh Wraith

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Yeah because anti EU candidates have done such a beautiful job protecting their countries sovereignty from Russian influence :houllier::lol:.
That is their choice, though. I don't care what Orban does in Hungary and neither should Brussels. If he doesn't want to take a single refugee, then that is his prerogative. As a German I find it deeply worrying how much power we have gained again and how we seem to think it's okay to bully the smaller nations into following our lead. For that reason alone I think it's a good thing that there are people like Orban who won't give in to that.
 

Abizzz

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That is their choice, though. I don't care what Orban does in Hungary and neither should Brussels. If he doesn't want to take a single refugee, then that is his prerogative.
Right, and integrating into the EU was forced onto which member state exactly? Every single member of the EU is there by their own choice...
 

Siorac

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Because it is never a good idea to give more and more power to big centralised governments.
Which applies to Orbán and Fidesz beautifully. It's really a terrible idea to give them even more power. So please try to forget your simplistic "anti-EU = good" type of thinking.

I don't think the nation state is a wonderful invention that should be preserved at all costs btw. I'm open to other ideas of governing that do not fuel petty nationalism.
 

Pagh Wraith

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Right, and integrating into the EU was forced onto which member state exactly? Every single member of the EU is there by their own choice...
EU membership brings certain benefits (though mainly because non-members are being discriminated against as we can clearly see right in the treatment of the UK by Brussels). That doesn't mean the current state of the Union is something that should be accepted by all members. I oppose any intergoverenmental alliances that undermine national sovereignty and strongly believe that the single biggest factor in bringing nations peacefully together is unrestricted free trade and markets for which no political union is needed.

Which applies to Orbán and Fidesz beautifully. It's really a terrible idea to give them even more power. So please try to forget your simplistic "anti-EU = good" type of thinking.
Again, what happens in Hungary is no concern of mine. I couldn't care less if they elect an authoritarian socialist or a hardcore liberal. I don't have the right to tell the Hungarians what to do and neither has anyone else as long as they don't interfere in other countries affairs.
 

botond

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Right, and integrating into the EU was forced onto which member state exactly? Every single member of the EU is there by their own choice...

right , and integrating means eu has control over your borders and change your demography as it pleases ?
 

JPRouve

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right , and integrating means eu has control over your borders and change your demography as it pleases ?
The EU doesn't have control over your borders.
 

Abizzz

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right , and integrating means eu has control over your borders and change your demography as it pleases ?
Only if you get your information from the Dailymail, Farage and Boris Johnson.
EU membership brings certain benefits (though mainly because non-members are being discriminated against as we can clearly see right in the treatment of the UK by Brussels). That doesn't mean the current state of the Union is something that should be accepted by all members.
Non-members aren't being discriminated at all. They simply aren't members, what's so hard to grasp about that? Am I being discriminated if I show up at OT and demand to be let in despite not having a ticket?

I'm not saying that the EU is perfect in it's current state, it will need to evolve. If you want to see how a equivalent free trade agreement works without the political union have a look at nafta (Which is still better than nothing but creates it's own problems, hence why a clown could recently become president on the promise to build a wall).
 

FlawlessThaw

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Non-members being discriminated against :Lol: if that is your actual viewpoint @Pagh Wraith then you should be firmly against Brexit and actively asking for more nations to be included in the European Union.
 

Pagh Wraith

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Only if you get your information from the Dailymail, Farage and Boris Johnson.

Non-members aren't being discriminated at all. They simply aren't members, what's so hard to grasp about that? Am I being discriminated if I show up at OT and demand to be let in despite not having a ticket?

I'm not saying that the EU is perfect in it's current state, it will need to evolve. If you want to see how a equivalent free trade agreement works without the political union have a look at nafta (Which is still better than nothing but creates it's own problems, hence why a clown could recently become president on the promise to build a wall).
A free trade agreement is an oxymoron. No true capitalist or supporter of free markets is in favour of treaties such as Nafta or TTIP.
 

Abizzz

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A free trade agreement is an oxymoron. No true capitalist or supporter of free markets is in favour of treaties such as Nafta or TTIP.
Care to elaborate?

The second sentence I won't argue about, that's your personal opinion, it suffices to say that I don't share it. (For the record I was against TTIP too).
 

devilish

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As a Maltese I can say that no European country want to takes its share of refugees and asylum seekers. God knows how many times Italy, Spain, Greece and us challenged the horrible Dublin regulations only to be thrown out with pocket money in our hands. Luckily, other countries had softened their stance lately especially Germany and Sweden. However, most European countries (inc UK) are quite happy to let us nanny all immigrants on their behalf.

The funny thing is that this will lead to a chain reaction. If no one wants to help out then people will start wondering why on earth should we (South Europeans) accept their people as immigrants in our land when they don't want to share our refugees and asylum seekers. Then they will ask why freedom of goods should exist with these countries since such freedom allowed industries to move there to the detriment of Italian workers. Ultimately they will be asking why should they risk Russia's fury to defend these 'pricks' and not simple turn their back while Russia invades them again. Egoism breeds egoism. If the likes of Orban insist on seeing the EU as cash cow were you send your people and cash up the EU cheques then soon enough they will have to go toe to toe with the likes of Salvini, Le Pen and co who would be more then thrilled to kick them back at the wrong side of the iron curtain.

In my opinion it would be a tragic set of events. Europe has been at war for centuries and the last thing we need is to fall in the nationalist trap again.
 

Kaos

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Free and open immigration is a unworkable concept anyway. EU should realize that.
Bit late to respond to this, but right now a fair number of EU countries including the UK are lining up to bomb Syria. That suggests to me there's another underlying problem in respect to mass migration wouldn't you say?
 

Siorac

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As a Maltese I can say that no European country want to takes its share of refugees and asylum seekers. God knows how many times Italy, Spain, Greece and us challenged the horrible Dublin regulations only to be thrown out with pocket money in our hands. Luckily, other countries had softened their stance lately especially Germany and Sweden. However, most European countries (inc UK) are quite happy to let us nanny all immigrants on their behalf.

The funny thing is that this will lead to a chain reaction. If no one wants to help out then people will start wondering why on earth should we (South Europeans) accept their people as immigrants in our land when they don't want to share our refugees and asylum seekers. Then they will ask why freedom of goods should exist with these countries since such freedom allowed industries to move there to the detriment of Italian workers. Ultimately they will be asking why should they risk Russia's fury to defend these 'pricks' and not simple turn their back while Russia invades them again. Egoism breeds egoism. If the likes of Orban insist on seeing the EU as cash cow were you send your people and cash up the EU cheques then soon enough they will have to go toe to toe with the likes of Salvini, Le Pen and co who would be more then thrilled to kick them back at the wrong side of the iron curtain.

In my opinion it would be a tragic set of events. Europe has been at war for centuries and the last thing we need is to fall in the nationalist trap again.
Le Pen loves Orbán, come on. They are on the same side.
 

JPRouve

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Le Pen loves Orbán, come on. They are on the same side.
Careful with that one, she says everything and its opposite. And her party doesn't like Eastern European immigrants.