Far right & anti Semitic leaders win Hungarian election

devilish

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Le Pen loves Orbán, come on. They are on the same side.
Le Pen is like all nationalists including Orban and the Brexiters. They put their own country first and then they expect everyone to just love them and accommodate them by offering a close and deep one sided relationship. That's not how nationalism or politics work. If someone put his country's interest first then there's little to no motivation for others not to do the same thing.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Bit late to respond to this, but right now a fair number of EU countries including the UK are lining up to bomb Syria. That suggests to me there's another underlying problem in respect to mass migration wouldn't you say?
Economic vs Asylum seekers. There's a big difference.

Anyway there is no 'right side' in Syria as all parties are equally guilty of committing war crimes. I'm not supportive of any bombing attempts too. It's just a big clusterfeck and the common people being cannon fodder. Sad.
 

devilish

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Bit late to respond to this, but right now a fair number of EU countries including the UK are lining up to bomb Syria. That suggests to me there's another underlying problem in respect to mass migration wouldn't you say?
The funny thing is that the trigger friendly US and UK are the first to shy away from taking these people in their own lands. They cause/fuel wars and we pay the price for it
 

Adisa

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High time the EU starts expelling some countries.
 

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Hungary passes 'Stop Soros' law banning help for migrants
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44546030

The Hungarian parliament has passed new legislation that criminalises lawyers and activists who help asylum seekers.

Anyone "facilitating illegal immigration" will face a year in jail.

Viktor Orban's government has dubbed the legislation the "Stop Soros law", after the billionaire philanthropist it accuses of supporting Muslim migrants.

The vote in Budapest came hours after a number of European Union leaders agreed to hold crisis talks on how to overhaul asylum rules.

Hungary says immigration threatens its national security, but its hardline stance and new law have faced widespread international criticism.

Under the new law, anyone could be jailed for working for or with non-governmental organisations that are involved in helping or campaigning for asylum seekers. Human rights groups insist all they are trying to do is help people who have been allowed in Hungary legally apply for asylum.

The measures also tighten restrictions on asylum, so that anyone attempting to enter Hungary from a third country where they are not directly threatened with persecution cannot claim protection.
 

Siorac

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You should see the World Cup coverage here. It's on state TV and at half time there's always a one-minute newsblock. And always, like clockwork, three out of four stories are about migration. Always. Göbbels would be proud.
 

Adisa

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You should see the World Cup coverage here. It's on state TV and at half time there's always a one-minute newsblock. And always, like clockwork, three out of four stories are about migration. Always. Göbbels would be proud.
Incredibly dangerous.
 

2cents

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Thread/

 

Siorac

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That Soros fella must rule the world in secrecy.
I'm sure Orbán and his ilk don't actually believe that but they sure as hell try to make their followers believe that. He plays the Goldstein role from 1984 - the all-powerful enemy, the one who represents evil, who is the "face" of all that is wrong, the intended focal point for the masses' anger and hate. It has to be personalised - railing against liberalism and other abstract concepts like that mean very little to some little old churchgoing lady in a rural village.
 

Adisa

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It's absolutely frightening how the West is dabbling in fascism on multiple fronts.
The generation that survived the war has gone and you get the feeling we are turning back the clock.
 

FlawlessThaw

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I loved Budapest but yeah think I'll avoid going to Hungary for a while.
 

Siorac

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I loved Budapest but yeah think I'll avoid going to Hungary for a while.
Don't imagine that the Secret Police is taking people away in black cars to dark cellars where they never come back from and everyone is scared of everyone. It's still a normal country and you are free to talk about how much you hate Orbán and his cronies.

Only thing is, if you do it in a newspaper or TV then that paper or TV better have some foreign benefactors who keep financing it and won't sell it to one of their gang.
 

FlawlessThaw

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Don't imagine that the Secret Police is taking people away in black cars to dark cellars where they never come back from and everyone is scared of everyone. It's still a normal country and you are free to talk about how much you hate Orbán and his cronies.

Only thing is, if you do it in a newspaper or TV then that paper or TV better have some foreign benefactors who keep financing it and won't sell it to one of their gang.
More the racial element though Budapest within as a city should be fine. Rise of far right nationalism tends to beget an openness in racists.

Anyway tourism in Budapest is booming and so I doubt politics will have any effect.
 

Charlie Foley

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Budapest is a great city to visit, I'd love to go back.

Page one of this thread :lol:
Nothing funnier than someone on the internet proffering their opinion on something like they know what they're talking about, only to backtrack to "I read an article so..." :lol:
 

Siorac

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@Siorac do you know what's going on with Ukraine/Hungary?
Our government is so far up Putin's arse that they probably forgot what light feels like. That was always going to lead to tensions with Ukraine; the specific events - the whole dual citizenship debacle - is almost irrelevant.

I wish we didn't commit ourselves to Putin. As an EU country, this is a staggeringly bad idea. Hopefully, Orbán and his cronies will hang for their crimes one day (a man can dream, OK?) and then we can stay the feck out of what Russia and Ukraine do to each other.

(this doesn't mean that Ukraine aren't acting like bellends in this whole thing. They are acting exactly as the Hungarian goverment does when it comes to perceived threats to our vaunted sovereignty. Their feckery is basically the same as the anti-migrant rhetoric and legislation of our very own government)
 

PedroMendez

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Our government is so far up Putin's arse that they probably forgot what light feels like. That was always going to lead to tensions with Ukraine; the specific events - the whole dual citizenship debacle - is almost irrelevant.

I wish we didn't commit ourselves to Putin. As an EU country, this is a staggeringly bad idea. Hopefully, Orbán and his cronies will hang for their crimes one day (a man can dream, OK?) and then we can stay the feck out of what Russia and Ukraine do to each other.

(this doesn't mean that Ukraine aren't acting like bellends in this whole thing. They are acting exactly as the Hungarian goverment does when it comes to perceived threats to our vaunted sovereignty. Their feckery is basically the same as the anti-migrant rhetoric and legislation of our very own government)
cheers.
 

VidaRed

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It's absolutely frightening how the West is dabbling in fascism on multiple fronts.
The generation that survived the war has gone and you get the feeling we are turning back the clock.
Not at all surprising. Take away the high standard of living/comforts that resulted because of the disproportionate wealth the west sucked from the rest of the world during the colonial age and you get a populace that throws the mask away and reveals its real face- illiberal, anti-diversity, right-wing. I predict that in the next couple of decades every country in Europe will have a right-wing illiberal government.
 

Adisa

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Not at all surprising. Take away the high standard of living/comforts that resulted because of the disproportionate wealth the west sucked from the rest of the world during the colonial age and you get a populace that throws the mask away and reveals its real face- illiberal, anti-diversity, right-wing. I predict that in the next couple of decades every country in Europe will have a right-wing illiberal government.
Then war is inevitable.
 

Synco

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Not at all surprising. Take away the high standard of living/comforts that resulted because of the disproportionate wealth the west sucked from the rest of the world during the colonial age and you get a populace that throws the mask away and reveals its real face- illiberal, anti-diversity, right-wing. I predict that in the next couple of decades every country in Europe will have a right-wing illiberal government.
Broad sweep, but I think there's a lot of truth about Western social democracies in this.
 

Siorac

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So I've decided to launch a public service here on Redcafe: regular hilarious updates on the farce that is Hungary right now! Since all the foreign media seems to talk about is the government's stance on migration, I'd offer some insights into their other endeavours - which are highly amusing if you happen to live anywhere else in the world.

In today's episode, we're coming to you straight from the Parliament. Opposition MP - former university professor - asked the Secretary for Education if the government plans to withdraw state funding from higher education.

Secretary for Education: *proceeds to read opposition MP's poor ratings from MarkMyProfessor.com (a site where students can rate their teachers)*

Opposition MP: u wot m8

Well, actually, origo.hu - acquired by Fidesz money recently, much like most of the Hungarian media - published an article in June, THREE YEARS after said MP retired from teaching. The article proceeds to cite reviews submitted in the week before the article was published - again, THREE YEARS after the prof stopped actually teaching. So origo, once a respectable news website of Hungary, basically created a bunch of fake reviews and then wrote an article about them for the purposes of an incredibly bizarre character assassination.
 

HarlanEiffler

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wow... And thank you for the update, much appreciated.

I will do the same for Austria.

'member when our minister of interior decided to do a razzia in the domestic secret service, responsible for (among other things) monitoring extreme right wing and violent hate groups? No? There is an investigation going on into the matter right now, and it is absolute bonkers. Democracy and rule of law die everyday.

'Member when our ministry of interior sent out a communique to the police telling them that they should restrict information to 'critical' media? In the same communique the ministry urged the police to communicate the ethnic background of perpetrators, especially if the crimes are against bodily integrity (i.e. rape, sexual assault, murder etc.).

Also an Austrian journalist is now suing a fake news propaganda shitshow, after user comments threatened him with murder on that website. You know what the former owner of that website does today? He's the communications officer for the minister of the interior.
 

Siorac

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wow... And thank you for the update, much appreciated.

I will do the same for Austria.

'member when our minister of interior decided to do a razzia in the domestic secret service, responsible for (among other things) monitoring extreme right wing and violent hate groups? No? There is an investigation going on into the matter right now, and it is absolute bonkers. Democracy and rule of law die everyday.

'Member when our ministry of interior sent out a communique to the police telling them that they should restrict information to 'critical' media? In the same communique the ministry urged the police to communicate the ethnic background of perpetrators, especially if the crimes are against bodily integrity (i.e. rape, sexual assault, murder etc.).

Also an Austrian journalist is now suing a fake news propaganda shitshow, after user comments threatened him with murder on that website. You know what the former owner of that website does today? He's the communications officer for the minister of the interior.
Boy does that mode of operation sound familiar...
 

Siorac

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But experts say at least 20,000 people are homeless across the country.
More like 30,000, realistically. And homeless people are already disappearing from the streets, basically a day after the law came in to effect because the police treats this obvious and imminent threat to our wellbeing as its highest priority.

Seriously, it's inhumane. They have been trying to do this for a while but the Constitutional Court threw similar laws out twice. After winning the election with a supermajority once again this year they amended the constitution specifically for this, something they had probably forgot about back in 2010 when they had rewritten the whole thing anyway.

Also, the article doesn't mention that if someone is caught "inhabiting a public space" their possessions can be confiscated and either stored or destroyed (those possessions that are deemed to be losing value quickly, like food). The original plan was that homeless people would have to actually PAY for having their possessions stored OR destroyed (that's right, they could have been forced to pay for police destroying their stuff) but they would have received compensation for destroyed possessions. Three days before the law was enacted they quickly issued a government order to change the procedure: now homeless people do not have to pay for the privilege of having their stuff stored and/or destroyed but they do not receive any compensation, either!

It gets better: originally, the law ordered the implementation of storage places with 24 hour availability - that has been removed. Local councils or the police are tasked with providing storage capacity - but they receive no additional funds for this function.

Even better: the government ordered the Ministry of Human Resources to look into the quality and availability of homeless shelters. AFTER the fecking law had been enacted.
 

The Purley King

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More like 30,000, realistically. And homeless people are already disappearing from the streets, basically a day after the law came in to effect because the police treats this obvious and imminent threat to our wellbeing as its highest priority.

Seriously, it's inhumane. They have been trying to do this for a while but the Constitutional Court threw similar laws out twice. After winning the election with a supermajority once again this year they amended the constitution specifically for this, something they had probably forgot about back in 2010 when they had rewritten the whole thing anyway.

Also, the article doesn't mention that if someone is caught "inhabiting a public space" their possessions can be confiscated and either stored or destroyed (those possessions that are deemed to be losing value quickly, like food). The original plan was that homeless people would have to actually PAY for having their possessions stored OR destroyed (that's right, they could have been forced to pay for police destroying their stuff) but they would have received compensation for destroyed possessions. Three days before the law was enacted they quickly issued a government order to change the procedure: now homeless people do not have to pay for the privilege of having their stuff stored and/or destroyed but they do not receive any compensation, either!

It gets better: originally, the law ordered the implementation of storage places with 24 hour availability - that has been removed. Local councils or the police are tasked with providing storage capacity - but they receive no additional funds for this function.

Even better: the government ordered the Ministry of Human Resources to look into the quality and availability of homeless shelters. AFTER the fecking law had been enacted.
Wow. That is fecked up. Thanks for the explanation.
 

Adisa

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More like 30,000, realistically. And homeless people are already disappearing from the streets, basically a day after the law came in to effect because the police treats this obvious and imminent threat to our wellbeing as its highest priority.

Seriously, it's inhumane. They have been trying to do this for a while but the Constitutional Court threw similar laws out twice. After winning the election with a supermajority once again this year they amended the constitution specifically for this, something they had probably forgot about back in 2010 when they had rewritten the whole thing anyway.

Also, the article doesn't mention that if someone is caught "inhabiting a public space" their possessions can be confiscated and either stored or destroyed (those possessions that are deemed to be losing value quickly, like food). The original plan was that homeless people would have to actually PAY for having their possessions stored OR destroyed (that's right, they could have been forced to pay for police destroying their stuff) but they would have received compensation for destroyed possessions. Three days before the law was enacted they quickly issued a government order to change the procedure: now homeless people do not have to pay for the privilege of having their stuff stored and/or destroyed but they do not receive any compensation, either!

It gets better: originally, the law ordered the implementation of storage places with 24 hour availability - that has been removed. Local councils or the police are tasked with providing storage capacity - but they receive no additional funds for this function.

Even better: the government ordered the Ministry of Human Resources to look into the quality and availability of homeless shelters. AFTER the fecking law had been enacted.
Yup, sounds like a right wing government for sure .
 

Siorac

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Welcome to today's episode of the Farce That is Hungary!

The latest news is that the Foundation for Popularisation of Law Enforcement (oh yes, that is a thing!) issued certificates to the President of Parliament and to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, for, and I quote, "Serving the Homeland" and for "regarding crime prevention as highly important".

But that's not the best part! Look at the certificates themselves!



The bloke on the right of both certificates, the one who has seemingly consumed several pig farms in their entirety recently, is the president of the foundation. Because of course such a loyal soldier of the regime has to promote himself in every possible way!

Bonus: under the pictures it says that they were issued in the "cradle of Christian Hungary", referring to the town of Esztergom. Such poetic beauty.
 

Adisa

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One question @Siorac are Hungarians wise to this nonsense?
I know the government win a supermajority, is there any evidence it's popularity is on the wane?
 

Siorac

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One question @Siorac are Hungarians wise to this nonsense?
I know the government win a supermajority, is there any evidence it's popularity is on the wane?
According to surveys, they lost about half a million voters since the elections but that means very little because:
1) that's pretty much standard voter behaviour
2) it's the amount of uncertain voters that has increased which is normal when the next general election is four years away...

Apart from that it's hard to say. I barely know anyone who voted for them - if only the people I personally know were eligible to vote, Fidesz might have trouble clearing the threshold to get into parliament - but then I live in Budapest, I have a university education, I work in tech etc. In this sense, Hungary is deeply polarised. Budapest is its own little island in a sea of orange and pretty much all data points to the same thing: the less developed a region is, the more popular Fidesz is there.

In Budapest, out of 18 electoral districts Fidesz won 6. To illustrate how extreme that is: we have a total of 106 individual electoral districts in the country and Fidesz won 91 of those. Of the 15 they lost, 12 were in Budapest. Not even London is that different from the rest of the UK as far as I'm aware.

Fidesz got only one-third of their votes from Budapest and the regional capitals. 25% of their votes came from villages, the rest from smaller towns. In many small villages they get ridiculous majorities, like 80% and above. These are the places where people pretty much only watch the state TV (which has been a propaganda machine for eight years now) or maybe one of the big two of the commercial TV stations - one of which also happens to be the government's propaganda machine now.

Tens and possibly hundreds of thousands of people are dependent on communal labour, something that can be controlled entirely by Fidesz mayors in these villages. There have been many, many stories of mayors taking revenge on someone by taking that away from them, depriving them of their only income. Obviously that is illegal but that does not always stop them. And often even an implied threat is enough to make everyone fall in line.

So yeah, it's a desperate situation. Change is very, very unlikely because, frankly, there is very little appreciation for abstract things like democracy and the rule of law and freedom of speech. These values are simply not important for the average Hungarian, and the systematic destruction of democratic institutions simply does not register. Corruption - which is also systematic and open now - is waved away with "every politician steals anyway" and "at least they don't take the money out of the country" (which isn't true but anyway) and there are plenty of people who are genuinely terrified of non-existent immigrants whom they never met and never will.
 

Adisa

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According to surveys, they lost about half a million voters since the elections but that means very little because:
1) that's pretty much standard voter behaviour
2) it's the amount of uncertain voters that has increased which is normal when the next general election is four years away...

Apart from that it's hard to say. I barely know anyone who voted for them - if only the people I personally know were eligible to vote, Fidesz might have trouble clearing the threshold to get into parliament - but then I live in Budapest, I have a university education, I work in tech etc. In this sense, Hungary is deeply polarised. Budapest is its own little island in a sea of orange and pretty much all data points to the same thing: the less developed a region is, the more popular Fidesz is there.

In Budapest, out of 18 electoral districts Fidesz won 6. To illustrate how extreme that is: we have a total of 106 individual electoral districts in the country and Fidesz won 91 of those. Of the 15 they lost, 12 were in Budapest. Not even London is that different from the rest of the UK as far as I'm aware.

Fidesz got only one-third of their votes from Budapest and the regional capitals. 25% of their votes came from villages, the rest from smaller towns. In many small villages they get ridiculous majorities, like 80% and above. These are the places where people pretty much only watch the state TV (which has been a propaganda machine for eight years now) or maybe one of the big two of the commercial TV stations - one of which also happens to be the government's propaganda machine now.

Tens and possibly hundreds of thousands of people are dependent on communal labour, something that can be controlled entirely by Fidesz mayors in these villages. There have been many, many stories of mayors taking revenge on someone by taking that away from them, depriving them of their only income. Obviously that is illegal but that does not always stop them. And often even an implied threat is enough to make everyone fall in line.

So yeah, it's a desperate situation. Change is very, very unlikely because, frankly, there is very little appreciation for abstract things like democracy and the rule of law and freedom of speech. These values are simply not important for the average Hungarian, and the systematic destruction of democratic institutions simply does not register. Corruption - which is also systematic and open now - is waved away with "every politician steals anyway" and "at least they don't take the money out of the country" (which isn't true but anyway) and there are plenty of people who are genuinely terrified of non-existent immigrants whom they never met and never will.
Thanks. Depressing read.