Federico Chiesa

In Rainbows

Full Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
5,602
He's only favourite due to playing for a far better club.
And also doing what he's doing at a younger age, and being the better dribbler (slightly).
 

Adnan

Talent Spotter
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
21,559
Location
United Kingdom, England
And also doing what he's doing at a younger age, and being the better dribbler (slightly).
I wouldn't say he's a better dribbler than Chiesa if i'm being honest mate. Also Sancho being younger and being exposed to a higher calibre of club is more to do with his unhappy situation and the knock down price he was available for at 17.
 

In Rainbows

Full Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
5,602
I wouldn't say he's a better dribbler than Chiesa if i'm being honest mate. Also Sancho being younger and being exposed to a higher calibre of club is more to do with his unhappy situation and the knock down price he was available for at 17.
Chiesa is a great dribbler, but Sancho is better slightly. In the league, Chiesa has averaged 2-2.5 dribbles per game. Sancho has averaged 3 dribbles per game, all while doing it at a younger age. Make the comparison at the same age and it's clearly in Sancho's favor. Sancho is the superior technician when it comes to technical feet manipulating the ball, that helps in his dribbling in tight spaces.

Not sure how you're arguing against that.
 

Jerome Holland

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 10, 2018
Messages
147
Some of you probably react to his family name, and yes you're right - it's the son.

Another player from Serie A that I'm keeping my eyes on. I think he's got something special. Very intelligent and sophisticated player. Mostly played out wide. 19 years old. Will most likely be a top player in the coming years as he's already ahead of players his own age.
Well done Sir!! You saw the quality 3 years ago and today i think he is a world beater. Was watching the game against Milan yesterday and he was unplayable.
 

Adnan

Talent Spotter
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
21,559
Location
United Kingdom, England
Chiesa is a great dribbler, but Sancho is better slightly. In the league, Chiesa has averaged 2-2.5 dribbles per game. Sancho has averaged 3 dribbles per game, all while doing it at a younger age. Make the comparison at the same age and it's clearly in Sancho's favor. Sancho is the superior technician when it comes to technical feet manipulating the ball, that helps in his dribbling in tight spaces.
Sancho is playing for a much better team so he sees more of the ball hence having more dribbles. In that context Chiesa's dribbling is slightly better because he's playing for a team that avoided relegation on the final day of the 2018/19 season.

As a technician I also rate Chiesa higher. His first touch when taking long raking balls in his stride are absolutely jaw dropping and vids have been posted on here showing his unreal ball control. Chiesa is also noticeably better off the ball whether that be pressing from the front or tracking back. The Italians work rate/high energy, added to his natural flair/ability make him a better all round player IMO.
 

In Rainbows

Full Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
5,602
Sancho is playing for a much better team so he sees more of the ball hence having more dribbles. In that context Chiesa's dribbling is slightly better because he's playing for a team that avoided relegation on the final day of the 2018/19 season.

As a technician I also rate Chiesa higher. His first touch when taking long raking balls in his stride are absolutely jaw dropping and vids have been posted on here showing his unreal ball control. Chiesa is also noticeably better off the ball whether that be pressing from the front or tracking back. The Italians work rate/high energy, added to his natural flair/ability make him a better all round player IMO.
That's a poor excuse. If he sees more of the ball, why does he average fewer bad touches per game and gets dispossessed a fewer amount of times per game? Surely that should be in Chiesa's favor if he gets less of the ball which leads to less dribbles per game.

And I also rate Chiesa's first touch better, but not feet when dribbling. Sorry, but Sancho is clearly better in that area.
 

Adnan

Talent Spotter
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
21,559
Location
United Kingdom, England
That's a poor excuse. If he sees more of the ball, why does he average fewer bad touches per game and gets dispossessed a fewer amount of times per game? Surely that should be in Chiesa's favor if he gets less of the ball which leads to less dribbles per game.

And I also rate Chiesa's first touch better, but not feet when dribbling. Sorry, but Sancho is clearly better in that area.
Chiesa doesn't have as many options to link up with in comparison to Sancho who is playing for a team that dominates the ball against most teams in the Bundesliga. So you don't think Chiesa's dribbling stats would go up in a more dominant/attacking team?
 

In Rainbows

Full Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
5,602
Chiesa doesn't have as many options to link up with in comparison to Sancho who is playing for a team that dominates the ball against most teams in the Bundesliga. So you don't think Chiesa's dribbling stats would go up in a more dominant/attacking team?
It's a 1v1 scenario so no I wouldn't. Probably goals and assists would go up though. It's also possible for Sancho to improve on his dribbling stats and go up another level just like Chiesa's did when he got older. Sancho's body is going to be superior (compared to his 18-19 aged body) as he ages.
 

Adnan

Talent Spotter
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
21,559
Location
United Kingdom, England
It's a 1v1 scenario so no I wouldn't. Probably goals and assists would go up though. It's also possible for Sancho to improve on his dribbling stats and go up another level just like Chiesa's did when he got older. Sancho's body is going to be superior (compared to his 18-19 aged body) as he ages.
Chiesa played in a better team during the u21 tournament in the summer and his dribbling stats did go up at 3.3, so the evidence is there to suggest he will go up a level surrounded by better players.
 

SambaBoy

Full Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
3,683
Seems to have a Ronaldo-like penchant for just shooting from anywhere.

His dribbling and all round game is really impressive though, and he will be a great player for whoever gets him.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
7,341
Sancho has averaged 3 dribbles per game, all while doing it at a younger age. Make the comparison at the same age and it's clearly in Sancho's favor.
Tbh over the years young players tend to make more dribbles because they play fearless and the unknown factor. As they mature and defenders get to know what these players do with the addition of more pressure.
 

In Rainbows

Full Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
5,602
Chiesa played in a better team during the u21 tournament in the summer and his dribbling stats did go up at 3.3, so the evidence is there to suggest he will go up a level surrounded by better players.
You're using a different competition in which the sample size is very small. That is not proper evidence. And even if it was a larger sample size, it's a youth tournament in a way. Hazard averaged more dribbles as he aged. Pogba averaged more dribbles as he aged. Neymar averaged more as he aged. Chiesa averaged more dribbles as he aged.

This is why he's the favorite. Players improve, and I wouldn't be surprised if Sancho kicks it up another gear just as Chiesa did.
 

Bepi

Full Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2016
Messages
2,071
Location
Italy
Supports
Juventus
Pace merchant winger, not as prolific and influential as you would like him to be
 

Bepi

Full Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2016
Messages
2,071
Location
Italy
Supports
Juventus
New Berardi? (Whatever happened to him, btw?)
Berardi is 25 and still at home club Sassuolo and currently top scorer in the league after six games :wenger: . Good shout, though, think of both players as fully capable of strings of absolutely brilliant games, followed by longer stints being meh or out of sight. Bernardeschi is 25 as well and another one in the same bracket, just a bit more mature and structured after two years at Juve. On the other hand, Chiesa is not 22 yet and Ribery’s influence could really help him develop further this season, so jury is still out on his ceiling (stat for thought: 15 caps & 0 goals for Italy).
 

Adnan

Talent Spotter
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
21,559
Location
United Kingdom, England
You're using a different competition in which the sample size is very small. That is not proper evidence. And even if it was a larger sample size, it's a youth tournament in a way. Hazard averaged more dribbles as he aged. Pogba averaged more dribbles as he aged. Neymar averaged more as he aged. Chiesa averaged more dribbles as he aged.

This is why he's the favorite. Players improve, and I wouldn't be surprised if Sancho kicks it up another gear just as Chiesa did.
There's no set criteria here. I gave you a example of Chiesa's dribbling stats surrounded by better players in a tournament which involved players from a major European League like Spain because that's the evidence I have at hand.

There's also many players who didn't kick on after showing high potential in their formative years. So to think, things are going to go in a linear fashion is very naive.
 

SquishyMcSquish

New Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2018
Messages
8,198
Supports
Tottenham
Chiesa is good but not even on Sancho's level as a talent ffs.

Sancho in 6 games this season has set up more goals than Chiesa did in the league in all of 18/19. Different levels.

And quality of players around you obviously does matter and obviously will impact that, but not to that extent, for a player who is a few years younger. Barring any horrible injuries any comparison between Sancho & Chiesa will look very silly in a few years time.

Sancho is genuine Ballon d'or material and will compete for it with Mbappe as it stands. Generational talent.
 

Adnan

Talent Spotter
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
21,559
Location
United Kingdom, England
Chiesa is good but not even on Sancho's level as a talent ffs.

Sancho in 6 games this season has set up more goals than Chiesa did in the league in all of 18/19. Different levels.

And quality of players around you obviously does matter and obviously will impact that, but not to that extent, for a player who is a few years younger. Barring any horrible injuries any comparison between Sancho & Chiesa will look very silly in a few years time.

Sancho is genuine Ballon d'or material and will compete for it with Mbappe as it stands. Generational talent.
This is exactly what was written about a young Mario Goetze who was putting up better numbers than even Messi at a similar age.
 

SquishyMcSquish

New Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2018
Messages
8,198
Supports
Tottenham
This is exactly what was written about a young Mario Goetze who was putting up better numbers than even Messi at a similar age.
Mario Gotze was superbly talented but a number of issues (including injuries) stopped him from fulfilling that talent. Messi was an incredible talent who was 1 in 2 from a very early age.

Federico Chiesa isn't better at basically anything than Sancho. I honestly can't see what player you're watching compared to me, even if we disregard stats .. so we'll basically just have to agree to disagree.

18 year old who had 12 goals 14 assists in his first full season and looks set to do even better in his second one vs bloke whose stats don't look that impressive even compared to the likes of Nathan Redmond or Deolofeu .. can't see how it's a hard choice. Sancho is so much more exciting when he gets the ball, so much better in front of goal and far better in terms of picking a final pass. Just a far more composed player despite being several years Chiesa's junior .. he has that x-factor the Italian just doesn't.

Chiesa if he fulfils his potential could be one of the best wingers around. If Sancho fulfils his, he could be a top 3 in the world player. Sancho is already well ahead of Chiesa in terms of development despite being several years younger, and the gap will only get bigger as time goes on. In his prime Chiesa might match Sancho's stats as a teenager, that's how far apart they are in terms of talent and not a single manager in world football would choose the Italian if they could sign either one of them.
 

giorno

Full Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
17,856
Supports
Real Madrid
Oh yeah. No way is Chiesa as talented as Sancho. Still a potential world class player, mind you. Should develop as a second striker/forward type imho
 

Adnan

Talent Spotter
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
21,559
Location
United Kingdom, England
Mario Gotze was superbly talented but a number of issues (including injuries) stopped him from fulfilling that talent. Messi was an incredible talent who was 1 in 2 from a very early age.

Federico Chiesa isn't better at basically anything than Sancho. I honestly can't see what player you're watching compared to me, even if we disregard stats .. so we'll basically just have to agree to disagree.

18 year old who had 12 goals 14 assists in his first full season and looks set to do even better in his second one vs bloke whose stats don't look that impressive even compared to the likes of Nathan Redmond or Deolofeu .. can't see how it's a hard choice. Sancho is so much more exciting when he gets the ball, so much better in front of goal and far better in terms of picking a final pass. Just a far more composed player despite being several years Chiesa's junior .. he has that x-factor the Italian just doesn't.

Chiesa if he fulfils his potential could be one of the best wingers around. If Sancho fulfils his, he could be a top 3 in the world player. Sancho is already well ahead of Chiesa in terms of development despite being several years younger, and the gap will only get bigger as time goes on. In his prime Chiesa might match Sancho's stats as a teenager, that's how far apart they are in terms of talent and not a single manager in world football would choose the Italian if they could sign either one of them.
Do you watch Fiorentina regularly to come to the conclusion that Chiesa is not better than Sancho at anything? Because it sounds like you haven't.

Chiesa is easily better off the ball at pressing from the front and tracking back. Do you disagree? We can agree to disagree on dribbling etc because the difference is miniscule either way.

Nathan Redmond isn't even in the same ball park talent wise in comparison to Chiesa so throwing him into your argument was silly. Chiesa is already wanted by the likes of Juventus, where as Redmond would be lucky if Leicester City showed interest in him.

The rest of your argument is your opinion. My argument from the start was that I wouldn't be surprised if Chiesa turned out to be a better player in the long run which I'm sure isn't beyond the realms of possibility. I also don't judge players on only stats either so my outlook on a players future progression isn't solely based on what the spreadsheet says.

Goetze was a superbly talented player at 18/19 but he was never a generational talent IMO. He did get injuries but that doesn't mean he couldn't have at least maintained a certain standard in his career. Van Nistelrooy suffered a horrific injury at 23 but still forged a great career. Rafael Van der Vart was considered a bigger talent than Robben and RVP and we know how that turned out. Ricardo Quaresma was also considered a bigger talent than C Ronaldo in their formative years..
 

SquishyMcSquish

New Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2018
Messages
8,198
Supports
Tottenham
Do you watch Fiorentina regularly to come to the conclusion that Chiesa is not better than Sancho at anything? Because it sounds like you haven't.

Chiesa is easily better off the ball at pressing from the front and tracking back. Do you disagree? We can agree to disagree on dribbling etc because the difference is miniscule either way.

Nathan Redmond isn't even in the same ball park talent wise in comparison to Chiesa so throwing him into your argument was silly. Chiesa is already wanted by the likes of Juventus, where as Redmond would be lucky if Leicester City showed interest in him.

The rest of your argument is your opinion. My argument from the start was that I wouldn't be surprised if Chiesa turned out to be a better player in the long run which I'm sure isn't beyond the realms of possibility. I also don't judge players on only stats either so my outlook on a players future progression isn't solely based on what the spreadsheet says.

Goetze was a superbly talented player at 18/19 but he was never a generational talent IMO. He did get injuries but that doesn't mean he couldn't have at least maintained a certain standard in his career. Van Nistelrooy suffered a horrific injury at 23 but still forged a great career. Rafael Van der Vart was considered a bigger talent than Robben and RVP and we know how that turned out. Ricardo Quaresma was also considered a bigger talent than C Ronaldo in their formative years..

I watched them a lot last season, did a lot of betting last year and a lot of the teams included Serie A sides. Admittedly only the once this season.

Better at pressing? Sure. But that's one element and one of the easiest to improve. Sancho is so much more refined in terms of his finishing, passing, composure etc .. all the elements which make a top attacking player.

I didn't say Redmond was in the same ball park, but in terms of his production on the pitch, Chiesa isn't outperforming far less talented players than him. Stats aren't everything but attacking wide men are expected to deliver in terms of goals/assists to a certain level, and 6 goals/4 assists in a season is not enough for a player to be considered a world beater, even if he clearly has talent and other assets. Chiesa seriously needs to up those numbers if he wants to be compared by a guy more than doubling his output who is years younger than him.

Chiesa is a talent, and it's no surprise than Juventus would want a talented Italian player. But Juventus would give their left nut to get Sancho and so would any club in the world, no player at that age is putting up numbers like that (and it's not like he's a poacher or something, he's incredibly fun to watch, the talent there is so clear) other than Mbappe.

Anything can happen but I see no real reason whatsoever to think Chiesa will be better. I don't even think most Italians would remotely expect that. He's got such a long way to go to even catch up with Sancho, because whilst football isn't a spreadsheet, great attackers score and create goals and right now his return is extremely mediocre for the star/main man of his team.

Gotze was a generational talent, imo. Injuries impact different players in different ways, he put on weight, he had real issues mentally by all reports, and sometimes players of that age just can't stay focused. The talent was all there with him but a few factors combined to stop him fulfilling that, with Sancho this is also possible but that's not really something we can predict either way. Van de Vaart was also an immensely talented footballer who never really fulfilled it, as was Quaresma. But with Sancho we're already seeing him deliver on that promise, he's not just potential he's double figures for goals and assists as a teenager. The boy is gold dust if he stays on this path.
 

Bepi

Full Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2016
Messages
2,071
Location
Italy
Supports
Juventus
I do not think Sancho will be that good either in the long term, to be honest. England has been producing a lot of very good players very early in their career, recently, but unable to sustain that level after they turn 23 or 24. Projections as linear increments are just wishful thinking or too simplistic.
 

SquishyMcSquish

New Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2018
Messages
8,198
Supports
Tottenham
I do not think Sancho will be that good either in the long term, to be honest. England has been producing a lot of very good players very early in their career, recently, but unable to sustain that level after they turn 23 or 24. Projections as linear increments are just wishful thinking or too simplistic.
England hasn't produced a player who is as good as Sancho is at 18 in fecking ages, and even if they had it wouldn't mean anything specifically to him.

And when an 18 year old is double figures for goals/assists in a major league, of course that means something. It means he's incredibly talented beyond his years. Does it necessarily mean he will follow a linear path of improvement year after year? No, but he wouldn't even have to up his game much from what he's doing right now to be a world class player, and he's a teenager for god sake. Clearly so much ability there and it's honestly beyond me how anybody wouldn't be able to see that when they watch him. The boy terrifies fullbacks and has end product to go with it.
 

::sonny::

Full Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
13,746
Location
Milan
I do not think Sancho will be that good either in the long term, to be honest. England has been producing a lot of very good players very early in their career, recently, but unable to sustain that level after they turn 23 or 24. Projections as linear increments are just wishful thinking or too simplistic.
Agreed 1000%
 

passing-wind

Full Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Messages
2,553
Sancho is definitely overrated among fans and for his influences. He has good numbers in the Bundesliga but how would that translate to the league. We've seen this trend occur with Kagawa and Henrik. Sancho is undoubtedly one of the most talented teenagers in world football, but being a talented teenager doesn't indefinitely correlate with transitioning into a consistent world class player. If in four years time he Is still turning heads than all the hype is warranted.
 

Infordin

Full Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2016
Messages
3,595
Supports
Barcelona
There have been a lot of Bundesliga flops in the PL recently. Mkhitaryan, Xhaka, Kawaga, Keita just to name a few.

I don’t think Sancho is the guarantee some people think he is.
 

Ekeke

Full Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
48,624
Location
Hope, We Lose
I remember he was on my list of right wingers we could sign that would be a lot cheaper than £100 million on Sancho. I was told it was a boring list. So there you go, he's a fantastic young player but he's too boring.
 

SquishyMcSquish

New Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2018
Messages
8,198
Supports
Tottenham
I remember he was on my list of right wingers we could sign that would be a lot cheaper than £100 million on Sancho. I was told it was a boring list. So there you go, he's a fantastic young player but he's too boring.
Dortmund would laugh at 100 mill for Sancho.
 

Infordin

Full Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2016
Messages
3,595
Supports
Barcelona
I remember he was on my list of right wingers we could sign that would be a lot cheaper than £100 million on Sancho. I was told it was a boring list. So there you go, he's a fantastic young player but he's too boring.
Dortmund made us pay 105m plus about 40m in add-ons for Dembele.

Sancho is English. He won’t go for a penny less than 150m
 

paraguayo

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 24, 2019
Messages
1,049
Supports
neutral
What is great about him is his character. Which is more important than people give credit for. When he is kicking the crap out of defenders and giving them hell like Suarez even when they were 0-3 up against Milan, it shows a will that will make him improve in the areas he's still not great at. I like to analyse this about young players. Who is trying to bang models on instagram, who is willing to do dirty work. Idk, I just like Chiesa more than Sancho in this aspect.
 

Bastian

Full Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2015
Messages
12,290
Pace merchant winger, not as prolific and influential as you would like him to be
When I've seen him he looks technically really good, great first touch and quick thinking. Maybe I've just only seen him at his best level, but I was under the impression that he's a stellar talent.
 

L1nk

Full Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2017
Messages
1,610

So the owner of Fiorentina is basically saying Chiesa can go. Should we be in for him? I know there was massive amounts of hype for him at one point and he was apparently a special special talent. Is he still? I haven't seen any of him so I can't comment, is he still worth having a punt on?
 

MrEleson

Full Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
873
What is great about him is his character. Which is more important than people give credit for. When he is kicking the crap out of defenders and giving them hell like Suarez even when they were 0-3 up against Milan, it shows a will that will make him improve in the areas he's still not great at. I like to analyse this about young players. Who is trying to bang models on instagram, who is willing to do dirty work. Idk, I just like Chiesa more than Sancho in this aspect.
This. He has elite level mentality which will take him far.