Fergie’s role in our current plight
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Nail, meet hammer.
Oh absolutely still agree with this. Been a shambles from the top down since.
We should have been preparing for Ferguson's exit long before it was announced. The club hasn't shown anything resembling a long term plan in about 12 years.
But he was already very old. I can’t imagine he was planning to stay much longer, irrespective of his wife’s bereavement. I think he tried to leave a good base for his successor but, mostly due to lack of funds and partially due to losing his touch in transfers, he left behind a mix of great players on their laat legs, mediocrities and unfulfilled potential.
I agree. In 2009 we were the 2nd best team in the world when Ronaldo and Tevez were here. Then we lost Ronaldo and Tevez and replaced one of the best players of all time and a world class forward with Valencia and Owen on a free. It diminished our stature and state of ambition immediately. All the while missing out on players like Robben, Sneidjer, Aguero, Silva and Hazard. Replacing world class or quality player with make do average players and being stingy in the transfer market.
Although saying that Fergie won us the league in his last season and it's been six years now. He has a little blame in leaving an imbalanced squad, but it's all beyond his responsibility now. The responsibility is with our board and imcompetent managers since then.
Pep. I think he also talked to Klopp and Ancelotti, maybe others. Moyes was a conservative choice, when the better managers weren't available. Someone who would steady the ship. A safe pair of hands.
Can anyone actually document this? Curious as I've never heard of any first hand sources myself documenting this, so to me its weird to accept this as truth without a good amount of credible sources.
Moyes himself:
“Sir Alex gave me a call and asked me to come to his house. I was expecting him to say, ‘I’m going to take one of your players’ or something else,” he said in July. “I went in and the first thing he said to me was, ‘I’m retiring.’ I said, ‘When?’ because he was never retiring, and he said, ‘Next week!’ His next words were, ‘You’re the next Manchester United manager.’ I didn’t get the chance to say yes or no. As you can imagine, the blood drained from my face. I was shocked.”
There has been a fair bit of revisionism since 2013. Pep was always going to City. That was probably the worst-kept secret in football. Woodward buggered up any chance of getting Klopp when he tried to sell him Disneyland.
His last title winning teams weren't that good. The 2013 team was carried by RVP's goals and even the team that reached CL final of 2011 was poor. Our quick exit from the next CL and subsequent elimination from the Uefa Cup was proof of it.
But it still left the opportunity for his successors to rebuild the team. Not his fault they wasted our money on mediocre/average.
But it still left the opportunity for his successors to rebuild the team. Not his fault they wasted our money on mediocre/average.
I don't like this argument. Ferguson left us the league champions, a team who had won the title by 11 points, which was also 3 points more than the following year's champions. We had an average age of 24, with both experienced winners and young talents in every position. All we needed was a couple of players, a midfielder and maybe a centre back to strengthen the spine of the team and ensure future success.
Moyes was clueless and we've lurched between daft decisions ever since, but there was nothing much wrong with the club Ferguson left behind. I'm certain had Mourinho taken over in 2013 we would have won the title again.
Cheers. Never saw those quotes before now, but feck me what a way to end up as Man Utd manager
Doesn't mean he was first choice though
So Manchester United, the reigning champions and biggest club in the country couldn't convince anyone bar David Moyes to manage us? Apparently, Mourinho was flabbergasted when news of it was made public and he said "he's never won anything." As for him being committed to return to Chelsea at the time, that's nonsense. Jose would have jumped at the chance to come here in 2013.
Whenever I heard it it felt to me he didn’t even want it. Like he knew it wouldn’t work out well and maybe that’s why it didn’tCheers. Never saw those quotes before now, but feck me what a way to end up as Man Utd manager
Mourinho had already commited to Chelsea had he not?
It's since been said by SAF himself I'm pretty sure that other managers had been approached but all had new jobs or couldn't leave their current job.
Ancelotti, Pep, Jose.
If Moyes was first choice that's a joke but I doubt (hope) that's not true
It's since been said by SAF himself I'm pretty sure that other managers had been approached but all had new jobs or couldn't leave their current job.
Ancelotti, Pep, Jose.
If Moyes was first choice that's a joke but I doubt (hope) that's not true
I'm not quite sure what was Fergie thinking when he opted for Moyes. How could he imagine that Moyes was good enough to manage one of the biggest clubs on the planet? Bizarre.
"It became apparent that Jose Mourinho had given his word to Roman Abramovich that he would return to Chelsea, and that Carlo Ancelotti would succeed him at Real Madrid. We also knew that Juergen Klopp was happy at Borussia Dortmund and would be signing a new contract. Meantime, Louis van Gaal had undertaken to lead the Dutch attempt to win the 2014 World Cup."
This was Fergie in 2015. Read into it what you will but the quote is very carefully worded.
Moyes was not first choice. Pep and Klopp were first but the latter wanted a year out and Pep had already committed to BM. Next was LVG but he wanted to see the national team through. So really we went for a manager well down the pecking order.
This is down to not having a DOF. We are paying a heavy price
Ferguson had won the league with possibly his weakest squad in 2012-13. Vidic, Lindegaard, Ferdinand, Evra, Valencia, Scholes, Giggs, Young, Fletcher, Carrick, RVP, and Rooney which equates to 12 out of a 33 man squad left behind were 28 or older. 8 of the aforementioned were 1st teamers. Only Rafael, Evans and DDG were 25 or younger.
Whoever took over faced a huge task due to the age of the squad, ability of the squad and the financial clout of Man City and to a lesser extent Chelsea.
700m has been spent since 2013 but poorly. Recruitment and the youth system are the two ways a managers acquires the tools to do the job. The flow of quality players from the YS has been virtually nonexistent.
Whoever took over faced a huge task due to the age of the squad, ability of the squad and the financial clout of Man City and to a lesser extent Chelsea.
700m has been spent since 2013 but poorly. Recruitment and the youth system are the two ways a managers acquires the tools to do the job. The flow of quality players from the YS has been virtually nonexistent.
I reckon Fergie genuinely believed he was leaving a squad in good hands.
He'd brought in Smalling and Jones, the latter especially was coveted by everyone. We had Evans in there too, so in effect three of the best young centre backs, to gradually step in for the epic Vidic-Ferdinand axis.
Van Persie had just come off his best ever season, Carrick was still a top performer, Nani and Valencia were a real threat still.
Talk of how "weak" the squad was will always irritate me a bit. They did win the league at a canter, so a couple of key additions would have been plenty to keep United as an absolute minimum top 4 even with the seismic massive managerial change.
Smalling, Jones, Keane, Zaha and Evans, Lingard, DDG were 7 good players around which the squad could have been rebuilt. Jones being the only doubt due to injuries.
In terms of the strength of the squad it was one of those years where your competitors were hamstrung (2012-13). I wouldn’t take the winning margin as confirmation that all was well with the squad.
In terms of the strength of the squad it was one of those years where your competitors were hamstrung (2012-13). I wouldn’t take the winning margin as confirmation that all was well with the squad.
SAF role in United's current woes is that he spoiled us,when you have grown up seeing United have constant success,and SAF being in charge for the majority of your life,to now seeing United in this kind of mess,then it is a bitter pill to swallow,what makes it even more frustrating is the fact that nothing has really been done to improve the issues apart from wasteing more money,United have gone from feeling like a football club to just becoming a commercial brand.
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His role in this minus the overrated team he left that had glaring deficiencies is that he hired Moyes and he stayed for over two decades and controlled everything.
He was our Scout,Manager and DOF all in one meaning once he left we pretty much had to start from the ground up as a modern day football club because all we knew for so long was him.
Staying at a club for 27 years and controlling pretty much everything is a long time and he was with us through mutiple eras and shifts in the beautiful game.
From the wage boom,having to spend a lot more money on players,greedy agents,the change in the scouting system, and the most important one is more players having more player power.
He was our Scout,Manager and DOF all in one meaning once he left we pretty much had to start from the ground up as a modern day football club because all we knew for so long was him.
Staying at a club for 27 years and controlling pretty much everything is a long time and he was with us through mutiple eras and shifts in the beautiful game.
From the wage boom,having to spend a lot more money on players,greedy agents,the change in the scouting system, and the most important one is more players having more player power.
Leave the boss alone. When He retired, He retired. We shouldn't have expected any help from him. Inputs? maybe but not controls. It's the board that were fecking clueless. Huge football club without direction and proper plans.
Some fans really cannot get over Sir Alex. As great as he was, he is now the past and the sooner people get over that, the better.Again this. After 6 years..
One of the best written posts I've seen on the caf in a while. Summarizes it all and fairly.
Absolutely yes to the part about the scouting. The twist on it is in his own book 'Managing My Life', Sir Alex commented on the poor scouting non-set up at United when he was hired but years later after his success at the helm, the scouting was again inferior.
And thanks for reminding me of something positive re David Moyes - yes, he was concerned about the scouting system but seems to have been blanked on it. What a pity United personnel didn't blank him on what they should have, instead of nixing what was the correct idea about the scouting system he inherited.
None. This thread should be burned and deleted from living memory. Sacrilege!
Random point but Mourinho would have won the league with that United team in 13/14.
For all the criticism of the 12/13 team, we were a dodgy red card away from knocking Madrid out of the Champions League. We beat City, Liverpool and Chelsea away, drew with Spurs and Arsenal. We picked up 89 points, despite basically being on holiday for the last 5 games. Yes, the squad was far from perfect but weren’t far off from the other teams in Europe at that time.
Fergie should take criticism for picking Moyes but higher levels of the club should have put a proper structure in place so we could have coped with his retirement.
The proceeding 2 years post Fergie were where the main mistakes were made. Taking 12 months to sign one of the midfielders we clearly needed, persisting with Rooney when we had Mata (and even Kagawa) to play as a number 10, wasting millions on Di Maria and an injury prone Falcao, not replacing Van Persie. Even when selling players, many left for a fraction of what they were probably worth.
For all the criticism of the 12/13 team, we were a dodgy red card away from knocking Madrid out of the Champions League. We beat City, Liverpool and Chelsea away, drew with Spurs and Arsenal. We picked up 89 points, despite basically being on holiday for the last 5 games. Yes, the squad was far from perfect but weren’t far off from the other teams in Europe at that time.
Fergie should take criticism for picking Moyes but higher levels of the club should have put a proper structure in place so we could have coped with his retirement.
The proceeding 2 years post Fergie were where the main mistakes were made. Taking 12 months to sign one of the midfielders we clearly needed, persisting with Rooney when we had Mata (and even Kagawa) to play as a number 10, wasting millions on Di Maria and an injury prone Falcao, not replacing Van Persie. Even when selling players, many left for a fraction of what they were probably worth.
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Recommending Moyes, that's it.
Edit - as someone mentioned, it shouldn't have been his decision in the first place.
5 seasons and 10 transfer windows later, we should've had a completely new squad of players. Instead, we played against Barca with 3 out of the 4 defenders who went out in the 2011 group stages.
Pretty much this.
And once it was apparent we had to invest, we did it in the most ridiculous, stupid way imaginable, wasting so much money on deadwood, then replacing it with more deadwood and now OGS have to replace half the squad.
New owners that actually care about the sport, hiring people that actually understand the sport is the only way we'll ever get back to being contenders.
Didn’t he advocate Moyes appointment? That’s the only criticism I have of him, that decision we are feeling to this day.
Unrelated to the OP's question, but what must SAF think of the current state of the club? from 1993 onwards SAF never went more than 2/3 seasons without a PL win! unbelievable relentless nature from the great man. He would have literally murdered some of these players if they were performing like this under him, no one had player power over him, Mr Untouchable, Man United's Al Capone!
Exactly.
Compare what has happened at OT with Arsenal less than a year after Wenger left.
They have actually improved under their new manager whereas many years after SAF left, we are nowhere near to even matching his achievements let alone improved.
What is it that they did that we have failed to do and yes I know people will say they appointed a good manager.
But it is the players performance I am thinking of.
He has no role, he is just enjoying his latter years.
Leave the man alone FFS.
Leave the man alone FFS.
Ferguson kept the club ticking over despite operating under the Glazers pennypinching and a pretty underwhelming set of transfers in the post-Ronaldo era.That's a testament to his qualities but I understand why some United fans might look back and wish some things had been done differently. Could he have thrown his weight around more and demanded proper investment in the squad?
In hindsight then yeah he should have left a much better team, an undeniable squad of champions ready to walk the next title regardless of who the new manager was. The club should have smoothned the transition by not having gill and Ferguson leave in the same year, hiring directors of football, setting up structure and looking for managers capable of continuing the clubs traditions/momentum. But that's all easy to say with hindsight, none of this is his fault. The club has made a thousand mistakes since fergie left and that's why we are in this position.
I think while sir Alex and gills were absolutely great,they didn't really make the best of decisions in their latter years at the helm. some of the mistakes they made are still affecting us and that's excluding Woodward's managerial merry go round.
I remember when we were dominant from 06-09 in europe,we had a great squad including the best player in the world, then come 2009-2012 and we started dismantling things,it was the beginning of our decline.
We sold ronaldo and tevez two wc players and replaced them shabishly.
Hargreaves,scholes,gigs,Ferdinand,vidic were all declining.now this wouldn't have amount to much if we had signed proper replacements but we didn't.instead we began to lose out on transfer targets.
I remember we were linked with W.Schneider as scholes replacement but nothing materialized,we were losing players to our rivals every summer.
Hazard,ozil,dimaria,sanchez,silva,y.toure we missed out on all and were being promised that welbeck,cleverly,Jones were all gonna be wordclass.we even managed to sell the only elite player that would emerge from our academy at the time in p.pogba.we kept the Nani's and the anderson's who should have been moved on a long time ago.
Personally i don't think people realized this at the time but one of the biggest moment that showcased our decline was bringing scholes out of retirement to start for us in midfiield.
Now I know people will say its been years since Fergie and gills retired but if you look at the teams ahead of us now their top players were the ones we missed out on. Chelsea (hazard),city(silva and kompany), arsenal (ozil and Ramsey)even teams like Liverpool and tottenham started their dominance with players we could have bought in bale and Suarez.
Fergie and gills are legends but the way they handled transfers and the players recruitment from 2009-2012 were pretty bad,almost visionless.
I remember when we were dominant from 06-09 in europe,we had a great squad including the best player in the world, then come 2009-2012 and we started dismantling things,it was the beginning of our decline.
We sold ronaldo and tevez two wc players and replaced them shabishly.
Hargreaves,scholes,gigs,Ferdinand,vidic were all declining.now this wouldn't have amount to much if we had signed proper replacements but we didn't.instead we began to lose out on transfer targets.
I remember we were linked with W.Schneider as scholes replacement but nothing materialized,we were losing players to our rivals every summer.
Hazard,ozil,dimaria,sanchez,silva,y.toure we missed out on all and were being promised that welbeck,cleverly,Jones were all gonna be wordclass.we even managed to sell the only elite player that would emerge from our academy at the time in p.pogba.we kept the Nani's and the anderson's who should have been moved on a long time ago.
Personally i don't think people realized this at the time but one of the biggest moment that showcased our decline was bringing scholes out of retirement to start for us in midfiield.
Now I know people will say its been years since Fergie and gills retired but if you look at the teams ahead of us now their top players were the ones we missed out on. Chelsea (hazard),city(silva and kompany), arsenal (ozil and Ramsey)even teams like Liverpool and tottenham started their dominance with players we could have bought in bale and Suarez.
Fergie and gills are legends but the way they handled transfers and the players recruitment from 2009-2012 were pretty bad,almost visionless.
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We were the premiership champions when he left.
Sure, other teams immediately bought and got stronger, but the problem was Moyes and his inability (or restraints) to buy new players, and attract them to the current champions. Had we done that things may have been different (a big 'may have' of course).
I think in reality though, since the Fergie era, what has happened since has proven beyond doubt how good a manager he was, and every year our standards/results slip, makes his look more immortal than ever.
Pep was first choice. It's in Fergie's book.
But the whole process of offering Pep the job was nothing but a poor attempt. They had diner together and Fergie hinted about it.