Fergie’s role in our current plight

[Carolina Red]

"Unfortunately, we are talking about a commercial club, not a football club. I spoke to Ferguson about this and in his last years, he also had problems with it."

- LVG

The more I look at the numbers, the more it seems LVG wasn't just talking shit here. Numbers below are from Transfermarkt so there may be wiggle room in exact sums...

Transfer spending
1997/1998: $15 million
1998/1999: $51 million
1999/2000: $9 million
2000/2001: $13 million
2001/2002: $98 million
2002/2003: $55 million
2003/2004: $64 million
2004/2005: $70 million
8 years prior to Glazers: $375 million

2005/2006: $36 million
2006/2007: $31 million
2007/2008: $117 million
2008/2009: $51 million
2009/2010: $31 million
2010/2011: $33 million
2011/2012: $71 million
2012/1013: $87 million
8 years after Glazers: $457 million

Considering the inflation in the transfer market and the two seasons where United spent almost nothing 1999-2001 because the squad was already so good, it’s crazy that the spending difference is only $82 million.

 

[EireRed_GS]

I see the scouser's ridiculous conspiracy theory has gone cold the last few weeks.... That Ole actually wasn't in charge and Fergie was really managing he team behind the scenes

 

[Sereques]

Apart from suggesting Moyes, he did nothing wrong. We change our transfer strategy after Oil money pop up by investing to the future. It didn’t work out. That is football.

What we did wrong was post Moyes, LVG and Mourinho should not have been allowed to buy/sell whoever they want. After the indecisiveness of Moyes on transfers, we should have gotten a DOF. The squad will be better off by now.

 

[Sereques]

The more I look at the numbers, the more it seems LVG wasn't just talking shit here. Numbers below are from Transfermarkt so there may be wiggle room in exact sums...

Transfer spending
1997/1998: $15 million
1998/1999: $51 million
1999/2000: $9 million
2000/2001: $13 million
2001/2002: $98 million
2002/2003: $55 million
2003/2004: $64 million
2004/2005: $70 million
8 years prior to Glazers: $375 million

2005/2006: $36 million
2006/2007: $31 million
2007/2008: $117 million
2008/2009: $51 million
2009/2010: $31 million
2010/2011: $33 million
2011/2012: $71 million
2012/1013: $87 million
8 years after Glazers: $457 million

Considering the inflation in the transfer market and the two seasons where United spent almost nothing 1999-2001 because the squad was already so good, it’s crazy that the spending difference is only $82 million.

LVG is a bitter old man. He’s only playing the narrative to get back at Manchester United.

Before Glazers, United was like Bayern to the premier league, we alone had the money, the best players seeking English football wanted to come here. We could get likes of Rio and Rooney without any serious competition.

Post Glazers, the market change. It was stupid competing with sugar daddies. The best way was to buy them young/unknown and hope they turn out well. The list is very long Jones, Smalling, Obertan etc. that project failed massively and Ferguson retired along with Gill. The academy was shambles, it was miles behind City.

That is why the money spent look like that but I know this doesn’t fit the narrative so Glazers are penny pinching feckers.

 

[Carolina Red]

LVG is a bitter old man. He’s only playing the narrative to get back at Manchester United.

Before Glazers, United was like Bayern to the premier league, we alone had the money, the best players seeking English football wanted to come here. We could get likes of Rio and Rooney without any serious competition.

Post Glazers, the market change. It was stupid competing with sugar daddies. The best way was to buy them young/unknown and hope they turn out well. The list is very long Jones, Smalling, Obertan etc. that project failed massively and Ferguson retired along with Gill. The academy was shambles, it was miles behind City.

That is why the money spent look like that but I know this doesn’t fit the narrative so Glazers are penny pinching feckers.

Shows that Ferguson wasn’t cost adverse before the takeover though, and lends credence to the belief that the “no value” statements were really a cover for “I’ve got nothing to spend”.

 

[Xaviesta]

Recommending Moyes was a big blunder. Apportioning blame in Ferguson's direction for the failure's of Moyes, van Gaal and Mourinho is unfair.

 

[Devils11]

Good point. I’ve never got the admiration people seem to have for him. If he’s to be judged by our transfer dealings, then it’s fair to consider him a complete failure from 2007 onwards.

Man utd record from 2007 to 2013:
07 Champion
08 Champion
09 Champion
10 2nd (lose by 1 pt)
11 Champion
12 2nd (lose by goal diff)
13 Champion

Not too bad for 7 seasons of transfer failing.

 

[2cents]

Man utd record from 2007 to 2013:
07 Champion
08 Champion
09 Champion
10 2nd (lose by 1 pt)
11 Champion
12 2nd (lose by goal diff)
13 Champion

Not too bad for 7 seasons of transfer failing.

Led by a core group of players signed or developed prior to 2007. Our transfers from 2007-2012 were shambolic in terms of both quality and squad balance, and also in terms of who we didn’t sign.

 

[Yorkeontop]

I actually thought about this like in the 12 hours. The big man was great at a lot of things but he seemingly just didn't have the foresight to be like "hey, the way I run this club can't be the way going forward after I'm gone". Maybe there's evidence out there to suggest he knew this and that would be an even bigger indictment because he ultimately failed in doing anything about it.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

I think Fergie defiantly has to take some of the blame, when he left we had an ageing squad, you just have to look at the amount players who retired or dropped down levels in the next couple of seasons once he left. We hadn't signed a first team Centre midfielder in over half a decade, something everyone and their mum could see was an issue and we had stopped brining youth players though. He also picked Moyes which was a disaster.

Fergie is the greatest manager of all time, the greatest servant the club has ever had, but I do think he made mistakes in his final years which have caused us problems since.

 

[Raw]

Led by a core group of players signed or developed prior to 2007. Our transfers from 2007-2012 were shambolic in terms of both quality and squad balance, and also in terms of who we didn’t sign.

Exactly. Losing Ronaldo and replacing him with Valencia (good signing but not enough to replace Ronaldo), Owen and Obertan was a huge setback.

Since we won the CL in 2008, our first team signings under Fergie were Berbatov, Valencia, Owen, Smalling, Chicharito, Jones, De Gea, Young, Kagawa and RvP. All for a total of about £150m over 5 seasons (£30m a season). These signings are mostly decent, but it wasn't enough. Only RVP, De Gea and to a certain extent Valencia turned out to be world class. Our midfield had been completely neglected and our best players were getting old.

Imagine if we had signed Hazard. Or Silva. Or Aguero. When the club is at the top, it's imperative that you take advantage of it by buying the best talents. Instead we stagnated and paid the price.

 

[theralyst]

I don't think anyone could have seen such ineptness from this club at the time of his retiring. It's actually astonishing how badly we are run (as a football club, not a business). Throughout the last 6 years we've seen numerous clubs rebuild and play great attacking football, while we continue to rot even though we're outspending the vast majority of clubs.

 

[Devils11]

Led by a core group of players signed or developed prior to 2007. Our transfers from 2007-2012 were shambolic in terms of both quality and squad balance, and also in terms of who we didn’t sign.

we signed : RVP, Kagawa, Zaha, Smalling, Jones , Young, Valencia, Rafael , Fabio , Berbatov, Nani , Anderson, Carrick, Chicharito, De Gea....

Did we complain back then who we didn't sign when we were winning stuff hmmm?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I think Fergie defiantly has to take some of the blame, when he left we had an ageing squad, you just have to look at the amount players who retired or dropped down levels in the next couple of seasons once he left.

I saw it that way too, but then realized that he was giving the new manager a clean slate to clean up the squad. There will be few hereditary players the new manager has to build around. It should have been a 2 year project to clear out the oldies and bring in new signings, but then Moyes fecked it up, and the LvG and then Mou.

 

[2cents]

we signed : RVP, Kagawa, Zaha, Smalling, Jones , Young, Valencia, Rafael , Fabio , Berbatov, Nani , Anderson, Carrick, Chicharito, De Gea....

Did we complain back then who we didn't sign when we were winning stuff hmmm?

We signed Carrick in 2006. And of that list of players, only De Gea can be judged to have successfully replaced one of the pre-2007 group. And I’d argue only RVP was absolutely crucial to any of our post-2006 titles, although Nani and Berbatov both played important roles in the 10/11 title (but had been dropped from the first XI by the end of it).

And yes, there were plenty of complaints.

 

[Tincanalley]

RoG.

 

[adexkola]

I think Fergie defiantly has to take some of the blame, when he left we had an ageing squad, you just have to look at the amount players who retired or dropped down levels in the next couple of seasons once he left. We hadn't signed a first team Centre midfielder in over half a decade, something everyone and their mum could see was an issue and we had stopped brining youth players though. He also picked Moyes which was a disaster.

Fergie is the greatest manager of all time, the greatest servant the club has ever had, but I do think he made mistakes in his final years which have caused us problems since.

He left us with a league title. It was on the club to carry on from where he left us.

I'm confused as to how Fergie gets more stick than the Glazers, Woody, or the 3 managers that we hired and fired

 

[Raw]

we signed : RVP, Kagawa, Zaha, Smalling, Jones , Young, Valencia, Rafael , Fabio , Berbatov, Nani , Anderson, Carrick, Chicharito, De Gea....

Did we complain back then who we didn't sign when we were winning stuff hmmm?

We didn't complain as much because we were winning stuff. But looking back now, it's mainly because of Fergie being an absolute genius and not because we bought well.

That being said, there were a lot of complaints about our midfield. But those complaints went away when we continued winning trophies despite the neglect. We even brought Scholes back from retirement ffs, that's how poor it was (no slight on Scholes, he was immense).

 

[spaceboyRSA]

Blaming fergie for our issues more than half a decade later reminds me of when my wife brings up arguments from years ago. Difficult argument to win even when I know she’s wrong.

Thank god she doesn’t read Internet forums.

 

[2cents]

I'm confused as to how Fergie gets more stick than the Glazers, Woody, or the 3 managers that we hired and fired

He doesn’t. Not sure where you’ve got that idea.

 

[Buster15]

Recommending Moyes was a big blunder. Apportioning blame in Ferguson's direction for the failure's of Moyes, van Gaal and Mourinho is unfair.

In hindsight that is correct. But lets not forget that most people considered that Everton had done very well or even overactived under David Moyes and had often played very well against United.

I still believe that given a fair opportunity he could have been ok but as we know the players were not giving him that chance.
Funny that.

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

This was a relevant conversation 9 years ago, where the team wasn't strengthened adequately when we were at the top of world football years prior which led to a cascade effect of decline in the team quality and ability to attract the top players at market prices.

This stopped becoming a valid argument midway into van Gaals tenure. we are now 4 managers deep with virtually unlimited funds, at this stage in time fergie could have left the greatest team in footballing history and we could still be looking at similar problems.

 

[glazed]

If SAF hadn't created chaos with that Rock of Gibraltor fiasco, I doubt we'd have been saddled with the Glazers in the first place. That's something he's never taken responsibility for.

 

[elmo]

Sure, let's blame him despite us spending nearly 500m after he left and we're still playing players that he signed.

It's clearly his fault that the clubs can't replace his signings despite spending so much money.

 

[WolfInSharp'sClothing]

I reckon he deliberately sabotaged the club from the inside just before he left, to make himself look better.

 

[soaphroniscuss]

we signed : RVP, Kagawa, Zaha, Smalling, Jones , Young, Valencia, Rafael , Fabio , Berbatov, Nani , Anderson, Carrick, Chicharito, De Gea....

Did we complain back then who we didn't sign when we were winning stuff hmmm?

It was mentioned, yes. Even on Rawk (dare I say it )

 

[Klopper76]

I thought we had moved to a different stage.

Ah an all too familiar feeling for a Liverpool fan.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We signed Carrick in 2006. And of that list of players, only De Gea can be judged to have successfully replaced one of the pre-2007 group. And I’d argue only RVP was absolutely crucial to any of our post-2006 titles, although Nani and Berbatov both played important roles in the 10/11 title (but had been dropped from the first XI by the end of it).

And yes, there were plenty of complaints.

I think we're probably being wise with hindsight. At the end of the day Fergie thought that the likes of Nani, Anderson, Kagawa, Zaha, Hernandez, Rafael, Fabio, Jones and Smalling could go on to form the basis of a really excellent team after he'd left. Almost all of them were actually very highly rated at one point or another. And not just by United fans. With solid homegrown players like Evans, Welbeck, Lingard and Cleverley to pad out the squad.

That fact that not a single one of them has turned out as good as the players we would have hoped they would replace has fecked us, big time. It's really hard to know who to blame for this. Fergie? The scouts? The Glazers? Realistically, I'd say you can share it amongst all of the above, to varying degrees.

 

[Cloudface]

At the start of the 2013\14 season our squad was this:

GK
De Gea (22)
Lindegaard (29)
CB
Ferdinand (34)
Vidic (31)
Evans (25)
Smalling (23)
Jones (21)
Keane (20)
FB
Evra (32)
Buttner (24)
Rafael (22)
Fabio (22)
CM
Giggs (39)
Carrick (31)
Fletcher (29)
Fellaini (25)
Anderson (25)
Cleverley (23)
WF/AM
Valencia (27)
Young (27)
Nani (26)
Kagawa (24)
Welbeck (22)
Zaha (20)
Lingard (20)
Januzaj (18)
ST
Van Persie (29)
Rooney (27)
Chicharito (25)

This weird little narrative that Fergie left an old decrepit squad ready to collapse seems ridiculous looking at those ages and depth. The main priority was to refurbish the midfield and see Ferdinand and Evra replaced over the next couple of years. Unfortunately Moyes didn't do anything and LvG ripped everything up and replaced them with inferior players for significantly more money. We are still paying for those three years of mismanagement rather than anything Fergie did (except give Moyes the go ahead).

 

[2cents]

I think we're probably being wise with hindsight

Absolutely, as fans we’re allowed that indulgence because we really don’t have a clue. However the people in charge live and die by these decisions, and when they don’t work out it’s on them.

Agree with the rest.

 

[WolfInSharp'sClothing]

I think we're probably being wise with hindsight. At the end of the day Fergie thought that the likes of Nani, Anderson, Kagawa, Zaha, Hernandez, Rafael, Fabio, Jones and Smalling could go on to form the basis of a really excellent team after he'd left. Almost all of them were actually very highly rated at one point or another. And not just by United fans. With solid homegrown players like Evans, Welbeck, Lingard and Cleverley to pad out the squad.

That fact that not a single one of them has turned out as good as the players we would have hoped they would replace has fecked us, big time. It's really hard to know who to blame for this. Fergie? The scouts? The Glazers? Realistically, I'd say you can share it amongst all of the above, to varying degrees.

Add to that losing key players such as Scholes, Giggs, Rio, Vidic, Evra, van Persie, Rooney and Carrick to retirement, effective retirement or a move to a different country over the same period, and no team could survive that.

 

[JEredDevil]

It is his fault that he made us win so many trophies.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

At the start of the 2013\14 season our squad was this:

GK
De Gea (22)
Lindegaard (29)
CB
Ferdinand (34)
Vidic (31)
Evans (25)
Smalling (23)
Jones (21)
Keane (20)
FB
Evra (32)
Buttner (24)
Rafael (22)
Fabio (22)
CM
Giggs (39)
Carrick (31)
Fletcher (29)
Fellaini (25)
Anderson (25)
Cleverley (23)
WF/AM
Valencia (27)
Young (27)
Nani (26)
Kagawa (24)
Welbeck (22)
Zaha (20)
Lingard (20)
Januzaj (18)
ST
Van Persie (29)
Rooney (27)
Chicharito (25)

This weird little narrative that Fergie left an old decrepit squad ready to collapse seems ridiculous looking at those ages and depth. The main priority was to refurbish the midfield and see Ferdinand and Evra replaced over the next couple of years. Unfortunately Moyes didn't do anything and LvG ripped everything up and replaced them with inferior players for significantly more money. We are still paying for those three years of mismanagement rather than anything Fergie did (except give Moyes the go ahead).

It's not all that weird a narrative when you analyse that squad properly. Players in red turned out to be clearly not good enough for the best XI of a team that wants to win the league. Players in orange were about to go on a fairly steep decline and needed replacing within the next season or two.

Which leaves us with the following players to build a team around good enough to take on Guardiola, Klopp et al.

De Gea (22)
Smalling (23)
Jones (21)
Valencia (27)
Young (27)
Nani (26)
Kagawa (24)
Zaha (20)
Chicharito (25)
Lingard (20)
Nani (26)
Kagawa (24)

You can argue the toss about some of the oranges/reds but it's abundantly clear that this squad was a hospital pass to whichever manager took them over. I don't think a single one of them was as good as the "orange" players we needed them to replace. And that's a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

He left us with a league title. It was on the club to carry on from where he left us.

I'm confused as to how Fergie gets more stick than the Glazers, Woody, or the 3 managers that we hired and fired

He doesnt get more stick he gets a tiny amount of stick compared to the rest.

People are just saying a portion of the blame has to go to Fergie, does that diminish everything Fergie achieved in his years as manager of course not. But in an honest discussion you don't just blank it out.

 

[jem]

He doesnt get more stick he gets a tiny amount of stick compared to the rest.

People are just saying a portion of the blame has to go to Fergie, does that diminish everything Fergie achieved in his years as manager of course not. But in an honest discussion you don't just blank it out.

He made a few mistakes in his final years - missing out on Hazard, not spending the Ronaldo bounty wisely, and, of course, hand-picking David Moyes. That being said, it's now firmly on Woodward and co. to get this mess sorted.

 

[lolok]

The club was completely stretched for cash flow in his final seasons.

This is the entire reason why we are where we are.

Failure to invest from 2009-14.

Bollocks. What about the investment from 2014 to present? I give you 15 good reasons (and $571 million US dollars per transfermarkt,) why the club is struggling. The reason is that Moyes, LVG and Jose decided to spend money on the likes of:

Fellaini, Mata, Rojo, Blind, Falcao, Di Maria, Darmian, Bastian, Schneiderlein, Depay, Bailly, Mkhitaryan, Lukaku, Matic and Alexis.


Failure to invest has never been the problem. The problem has been failure to invest PROPERLY!

You can't keep missing on signings, then blame lack of resources. United have just spent poorly. There are no two ways around that. United have spent more than enough the past 6 years to be competing for titles. To blame the current plight on lack of spending from 5-10 years ago is bonkers. United have spent over $1 billion US dollars on players since Fergie retired. $1 Billion! $1 Billion!! And people think the problem is lack of investment. City have only spent like $100mm more over that time period, and signed guys like Sterling, De Bruyne, Fernandinho, Sane, Jesus, Bernardo Silva, Walker, Ederson, Stones and Laporte.

You can blame alot of people-- but I'm pretty sure you can't blame SAF for the terrible signings of the past 6 years. (Comment directed at the OP, not you Minger.) I pretty much blame Moyes, LVG, Jose and Ed for these terrible signings. With some blame going to the Glazers for not moving Ed out of his current position for which he is so woefully underqualified. Actually, more blame on the Glazers, because even though they aren't football people-- they have to realize by now that Ed is borderline incompetent on all football matters. It was easy to be owners when SAF was running the show and making all the decisions, but now they need to put in the proper structure, which they haven't.

Nothing will change as long as they keep signing mediocre players and for way too much. Lets hope Ole has a better eye for talent than his predecessors.

 

[RuudTom83]

Fergie + Class of 92 carried most teams to glory, plus the odd transfer here and there of course.

Without them United are screwed and the club can not be managed like the teams of the past.

 

[SER19]

More than half of our team the other night were players Ferguson left at the club, and have survived through 4 managers seemingly for a reason, while hundreds of millions of pounds worth of signings have been moved on already.

Ferguson left this club at the highest level in the world, with endless financial capacity and potential to grow. He left a title winning squad in need of improvement with freshening up of about three good signings that summer and a further transition the year after. The catastrophe that followed him is not his fault at all.

To say Ferguson is some way responsible for our descent makes almost no sense and a well considered, credible argument is almost impossible and certainly hasn’t been made here. It’s just nonsense.

 

[soaphroniscuss]

Bollocks. What about the investment from 2014 to present? I give you 15 good reasons (and $571 million US dollars per transfermarkt,) why the club is struggling. The reason is that Moyes, LVG and Jose decided to spend money on the likes of:

Fellaini, Mata, Rojo, Blind, Falcao, Di Maria, Darmian, Bastian, Schneiderlein, Depay, Bailly, Mkhitaryan, Lukaku, Matic and Alexis.


Failure to invest has never been the problem. The problem has been failure to invest PROPERLY!

You can't keep missing on signings, then blame lack of resources. United have just spent poorly. There are no two ways around that. United have spent more than enough the past 6 years to be competing for titles. To blame the current plight on lack of spending from 5-10 years ago is bonkers. United have spent over $1 billion US dollars on players since Fergie retired. $1 Billion! $1 Billion!! And people think the problem is lack of investment. City have only spent like $100mm more over that time period, and signed guys like Sterling, De Bruyne, Fernandinho, Sane, Jesus, Bernardo Silva, Walker, Ederson, Stones and Laporte..

There is one way around that, Inflation. Another is that the club was more attractive up to 2013 than after it. And then you need time to bed new players into the team.

These combined mean that 1billion USD spent now (ceteris-paribus) is a lot less effective (even if optimally spent) than back then.

Blame QE for that.

Scholes was forced to come out of retirement, that is how bad it got.

Also this: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/fergie’s-role-in-our-current-plight.446619/page-4#post-23991169

 

[ErranMorad]

Sir Alex, imo, should have refreshed the squad a bit before he left. However, Van Gaal & Jose were both provided enough time and money to get us going again. They both also had the advantage of the previous manager's failure which lowered the expectations for them. On the top of that we are one of the most patient big clubs around. They couldn't even do the bare minimum here. They both wasted a ton of our money and left us a squad which simply isn't good enough to compete for top honors.

This shambles is on Eddie, Moyes, Van Gaal & Jose. We have spent more money in the last six years than Sir Alex did in his twenty six. Blaming him for our current state is preposterous. He couldn't have planned for a clown CEO and three terrible managers in succession.

Liverpool and Spurs have both built a squad capable to playing good football and challenging for big honors in less time and by spending a lot less (Spurs for almost nothing) but somehow Sir Alex has a role in our current plight? How does that even make sense?