Still don't understand WHY someone still think we could, or should be able to, hold on to Ronaldo.
Fergie's biggest mistake- summer 2009
- Thread starter Andycoleno9
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Where on earth has this come from? Had Hernandez not started that final the sheer bemusement would still be reverberating now. I doubt he would have made an impact off the bench either.
The treble brought us 50m cash in our coffers in prize money alone. That may look peanuts today but back in the day that was one hell of a sum. The squad was close to perfection as well. It was young, talented and hungry. All we needed was a replacement for Schmeichel, a replacement for Irwin who was growing old, and a LW cover for Giggs (Blomqvist picked a career threatening injury).
It turned out that United went on pure skint mode. We signed Bosnich on a free who was clearly not good enough. We then bought Taibi who had already proven to be a bottler at Milan. Finally we dug deep in Athletico Madrid B and Inter youth team ie Silvestre and Fortune. Silvestre in particular was a joke back then. It would be like Real buying Phil Jones from us. Things didn't improved a year after when we only signed Barthez.
Sir Alex would go on and say it was all his idea, that the squad was too good to need reinforcements and that he's got so many kids coming up that he didn't knew what to do with them.
Such attitude pissed me big time and I was very critical to Sir Alex. God knows how many posts I've written here criticising the old man. However as time went by, you start growing old and things started to unravel. People who were not board members anymore and former players would let things slide in interviews that you didn't know and would end up changing your perspective. For example did you know that during Edwards administration the CL scored low in our list of priorities? The aim was always to balance the books and become a dominate force in the EPL. The rest was all a bonus. Also Stam was sold because the club lacked cash flow and forced Sir Alex to choose over one of his stars.
Sir Alex made himself look like he was Mr Manchester United. He would state, time and time again, that nothing happens at Manchester United, without his blessing. However that was all smokescreen in a bid to avoid a club vs fans situation which could ruin his squad's morale. Sure he was a valuable and respected employee who had way more power then most managers in football. However he was still an employee who was dependent on the money people direction and instruction. Profit was always the most important thing at Manchester United.
I am sure the downsizing of the team was at the behest of the Glazers. We replaced the best player in the world with the best player at Wigan.
Last edited:
At the time they were up their. Anderson was the most sought after young player in Europe and Hargreaves was England's best player for England in 2006 and the heart beat of Bayen's team. People have short memories. In 2008 them two were amazing. Look back at some of the games. It was just shocking how both of these players declined so quickly for different reasons.
As if Bayern would sell their heartbeat for 17 million
. He was a good player but already struggling with injuries when he came here. He wasn't really all that sought after. In 2008 it was becoming obvious that Anderson wasn't the great midfield hope we thought we had bought and he needed alot of developing.It was the club’s mistake; one Ferguson had to get on with. We won the Champions League and the vast majority of the decisions we made (or, rather, did not make) thereafter were part of the slow decline to the debacle of 13/14.
I think it’s well-known by now that we weren’t great financially at the time. This was the major issue. Behind that, I think Ferguson was losing his way (something I argued at the time) and somewhat blinded by sentimentality towards the old guard. Even when we did spend, we didn’t spend particularly well, apart from De Gea and Van Persie - maybe one or two others.
We were top of the world and slowly threw it away. Ultimately, it’s difficult to look past the Glazers. Ferguson was just papering over the cracks.
In hindsight, that summer is even more hilarious (and depressing) than it was back then. Woodward wouldn’t be able to leave the house if that were to be our transfer business this (next) summer.
I think it’s well-known by now that we weren’t great financially at the time. This was the major issue. Behind that, I think Ferguson was losing his way (something I argued at the time) and somewhat blinded by sentimentality towards the old guard. Even when we did spend, we didn’t spend particularly well, apart from De Gea and Van Persie - maybe one or two others.
We were top of the world and slowly threw it away. Ultimately, it’s difficult to look past the Glazers. Ferguson was just papering over the cracks.
In hindsight, that summer is even more hilarious (and depressing) than it was back then. Woodward wouldn’t be able to leave the house if that were to be our transfer business this (next) summer.
Because he had contract for 3 (i think) more years. How Bayern kept Ribery in that exact summer? By force. I remember that back then Hoeness said "life is not a fairytale". Meaning that they don't care what player wants. He is under contract and must stay and play for them.
In those situations player sulk few weeks and that is it. After few months you give him new contract if needed, club which was interested buy another player and story is finished.
Hard to believe there are still people who are blissfully ignorant of the fact that SAF didn’t make these decisions. His hands were tied and he made do with what he was allowed to do.
Unreal.
I agree , but he wasn't making too much noises as he thought his young players would see him through.
17 million was a lot of money in those days. Bayen did everything to keep hold of him. It was a big struggle to get him. Think Fergie was after him the season after the world cup in 2006, But Bayen were having none of it.As if Bayern would sell their heartbeat for 17 million
Anderson had the potential to be whatever he wanted. He had a real purple patch in 2008 and I remember the song Utd fans were singing how he shits on Fabregas.
It's all about opinions at the end of the day. You seem not to think too much of Anderson and Hargreaves, but there is no chance we would have won the CL and PL in 2008 without those two.
SAF had made mistakes before that season, but had got away with them because we still had the main pulling power both in terms of cash and who we were. When Ronald and Tevez went, which in both cases I doubt there was little Fergie could do about either, as they both wanted away, we should have tried to replace them with similar talents. Whilst most fans thought Berbatov would be a good buy , he couldn't replace either Tevez or Ronaldo.
There were of course 'money' issues, the Glazers way of managing money and SAF's own view that there wasn't value in the market, didn't help matters. I've often thought (with of course the benefit of hindsight) that SAF might have already been thinking of hanging up his managerial boots, he been caught between a rock and a hard place with the Green and Gold fiasco, between the Glazers/Fans and ultimately Rooney/Fans, and had City (or rather Aguero) not stolen the PL title, SAF he could have gone, in some sort of glory at the end of that season. There was however, no way he was leaving like that, so he brought in RVP the following year and the rest was history.
It was the end of an era, only we were not aware of it at the time, and it was compounded by the lack of proper succession planning and so we have rumbled on through the past seven years to where we are now. Things were looking better before the enforced break, lets hope they continue in that vein.
There were of course 'money' issues, the Glazers way of managing money and SAF's own view that there wasn't value in the market, didn't help matters. I've often thought (with of course the benefit of hindsight) that SAF might have already been thinking of hanging up his managerial boots, he been caught between a rock and a hard place with the Green and Gold fiasco, between the Glazers/Fans and ultimately Rooney/Fans, and had City (or rather Aguero) not stolen the PL title, SAF he could have gone, in some sort of glory at the end of that season. There was however, no way he was leaving like that, so he brought in RVP the following year and the rest was history.
It was the end of an era, only we were not aware of it at the time, and it was compounded by the lack of proper succession planning and so we have rumbled on through the past seven years to where we are now. Things were looking better before the enforced break, lets hope they continue in that vein.
Fergie was too careful with Glazers money. In RVP transfer Fergie said that he and Wenger argued about 3 millions. (Fergie offered 22mil, Wenger wanted 25mil).
Now, was it because of Glazers or because Fergie we can't tell for sure. When you are a manager of one club for 30 years, you start to spend club's money like it is your own money.
Now, was it because of Glazers or because Fergie we can't tell for sure. When you are a manager of one club for 30 years, you start to spend club's money like it is your own money.
I don't get it.. we won PL titles by not spending million and millions.
We have spend Millions and Millions and are no where near winning the title.
If you offered me both choices, I could't care less if we won the league without spending money.
We have spend Millions and Millions and are no where near winning the title.
If you offered me both choices, I could't care less if we won the league without spending money.
I think the Ronaldo situation was difficult. I know many would have sold him a year before we did. Sir Alex disagreed and I backed Sir Alex and Ronaldo and it's a shame. I think he had a certain outlook that perhaps needed to experience something else and maybe we could have bought him back later. Maybe he learnt a lesson but it don't matter. We did well to get the money though I think we should have asked for 100 million. He was that good. We made many mistakes but then it's difficult to know with these owners. The fact we did deals for places after selling Ronaldo - was always going to mean they were being tight. We could have be bolder and made moves before selling Ronaldo but didn't. Was not happy with how it was handled at all. I think the owners were short sighted and thought it was a victory to get 80 million upfront. That worked out well. We could have handled Tevez better and I think we lost a bit of Gold dust their but we made terrible moves in the market. Heck, 80 million with Robben on loan with option to buy would have been decent but we just seemed happy to grab the money, be cheap by announcing it thus devaluing it as everyone would then up the price. But they bought into success and I think Sir Alexs hands were tied. But in regards Tevez, Sir Alex cocked it up for sure. Easy to say it but if we wanted both? I don't think we went about it well at all.
i don’t think he did think that, Josh. That was the hand he was dealt and he kept schtum in order not to rock the boat and keep his job. I really can’t believe that he would not have wanted any quality players like he always acquired before the Glazers came along.
Rooney wanted United to sign Ozil after the world cup in 2010 and that's when the rift started.
Rooney went about it wrong but he was right about Uniteds' lack of ambition.
Chicharito was brilliant but him being our best signing in that time is a joke considering United is the biggest club in the world.
Rooney went about it wrong but he was right about Uniteds' lack of ambition.
Chicharito was brilliant but him being our best signing in that time is a joke considering United is the biggest club in the world.
Oh yes, player under contract must stay. Just ask Pogba.
Secondly, Ronaldo renew his contract, got a pay rise, and got us a better deal in return. I believe there was a gentlemen agreement between Fergi and Ronaldo on his eventual departure. Without this gentlemen agreement, there wouldn't be a 3 years left.
The team that won titles until 2009 may have been based on a bunch of big money signings such as Ferdinand, Ronaldo and Rooney, but there were also shrewd low cost signings like Van Der Sar, Evra, Vidic, Park and Carrick. The period from 2009-2013 when Ronaldo had gone and Ferdinand was getting on etc. the smart low-cost signings did continue such as Valencia, Chicharito and van Persie. However, the period 2009-2013 was nowhere near as successful as the period 2006-2009 and that's because there weren't the big money signings alongside the low-cost signings you allude to. We should have continued to build another great squad with a mixture of low-cost smart buys and big money signings as we did previously but we only did the former.
We were totally outplayed by Barcelona in 2009 and the only way we were going to match their quality was to spend big and we weren't willing to do that. The club was harmed by a lack of ambition. We went into another CL final against them in 2011 with a weaker side due to lack of investment.
As for the period 2013-present we have experienced big-money flops and a complete absence of smart low-cost signings, the latter of which Ferguson was pulling off with his hands tied and in the end he was getting the best out of some real crap from the academy or on the cheap.
The fact that He made all these mistakes and still achieved what He did doesn't make sense to me.
Just because You add world class players doesn't mean you'll win the Champions League. We added peak van Persie and still We got fecked by an incompetent refereeing.
Just because You add world class players doesn't mean you'll win the Champions League. We added peak van Persie and still We got fecked by an incompetent refereeing.
Last edited:
Well, Rio, Rooney, Carrick, Nani, Anderson, Berbatov were considered big spend at that time. So we did spent millions.
The issue was obviously we lost Ronaldo & Tevez, we got big money on Ronaldo but we didn’t use the money to replace the goal scorer properly. Rooney moaned about it and he was correct, could have win more CL trophies if we use the money on transfer in 2009.
We dominated Bayern (runner up) in 2010 2nd leg by took the lead 3-0 first, until Rooney was shown limping & Rafael got red card, everything changed. Sir Alex reached final CL with 10/11 squad.
World class or top class additional from Ronaldo money surely would have make the difference to help us in those 2 seasons.
Imo, Fergie did several mistakes in summer 2009.
1) Ronaldo. Fergie has reputation as ruthless manager. Allowing best player in the world who is under long term contract to leave in his best years just because "Real is his dream" was bad decision.
Ronaldo signed a new contract with the promise of being sold with the new contract making his transfer fee higher. SAF was keeping his word. Besides, you don't keep a player who doesn't want to stay. Ronaldo served the club well and left on good terms with our thanks
2) Tevez. Not doing everything and on time to keep Tevez was mistake.
Tevez was told early on that they would negotiate a new contract at seasons end. He was fine with that. Then City got in his ear and all of a sudden he started whining. Good riddance. Any player who would start shit to go to City doesn't deserve to wear our shirt. Someone on here had posted the entire timeline of the "Tevez saga" and how it went down. I will try and find it later...
3) Not signing quality in midfield where Hargreaves was injury plagued and right back where we only had Brown was mistake.
We had Brown, O'Shea, Hargreaves, and Raphael who could all play at RB. We also had Anderson and Fletcher in the midfield and Cleverley coming through and looking promising.
4) Selling Pique season earlier was mistake
Agree...never should have sold him. But with Rio, Vidic, Brown and Evans all first teamers his chances were limited. When he played I thought he was good but never imagined he would be that good.
5) Even if he couldn't stop Tevez and Ronaldo transfers then he should have bought another top players on that positions. Not bloody Valencia and Owen.
Owen never should have came. Not a United player and certainly not fit to wear the #7. But that one moment of magic almost made it worth it. As for Valencia, I thought he was the perfect signing. When you lose a player like Ronaldo, the worst thing you can do is try to replace him. Instead, SAF changed our style of play. And it worked. In Ronaldo's final season at United we won the league on 90 points but only scored 68 goals. In our first year with Valencia we came just short of winning the league finishing a point behind Chelsea, however we scored 86 goals. Almost 20 more than the year before when we apparently had our best attack ever...
1) Ronaldo. Fergie has reputation as ruthless manager. Allowing best player in the world who is under long term contract to leave in his best years just because "Real is his dream" was bad decision.
Ronaldo signed a new contract with the promise of being sold with the new contract making his transfer fee higher. SAF was keeping his word. Besides, you don't keep a player who doesn't want to stay. Ronaldo served the club well and left on good terms with our thanks
2) Tevez. Not doing everything and on time to keep Tevez was mistake.
Tevez was told early on that they would negotiate a new contract at seasons end. He was fine with that. Then City got in his ear and all of a sudden he started whining. Good riddance. Any player who would start shit to go to City doesn't deserve to wear our shirt. Someone on here had posted the entire timeline of the "Tevez saga" and how it went down. I will try and find it later...
3) Not signing quality in midfield where Hargreaves was injury plagued and right back where we only had Brown was mistake.
We had Brown, O'Shea, Hargreaves, and Raphael who could all play at RB. We also had Anderson and Fletcher in the midfield and Cleverley coming through and looking promising.
4) Selling Pique season earlier was mistake
Agree...never should have sold him. But with Rio, Vidic, Brown and Evans all first teamers his chances were limited. When he played I thought he was good but never imagined he would be that good.
5) Even if he couldn't stop Tevez and Ronaldo transfers then he should have bought another top players on that positions. Not bloody Valencia and Owen.
Owen never should have came. Not a United player and certainly not fit to wear the #7. But that one moment of magic almost made it worth it. As for Valencia, I thought he was the perfect signing. When you lose a player like Ronaldo, the worst thing you can do is try to replace him. Instead, SAF changed our style of play. And it worked. In Ronaldo's final season at United we won the league on 90 points but only scored 68 goals. In our first year with Valencia we came just short of winning the league finishing a point behind Chelsea, however we scored 86 goals. Almost 20 more than the year before when we apparently had our best attack ever...
Agree with almost all of what you said.
Pique joining Barca was bigger than Hargreaves joining Utd, remember where he comes from. Beside, Pique got 1st team place while he had to wait for Rio retirement for a few more season. If Pique was 2-3 years junior we might be in a better position in keeping him.
I also recall Tevez and Mascherano had this 3rd party ownership which was not entirely legal, it would have been a legal nightmare
The lack of investment to service the Glazers’ debt from 2009 was the real reason we have been so shite for so long. Moyes was a disaster but he inherited a past it squad, not fit for purpose, that had only succeeded because of the genius of Fergie. As soon as he left the cracks were all too visible.
Selling Tevez was a mistake....Tevez and Rooney would have been a frightening partnership for atleast 4-5 seasons in the league..But allowing Ronaldo to go wasn’t a mistake.Ronaldo released a public statement after the 2008 CL final which basically went like this”I want to join Real Madrid this summer.I have made up my mind,now it’s for the 2 clubs to work it out”.So RoNaldo made a public statement expressing his desire to leave the club.SAF did well to convince him to stay for 1 more year...He couldn’t have held onto him longer....
As for not signing a midfielder and RB,you have to consider the fact that SAF expected Gary Neville to get back to full fitness,and in the meantime,Rafael Da silva was being blooded in as RB.And in midfield Darren Fletcher was at his peak(he would sadly get that terrible illness later in the season),and we still had Carrick,Scholes and a young Darren Gibson who was showing a lot of promise.SAF made a mistake by not strengthening the midfield in subsequent seasons,but he was right not to sign anybody in 2009.
SAF didn’t sell Pique in 2009(he was sold in 2008),but he made the right decision.Ferdinand and Vidic were at the peak of their powers and Pique was just far too raw to challenge them.Ferdinand-Vidic continued to be the main partnership for the next 3-4 seasons,and Pique obviously wasn’t going to wait for such a long time....Please he wanted to go back to his hometown,so SAF got it right again....
The signing of RVP was probably the only time Fergie thought feck it, I'm going to spend "their" money. It was the biggest signing since Berbatov.
Ronaldo wanted out. Fergie had to go to Portugal to convince him to stay another season he wasn't going to deny him his dream move any longer. It was the right move for both player and club.
He knew he had to improve the team massively that summer. No way was he allowing City to win another title on his watch plus he was probably already thinking of hanging it up in 2013 so he was desperate to go out on a title win.
If you listen to Neville's interview a few weeks ago he says Tevez started to down tools in his final season and became a problem because he was frustrated at not getting enough game time. We attempted to keep him but at that point Fergie probably wasn't convinced it was the right move so we didn't do everything we could.
Not 'probably' even. He admitted retirement was on his mind in 2012, but he stayed on after losing that title.
Hargreaves was a fantastic player who showed signs of being a dominant presence as a United midfielder for years to come. Injuries were his issue, he WAS the central midfielder the club then missed for years.As if Bayern would sell their heartbeat for 17 million
I thought Valencia was a brilliant signing. Was very impressed with him after his first season it's unfortunate he had that horrific injury in his second season. Nani had some breathtaking performances during this time as well. If he was more consistent feck knows what he could've went on to achieve. I always had a soft spot for Nani.
You're right. He was most likely going to retire after the 11/12 season but obviously City winning the title in the last seconds put a stop to that. 12/13 season was a great redemption story for us, we stormed it that year. So glad the boss went out on a title win.
Couple of notes...
1. People seem to forget that overhauling the squad by moving on first team / quality players every few seasons was Fergie's MO... and Ronaldo and Tevez out wasn't the first time he'd done something like this and had it work out (1995 Selling Ince, Kanchelkis, Hughes in one summer) 2001-2 (Stam, Sherringham - the PFA player of the year!, Yorke, Cole soon to follow) 2003 (Beckham, Veron, Barthez). Most of the time it work for the best. Now Ronaldo would have been by far the best player among those names, but he wasn't the first first teamer to have been moved on under Fergie... but both he and Tevez would be on a very short list of players that went on to have better careers after leaving United.
2. This might speak more to the point... but I have never read about United offering Ronaldo vast sums of money to stay at United. We've saw this several times at Madrid, when entering contract talks Ronaldo's team would always flutter their eyes at other clubs (mostly us) the result was Madrid giving him more money (or better image rights or something)... ie it was all a negotiation tactic, until it became too much for them and they off loaded him to Juve (incredibly for what they played for him!). We all seem to forget that when he signed for Madrid following "his dream", Real effectively tripled Ronaldo's salary... I have a dream too, it is that my employer triples my wage. Ronaldo was clearly a once in a lifetime talent (even in 2008, when he had his mini holdout), yet I've never heard of United offering him 2x or 3x his existing contract to stay at the club... instead the papers were full of stories of how United didn't give in to player power and how we "held strong and expected Ronaldo to honor his existing contract). Would he have wanted to follow his dream so quickly if United offered him 300K a week?... I'm not so sure. But I am fairly confident that United (more specifically the Glazers) never offered up such a contract.
3. Tevez was not first choice player in 2009, a touch more than a handy bit part player, but not an automatic starter by any stretch. I for one didn't see the player he would turn into over the next couple of seasons at City... but I did see the attitude issues he had while at United... and the question would have been would he have been worth it? Maybe. Clearly Rooney florished in 2009-10 as the focal point of our attack, would Tevez have gotten in the way of that? I believe any "ending" that United and Tevez were going to have was destined to be acrimonious.
4. Valencia was a good signing, very productive players in early years... pinning any issues at the time on him, is really wide of the mark. Trouble is there needed to be more signings that summer. Owen would have been useful if there had been another striker or attacking midfielder added to the mix... he was never going to challenge for a first team place, he would have always been injury cover at best.
5. We lost the league by 1 point in 2009-10 (and were knocked out of the Champions league by a dubious call vs Bayern), we then won the league in 2010-11. Lost the 11-12 league on Goal difference and won the 12-13 Pl title and again we were knocked out of the CL by another dubious call vs Real... clearly we weren't chumps... and a far cry from where we are now.
Valencia isn't the problem. We changed our style a bit to suit Valencia & the rest of our players and he provided lot of assists and dangerous for opposition defenders.
VDS
Rotation RB - Rio - Vidic - Evra
Valencia - Fletcher - Scholes/Carrick - Giggs/Nani
Rooney - Tevez
If this was our regular line up in 09/10, without a doubt we would have win the PL in that season. We only lost by 1 point and majority games we couldn't win because we couldn't score and that was also when Rooney was injured and who knows what will happen against Bayern, we could be a champion beating Milan, Bayern & Inter. I still remember at that time we were sweating when Rooney was shown limping or injured. We were relying too much heavily on him to score while Berbatov failed to live up with the expectation.
At least United should have sign a proper alternative not Michael Owen. Winning PL, CL & Carling Cup is better story than Owen won us a derby.
VDS
Rotation RB - Rio - Vidic - Evra
Valencia - Fletcher - Scholes/Carrick - Giggs/Nani
Rooney - Tevez
At least United should have sign a proper alternative not Michael Owen. Winning PL, CL & Carling Cup is better story than Owen won us a derby.
What was surprising was our reaction to losing the final in 11. We literally did little to nothing after what was nothing short of an embarrassment of a performance against Barca. Contrast and compare our reaction to that of Bayern and Madrid when they were embarrassed by Peps Barca and you'll know what I mean.
It's bad enough not resigning Tevez and sticking to a player who doesn't suit us but then not signing the likes of Falcao and Vidal who were available didn't make sense. The value argument was ridiculous due to the amount of quality players moving around Europe at reasonable prices.
It's bad enough not resigning Tevez and sticking to a player who doesn't suit us but then not signing the likes of Falcao and Vidal who were available didn't make sense. The value argument was ridiculous due to the amount of quality players moving around Europe at reasonable prices.