Florian Wirtz | Der Fußballgott | Der Fluch ist gebrochen!

Powderfinger said:
I don't think its a system issue, more about the opponent being slow and disorganized in midfield. On both of those sequences Wirtz is unchallenged, can look up to play a one two then move into a substantial pocket of space again completely unimpeded and then have a clear opportunity to hit a nice through ball. He's definitely got the quality to do that. But those situations just don't happen very often in the Premier League. You're not playing against 32 year old Mario Lemina, 34 year old Gundogan, and 5'5" Lucas Torreira in midfield and the other sides are more compact and better organized in transitions.
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Oh come on, if he joined last season he would've been playing against them :lol: You're saying Gundogan and Lemina wouldn't get into any midfield in the Premier League?

Galatasary aren't a great side, Frankfurt thumped them in the first match, but then if Wirtz did poorly against them then it's a clear indication that there are more things at play than just ability since Galatasary are definitely below his usual level.
 
2ndTouch said:
It does. You could do with some creativity in your attack. So why not consider a chance creation machine like him?

It would have been much worse this time, because of the financial strain that would have come with this transfer. Götze and Podolski didn't require us to break the Bank.
We owe Liverpool big time, for snatching up this Wonderkid before we could, and for selling us an indefinitely more useful player in Luis Diaz.
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Agree, for those sums you want Harry Kane contribution (worth every cent). Even Lucas Hernandez (pre injuries when he was a beast) still couldn't justify the sum, it's usually mad to pay that much for a defender unless he stays for 10 years, plays brilliantly and remains injury free.

But Wirtz? No. I've seen to much Bundesliga the past 25 years to view him as special as I've seen many equal or better in his position (go back and check my argument with Zehner from April).

Wirtz and Woltemade got German tax just like English players normally do, of course every club wants native players if they are good enough but the clubs shouldnt pay mad money for them. Boateng and Kimmich were very good transfers for sensible sums.

Now with the way the German NT are playing at the moment I'm not sure how many Germans actually deserve to play for Bayern. Its a conundrum, if no Germans are good enough (or affordable) Bayern are forced to do what Wengers Arsenal had to do back in the day (buy much higher quality French players for half the sum).
 
Posh Red said:
The Liverpool fans don’t know how easy they have it with the media. That’s for sure.
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To be fair it’s hard to criticise a team that won its first 6 games, two losses now and people are questioning aspects of Slots tactics.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Oh come on, if he joined last season he would've been playing against them :lol: You're saying Gundogan and Lemina wouldn't get into any midfield in the Premier League?

Galatasary aren't a great side, Frankfurt thumped them in the first match, but then if Wirtz did poorly against them then it's a clear indication that there are more things at play than just ability since Galatasary are definitely below his usual level.
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Gundogan and Lemina are washed, that's why they're in Turkey now. Its not like there are no players like them in the PL (obviously they were there last year as you point out) but teams will surround one player like this with two more energetic midfielders, not play three slow and washed guys together.

The only midfielders aged 32 or more (at start of season) to play more than 1000 minutes in the PL last year were Gundogan, KDB, Gueye, Casemiro, Eriksen, and some guy named Sam Morsy. Only Casemiro and Gueye are still in the league. Its not a league for senior citizens.
 
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Seeing oppo fans clutching at straws (like we did with many signings) is nice to see.
"Good in ball retention", "energy level", "awesome pass in 58th minute", "great ball control in 29th minute"...
 
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bosnian_red said:
Think the only manager who has been able to make players like him really click on the prem has been Pep where he gets them dominating the game and in space with calm possession. Liverpool are big on the transitions this season and a bit chaotic, fast paced, end to end and that just doesn't suit guys like Wirtz in a physical league like the prem. Not too dissimilar from Sancho from that respect. Need more explosiveness and physicality to your game to stand out.

Another point is putting him in the midfield 3 behind a very attacking from 3 and very attacking full backs was never going to be balanced, loads of people said that in the summer so no surprise.
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I'm sure Arteta can do it too but he's too obsessed with physicality.

But yeah, this is why I don't rate Slot that highly. He's a good coach but very much a De Zerbi / Iraola mould than a guy who can consistently control games, minimize the impact of variance and win games. Even a guy who embraced chaos in his initial years like Klopp had evolved and started prioritizing guys like Thiago and MacAllister towards the end.

Anyway, in terms of coaching ability, for me Pep > Klopp >> Arteta > Slot. I think Arsenal's time has finally come -- they really should win the league unless Arteta gives in to his defensive tendencies and makes poor team selection choices. Their transfer strategy also reflects that. Eze and Gyokeres are very much win now type signings vs potentially taking a punt on a guy like Sesko who has higher ceiling but much more raw.
 
I'm wondering if wirtz is a player you have to build a side around to get the best out of him. Which will not happen while Salah is still at the club.

Or it could be players like him flourish in more technical possession orientated football i.e. la liga.

I still think he was a luxury signing they didn't need this summer. Not with splashing out on 'le rat' as well.

Anyway it's not clicking but they are still top of the league. A problem most managers would gladly take.
 
From what I've seen of him in the few Liverpool games I've watched, he's working hard, trying things but something just isn't clicking. I don't know if it's a lack of quality, the physicality or he just needs time to get used to a new team/teammates.

Too early to write him off of course, let's see.
 
Ayoba said:
From what I've seen of him in the few Liverpool games I've watched, he's working hard, trying things but something just isn't clicking. I don't know if it's a lack of quality, the physicality or he just needs time to get used to a new team/teammates.

Too early to write him off of course, let's see.
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I'm absolutely in favour of writing him off as early and as long as we can
 
He’s not strong enough to keep the ball, and not quick/nimble enough to get away from defenders. He moves more than any other footballer I’ve seen though, he’ll probably have a few standout games once he gets some confidence but will he be given the time or placed in his best role as a supporting striker/10?
 
FriedClams said:
He’s not strong enough to keep the ball, and not quick/nimble enough to get away from defenders. He moves more than any other footballer I’ve seen though, he’ll probably have a few standout games once he gets some confidence but will he be given the time or placed in his best role as a supporting striker/10?
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That's probably part of their problem for now. It looks like he's on a completely different wavelength to the rest.

If there were two of him, they'd probably walk the ball into the net with all those deft touches from him that only he seems to see.
 
Teja said:
I'm sure Arteta can do it too but he's too obsessed with physicality.

But yeah, this is why I don't rate Slot that highly. He's a good coach but very much a De Zerbi / Iraola mould than a guy who can consistently control games, minimize the impact of variance and win games. Even a guy who embraced chaos in his initial years like Klopp had evolved and started prioritizing guys like Thiago and MacAllister towards the end.

Anyway, in terms of coaching ability, for me Pep > Klopp >> Arteta > Slot. I think Arsenal's time has finally come -- they really should win the league unless Arteta gives in to his defensive tendencies and makes poor team selection choices. Their transfer strategy also reflects that. Eze and Gyokeres are very much win now type signings vs potentially taking a punt on a guy like Sesko who has higher ceiling but much more raw.
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This is pretty harsh on Slot... He's come in and dominated the Prem playing great football. Last season they had way more control, this season he's gone more attacking. I don't think one way or another is superior, he's found a way to win while being easily the most exciting team in the league. Not going to give too much criticism for trying to just be more entertaining. Not sure how Arteta can go ahead of him when he's a horribly negative manager who hasn't won anything? He's done a great job, don't get me wrong, but Slot won the league right away.

Arsenal should challenge, but I just think they look top quality in the front 3. Gyokeres I don't see anything special in and their team will be entirely dependent on the set pieces which just isn't a viable way to win the league.

My general point is that Pep is a genius manager and nobody else has managed to get players like Wirtz (guys like David/Bernardo Silva) to really shine in the premier league. It's a physical league, it's fast paced, there's lots of transitions and you need to be explosive. Pep was the only manager ever to really bring a next level of control and completely eliminate that physicality aspect and get a midfield of Silva and De Bruyne in front of a holding mid to work. They're unique talents, City don't have one of them now and that's why they're a lot more physical now too. But generally if the manager isn't Pep, it's probably safer to assume that those players won't shine here.
 
RedRocket9908 said:
He has actually created more chances than any other Premier League player in all competitions this season
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While I don't think he's been as bad as most here think, chances created is just a pass that ends up in a shot, it's nonsense.

The same stat people post in Bruno's thread after a terrible performance to try excuse it.
 
It’s still very early days. But I will say that I have NEVER seen him as this generational talent. He reminds me of Mario Goetze, who I said the same thing about when he was similarly touted. A talented young player I think, but he needs perfect conditions to show his very best, and I wasn’t sure that the PL - or Liverpool specifically, was the optimal environment.

Also - perception is everything. The media is generally kind to Liverpool and their players, and perception is often more positive when your team is winning. If Wirtz had been doing exactly what the unanimous flop Pogba was doing in his first couple of seasons here - he would be labelled a huge success, in my opinion.
 
bosnian_red said:
This is pretty harsh on Slot... He's come in and dominated the Prem playing great football. Last season they had way more control, this season he's gone more attacking. I don't think one way or another is superior, he's found a way to win while being easily the most exciting team in the league. Not going to give too much criticism for trying to just be more entertaining. Not sure how Arteta can go ahead of him when he's a horribly negative manager who hasn't won anything? He's done a great job, don't get me wrong, but Slot won the league right away.

Arsenal should challenge, but I just think they look top quality in the front 3. Gyokeres I don't see anything special in and their team will be entirely dependent on the set pieces which just isn't a viable way to win the league.

My general point is that Pep is a genius manager and nobody else has managed to get players like Wirtz (guys like David/Bernardo Silva) to really shine in the premier league. It's a physical league, it's fast paced, there's lots of transitions and you need to be explosive. Pep was the only manager ever to really bring a next level of control and completely eliminate that physicality aspect and get a midfield of Silva and De Bruyne in front of a holding mid to work. They're unique talents, City don't have one of them now and that's why they're a lot more physical now too. But generally if the manager isn't Pep, it's probably safer to assume that those players won't shine here.
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Does not require to be a genius, requires for a coach to use every player in the best possible way within his team, the type of mates involved and the general idea, strategy of that particular team.

We can name lots of examples of some of the best coaches ever where they do not find the role, the tasks, the relationship with talented players in order to include them in their teams and the ideas behind those...Pep of course included.
 
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RedRocket9908 said:
He has actually created more chances than any other Premier League player in all competitions this season
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It is a terrible statistic, and can be used to paint a different picture. We have created most chances in the Premier League this season, same amount as Liverpool with 66. So does that mean Amorim's attacking football is working brilliantly? I can barely think of 10 actual chances out of that number. It's the same with Bruno and Wirtz. They have a decent amount of key passes, but Wirtz has created 0 big chances this season, and Bruno is at 1. It's a poor measurement for creativity, and don't really understand why it is so popular.
 
Bwuk said:
I reckon he’ll be back to Germany in the summer.

I don’t see it ever working out for him in the EPL.

Bold call I know but Bayern would take him in a heart beat.
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Not after signing Luis Diaz they won't. They look superb at the moment and already have to fit Musiala back into the attack.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
Seeing oppo fans clutching at straws (like we did with many signings) is nice to see.
"Good in ball retention", "energy level", "awesome pass in 58th minute", "great ball control in 29th minute"...
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Oh god I remember that first Antony season where all some went on about was his defensive work rate. There are a few whose opinions I’ll never take seriously again. :lol:
 
He surely is a good player but right now it is difficult to see what the plan with their expensive signings was. Of course it will take a few months until it clicks but similar to when we bought Mount it is not really clear where Wirtz fits in.
 
He's a rich Scousers Donny Van Der Beek. All off the ball movement and no end product.
 
Cnaiür urs Skiötha said:
He surely is a good player but right now it is difficult to see what the plan with their expensive signings was. Of course it will take a few months until it clicks but similar to when we bought Mount it is not really clear where Wirtz fits in.
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His price and hype suggests he's on the same level as a Haaland and was really expected to hit the ground running. He even had a full preseason and evidently Slot had a master plan for him that convinced him to pick them over Bayern.

So far, he's made their Nunez transfer look like a steal. At the moment, you could switch his price and Ekitike's and the latter would seem worth it.
 
TyBeech said:
Not after signing Luis Diaz they won't. They look superb at the moment and already have to fit Musiala back into the attack.
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Which is no problem at all since they are starting fecking Gnabry at the 10 spot. :lol:

(Disclaimer: I like the guy but Musiala is SO much better in that role.)

And I agree with you on Wirtz going to Bayern. No chance next summer but I also expect him to “make it” at Liverpool.
 
dinostar77 said:
He's a rich Scousers Donny Van Der Beek. All off the ball movement and no end product.
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Players like Wirtz or Mount or van der Beek (on a worse level) are about keeping the flow of the game with their quick passing, opening of spaces, intelligent movement etc.
If teams try to play more direct such players can look awful pretty fast.
 
Cnaiür urs Skiötha said:
Players like Wirtz or Mount or van der Beek (on a worse level) are about keeping the flow of the game with their quick passing, opening of spaces, intelligent movement etc.
If teams try to play more direct such players can look awful pretty fast.
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Agree. Which is why I think City under guardiola would have been the better move for him. That or either of the Spanish giants.

For me he unbalances Liverpool relentless winning machine from last year. Well it's not all his fault Konate's head is already in Madrid.

Sure slot will figure it out eventually, maybe he will need to be pushed out to the right longer term, once Salah leaves. That way he can still come inside and do his thing and frimpong would provide the width from right back.

Trying to incorporate him by changing his the midfield trio of Liverpool works is just too disruptive. A trio of Gravenberch, McAllister and Szobs works really well.

Reminds me of when we brought Veron, a stupendously good footballer, just didn't fit with how we were setup and played football. It just caused disruption and a downturn in form for players like scholes who was moved further forwards.
 
Berbasbullet said:
Not watched it but crikey this is way too premature, both are quality players and will get better.
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It's not guaranteed they will get significantly better. Neither of them are going to have the whole team built around their strengths like it was in their previous clubs. And just as many €100m + signings have been flops as have been successes, even though all of them were quality players.
 
Berbasbullet said:
Not watched it but crikey this is way too premature, both are quality players and will get better.
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It's the norm in football fandom these days (maybe it always was). Narratives are built really quickly. I am enjoying it for now, because as you say, they will probably do alright very soon, and then all of this will look a little ridiculous.
 
For those who have mentioned the lack of media coverage, the Athletic podcast "why is Wirtz struggling at Liverpool?" would surely be a counterpoint to that, right? Well, it's basically 10mn of excuses by 2 extremely defensive BL fans (journalists), the throwaway "most chances created" stat with no context whatsoever and the conclusion that "he's actually not done so bad!" They mention Carragher's point that he should be dropped and progressively integrated once the team starts flowing again to shoot it down. Followed by 25mn of more defensive points about the Bundesliga in general.

And this is from a serious media outlet. It's actually kind of hilarious.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
For those who have mentioned the lack of media coverage, the Athletic podcast "why is Wirtz struggling at Liverpool?" would surely be a counterpoint to that, right? Well, it's basically 10mn of excuses by 2 extremely defensive BL fans (journalists), the throwaway "most chances created" stat with no context whatsoever and the conclusion that "he's actually not done so bad!" They mention Carragher's point that he should be dropped and progressively integrated once the team starts flowing again to shoot it down. Followed by 25mn of more defensive points about the Bundesliga in general.

And this is from a serious media outlet. It's actually kind of hilarious.
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There are plenty of players doing well after moving from the BL to the PL, including Liverpool's striker who started most games this season...

I just don't get why we always are discussing the leagues. Wirtz is struggling, that's it. No need to waste everybody's time by talking about the leagues.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
For those who have mentioned the lack of media coverage, the Athletic podcast "why is Wirtz struggling at Liverpool?" would surely be a counterpoint to that, right? Well, it's basically 10mn of excuses by 2 extremely defensive BL fans (journalists), the throwaway "most chances created" stat with no context whatsoever and the conclusion that "he's actually not done so bad!" They mention Carragher's point that he should be dropped and progressively integrated once the team starts flowing again to shoot it down. Followed by 25mn of more defensive points about the Bundesliga in general.

And this is from a serious media outlet. It's actually kind of hilarious.
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There is the BDL and then there's a Liverpool-Sucks-League here. It's okay mate, some people can think Wirtz hasn't been that bad.

Weird trauma that because of signings have sucked and been criticized everyone else's have to be as well.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
For those who have mentioned the lack of media coverage, the Athletic podcast "why is Wirtz struggling at Liverpool?" would surely be a counterpoint to that, right? Well, it's basically 10mn of excuses by 2 extremely defensive BL fans (journalists), the throwaway "most chances created" stat with no context whatsoever and the conclusion that "he's actually not done so bad!" They mention Carragher's point that he should be dropped and progressively integrated once the team starts flowing again to shoot it down. Followed by 25mn of more defensive points about the Bundesliga in general.

And this is from a serious media outlet. It's actually kind of hilarious.
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Besides, some Youtube podcast that averages 50k views per video is a grain of sand in the desert of the wider football media wherein there very much is a self-evident difference in how players are treated based on the club they're at. If he played for United and performed like this, he would - as many of our players have - be lambasted across the media, with thinly-veiled Schadenfreude about what a failed transfer it is and a colossal waste of money by the club. You'd be able to solve the energy crisis with the heat generated from the friction of their gleeful rubbing of palms. Since it's Liverpool he's at, the media response is far more restrained and lenient. That's not some kind of theory; we've seen it again and again and again.
 
He's a fine player and has twice the talent of some "physical beasts" we have paid for.

The problem with him is the same problem Liverpool have in these early stages of the season. Their aim is pretty clear: To gradually move away from being "Salah's side" and (maybe) become Wirtz's side. The question is how to handle the transition without throwing away the whole season (and burning players).

On one hand, you can give Slot the benefit of the doubt. Both TAA & Diaz wanted to leave and had to be replaced. The former's ball carries and the latter's passing were always going to be missed. And although their plan was to upgrade on Nunez, losing Jota hurts them in the short/mid-term. Not because Isak can't deliver, but because Jota's profile could still allow them to play in the way that has been second nature to them since Firmino's days. If we add the replacement for an aging Robertson, it's just too many moving pieces at once.

Slot has also kept Gakpo on the left. I'm saying this because Wirtz had a particular role at Leverkusen. He was an attacking midfielder, operating (or starting) mostly on the left side. With Gakpo/Ekitike/Salah on the wings and Isak upfront, Liverpool are basically trying to operate with a two-man midfield. To become a midfield of three, it requires of Wirtz to cover an incredible amount of space and try to connect the midfield and the attack on his own. It also forces him to come very deep to get on the ball. Germany face similar issues sometimes.

The fact that the transition regarding Salah seems to be very abrupt doesn't help him (or Liverpool) either. The Egyptian has become close to a non-entity with the numbers suggesting that it simply can't be him regressing. No one regressed that much in such a short period. So, they need some tinkering there from Slot, because, right now, they get nothing from either of them.

And the worst thing for them is to be fooled by the wins and ignore the performances. I still believe they have the highest ceiling among the title contenders, but that counts for nothing if you can't navigate a 38-game marathon before you reach that ceiling.
 
stefan92 said:
There are plenty of players doing well after moving from the BL to the PL, including Liverpool's striker who started most games this season...

I just don't get why we always are discussing the leagues. Wirtz is struggling, that's it. No need to waste everybody's time by talking about the leagues.
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Oh the point (for me) wasn't about the leagues - I was just describing the content of that podcast that was titled about Wirtz but offered in reality very little by way of analysis of his move and current struggles. If anything, the part about the BL was the best and had some interesting points, albeit drowned in a sea of subjectivity and lack of perspective.

My point was more about the scrutiny around his performances, I don't really care about the PL vs BL nonsense except if it's to wind up Zehner.
hasanejaz88 said:
There is the BDL and then there's a Liverpool-Sucks-League here. It's okay mate, some people can think Wirtz hasn't been that bad.

Weird trauma that because of signings have sucked and been criticized everyone else's have to be as well.
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No idea what point you're making, or thinking you're making.
 
I see the Athletic are leaping to his defence now as well, the 007 thing is stupid but it’s been used for years, why is it only now when it’s a €145 million player that Liverpool have signed are they taking issue with it?

We all know why, but I would be interested to know if it’s an actual clause in the contracts of anyone who works in the media that you must be biased towards Liverpool when they are speaking about them.
 
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